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Daring Rescue of Hannah Anderson; U.S. Marshal Who Found Her Speaks Out; Sinkhole in Florida; The Science Behind Near Death Experiences; Jellyfish Invade Florida Beaches; NYPD Stop & Frisk Tactics Unconstitutional

Aired August 13, 2013 - 08:00   ET



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hannah's back in San Diego. She's with family members. She's doing as well as can be expected.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Daring rescue. Hannah Anderson back at home this morning. What comes next for her? And the U.S. Marshal who spotted her and her captor from above speaking out this morning with new details on the rescue.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Close call. The dramatic video of the Florida sinkhole as it swallows part a resort. New information on what caused the terrifying collapse.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Stunning turn in the custody battle over Baby Veronica. Her adopted parents granted custody, her biological father refused to give her up. Now he's in jail. But where is Veronica?

CUOMO: Your NEW DAY continues right now.

ANNOUNCER: What you need to know --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to go through this roller coaster of pain, but eventually it will pass.

ANNOUNCER: What you just have to see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you stuck? I saw you. Let me give you a full little reverse here.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Kate Bolduan, and Michaela Pereira.


CUOMO: He's wearing it to show what was happening on his day. We're talking about that clip with the person in the wheelchair. It's part of our good stuff today. People wearing go pros all the time. It's amazing what they'll capture; you'll see for yourself.

As I say, good morning to you. Put the coffee down, take a listen, or pick it back up, whatever you want. It is Tuesday, August 13th, 8:00 in the East, and I am Kate Bolduan. I had to say that, because I stole her read.

BOLDUAN: That's what happens. And I'm Chris Cuomo, or Kate Bolduan, we're here with news anchor Michaela Pereira.

PEREIRA: I'm going to Go Pro (ph) my hair and watch you two.


CUOMO: You've got some good hair.

PEREIRA: Thank you very much.

BOLDUAN: I was wondering where we were going with that, and it was a compliment.

All right, coming up this hour, New York's controversial Stop and Frisk policy. the mayor and police commissioner says it keeps New Yorkers safe, but the judge says the way they do it is unconstitutional. Legal or not, Stop and Frisk affects cities nationwide and divides people, and we will debate it. "CROSSFIRE" co- hosts Newt Gingrich and Columbia professor Marc Lamont Hill will be joining us live.

CUOMO: When people said they had a near-death experience, they might not have imagined it. Because that's what the pushback is, oh it's all in your head, literally. But what happens to your brain when your heart stops? There's science behind it. We're going to tell you about a fascinating new study.

PEREIRA: We have got a fella to introduce you to. He's an Ivy League-educated doctor with his own practice. You'd think it was easy for him to find a date, right? Well, wrong. Apparently you're going to meet the man who's asking his friends to set him up with a very specific type of woman in exchange for free surgery. Wait till you hear what he expects from his date. Oh, we will get to that.

BOLDUAN: But first, Hannah Anderson back home this morning in San Diego as she begins the slow healing process after a horrific ordeal. New details are now emerging about the circumstances surrounding the 16-year-old's kidnapping and her rescue in the backwoods of Idaho.

CNN's Miguel Marquez live in Boise, Idaho, for us this morning. Good morning, Miguel.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning there, Kate. Those who know Hannah say she is absolutely shocked by the amount of attention that her kidnapping has garnered, that starting to smile a bit, talking about the experience just a little bit, as well. Probably most importantly, she's helping in the preparations for the funerals for her mom and 8-year-old brother Ethan.


MARQUEZ (voice-over): More than a week after being kidnapped by a close family friend, Hannah Anderson, is waking up this morning released from her captor. The 16-year-old teen is reuniting with her father.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am very proud of her and I love her very much.

MARQUEZ: Her horrible ordeal far from over. Hannah is just learning that her mother and 8-year-old brother Ethan were murdered, their bodies found in the burning home of the abductor James Lee DiMaggio east of San Diego on August 4th.

BRETT ANDERSON, HANNAH ANDERSON'S FATHER: The healing process will be slow. She has been through a tremendous, horrific ordeal.

MARQUEZ: DiMaggio is believed to have then kidnapped Hannah leading to a highly publicized amber alert, the international manhunt stretching up and down the west coast. She was found 1,000 miles from DiMaggio's home. Authorities say he had a rifle when the FBI reached this remote location in Idaho where he held Hannah under duress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only way to access it is by helicopter.

MARQUEZ: DiMaggio fired at least one shot at the FBI. Hannah is in close proximity to her captor when he was gunned down by the FBI.

BILL GORE, SAN DIEGO COUNTY SHERIFF: She is a victim in every sense of the word in this horrific crime.

MARQUEZ: The major break in the case came last Wednesday when a group of horseback riders encountered the pair, later recognizing the teen from an amber alert.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a scared look on her face when I first came up the trail.

MARQUEZ: Many details remain unclear, including DiMaggio's motive and the circumstances under which Hannah traveled with DiMaggio. Now that Hannah is back, her father says the family needs to heal and grieve.


MAQUEZ (on camera): Now the San Diego sheriff also saying, and it's a quote, that she was under extreme, extreme duress during this ordeal, seeming to try to squelch the rumors out there that she was somehow complicit in her own kidnapping. The last thing that the law enforcement want and sort of the family wants is for this young victim to be victimized anymore, Kate?

BOLDUAN: Yes, and now the long road of recovery ahead. Miguel Marquez, thank you so much, Miguel. for the update.

Now the latest details from a U.S. marshal who first spotted Hannah Anderson in the Idaho wilderness. His phone call led the FBI to the tent where Hannah's captor, James DiMaggio, had them in hiding. Here's Steve Jurman story of the initial sighting from a search and rescue helicopter in his own words.


STEVE JURMAN, U.S. MARSHAL: The San Diego Fugitive Task Force has been working this case ever since the fire in Boulevard. We went to the lake where she was last seen by the horseback riders. It's called Morehead Lake. So we circled the lake a few times and didn't see anything. And then all of a sudden there was a little glimmer of blue that we saw in the trees; it was about 100 yards off the lake.

We circled a few more times and focused in on that area and then we were able to see that it was a blue tent. We were actually able to verify that it was a male and a female with blonde hair and a small animal, so at that point we knew we had something extremely valuable.

Well, there were several things going through my mind. Number one, we were definitely not going to take our eyes off of that tent until we had it covered by ground units and make sure that we determine for sure if it was or was not them. Because they were spotted so quickly, everybody was kind of taken off guard. We really were trenching ourselves in for a long, drawn-out search.

I was in the command post at the time listening live when we got confirmation that she was OK. It was like a weight lifted off of everybody's shoulders and a job well done. In a high-profile case like this where you realize how imminent danger was for her and you realize what you did, it's a good feeling. It makes my job worthwhile.


CUOMO: Just amazing, all the things that came together to make this rescue possible. What were the chances? Luckily it came out this way.

We're going to go to Florida now. It's being called a miracle no one was hurt. A massive sinkhole nearly swallowed a crowded hotel outside Disney World. Witnesses say the walls started buckling and windows shattered; dozens had to be evacuated. Now investigators are scrambling to find out what triggered the collapse.

CNN's Martin Savidge is in Clermont. He joins us with the latest. Good morning, Martin.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDNET: Good morning, Chris. We had to bring you closer to take a look at this sinkhole and the destruction it caused. There it is. I got to tell you, if we got any closer, we'd fall in. And the more you get closer to it, the more you realize how amazing it is nobody was not only killed; they weren't even injured. Take a look.


SAVIDGE (voice-over): A dramatic moment caught on tape, as a condominium at the Summer Bay Resort collapsed into a sinkhole. Not long before it had been packed with vacationers. Ben Warrick of Des Moines, Iowa, started rolling at just the right time. BEN WARRICK, WITNESS: I turned to film the guys talking to the fire department. I heard a crack and I quickly switched over and the roof came down.

SAVIDGE: For more than 100 guests here to see the land of the magic kingdom, suddenly they were gripped in terror in the middle of the night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was the most surreal experience. I never could imagine in my wildest dreams.

SAVIDGE: Those watching nearby couldn't believe their eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought it was crazy. How is that happening?

SAVIDGE: Miraculously no one was killed, not even injured, some crediting a security guard who rushed to spread the alarm. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the security guards run up and was evacuating people, barging into their rooms. One woman was sitting into the tub and the tub just levitated.

SAVIDGE: In Florida most sinkholes happen when the state's acidic water table eats away at the limestone rock. The resort has hired a private engineering firm to look for more possible holes. Meanwhile, Warrick is looking for a little less exciting. All this happened just hours after he arrived for a one week getaway.

WARRICK: We're fine. Power is back, got air conditioning and hopefully still going to have a great vacation.


SAVIDGE (on camera): That security guard is being called a hero. He's identified as Richard Shandley (ph). He'd only been on the job here for two months and only been working that night for five minutes before all of this started happening.

Meanwhile, the engineering company expects to have a report in about a day or maybe two days on just how big this hole may get. Chris?

CUOMO: All right, Martin, thank you very much. The miracle really there is that more people weren't hurt.

BOLDUAN: I know.

CUOMO: When you look at the pictures.

BOLDUAN: And it's just the earth just sucking up the house. It's just amazing every time I see it, I just can't believe it's actually happening.

All right, a lot of news developing at this hour so let's get straight to Michaela for the latest.

PEREIRA: All right. Good morning, everyone. Tragedy at Turner Field in Atlanta. A fan fell some 65 feet to his death from an upper deck platform to a parking lot below. This happened during a rain delay that pushed back the start of last night's Braves-Phillies game. Police are now investigating, but they say the fall appears to be accidental.

A massive wildfire burning in Idaho only about 5 percent contained this morning and already more than 90,000 acres have burned. The fire's located near the town of Pine in Southwest Idaho. Residents of the mountainous region have been urged to evacuate their homes, although some are refusing. Fire officials are expecting winds to pick up today, obviously a concern.

Boston mob boss James "Whitey" Bulger found guilty of committing 11 murders and dozens of other crimes. His lawyers say they'll appeal. Bulger convicted on 31 of 32 counts against him from his days as the notorious leader of the Winter Hill gang. He spent 16 years on the run before he was arrested in Santa Monica, California, back in 2011. The 83-year-old mobster faces life in prison when he is sentenced in November.

North Carolina governor Patrick McCrory signing a controversial new voter I.D. bill into law. It imposes strict photo I.D. requirements and rolls back early voting. The governor says the new law is badly need, even though North Carolina has referred two cases of alleged voter fraud to prosecutors since 2004. A coalition of civil rights groups has already filed a lawsuit in federal court challenging the measure.

Interesting study here. Scientists studying the causes of autism have discovered a new potential pattern. Research has associated the condition with induced or augmented labor, but authors of the study are quick to point out that they have not proven that induced labor causes autism in children. Their research only shows that there is an association, although they cannot explain the connection. As always, pregnant women are urged to raise any concerns they have with their doctor.

Finally, a big catch. This is for you, Chris. Off the beach near Corpus Christi, Texas. Why do I talk like I'm a Texan when I talk about this story? A huge tiger shark measuring 11 feet 4 inches. It took Wayne Reimer (ph) and five of his fishermen friends nearly four hours to reel the big guy in. Experts say it's rare to see a shark this size so close to shore in the Corpus Christi area. What happened to the shark? Well, it was tagged and released back into the ocean for future study.

CUOMO: Best part of the story.

BOLDUAN: There's the good news.

CUOMO: You're not going to eat it.


CUOMO: And that's what the sport of it is all about.

BOLDUAN: And shark populations are being decimated. PEREIRA: Exactly. Toss it back in and let it live a long and shark happy life.

BOLDUAN: I love shark happy lives.

CUOMO: Try not to stand half naked within a foot of it when it's thrashing around with its mouth open..

PEREIRA: Or fully clothed really.

BOLDUAN: Also a good point.

CUOMO: They were half naked.

BOLDUAN: All right. Here's a really interesting one that's got us talking this morning. There's science now, new science to report people who report having a near-death experience. You talk about it, you might even joke about it, but there might be science behind it. University of Michigan researchers say an electrical surge in the brain after cardiac arrest could explain the visions described by people who survived a brush with death.

Dr. Tara Narula, a cardiologist here in New York, is here to I guess try to shed some light on this study. What did researchers find? I mean, this involved using testing of lab rats. How did they make that jump from lab rats to humans?

DR. TARA NARULA, CARDIOLOGY, LENOX HILL HOSPITAL NORTH SHORE: It is a leap, first and foremost, because it was a study on rats. University of Michigan researchers took nine rats and basically caused cardiac arrest, or death of the heart, and they looked at what happens to the brain electrically in that setting. And you would think the brain would actually have no activity when it's not receiving oxygen or blood supply, but they found the opposite, that there was a surge of electrical activity in the brain. And it wasn't just random, it was in a synchronized way.

BOLDUAN: That's interesting.

CUOMO: Is there reason to believe, or what is the reason to believe, that you can transfer that understanding from the rat to the human?

NARULA: So as I said, it's a leap. We know that in a lot of research we start off in animals and then we ultimately translate into humans. And there have been case reports in humans of similar findings on these electrical studies of the brain. But we really need more research on humans before we can really say, though, what we saw in the rats is exactly what's happening to the human brain.

PEREIRA: It's interesting, because people have -- there seems to be a vein of similarities through the stories we hear anecdotally of what people experience and this would point to perhaps why if it's happening in the organ that is the brain.

NARULA: Exactly. So we know that if the brain is being electrically stimulated in certain areas, especially in visual areas, this might explain the very vivid visual experiences that people report.

PEREIRA: Wow. This is really kind of fascinating.

BOLDUAN: As a cardiologist, I don't know how often you come across this, people say they saw the light at the end of the tunnel, they saw a family member, a vision -- I'm sure you get these stories more often than not.

NARULA: At least 20 percent of cardiac arrest patients report having some sort of near-death experience.

BOLDUAN: At least 20 percent?


CUOMO: What about the hovering over your body thing that you hear a lot from people? Does that fall into this envelope as well?

NARULA: It does. It's in the same idea of that out-of-body or near- death experience.

BOLDUAN: But again, you believe, from your expert opinion, you think there needs to be more study before you can make that connection. Because it's hard to extrapolate activity in the brain to these are visions. We can't tell what experience a rat is having.

NARULA: That's exactly correct. We definitely need more research.

PEREIRA: Would it also -- I would imagine having a life-changing event like that, and a near-death experience, there's some trauma associated with going through that. Will it also help in terms of how the person can be helped to recover from that?

NARULA: In terms of having a near-death experience and being able to explain it in a scientific way?

PEREIRA: Yes, exactly.

NARULA: I think a lot of people think that they're crazy if they talk about this, and I think having a scientific explanation for it can definitely -

PEREIRA: Validates it.

NARULA: It definitely validates it.

CUOMO: Probably works both ways, though, because a lot of people take meaning from these experiences, you know, whether they're welcomed by a loved one or they believe in higher powers, you know.

BOLDUAN: Spiritual connection, absolutely.

CUOMO: So maybe not everyone would want that explanation. They may have their own.

NARULA: That's true. And it might be nice to keep a healthy balance between supernatural or spiritual beliefs and also the science, as opposed to trying to pinpoint it to one area or another.

BOLDUAN: All right, Doctor, it's great to see you.

PEREIRA: Fascinating stuff.

CUOMO: It's good to have you on here dropping the science on us. Appreciate it.

Moving on now, officials are warning beach goers along Florida's Atlantic coast to beware of jellyfish. Hundreds of people reported stings this weekend along the tiny section of shore, and it's all because of a sudden influx of one type of hard to spot jellyfish. So, what are we going to do? Indra Petersons will tell us. Indra, what's going on with the jellyfish?

INDRA PETERSONS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: I mean, you probably don't even know, this many people, hundreds of thousands of people get stung by jellyfish every year. And all the lucky folks in Florida, well, they get those fertile breeding grounds for about 200,000 stings a year, but even with that, they did not expect to what they saw in one county this weekend.


STAN WEST, FLORIDA BEACHGOER: They're trying to see what's stinging you. You don't see anything, but then you'd take a walk at a beach and you can see the big kind of like a clover leaf jellyfish.

PETERSONS (voice-over): Stan West is just one of many Florida beachgoers stung by moon jellyfish this weekend near Daytona Beach. More than 200 people were treated in Volusia County alone where scores of the clear and hard to spot invertebrae are still hanging around. What's causing it? experts say the weather.

JEFF CORWIN, ANIMAL & NATURE CONSERVATIONIST: You get a weather system moving through which is a strong current and big move tide and that is enough to send a wave of these jellyfish washing ashore.

PETERSONS: Most stings are relatively minor, causing itching and burning, but what about the home remedy rumored to dull the pain from this episode of "Friends."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The jellyfish! Damn all the jellyfish!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got to do something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But there's really only one thing you can do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What, what is it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to have to pee on her.

PETERSONS: There is no research backing the effective of urine for treating a sting. The best remedy is salt water to help deactivate the stingers and soothe the pain, but ultimately, you're just going to have to wave it out.

CORWIN: You're kind of going to go through this roller coaster ride of pain, but eventually, it will pass.

PETERSONS: So, how do you know there could be stingers in the water? Well, lifeguards will usually fly a purple flag to signal the presence of dangerous marine life, but above all, experts say the best thing to do is stay calm.

CORWIN: The sky isn't falling. Henny penny to relax. It's just a bunch of jellyfish.


PETERSONS (on-camera): Well, there you go. Of course, one more thing people can blame me for, it's all caused by the weather. Florida officials stress this is only a temporary situation. A shift in the wind direction should push these jellyfish right back out to sea. So, don't cancel those of beach plans just yet, guys.

BOLDUAN: All right. Good to know. I still don't want to -- even though they say don't make a big deal of it, I still do not want to come upon that many jellyfish.


BOLDUAN: Staying calm seems the hardest thing to do. Yes.

CUOMO: It is tough, especially for kids, especially for kids.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Indra.

Coming up next on NEW DAY, a federal judge puts limits on New York City's controversial stop and frisk program. We're going to take a look at both sides of the argument and where to go from here.

CUOMO: And you heard about Baby Veronica, right? There's been a big development in the legal battle over this child. We're going to give you a full report straight ahead.


CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY. Are you ready? We have a controversial decision for a controversial policy. A federal judge ordering limits to New York City's stop and frisk program, ruling it violates the constitutional rights of New Yorkers. Mayor Mike Bloomberg and police commissioner, Ray Kelly, defend the program and announce plans to appeal.

So, let's discuss. Joining me now to do exactly that, Columbia University professor, Marc Lamont Hill and CNN "Crossfire" host, Mr. Newt Gingrich. Thank you to both of you for being here. Newt, I'm going to start with you and the proposition of this decision is, stop and frisk is controversial, but not the way you do it, New York. What's you're feeling about that? NEWT GINGRICH, CNN HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Well, I think, first of all, that Commissioner Kelly has made very clear the people who are most in danger from this judge's decisions are young African-American males, because they're overwhelmingly the victim of murder and the dramatic drop in crime in New York starting with Mayor Giuliani and continued by Mayor Bloomberg is astonishing.

Last year was the least violent year in modern New York history. Commissioner Kelly estimates that 7,700 lives have been saved in part as a result of this policy. So, I think this judge is taking a huge moral burden on himself to suggest that the process which has saved thousands of lives ought to be dropped. I mean, he's relatively safe. Young Black males aren't.

CUOMO: Now, there's a big number that refutes what Newt is saying and the judge relied upon it and it goes to how many of these stops results in arrest. What's the point here?

MARC LAMONT HILL, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: Well, there's a few points here. One, I don't concede that stop and frisk is what stopped all of these deaths. There's no statistical evidence to prove that. Also, most of the stops don't result in any type of arrest and when they do, it's often for marijuana, it's very rarely guns. Only two percent of the stops actually yield guns.

So, there's no evidence that this is stopping gun deaths. In fact, the number of violent shootings hasn't gone down really at all in the last 10 years. Deaths have gone down, but they've gone down in Los Angeles, Dallas, New Orleans, by much larger margins, and they don't have these types of stop and frisk policies.

CUOMO: The fundamental point of police is this is where the crime happens, that's why we do the stop and frisk there, that's the reality. And, by the way, going by the numbers, we don't stop as many people by percentage as there are that percentage of crimes committed. So, this community has 80 percent of the crimes committed by young Black and Latino men. We're only stopping like 60 percent of them. So, we're being fair.

HILL: That's not fair, that's bad math. You don't stop the number of people proportion to the number of crimes they commit. By that logic, if all Black people commit a crime in a neighborhood, then we would never stop White people, right? That doesn't make sense. It should be in proportion to the number of people in that place. Occasionally, there'll be overrepresentation based on another factors, but it shouldn't be that stark.

GINGRICH: That's just nonsense.

CUOMO: Yes. Why is it nonsense, Newt? Please.

GINGRICH: It's nonsense for this reason. The areas they're going into where the highest crime rate occurs are areas that are disproportionately Black. Now, this came straight out of their analysis of where the murders occur, where the crimes occur. Frankly, if Chicago applied the same level of policing as New York City, Chicago would be saving 200 or 300 lives a year, every single year.

So the question is, if you have two neighborhoods, all right, Staten Island, which has virtually no crime, and you have a neighborhood which has a tremendous amount of crime, where should you put the police and should you be saying, gee, let's be mathematically equal and make sure that we stop people in neighborhoods that hasn't had any crime just to feel better.

HILL: But Newt, that's not the argument. The argument here isn't that you shouldn't have heavy policing in high crime neighborhoods. And it's not even that you can't have a stop and frisk policy. The judge didn't get rid of stop and frisk. They simply said there needs to be some sort of implementation that's racially fair and doesn't violate the fourth and 14th Amendment. You can still stop people. They just want you to have probable cause.

CUOMO: Newt, how do you deal with the fact that the man sitting to my left who's a Columbia professor was stopped and frisked in his car by police for no good reason? And that's there so many stories like his, and they go to that numbers that you got almost 90 percent of your stops don't result in an arrest. How do you deal with that in terms of your tactics?

GINGRICH: Look, I think you have to ask a very simple question, and this is an experiment, remember, with people's lives. So, we can take an area, go to a dramatically more reduced stop and frisk and let's see whether more people are getting killed. What the police are trying to do, and this goes all the way back to Mayor Giuliani and Chief Bratton and the very dramatic change in crime numbers in the early 1990s.

What they're trying to do is establish a sense of order, because establishing a sense of order clearly diminishes the amount of crime that occurs. And the evidence on that is overwhelming.

HILL: But it's a huge leap in logic to say that a change of culture in a place which we all agree is helpful necessarily demands stop and frisk. You can have both. You can have order. You can have a sense of command by police without oppressing and violating people's rights. You can actually do that.

And again, L.A. had a 59 percent drop with no vicious stop and frisk policy. New Orleans had a 49 percent drop without the stop and frisk policy. Their crime went down, their -- desk would down without stop and frisk. You're looking at a whole range of policies in deciding the stop and frisk was the primary reason when all the impairable evidence suggests the opposite.

GINGRICH: But the people who are in charge of trying to stop it think that it is very, very useful. I'm just suggesting we ought to be cautious and recognize when judges who are very safe make these kinds of decisions, the lives that they are risking are young African- American males, because disproportionately, that's who's going to get killed if they're wrong.

HILL: And I would suggest that people who don't have to experience stop and frisk find it very convenient and comfortable to say that it's no big deal. There's a psychological toll that it takes. There is an emotional toll that it takes.

And also, it really destroys community/police relations, which making more difficult for people to speak up and make somewhat difficult for people to report murders because people don't trust the police. And again, it doesn't work. It's not as if this is yielding 40 or 50 percent arrest drops. This is yielding almost nothing.

GINGRICH: Let me ask you a question, why do you think that Mayor Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly believe in it so deeply if it yields nothing? They seem to think it yields substantial amount of advantage to them.

HILL: I'm stunned that you're investing this much faith and trust in the government in the state to say, well, if they trust it, I trust it. I suspect you wouldn't say that to Obama about NSA or anything else. I don't trust them just because they say. I need empirical evidence and there just is none.

And the reason why they believe it so much is because they have nothing to lose. If you throw enough stuff against the wall, something will stick. The problem is very little sticks. That's dangerous for the people.

GINGRICH: You know, the reason I trust them is because I looked very carefully at what Giuliani and Bratton did. I went to Los Angeles and look at what Bratton was doing when he went out there as chief. I've talked to Kelly about this stuff. I actually do believe -- if you look at the difference in Chicago and New York, I believe the difference in the policing system is a very big part of the difference in the murder rate.

And I think, frankly, it will be great if Mayor Emanuel will spend some time looking at what's happening in New York and apply it to Chicago.

HILL: Do you seriously think that the only difference between Chicago's violence and New York's lack of violence is stop and frisk? You don't think --

GINGRICH: No. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. This is a piece of the puzzle. They think it's a significant piece of that puzzle. And all I'm saying is people should be very aware that if, in fact, the judge is wrong, people are going to die as a result of his decision.

HILL: That's stunning to me. That's the exact same thing -- that's exact same thing logic that the government uses again with things like NSA. Well, if we don't torture people, if we don't violate people's privacy, then Americans will die. They always dream (ph) of this narrative of fear to make us think that it's OK to compromise constitutional rights.

GINGRICH: I think the Chicago murder rate is fear in and of itself. You don't have to drum up anything. HILL: I want the Chicago murder rate to drop, I just don't think that violating people's constitutional rights would do it expressing (ph) the evidence suggest that it almost never does.

CUOMO: All right. We've got to leave it there. Obviously --

HILL: I think I've convinced him that I'm right.


CUOMO: You both convinced me of something, that one, when you have a good debate, you know it, because you don't need the moderator. These two guys, they did it civilly. They made the points that have clearly laid out on each side. And you know, Professor Hill, the idea of balancing what scares people versus what keeps them safe is one that's fundamental that we see in government and we see it with stop and frisk also.

Very important debate to have. The judge pushed it with this decision. No matter which way the law comes out, the practice is going to be a big part of the culture of policing. So, it's important to have the debate. Thank you, Marc Lamont Hill.

HILL: My pleasure.

CUOMO: Mr. Newt Gingrich, thank you very much. I appreciate the robust debate here on NEW DAY.

GINGRICH: Thank you.

CUOMO: Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right. Chris, coming up next on NEW DAY, where is Baby Veronica? We're following new developments in the custody battle over the child. Take a listen to that.

And also coming up, a New York City surgeon right there offering special deals for anyone who opens their little black book to set him up on a date. If that doesn't raise eyebrows, wait until you hear his type.