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Dr. Drew
Hannah`s Harrowing Ordeal Over
Aired August 12, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Hannah Anderson rescued.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hannah is safe and that was the best outcome that we were hoping for.
PINSKY: Her accused captor killed. Did his twisted family history, his father`s sick past, and past suicide contribute to creating a monster? I`m speaking to my behavior bureau about Hannah Anderson`s mindset.
So, let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
Coming up, a convicted sex offender -- get this, Sam, gets custody of his 6-year-old daughter. How did that happen? I`m sure there`s more to that story than it appears.
But, first, Hannah Anderson rescued alive. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He might have been an outdoorsman in California, but he was not an outdoorsman in Idaho and he didn`t fit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Usually don`t run into somebody that`s wearing pajamas.
REPORTER: Who was wearing pajamas?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it looked kind of like pajama bottoms that she was wearing.
REPORTER: They said they had reason to believe that DiMaggio may have on him homemade bombs or improvised explosive devices.
REPORTER: Police believe the suspect killed the girl`s mother in his home, set it on fire.
BRETT ANDERSON, HANNAH`S FATHER: A gentleman that was a friend of ours for a long time. He`s taken everything. Hannah will come back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning, about 8:00, the blue Nissan Versa was discovered covered in brush. It was a very difficult terrain.
REPORTER: Some officers were in full tactical gear in search of James DiMaggio and Hannah Anderson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James Lee DiMaggio was shot and killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was off to the side of the trail petting gray cat.
REPORTER: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Petting a gray cat. I said what are you doing with your feet in the water? I said, don`t you know she`s fish in there? She didn`t make any comment.
We started riding away. And she says, "It looks like we`re all in trouble now."
HANNAH`S GREAT AUNT: Hannah`s going to be home tomorrow. My phone`s blowing up. I can`t even cry anymore, I`m so happy.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Sam, there`s a lot of interesting information in that footage we just looked at. For one thing, the aunt has asked us to set the record straight about the cat. That was not Hannah`s cat. (INAUDIBLE) is her cat who is at home fine. It was his cat.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Right.
PINSKY: I think there`s a lot more to be learned about Hannah`s mindset and we`re going to look at that very carefully tonight. You will not hear this anywhere else but here, where we really examine what might have been going on in her mind. I`m not sure she knew she was abducted per se.
SCHACHER: I agree with you 100 percent. I don`t think that she knew that her father and her brother -- or her mother and her brother were killed.
PINSKY: We now know that she did not. She absolutely did not. So what she thought -- what her perception of what was going on -- mind you, a man was killed and shot right next to her. That`s highly traumatic.
There`s all kinds of layers to trauma. But it`s not the way the media has been reporting it all day. We`re going to be break it down as we go through this.
Hannah was rescued in Idaho, and that is --
SCHACHER: Thank God.
PINSKY: Thank God, indeed. That is where CNN correspondent Miguel Marquez is.
Miguel, what can you tell us about Hannah tonight?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, she was taken from Idaho, from a military facility here back to San Diego, where she is in full recuperation mode and will take some time to do it. Authorities saying that she did not know of her mother and brother`s death until after all of this had happened. That is interesting, because the house where Mr. DiMaggio lives is in the middle of nowhere. He must have gone through meticulous planning to get her away from that house in order to have her isolated from all of that and then to take her away.
She is, according to her father, needs time. Has had an incredibly traumatic week, as we can all imagine. And it will take some time for her to get over that. Knowing this family as well as I do know, the idea that this young woman has to come home and face the funerals of both her mother and brother is just -- it`s more than one can bear.
PINSKY: Very rough. Very rough. You really wrote some interesting points here about the lengths to which this guy went to, pulling this whole affair off.
Thank you, Miguel.
Joining us now: Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com and Anderson Cooper show occasionally, and HLN host Lynn Berry, Lynn Berry joins us as well. And Marc Klaas, his daughter Polly was kidnapped and murdered in 1993. He is the founder of the Klaas Kids Foundation.
Hannah`s father spoke a short time ago. Mark, I want you to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: As for my daughter, the healing process will be slow. She has been through a tremendous, horrific ordeal. I am very proud of her and I love her very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Marc, can you put us in the mindset of this poor dad?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Oh, I feel for him -- can you imagine. Marc Klaas or Eiglarsh, which one?
PINSKY: Well, let`s start with Marc Klaas and then Mark Eiglarsh.
EIGLARSH: He would know better. Go ahead.
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Sure. Well, listen, this man guy has been through an incredible rollercoaster. I mean, he lost his family. He lost his wife, his son, to an ultimate betrayal by supposedly his best friend. And spent the last week concerned that his daughter might not survive this and now that she has.
I think he`s conducted himself so well throughout this entire ordeal, he`s had such dignity and such grace. I think he`s been an example to all fathers who might find themselves in a similar situation.
PINSKY: And as a bizarre twist, Mark Eiglarsh, I`ll have you comment on this, a woman has come forward to say that she had a similar experience to Hannah`s when she was 16, only hers was at the hands -- get this -- of James DiMaggio`s father in the late `80s. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pulled handcuffs out of one pocket and pulled an apple out of the other. Put the apple on the end of the shotgun. I asked him what that was for. He said it was to silence the shots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: She said James Sr., DiMaggio senior, broke into her home and threatened to kill her and her boyfriend. Mark, what do you make of all that?
EIGLARSH: Like father, like son, Drew. You know? The apple doesn`t fall far from the tree. I`m out of metaphors. But, you know, go figure. You have a screwed up father. Look what happens when you have a son who follows dad and watches dad. Look what he becomes.
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: It`s eerie and sick as well.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Is there more to this, Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes, there`s some really interesting details about Jim Sr. So, for once, he was described as a heavy meth user when he was alive. Two, this woman`s mom that we just saw the tape of, her mom had just broken up with Jim Sr. And then also, when Jim DiMaggio, Jim Jr. was shot and killed this past Saturday, that was on the 18th anniversary of his father`s suicide.
PINSKY: Yes, there`s all kinds of weird dates. Lynn, are you familiar with that?
BERRY: Yes, I am. This anniversary, 15 years to the date that DiMaggio`s father committed suicide is the day that DiMaggio is shot and killed in the wilderness. You know, It`s sick and disturbing. We don`t know if there`s a link to it. You would make an assumption that there is.
But the bigger question for this father of Hannah, talk about survival guilt. He brought this man into his family`s life for years. Survivor`s guilt is going to be so huge for him.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Bingo.
BERRY: I can`t imagine what he must be going through on top of the fact that he may or may not have even known about this past of DiMaggio`s father.
PINSKY: It was dad.
WRIGHT: Yes, I mean, Lynn --
PINSKY: Crystal, you`re trying to ring in here.
WRIGHT: Yes, I`m trying to ring, ring, ring.
No, Lynn is exactly right. I think that while the father has behaved himself very well and with great dignity, I would say, in a really tough situation, and he`s happy to be reunited with Hannah, he was part of the problem.
Let`s not get distracted from like father like son talk. Even more reason, I`m just not buying that the parents didn`t pick up on clues that Hannah felt like he was creepy. I mean, they let this guy who`s not a blood relative -- now, let`s not get distracted with calling him Uncle Jim.
Uncle Jimmy wasn`t a blood relative. He took them to gymnastic classes. He had a crush on her.
I think she sounds like she`s also been psychologically brainwashed by this guy. I almost wonder if she has some kind of -- Dr. Drew, you know better than us, this weird attachment to him, because the hikers on the trail said she wasn`t trying to get away. And if she was afraid for her life, they sure weren`t picking up on signals.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: We`re going to get to that. We`re going to get into that in more detail.
But, Lynn, what have you got to say?
BERRY: I just think that`s a dangerous road to go down. She`s a 16- year-old girl. She expressed concern to her friend that she was creeped out around Uncle Jim.
WRIGHT: I didn`t blame her, Lynn. I blamed the parents.
(CROSSTALK)
BERRY: I completely agree with you. I`m just saying cautioning people from taking that thing that she said we`re all in trouble now. And assuming that she went willingly, or that she was --
(CROSSTALK)
WRIGHT: I don`t think she went willingly.
BERRY: I`ve heard people make that argument. And I would be --
PINSKY: Let`s hear, Mark, what you got there -- Mark Eiglarsh.
EIGLARSH: People are pointing the finger at the father. There`s no evidence that he knew or should have known that this guy was going to do what he did. I don`t think that it`s appropriate, quite frankly, to be pointing the finger at the father. He did the best he could at his level of awareness at the time.
WRIGHT: At a parent --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But, Mark, you were the one that said like father like son. What crystal is saying, that this guy was his good friend, he must have had some hint about what that family was about and maybe had some hint of what`s going on.
EIGLARSH: Really?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Listen, when those people on horseback found Hannah, her reaction wasn`t "I`m the one you`re looking for, help me, I`ve been abducted." Her reaction was, "Oh no, now we`re all in trouble."
KLAAS: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
PINSKY: And this guy -- listen, Marc Klaas, if this guy was enough of a psychopath, he might have swept her into some kind of delusion that he shared with her.
WRIGHT: That`s what I see, bingo.
KLAAS: There`s no question about that. I think it`s a really good thing that he`s dead, because moving forward, he`s not going to be able to victimize her again. He`s not going to be able to cause any more trauma, and he`s not going to have a lot of bleeding hearts hanging on his every word saying he didn`t get enough hugs from his dad when he was a little kid.
PINSKY: Well said, Marc.
Thank you, panel. Got to stop.
Next up, a close friend of the Anderson family joins me to talk about Hannah`s rescue and her role in helping the teenager recover.
And later, we will hear from Hannah`s best friend. She was there when DiMaggio told her he had a crush on Hannah.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not going to say whether there was or wasn`t a relationship between Hannah and DiMaggio. We do believe she is being held against her will. Is there a possibility that she is willingly a willing participant in this? Again, it`s a possibility.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Amber Alert was on the television and I told my wife, I said that is that girl we seen on the mountain.
REPORTER: Did she seem frightened of him at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They didn`t -- they weren`t friendly. And they didn`t talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were driving home and he just said that he had a crush on her. Hannah didn`t really say anything. She kind of just was quiet after that. She was just creeped out by it.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host Samantha Schacher.
We are talking about Hannah Anderson and her rescue by the FBI over the weekend.
I`m back with my panel. Joining us now, Brian Copeland, talk show host at KGO radio in San Francisco, and author of "Not A Genuine Black Man."
And by phone, Angelina Amati. She knows the Anderson family very well. Her daughter is friends with Hannah.
Angelina, thanks for joining us.
Did Hannah know about DiMaggio Jr.`s father, that he had done almost the same thing 20 years earlier?
ANGELINA AMATI, FAMILY FRIEND (via telephone): Not that I`m aware of.
PINSKY: Do you think there`s any chance that this guy had manipulated her into believing whatever his -- you know, sort of point of view was and got her to go willingly with him?
AMATI: One hundred percent. And I`m glad you brought that up, because there`s so many acquisitions going around over social media that Hannah would partake in this. I`m getting quite frustrated. I will tell you Hannah is 100 percent the victim here. Regardless of whatever statement she made to the horseback rider, she is 100 percent a victim in this situation.
PINSKY: Angelina, 1,000 percent agree with you, but my question is, if this guy manipulated her so effectively that she believed in whatever story he was telling her that got her to go willingly.
AMATI: I believe in my heart he did.
PINSKY: Yes. What about this -- I understand there`s something else about the date, August 5th. That`s the date Hannah was apparently abducted. Something special about that date?
AMATI: I believe it had something to do with the Marilyn Monroe stories that she had wrote where she was adopted and taken to a, quote- unquote, "place of -- point of no return." And Tina was an avid Marilyn Monroe lover. Some of us believe that may have tied into it.
PINSKY: Now, my panel has some question for you, Angelina. So hang in there.
Lynn, you`ve got a question?
BERRY: Well, Angelina, I`m just wondering, what about the Andersons? Did they have any idea about DiMaggio`s past? Not just his father, but the fact that he was divorced. His ex-wife said he would play video games all night long. This ever quest, which people call so addictive, it`s called ever crack.
And she divorced him because he became so isolated from the world. He was going through foreclosure, they had financial problems. Were they concerned at all about this man`s state of mind?
AMATI: That was never really brought up. Like I said, it was a shocker to me to hear he was losing his home. I don`t really think that Tina ever dug into DiMaggio`s financial situations. That wasn`t really any of her concern.
And at that point in time, when DiMaggio was married, I didn`t know him at that point to be able to talk to the Andersons in regards to that.
PINSKY: Brian, you had a question.
BRIAN COPELAND, KGO RADIO: Yes, I did. Angelina, there has been some criticism being made of Hannah`s parents, saying that they should have known that DiMaggio would possibly do something like this, or that his relationship or feelings towards Hannah were inappropriate.
As far as you know, did he do anything that was overt, anything that was out in the open, anything that they could have seen or should have seen?
AMATI: As I said before, being a victim of sexual abuse of over 15 years, nothing ever came from Jim of being identified as any type of sexual predator. And I can guarantee you guys from the bottom of my heart, had the Andersons had any suspicion of him being any kind sexual predator or emotions like this for his daughter, they would have immediately ended the friendship and never allowed the children around DiMaggio.
PINSKY: Angelina, I want to make sure I heard what you said. Who had been a victim of sexual abuse?
AMATI: I have for 15 years. Every time I went around DiMaggio, there was never a sign -- I mean, I even had encounters with him under the influence of alcohol and being sober and there was still never sign of DiMaggio being any kind of pedophile or anything.
PINSKY: Crystal?
WRIGHT: Angelina, I want to ask you because you have been a victim of sexual abuse. And I`m so sorry to hear that, but I`m glad you`re sharing your story because it helps young women. And since you experienced such a horror, and I`m going to ask you this, and forgive me, but do you think -- you know, predators are really good at silencing young women, at threatening them. Do you think that Jim DiMaggio could have sexually abused Hannah and she`s scared to tell anybody about it?
AMATI: I`ll say prior to the incident, no, because Hannah knows right from wrong. So I would say prior to him abducting her, no.
PINSKY: Mark?
WRIGHT: I mean, yes, she knows right from wrong, but we know that predators and monsters are really good at doing awful things.
(CROSSTALK)
AMATI: Hannah had such a close relationship to her parents and to her grandparents to where if she didn`t feel comfortable to talking to one adult, there were plenty more for her to confide into as well as friends.
WRIGHT: OK.
PINSKY: Mark?
EIGLARSH: Angelina, this guy looks to us like a complete creep, but that`s because we knew him from his actions in this case. What is it about his personality, you think, that drew everybody in, that they would be so trusting of him?
AMATI: As his sister said, he was a charming guy. He would give his shirt off his back. He had the funniest personality. He was the clown of the group, so to speak. He just had that big heart feeling to him.
WRIGHT: Wow.
PINSKY: I don`t know what that is. Samantha, you have a question for Angelina.
SCHACHER: Yes.
Did his sister -- do you guys think that maybe he just snapped? I just don`t understand --
PINSKY: Sam, I`m not a big snapped person.
SCHACHER: OK. I don`t understand --
PINSKY: Especially when there`s so much evidence of grooming and detail in pulling this all thing off --
SCHACHER: Then fill me in, Dr. Drew, because I hear from everybody involved that there was no red flags. So how is that possible? That scares me.
PINSKY: People that are sociopathic can sometimes be the most entertaining people that you`ve ever met and can seem to have a warm heart.
Mark, you deal with these people all the time, just like I do. Given the right circumstance, they`ll do whatever they`ve got to do.
EIGLARSH: That`s why I don`t think we can play the blame game with these parents here. This guy was good at what he did. He had the DNA from his dad. He knew how to do what he did and get people to trust him.
PINSKY: And by the way -- let me talk to Angelina. What these guys do, they`ll sniff out people who have been victimized before, what Crystal was talking about. You might not see them as a victimizer, but they see you as a potential victim.
You want to address that, Crystal?
WRIGHT: Yes, I was going to ask Mark, too, whether or not he would let his 16-year-old daughter go across-country with a non-blood relative that`s three times her age to Hollywood. And we know that Jim, he groomed let`s go to Hollywood. Let`s go alone.
COPELAND: That`s not clear a cross-country, Crystal. They were in San Diego. That`s not clear across-country.
(CROSSTALK)
WRIGHT: OK, sorry, Brian.
That`s right. Brian would let all his girls go traipsing --
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: That`s not what I said at all and you`re not going to put words on my mouth. I didn`t say anything close to that.
PINSKY: I want to get the last word from Lynn. What are you trying to say there?
COPELAND: I most certainly did not say that.
BERRY: What I was trying to say was no parent that I know would think it was OK that their 16-year-old daughter traveled anywhere and stay in a hotel room alone in a room alone with a grown man.
PINSKY: That`s a problem.
COPELAND: There`s information I didn`t have before.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Thank you, panel.
Next up, Hannah`s grandfather and aunt join me and the behavior bureau. And the behavior bureau will also take on later Hannah`s mindset after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were driving home and he just said that he had a crush on her. We both didn`t look at each other and want to make a big deal about it. He said, don`t think I`m weird or creepy Uncle Jim. I just want you to know that if you were my age, I would date you.
She was just creeped out by it or anything. Whenever he would take her to meet or practice, she`d always want me there because she didn`t want to be alone with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. Welcome back.
Co-host Samantha Schacher.
We are talking about the rescue of Hannah Anderson reunited with her father over the weekend.
A family friend allegedly had killed the mother and brother, and then kidnapped her. Joining us: attorney and Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt; Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist; psychotherapist, Dr. Tiffanie Davis Henry; and Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal".
Now, Hannah`s maternal grandfather Chris and her aunt Andrea join us by phone.
Sit by, panel. Let`s hear what they`ve got to say.
Chris --
CHRIS, HANNAH`S GRANDFATHER (via telephone): Yes.
PINSKY: -- when and how did you learn that your granddaughter was OK?
CHRIS: I believe my daughter -- how she was OK? Well, of course, I was watching it. And everybody, all my relatives had called me and informed me they had heard about it.
PINSKY: And I know we`re looking at this retrospectively with DiMaggio`s behavior now so much a part of our consciousness. But you met him a couple of times. What was your impression of him back then, before he did this stuff?
CHRIS: Well, I had met him I think like two times, maybe two times tops. He seemed like a normal friend of their family. He didn`t seem out of place in any way, didn`t seem weird towards my granddaughter.
But of course, it`s just been a few years ago, so my granddaughter was much younger. But I knew he was a friend of Jim`s and my daughter. So --
PINSKY: I`m just thinking about how you must hate this man. He`s taken your daughter from you. He`s put your granddaughter through an ordeal. What are your thoughts and feelings now?
CHRIS: Well, I have mixed emotions. I mean, I would like to have answers of why he had to kill my daughter and grandson. Why he couldn`t have tied them up, made his get-away, called authorities and said there`s two people tied up. I don`t make sense of why he had to murder them. But I just --
PINSKY: Andrea, do you have any light to shed on this for us? You`re the aunt. Is there any more information you can give us?
I don`t think we have her there. I want to ask the panel if they have questions for Chris.
Samantha, do you have a question?
SCHACHER: I do. Were you aware of Hannah taking overnight trips with Jim? What were your thoughts of that if you were aware?
CHRIS: No, I was never aware.
SCHACHER: OK.
PINSKY: Jenny?
HUTT: Yes. So, to go on -- first of all, I`m so sorry. I cannot imagine what you`re going through. It`s just horrific. The range of emotions you must feel. But beyond that, knowing now about the overnight trips, is that something that you`re sort of scratching your head about, how that could have been?
CHRIS: Yes, although, I would never have done it. My daughter was a loving mother. I know she was overprotective. I don`t understand -- I mean, I`m trying to figure out why. But I do understand it was a friend for 20 years. She grew up with him. You know, being in the family.
And I also had a friend that passed away years ago that was older than me, but he had known all my kids since they were born, and at the same time, if he would have called me and said I want to take them to Disney, I probably wouldn`t have had any thoughts of anything going on. So I do understand that my daughter was just too loving and too trusting.
PINSKY: Chris, let me ask you a question you may not be comfortable answering. But this is the behavior bureau. We all know humans repeat the traumas of their past with an uncanny regularity.
I wonder, did anything happen to your daughter here she had been abducted or mistreated by an older man or something --
CHRIS: Oh no.
PINSKY: -- when she was a child? Nothing like that, where she was sort of -- where this guy saw her as a good potential victim?
CHRIS: No. Not at all.
PINSKY: OK. Danine --
CHRIS: She spent most of her life in San Diego. She lived her when she was very little. So -- and she grew up -- and everybody that I know that knows her will tell you how loving and caring, and she would do anything for anybody. And that was probably part of her problem, she was probably over trusting.
PINSKY: Danine.
MANETTE: A lot of attention is being paid to how much -- how many trips that Hannah took with him alone. I`m wondering, did Ethan ever take trips with him alone or did the two of them ever go together, brother and sister with him? Or was it only Hannah that was taking all these trips with him?
CHRIS: I didn`t know of any of the trips from any of them. But, you know, I thought that was the first trip that she let him take, but I`m not aware of any other ones. I wasn`t aware of --
PINSKY: Tiffanie, I`m up against the clock. I`ve got about 30 seconds, Tiffanie.
HENRY: Well, the one and only thing that I want to know is if you could please just tell us something about Christine and about Ethan that you love and that you remembering and cherish.
CHRIS: Well, my daughter, as I said, was over loving. She loved her children more than anything. She probably did give her life for them. Ethan was just -- I mean, growing up great, getting into the sports, and she kept them busy just to keep them out of trouble. And, you know, that they wouldn`t be around other people, you know, bad influences or anything.
And she was always concerned about after school projects and everything for them to do. You couldn`t find a better mother.
PINSKY: Chris, thank you for shedding some light on this for us and for joining us. I really do appreciate it. And I just -- taking a little in a situation and a time in your life when you don`t need to be bothered by the media. So, thank you very much.
CHRIS: I appreciate it. Thank you, sir.
PINSKY: Next, the "Behavior Bureau" stays with me. We`ll talk about Hannah`s mindset during this ordeal after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top the hour on "HLN After Dark," we are going to show to our in-studio jury and to you at home something you`ve never seen before. Big Josh and Little Josh, Joshua Young found not guilty. Home videos, Ryan, that`s going to be key.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Because there are bold question tonight, was justice serve for Trey Zwicker? So, we got family members joining us and our in-studio juries got a lot to think about tonight.
POLITAN: Top of the hour, don`t miss it, home videos of Big Josh and Little Josh "After Dark."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scared look on her face when I first come up the trail. We didn`t know if it was from the horses or what. But then when I turned and talked to him a little bit, I just had a gut feeling about him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They followed us from the top of the ridge. We rode down into the lake. And they followed us on foot. And she was sitting there, and I just felt like I should go over there and kind of just see if she needed help. I did want to make kind of contact with her. In retrospect, I`m glad I didn`t, because that could have turned out terribly from to all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing? They had their fish in the water. I said don`t you know there`s fish in there? Kind of joking. And then as we turned to ride away, she didn`t make any comment. We started riding away. She says looks like we`re all in trouble now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Information from those horseback riders was crucial to Hannah Anderson`s rescue. Authorities say she had no idea -- they`re telling us this now, she did not know that her mother and brother were dead.
Now, Cheryl, I want to go to you on a couple of points here. First of all, this business of Hannah saying we`re all in trouble and not sort of looking to these people and saying hey, I need help, I`ve been abducted. Is that sort of what we call a tell?
ARUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, this may have been a tell. But I think it`s important that the Anderson Family trusted this man. Dimaggio was like a big overgrown kid to them. I think they missed a lot of the things that were danger signals.
And I think personally that the reason Dimaggio was so able to control the situation and to control Hannah was that she thought she had permission to be there. She thought she had permission to be out there on another trip with him and had no idea that this was going on.
PINSKY: But again, let`s restate this. There`s no doubt Hannah, as Angelina said earlier in the show, is the victim in this thing. But Danine, I saw you shaking your head. Isn`t there still a possibility that -- either a Stockholm syndrome where she started believing what this guy was telling her about God knows what or he had so successfully groomed and manipulated her into participating him in again God knows what.
MANETTE: Dr. Drew, I don`t even think she knew she`d been kidnapped. I think this guy --
PINSKY: That`s what I think.
MANETTE: -- to all of her cheerleading practices and everything, and he was probably waiting outside for her with the cat and said hey, I`ve got somewhere fun to take you, come on, let`s go. And then, when they got up there, he probably said, you know, we`re not supposed to be camping here.
Hopefully, we don`t get in trouble. And then, you know, oh, we`re all in trouble. Me, you, and the cat. I mean, I don`t think she knew she`d been kidnapped. I think it`s horrible for her.
PINSKY: On some level, I agree. Tiffanie, you want to agree with that or disagree?
HENRY: You know, I think there`s one more, you know, scenario to consider. I think we have to consider that, perhaps, like most abusers, most victimizers, most people that perpetrate these types of crimes, they seem to have a hold on their victims and they threaten them prior to them being in the midst of other people.
So, another scenario could be that he said look, if we run up on anybody and someone asks you a question, you don`t say anything. You don`t wave your hands and say hey, I`m the one that everybody`s looking for.
PINSKY: Could have said I`m going to kill your mother, I`m going to kill your brother or something. Who knows what he`d been threatening. And Cheryl, one last thing. Cheryl, I don`t like this idea of somebody snapping. People are going oh, he`s so -- he`s so great, maybe he snapped.
When people snap psychologically, psychiatrically, they become psychotic or manic or severely depressed. They don`t groom somebody for weeks or months or years and then perpetrate a series of heinous acts.
HENRY: How is there no history, though?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Cheryl, go ahead.
ARUTT: OK. Yes. You were saying one kind of snapping, where people get psychotic. But here`s the thing. Even Freud said never underestimate the significance of the repetition compulsion. And I know that`s a lot of jargon, but here`s the thing. Unconsciously, we repeat. There are things that we identify with that we don`t even know we identified with.
And this man`s father did the same thing to a teenage girl. And he may have unconsciously identified with his father, and when he was under stress, when he was losing his house, when he was trying to stay with this family and say hey, move with me or move in with me or let me be a part of your family and they rejected him and said no, you know, he very well may have snapped. He may have been a time bomb.
(CROSSTALK)
HENRY: I think there`s a slow decompensation that`s been going on for a very long period of time because of these instances, because everything that`s happened has been over a progression of time. I think he`s a slow decompensation and as he decompensated, I think these inappropriate behaviors escalated as well, and that`s what ultimately --
PINSKY: Jenny, I`m against the clock. Fast.
HUTT: I just want to say I hope she didn`t know she was kidnapped because maybe she didn`t suffer any sexual assault. That`s my hope, that it hadn`t gotten that far. That`s it.
PINSKY: There you go. I think that`s a good wish. I think we`ll all take that as a wish we want to walk away with for this poor girl. She`s been through enough. And again, she is the victim. No matter what she experienced with this guy, it was a victimization through and through. Thank you, panel. We can talk about this for a while.
Next up, a six-year-old girl is in the center of a custody battle. She`s sent to live with her father who`s a convicted sex offender. We`re going to try to get to the bottom of that story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): This man, who pleaded no contest to one charge of lewd and lascivious acts with a child, was sentenced to six years in jail for the alleged rape of his six-year-old stepdaughter. He was just awarded sole custody of his six-year-old biological child by this judge. Nicolas Elisandro (ph) filed for custody after his ex-wife and mother of the child, Linda Knight, reportedly stopped granting him visits with the girl.
She says her daughter returned from a visit with him alleging that his 19-year-old son touched her private parts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. That six-year-old daughter is now living with her father in Bakersfield, California. Mother is in Oklahoma, allowed only one 30-minute Skype session with her daughter each week. Earlier tonight, she spoke with HLN`s Jane Velez-Mitchell. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s times when I`m talking to her on Skype and she looks really sad and she`ll put her head down. And that part is really hard because it`s like, you know, I don`t know what to say to her. One time, I told her I was going to, you know, try to get her back, and he actually cut the Skype visit off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Jenny Hutt, Crystal Wright, Lynn Berry, and Mark Eiglarsh all back. The story gets murkier when you take a good look at the mom. Sam, can you fill us in on that?
SCHACHER: Well, here`s what I know. I know it`s a complicated case, but I do know that the mom has -- I guess the child has missed 20-something days of school. I know that the mom has been neglectful of giving the child, administering the child her medicine.
And that the mom has been unemployed and bouncing back and forth from house to house. The daughter doesn`t have her own bed to sleep in.
PINSKY: All right. Well, listen. It`s murky and the mom had been homeless. And Mark, I`m going to have you clarify this for me in a second, but HLN has received a statement from the attorney for Nicolas Elisandro (ph).
It reads in part "I would caution all who hear this matter not to pass judgment unless they`ve reviewed all the evidence presented to the court. The ruling was in the best interest of the child. He is providing a stable home."
And Mark, I`ve even heard that dad, although he`s a convicted sex offender, it was part of a plea bargain, he still denies this didn`t happen. What do you say?
EIGLARSH: I got plenty of clients who plead guilty or no contest and they complain that they`re innocent. Sometimes, that happens. Oftentimes, that`s not the case. You know, he`s not going to be able to live within 2,000 feet of a school, although, he still can physically go to a school and a park if he`d like.
BERRY: Can I just jump in here for a second? Because the father, yes, he claims that he didn`t do it. He actually says the stepdaughter that he was accused of molesting will testify that she was not molested, and that this was -- why is he not fighting to have his sex offender status revoked if he isn`t a sex offender?
EIGLARSH: It doesn`t work like that. Hold on. It doesn`t work that way. He`s already pled. So, you can`t go back and call a do-over.
PINSKY: Crystal.
WRIGHT: To Lynn`s point, though, not only was he accused of raping a six-year-old, let`s go back to Linda Knight, the daughter that he now has custody of. Linda Knight in her deposition said that her daughter, a six years old, masturbates and wets the bed.
Now, guys, wetting the bed and masturbation -- when a six-year-old masturbates, that`s trouble. There`s trouble in the household. That child, I would say that`s a sign of some kind of abuse. Now, what I would --
PINSKY: Not necessarily. Everyone`s got to hold their thoughts. Hold their thoughts. We`ve got to take a break. I will tell you what happens five and six-year-old kids will masturbate as a way of self- soothing when there`s chaos in their home. It doesn`t have to be sexual abuse.
We`ll be right back. More on this topic.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher and my panel. Before the break, Crystal brought up the issue of this young girl mis -- not misbheving, having symptomologies that suggested she lived in chaos. The court proceedings suggest that there were some problems with the mom in terms of being able to socially give the child an environment that was appropriate for her safety, psychological and medical well-being.
Mark, do you still see problems with this case? I guess, this guy, the dad that now has a child, he can`t even drive the kid to school because he`s a sex offender, he can`t take her to the park. He`s a sex offender. How do we reconcile all these issues?
EIGLARSH: Well, no, no, no. He can take the child to the park. He can take the child to school. He just can`t live within 2,000 feet of a school is my understanding of the law.
PINSKY: How do you reconcile, Mark, this situation where the mom seems to be having a difficulty raising the child, the dad was maybe convicted, or did something bad --
WRIGHT: Foster home.
EIGLARSH: There`s no maybe. There`s no maybe. Let`s make this clear. Hold on. He was convicted. He entered a plea. He had a choice of either going to trial or taking a plea. He chose to take a plea. He is now convicted of that offense.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: -- a factual finding that there was sufficient evidence to take his plea, that he wasn`t necessarily innocent. The judge found that there was enough.
BERRY: But don`t you then have to live with the consequences of taking a plea?
EIGLARSH: Of course.
BERRY: You accept the plea that you are a sex offender. Therefore, sex offenders should not have custody of children. That should be a blanket rule.
WRIGHT: Yes. Let`s talk about this judge. This judge sounds like he`s in la la land.
PINSKY: Jenny, what do you got for me?
HUTT: Listen, obviously things had to be really, really, really bad with the mother in order for the judge to grant custody to a convicted sex offender. Obviously. Now, are any of us comfortable with that? Of course not. But we don`t really know the details have yet to fully emerge how bad it was in the mother`s household.
EIGLARSH: Can I ask something?
HUTT: -- elsewhere? A 100 percent. It`s creepy and disgusting.
PINSKY: Please, Mark.
EIGLARSH: What about option c? I just thought of it. "A" is the mom and she wasn`t suitable. "BERMAN" is him. Forget about it. "C" is they`re both not fit at least temporarily.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Foster care then? Why did they not consider -- that`s what makes me think there`s more to this story. Crystal, I think you`re sort of going down that path. There`s much more here than meets the eye.
WRIGHT: I mean, we talked about a case last week with -- why am I having a total blank on the kid that --
SCHACHER: Joshua Young.
(CROSSTALK)
WRIGHT: OK. Little Josh. Remember, he was in foster home because his mother died of a drug overdose. His father was a convicted felon. Judges have options, to Mark`s point. I mean, foster care -- seems like this little girl would be better off.
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: -- if the judge feels that conviction was a wrongful conviction, even though we think it was not. There is that possibility that --
WRIGHT: I`m not buying it, like Mark said.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: I was under the impression that the victim recanted -- not recanted, but said that she indeed was not --
PINSKY: That`s what Lynn told us. That`s what exactly Lynn told us. We`re going to have to stop it there, though. Thankfully, we`re not in a position to adjudicate on this case. "Last Call" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call." It`s going to Sam. Sam, what do you want to ask?
SCHACHER: I want to go back to Hannah Anderson, because here`s the thing. There is a lack of warning signs. Believe me, I get that these overnight trips are red flags, but is there any other type of criminal history associated with the man?
PINSKY: Well, that`s a great question. Lynn is still with us. Lynn, do you have any data that can help us sort of --
(CROSSTALK)
BERRY: There`s no concrete data, that you can`t get into the mind of this guy. He didn`t have a long rap sheet. He had a, you know, misdemeanor back in 1995 that he was fleeing from police. What I go to is this ever quest. He apparently played this all day and all night. It`s an escape from reality.
And Dr. Drew, this is your wheelhouse. These people that play video games all night long, all day long, they separate themselves, they find an alternate reality. And if they already have a mental illness, that`s a problem.
PINSKY: Right. In my experience, more often than not, those are people that -- the people want to call it video game addiction, but usually, it`s a way of managing really significant psychiatric symptomology. It`s a way of avoiding those symptoms. And we know he had a crazy dad. So, he`d probably traumatized. And this may have been, Samantha, an answer to your question, but just been a perfect storm where the opportunity and the right circumstance.
He became obsessed. He became effectively a stalker of a teenager, which does happen. Thank you, guys. Thank you, Sam. Thank you to my panelist. Thank you for watching. We`ll, of course, see you next time. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.
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