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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Violence in Egypt; New Jersey Father Makes Request of Governor Christie; Cancer Doctor Accused of Giving Fake Diagnoses; Oprah, Forest Whitaker on 'The Butler'; Father Defies Court Order to Return Baby Veronica to Adoptive Parents; St. Louis Uses Mosaic Project to Attract Immigrants
Aired August 15, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. It's 10:00 p.m. on the East Coast.
We have breaking news and some shocking video as the death toll climbs in Egypt and pressure grows on President Obama.
Also tonight, with his little girl's life on the line, a father confronts Chris Christie for the signature that he believes could save her life, the signature allowing 2-year-old Vivian Wilson the medical marijuana her parents say she so desperately needs. Vivian's dad joins me tonight, along with Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who has done a 180 on medical marijuana.
Later, my conversation about Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker about Trayvon Martin, the N-word and race in America.
We begin tonight though with the breaking news, the growing carnage in Egypt and what if anything America can do to stop it. The second part of that, what to do, is unclear. The cost in human lives though, well, it is plain to see. Moments ago, the Muslim Brotherhood spokesman announcing over Twitter that tomorrow will be a "Friday of anger," a day of anger, calling for marches to head toward Cairo's center after noon prayers.
Also tonight, the death toll from yesterday's clashes revised upwards significantly. The state-run TV station in Egypt, Nile TV, now saying at least 580 people were killed in fighting yesterday, and 4,000 wounded, 580 killed, 4,000 people wounded. Eyewitnesses say the killing mostly at the hands of government forces, many of them when troops and security forces firing live ammunition demolished a pair of protest camps in Cairo.
One especially shocking piece of video surfacing today on YouTube, according to "The New York Times," which puts it on its blog The Lead, it was taken during a military assault on a sit-in outside of a mosque. It is not easy to watch. You might want to look away. It shows a protester trying to carry a wounded man to safety and what happens next.
According to "The Times," a woman who have appears to have been recording the assault was also shot. "The Times" cannot determine, nor can we, whether she too was a protester or journalist covering the scene. Reaction to all the killing today felt across Egypt. This is Alexandria, where thousands of Morsy supporters hit the streets to find the state of emergency now in effect.
In Giza, not far from the pyramids, the local government headquarters came under attack from Islamist forces, who threw Molotov cocktails and blocked the nearby main road into Cairo. Not far from there, members of the Coptic Christian faith surveyed the wreckage of their church. Last night, a mob chanting for Egypt to become an Islamic state torched and looted the house of worship, one of at least two churches burned last night. A third was set ablaze today, again, nearly 600 people killed, 4,000 wounded.
Today, the Pentagon canceled upcoming joint military exercises with Egypt and President Obama condemned the military government's recent actions. He did not, however, condemn the regime itself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't take sides with any particular party or political figure. I know it's tempting inside of Egypt to blame the United States or the West or some other outside actor for what's gone wrong.
We've been blamed by supporters of Morsy. We've been blamed by the other side as if we are supporters of Morsy. That kind of approach will do nothing to help Egyptians achieve the future that they deserve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Ever since the Camp David peace treaty in 1978, that future has been tightly coupled to the United States, especially the U.S. military, with Egypt receiving about $1.5 billion a year in American aid. That's second only to what Israel gets.
President Obama has neither explicitly cut off the money nor referred to the military takeover as a coup, which would shut off the dollars automatically. In a moment, we will talk about what the U.S. options are now, if any.
Got a full panel. Arwa Damon is there in Cairo for us live, Egyptian journalist Mona Eltahawy on the phone, also from Cairo. Arab analyst Robin Wright, senior fellow at the Woodrow Wilson Center, joins us. Special "Newsweek" and Daily Beast correspondent Peter Beinart, he's the editor of The Daily Beast's OpenZion.com blog. And former Bush White House spokesman Ari Fleischer.
Arwa, let me start with you and you're on the ground, hundreds dead, thousands injured. Can you take us through what has happened there today and what to expect with this just announced Friday of anger?
ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When we compare the situation to what took place yesterday, it was certainly significantly calmer.
But that does not mean that this crisis is by any stretch of the imagination over. The streets of Cairo were pretty empty throughout the entire day. Of course, now there is that curfew in place, second night in a row that we have had the curfew here, state of emergency also, of course, to be lasting for about a month.
You were talking about the attacks on the churches there. Well, actually we have been hearing various reports that the number is much, much higher. At least 30 to have been attacked across the country. Many people were warning prior to this violent crackdown that this would be the type of spillover, ripple effect of violence that the country could have expected to see in the aftermath. One of the many reasons why people were trying to urge the government to continue to pursue a peaceful solution.
The ministry of interior also, Anderson, announcing following a number of attacks on police stations and on government institutions, that it had authorized its troops to use lethal force if such attacks took place. Once again, of course, everyone is very anxious about what tomorrow is going to bring, especially with the mass demonstrations being called for by the Muslim Brotherhood, those expected to take place after noon prayers not too far from where we are right now, Anderson.
COOPER: Mona, you say you support neither the military nor the Muslim Brotherhood. But if you support neither, then who are you left with? And is that part of the problem right now, that there's basically these polarized sides in Egypt?
MONA ELTAHAWY, JOURNALIST & COMMENTATOR: Yes, absolutely, Anderson.
I support neither side, but I want to make it very clear that I unequivocally condemn the mass killing by security forces yesterday, and condemn the attacks on churches across the country. Our biggest and most urgent need right now is to stop the killing and stop the blood, because in one day yesterday, almost as many Egyptians were killed in that one day as they were during the 18 days that took us to get rid of Hosni Mubarak.
We do need somebody who is an alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood and the military because we're constantly pushed to choose between the two. I don't think that Egypt needs to choose between the two. Egypt is much bigger than that.
COOPER: Robin, the Egyptian ambassador to the U.S. says this is the most serious juncture Egypt has been in the last 30 years. Do you agree with that?
ROBIN WRIGHT, SENIOR FELLOW, WOODROW WILSON CENTER: Absolutely. This is a real challenge for the Obama administration.
After all, the military has been the cornerstone of U.S. relations since the peace treaty, since the Egyptians walked away from their relationship with the Soviet Union. All the presidents since the monarchy was ousted in 1952 have come from the military, until Mohammed Morsy.
This is a moment where the United States really has to review its relations with the Egyptians, with the military, many of whose leaders were trained in the United States. It has tough decisions to make. What the president said today had some tough words but the action was actually rather symbolic. There are tough questions not about just aid but actually whether the United States has enough influence to really make a difference, because the military is basically sticking it to Washington and has indicated it's prepared to take its own action irrespective what its allies or the international community has said in condemning what's happening in the last week.
COOPER: Ari, President Obama said today in part that the U.S. doesn't take sides with any particular political figure or party in Egypt. Do you buy that?
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, that's the right thing to say. We should not take sides. We have two bad sides to take a choice between.
But we did take sides previously. Remember, this is the president who said President Mubarak must go. So we have weighed in to Egyptian affairs previously, just two years ago, and now we're in the consequences, not of what we did, but what the Egyptians are going through are on ourselves and on all the world.
I think this is like the French revolution. We're going to see this shift back and forth between one pole to the other pole. In the case of the French revolution, it the monarchists against all the revolutionaries. Here in Egypt, it's going to be the Muslim Brotherhood against the military.
There's not much in the middle. That's the reality of dealing with Egypt. The United States' role is going to have to be symbolic, because we don't have much influence in Egypt. It's a very difficult path for any president to walk. But at the end of the day, as much as we don't like the military, the last thing any of us should want frankly is for the Muslim Brotherhood, as Americans, to return to power in Egypt.
COOPER: Peter, what do you say?
PETER BEINART, THE DAILY BEAST: Honestly, it's amazing how people like Ari, who said during the Bush administration that the agenda was supposed to be democracy, when Islamist parties win, all of a sudden say the most important thing is to prevent Islamist parties from winning.
I don't think Morsy was a good leader. He wouldn't have been my first or second or third or fourth candidate. But the important principle here is that the United States does not rule out any political party from being able to run in elections. We simply support the principle of free elections, rule of law, and minority rights.
And the Obama administration was played by the military, which made this big show of the idea that it would overthrow Morsy and bring a return back to democracy. Very rarely does that happen with military coups. It didn't happen here and we should have been much stronger against it. COOPER: Ari, I want you to be able to respond to that.
FLEISCHER: I agree with the principle that he laid out, but it's also important to note that the Muslim Brotherhood didn't govern in anything close to a democratic fashion.
BEINART: And has the military?
FLEISCHER: And the risk in the Arab Middle East is that people come to power through democracy or through coup and then they become even worse.
And that's what happened in Iran in the late 1970s. This is not something we want to see happen in Egypt. That would not represent peace, it would not represent stability. It would not be good for anybody in the registration.
COOPER: Robin, where do you see this going? It's impossible I guess to predict, obviously, but where do you see it? What options are there?
WRIGHT: There's some really important turning points that are just in the next few weeks.
First of all, the new constitution is supposed to be announced by next Wednesday. Then it goes to a 50-member committee for review. The 50- member committee hasn't even been formed or announced anyway. Then the Egyptians are supposed to, under the road map for the transition back to democracy, have elections for both a new parliament a president within six months.
The real danger is that the whole principle, the whole process that's been laid out even in the last month since the coup is likely to be eroded, that events on the ground will overtake any effort to get back to the democratic process. And the danger also is that the military will not broker opposition or other voices when it comes to what's in the new constitution, who is allowed to run for parliament or for the presidency.
The exclusion of the Muslim Brotherhood or any other party, whatever their political stripes, would show that the military is being once again very exclusive in power and that democracy is a dead issue in Egypt again. That's a danger and a precedent for the whole region.
COOPER: Arwa, you were there in 2011 during those sort of heady days of the revolution that overthrew Mubarak. Just on a personal level, what is it like on the streets? What are you hearing from people? What is it like there, especially with this day of anger called for tomorrow, what to expect?
DAMON: There's a lot of tension, there's a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration, and there also is -- Anderson, I know you and the other journalists who covered 2011 will remember it quite well -- a lot of anti-journalist sentiment, everybody quite angry at the press, especially at the foreign media, no matter which side of this current crisis they are on.
But most people, they just really want to see the country moving forward. The most critical thing for so many here right now is the economy. People really want to begin to live a decent, normal life.
COOPER: Arwa Damon, I appreciate you being there. Stay safe.
Mona Eltahawy, you as well. Peter Beinart, thank you, Robin Wright, Ari Fleischer a swell.
Let us know what you think. Let's talk about it on Twitter during the break. @AndersonCooper is my Twitter address.
Up next, he's got a short temper and a sharp tongue. It's not easy to confront New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. You will meet a man who did though for a very good reason. His 2-year-old daughter's life may depend on it.
Later, what this cancer doctor is accused of doing is just obscene, lining his pockets by pumping his patients full of chemo, patients who not only didn't need chemo, but didn't even have cancer at all -- "Crime and Punishment" when we continue.
COOPER: Welcome back.
In his compelling documentary "Weed," Dr. Sanjay Gupta told the story of a young girl Charlotte. Charlotte, who is just 5 years old, has epilepsy. She was having as many as 300 seizures a week, each one potentially deadly. Medical marijuana reduced that number to just a handful. Charlotte lives in Colorado, where medical marijuana is legal.
Vivian Wilson, 2 years old, who also suffers from a potentially deadly kind of epilepsy, lives in New Jersey, where it faces tighter restrictions. That could change if Governor Chris Christie signs the bill now on his desk permitting severely ill children to use an edible strain of cannabis.
He's promised a decision by tomorrow. Vivian's doctors have already tried seven different kinds of drugs to treat her condition without much luck. Cannabis may be Vivian's only alternative. Yesterday, Brian Wilson made his case to the governor one on one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just wondering if I can have a half-a-minute, because we have been trying to get in touch with you. We can't get through to you. I was wondering what the hold-up is. It's been like two months now.
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Sir, because these are complicated issues. BRIAN WILSON, FATHER: We have had this discussion.
CHRISTIE: Listen, I know you think it's simple. And it's not. It's simple for you. It's not simple for me.
WILSON: We have had our experts reach to you. Have you heard from our doctors?
CHRISTIE: I have read everything that has been put in front of me and I will have a decision by Friday. I wish for the best for you, your daughter and your family. And I'm going to do what I think is best for the people of the state.
WILSON: Do you think it's best for the governor to come in between the doctors and their patients? Is this a nanny state?
CHRISTIE: Sir, I'm making -- I'm elected to make these decisions. I will make the decisions and I will make it in time...
WILSON: Our elected representatives have spoken to us and told you that they wanted to. Please don't let my daughter die, Governor. Don't let my daughter die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: "Please don't let my daughter die," he said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, Governor Christie's decision could come tomorrow. That's when he said it would.
I spoke with Brian Wilson and Dr. Gupta earlier tonight.
COOPER: Brian, you said to the Governor Christie, "Please don't let my daughter die," Governor.
Explain to people why for your daughter medical marijuana could be the difference between life and death.
WILSON: Well, every day, Vivian suffers seizures, some full-on tonic- clonics, other small minor ones. Those are all taking a toll on her body, her mind, her heart.
She has stopped breathing several times during seizure. She can also die of SUDEP, which is sudden unexplained death in epilepsy, at any moment. There was a time period in April there where four children with Dravet syndrome who died. It's a real factor in this disorder. And unless we can control those seizures that she's having, which the drugs, the heavy pharmaceuticals that she is on, they are failing to do, so unless we can control those seizures, she stands a very good chance, like the other children, of dying. And medical marijuana, especially these high-CBD, low-THC strains, have shown some great promise in all the children who have been taking them.
We just need to get her on that to save her life. Otherwise, she could very easily die.
COOPER: I can't imagine what this is like for your family to see this and for you.
Just to be clear, though, kids can be prescribed medical marijuana in New Jersey right now. It's the current restrictions that you take issue with, correct?
Vivian has a marijuana card. But the program in New Jersey was pretty much regulated out of functionality. Nothing about the regulations really allow the program to exist and run. The bill that we have on the governor's desk right now is trying to help ease some of those regulations so that it can actually become an operational program.
And we just cannot get what she needs. We can't get any CBD strains. She would only be able to smoke it if she got it, and the restrictions for doctors for any other children who want to get on the program is just so onerous. We're talking about a medicine here. It should be treated like a medicine. It should be prescribed by a single doctor. And you should be able to get it in a strength and a form that is required for the specific ailment you have.
COOPER: The idea that you're going to have a 2-year-old smoking marijuana is obviously ridiculous.
The kind of marijuana you're talking about would be in an oil or a throat lozenge, correct?
Well, they allow throat lozenges currently in the law, but they haven't approved any. And Vivian, on her diet, wouldn't be able to take any. Also, a 2-year-old could very easy choke on a lozenge. So, this current law only allows for the plant or lozenge. We're looking for like an oil, a butter, some sort of an extract. The law doesn't allow for any other extracts. And we're trying to change that, so Vivian and the troops patients can get the medicine in the forms they need.
You could even put it in a gel cap. Out in Colorado, you get your prescription, you get capsules. Take two in the morning, take two at night.
(CROSSTALK) WILSON: This is medication.
COOPER: In Los Angeles, in clinics, in some of these marijuana clinics, they have it in gelato or in ice cream. I suppose that would be something a 2-year-old would like.
Sanjay, in general, what is the science in terms of medical marijuana for children? We're talking about a 2-year-old child here and I guess some people will say, wow, 2 years old, that sounds young to be taking medical marijuana.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
No doubt. I think you want to proceed with caution, certainly. There is more data sort of looking at seizure disorders overall, what Brian is describing. And I saw it with young Charlotte as well in our documentary, is sort of an intractable type of seizure where it's just very, very difficult to treat and Charlotte was on seven different medications as well.
Brian is right. There is some data that's been collected by some of the doctors in Colorado, as well as some of the dispensary owners, the Stanley brothers, of about 41 patients, I believe, now, all children, with Dravet syndrome, that I think 80 percent they said had significant improvement.
All of them had some improvement, but 80 percent had significant improvement, where they didn't need the other medications anymore.
COOPER: But, Sanjay, in terms of your position now, you have done a 180 on this?
Look, I saw firsthand obviously not just Charlotte, but lots of other patients who clearly have a significant problem here, this intractable epilepsy. Charlotte was having 300 seizures a week. You heard Brian describe what is happening with Vivian. So they have a legitimate problem, and we know that this cannabis, this medical cannabis, which again is high-CBD, low-THC.
That may sound like alphabet soup to people, but high-CBD is the medicinal part of it. THC is the psychoactive part of it. These kids aren't getting high. They're getting a medicine. And also in Charlotte's case, she was taking an oil, as Brian described. This isn't someone smoking it.
But they got better from this when nothing else worked.
COOPER: Brian, are you considering moving if he vetoes the bill?
We have already been looking at areas to move to in Colorado. There's actually quite a migration going on currently. Right after Dr. Gupta's special aired, on the Pediatric Cannabis Therapy Board on Facebook, there was a whole bunch of new registrants of a bunch of new people saying how do we get to Colorado and how -- a lot of parents with kids with these severe disorders who are very, very interesting.
The parents are waking up to this, and we demand that our kids can be healthy and that we can make those decisions with our doctors about what is right for our children.
COOPER: Well, Brian, I'm so sorry you're in the situation and our best to Vivian and the rest of your family. We will continue to follow this. Thank you for being with us, Sanjay as well.
GUPTA: Thank you.
COOPER: If you missed it the first time around, you can catch Sanjay's documentary "Weed" this Friday 10:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.
Just ahead, the Michigan cancer doctor who is facing horrific allegations. Dr. Farid Fata is accused of pumping his patients full of chemo they didn't need -- some of them didn't even have cancer -- all to line his pockets.
Plus, my interview with Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker. The civil rights movement is the backdrop their new movie, "The Butler." Many of the characters use the N-word. That wasn't even for Oprah. Here's her take on using the N-word.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, "OPRAH'S NEXT CHAPTER": It's impossible for me to do it, because I know the history, and I know that for so many of my relatives, whom I don't know, who I don't know my name, people who I am connected to, my ancestors, that was the last word they heard as they were being strung up by a tree.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Welcome back.
In "Crime and Punishment" tonight: a medical fraud case as shocking as any we have seen. Dr. Farid Fata, a Michigan cancer doctor, is in jail tonight. He's being held on a $9 million bond.
The allegations against him in a 21-page criminal complaint can only be described as horrific. The doctor is accused of billing for unnecessary and expensive medical tests and treatments, including chemotherapy, chemotherapy that patients didn't actually need. Some of them didn't even have cancer at all.
It's hard to imagine any doctor making up a cancer diagnosis just to turn a profit, but that's exactly what federal authorities are alleging.
Former employees blew the whistle on the doctor.
Gary Tuchman reports.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dennis Hagerman felt a lump on his leg in 2009. He and his wife, Nancy, did the logical thing. They went to see a doctor, Dr. Farid Fata.
NANCY HAGERMAN, WIFE: He told us the type of tumor that it was, was osteosarcoma, that it was totally treatable with chemotherapy.
TUCHMAN: Nancy told Dr. Fata she had a new job, that she would have insurance in a matter of days.
(on camera): Your insurance kicked in.
You could have paid for this treatment with your insurance?
TUCHMAN: But he insisted to you it's going to be really expensive. It's better to have Medicaid?
HAGERMAN: Absolutely. Those were his exact words.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Dr. Fata says Nancy would not treat her husband at this medical complex in Rochester, Michigan, until she was approved for Medicaid. What she did not know at the time was that she was part of what investigators say was an elaborate Medicare/Medicaid scam that lined Dr. Fata's pockets with tens of millions of dollars.
HAGERMAN: And every time we would go to the office for a checkup or whatever, the first thing he would ask, have you heard from Medicaid yet? No, we have not. Well, we really have to wait for that, because treatments are very expensive, and...
TUCHMAN (on camera): So he wouldn't do any treatment?
HAGERMAN: He did nothing.
TUCHMAN: Your husband had this growing tumor and he kept saying, you need to have Medicaid before we start?
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Nancy ended up bringing her husband to another facility, where he was treated immediately and proficiently.
And now investigators say Nancy's story was just the tip of the iceberg.
(on camera): According to the indictment, less than two weeks ago, the FBI interviewed an oncologist who worked with Dr. Fata. That oncologist told the FBI that Fata would give chemotherapy -- quote -- "where it is medically unnecessary or at inappropriate dosages."
The FBI says that oncologist also said that Fata could give chemotherapy to all end-of-life patients, instead of letting them die in peace.
(voice-over): Dr. Fata is even accused of diagnosing people with cancer who didn't have cancer. Why in the world would he do that? Simply put, investigators say, money.
Investigators say he charged Medicare for the tune of at least $150 million since 2009, and collected $65 million of it, most of it fraudulent, money that was very possibly used for possessions like his suburban Detroit mansion.
It's not clear if he did the same with the Medicaid program.
The indictment also alleges the doctor told a patient who had hit his head in the office that he'd have to get chemotherapy before he'd go to the emergency room for his head injury. That patient later died from the head injury.
Milton Berz was another one of Fata's patient. He had a mild form of leukemia and was doing well without chemotherapy. He switched to Dr. Fata because he wanted to go to a closer hospital. His son, Jeffrey, says Fata immediately started an aggressive chemotherapy regimen: in retrospect, aggressive and bizarre, says Jeffrey.
JEFFREY BERZ, FATHER RECEIVED TREATMENT FROM DR. FATA: Somebody from the staff would come out into the parking garage and give my dad the chemotherapy right there as he sat in his car.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Basically, Fata was treating this like it was a McDonald's or a Burger King. You drive through and get your cancer treatment.
BERZ: I heard it compared to that already, and it almost appears that way to us now, as we think about it.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But now Jeffrey Berz is left with a memorial to his father. Milton Berz died four months after Dr. Fata started his aggressive chemotherapy treatment.
BERZ: He died when his -- ultimately, when his kidneys failed and shut down. He spent the last few hours of his life in excruciating pain, on morphine.
TUCHMAN: Dennis Hagerman recovered after he left dr. Fata. Two years later, though, the cancer came back and spread, and he, too, passed away. However, Nancy Hagerman can't ever forget the week she and her husband did nothing about his cancer while agreeing to Dr. Fata's request for the Medicaid to kick in.
NANCY HAGERMAN, WIDOW OF PATIENT: I want him to go to prison. I want him to think every day about what he's done to these people.
BERZ: I'm trying to cope with my father's death that happened in 2008. And it's like it's happening all over again.
COOPER: Gary joins us now from Detroit. The allegations are just stunning. The indictment lists all sorts of things the doctor allegedly did. What else stands out to you, Gary?
TUCHMAN: Yes, there are so many things in that indictment, Anderson. One we know is that the FBI says a medical assistant told them that Dr. Fata, once he started chemotherapy, would tell the patients, "You will have to undergo chemotherapy the rest of your life."
In addition to that, Fata owns a radiology center, Anderson, and according to the FBI, a medical assistant said that he would ask -- Fata would ask them to say that these people had cancer even if they didn't, so they would also have to go to the radiology center. The allegation here, this guy just very greedy and wants money from a lot of years.
COOPER: I mean, it's unbelievable. What is his lawyer saying?
TUCHMAN: So his lawyer is telling us -- he can't talk about it; he's in jail right now. His lawyer is telling us he claims he's innocent and will fight these charges. He is right now, Anderson, in jail on $9 million bond. and if he's not permitted -- he's wealthy. If he wanted to bond out, he is not permitted to use any of the alleged ill- gotten gains. His attorney is telling us that he doesn't have the $9 million. For now, he will be staying in jail.
COOPER: Wow. We'll continue to follow. Gary, appreciate it. Thanks.
Coming up, my conversation with Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker about their new movie with a backdrop to the civil rights movement and their thoughts about race in America right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, ACTRESS/MEDIA MOGUL: And the truth of the matter is, Emmett Till became a symbol for those times, as Trayvon Martin has become a symbol for this time. I mean, there are multiple Trayvon Martins whose names never make the newspapers or the headlines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also ahead, the custody battle over Veronica, whose biological father defied a court order to turn the little girl over to her adoptive parents. The fight is not over, but she may soon get to see those parents. The latest on that coming up.
COOPER: My candid in-depth conversation with Oprah Winfrey about race, the Trayvon Martin case and why she says it's impossible for her to use the "N" word. Ahead on 360.
COOPER: Tonight, a BIG 360 interview, Oprah Winfrey. It's been 15 years since she appeared on the big screen in the movie "Beloved," but starting tomorrow, she's back in movie theaters, co-starring with Forest Whitaker in "Lee Daniels' The Butler."
Oprah told me she wanted to do the film because of its backdrop of the civil rights movement and because of where we are in the evolution of our nation right now. More on that in a moment. But first, a clip from the movie, based on a true story. Forest Whitaker stars as a butler who served American presidents over three decades, and the film shows how changes in society and the White House over that time affected his own family. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: What was the name of that movie, honey?
FOREST WHITAKER, ACTOR: "In the Heat of the Night."
WINFREY: "In the Heat of the Night," with Sidney Poitier.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sidney Poitier is a white man's fantasy of what he wants us to be.
WHITAKER: What are you talking about? He just won the Academy Award. He's breaking down barriers for all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not about being white, it's about acting white. Sidney Poitier is nothing but an Uncle Tom.
WHITAKER: Look at you, all toughed up. Covering your ear, saying whatever you want.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
WHITAKER: Get the hell out of my house! Get on out!
WINFREY: Everybody just sit down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, Mr. Butler. I didn't mean to make fun of your hero.
WINFREY: Everything you are, and everything you have is because of that butler.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I spoke at length to Forest Whitaker and Oprah Winfrey about the film and about race in America, particularly after the Trayvon Martin case. Here's part of that interview.
COOPER: You talked about this coming at an important time. Certainly there has been, in the wake of the Trayvon Martin case, a discussion about raise in this country. That -- it's interesting. I saw a Gallup poll recently that the majority of African-Americans say this is a discussion which needs to be had. A majority of whites say too much is being made of this discussion.
WINFREY: I know, I know.
COOPER: How do you -- what do you...
WINFREY: That's why I love the film, in light of this discussion, is because it brings context to the discussion. When you look at the film, beginning with that lynching scene and ending with, you know, walking into Obama's office, look at what has happened in the span of one man's lifetime, in our country.
WHITAKER: This movie reminds us that the circular motion of things is trying to work themselves out, is still going on, as in Emmett Till. And now we're looking at Trayvon. We're looking at Oscar Grant, looking at all these situations and recognizing that we have to move ourselves forward in order for us to achieve our potential or what we said we're going to do.
WINFREY: And the truth of the matter is, Emmett Till became a symbol for those times, as Trayvon Martin has become a symbol for this time. I mean, there are multiple Trayvon Martins whose names never make the newspapers or the headlines. The circumstances surrounding that allowed it to be, but there were multiple Emmett Tills. There were multiple lynchings. There were multiple, you know, young black boys...
WINFREY: ... whose names are not remembered and often not even reported.
COOPER: It's interesting to me, though, how people from different backgrounds see this. I talked to a juror on the Trayvon Martin case, who clearly did not understand or did not feel linked to Trayvon Martin; felt connected to George Zimmerman in a way but not to Trayvon Martin. And I wonder if she felt race was not part of this case at all. I'm just wondering...
WINFREY: People feel that it's race, because they don't call it race. That's not what they call it. They don't say, oh -- because you know what I found, too? A lot of people, if think they're not using the "N" word themselves, they actually physically are not using the "N" word themselves and do not have -- harbor ill will towards black people, that it's not racist. But, you know, to me it's ridiculous to look at that case and think that race wasn't involved.
COOPER: It's interesting. You talk about the "N" word. In the film, it's used very early on. But what's fascinating, it's not just used by the guys on the plantation. It's used by LBJ, and which in those LBJ recordings you hear him use it. And in the film, there's a scene where people in the kitchen are saying -- are seeing him on TV saying "negro."
And somebody says, like, "When did he start -- when did he start to use that word?"
COOPER: "He always uses the 'N' word."
WINFREY: The "N" word, right.
COOPER: So was that hard for you? I mean, I know you've spoken publicly about...
COOPER: ... the importance of not using that word.
WINFREY: I think it depends on the context of the time which you were raised. I was raised in the '60s and...
COOPER: In Mississippi.
WINFREY: And I a child -- not only that, I'm a student of my history. I have said this many times. It's not a part of who I am to use that word. I understand why other people do.
It's impossible for me to do it, because I know the history. And I know that, for so many of my relatives, whom I don't know, who I don't know by name, people who I am connected to, my ancestors, that was the last word they heard as they were being strung up by a tree. That was the last sense of degradation that they experienced as, you know, some harm was caused to them. I just -- it's just not a part of the fabric of who I am.
So out of respect to those who have come before, and the price that they paid to rid themselves of being relegated to that word, I just don't use it.
COOPER: We had a fascinating conversation. We'll have more on my interview with Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker tomorrow on 360. "Lee Daniels' The Butler" opens in theaters tomorrow.
Just ahead, the custody battle over Veronica may be nearing a breaking point. The little girl whose adoptive parents are in Oklahoma tonight to try to bring their daughter home. The lawyers for both sides are talking. Randi Kaye has new details on those talks ahead.
COOPER: A big smile from one of the youngest Boston bombing victims. How Jane Richard and her family are doing four months after the nightmare, ahead on "360."
COOPER: Tonight, the bitter custody battle over a little girl named Veronica is coming to a head in Oklahoma. Veronica turns 4 next month. We've been covering her story for years. We first knew her as baby Veronica, and we've watched her grow into a toddler. Now a preschooler.
Tonight, the standoff was set in motion by a Supreme Court ruling in June. It opened the door to returning Veronica to her adoptive parents who live in South Carolina. They raised Veronica for the first three years of her life.
For the past 19 months, however, Veronica has been living in Oklahoma with her biological father, who is part Cherokee. He challenged Veronica's adoption under federal law aimed at keeping Indian families together.
Her biological father has already defied a court order to return Veronica to the adoptive parents. He was arrested and posted bond. The adoptive parents are in Oklahoma right now, demanding to take Veronica -- to take her home with them. Neither side is backing down. Randi Kaye joins me now.
So Randi, what's the latest?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, just more twists and turns to report tonight, Anderson, here from Tulsa, Oklahoma. As you said, we've been following this story for years.
The Capobiancos came here. They've been desperate to get their little girl back. They hoped to bring her from Oklahoma back to South Carolina, and all they've found here is just more stonewalling, and the standoff continues.
But tonight, the big news. We spoke to the attorney for Dustin Brown, the biological father. And he told us tonight that he is offering a face-to-face meeting with Veronica and the Capobiancos. Now, the Capobiancos have not committed to that. They haven't said yes. They want to know where it is, what the circumstances are. They don't want Dustin Brown there. They want just some one-on-one time with Veronica.
I also asked the attorney, well, what does this mean? Does this mean that he's willing to hand over custody now, finally, to the Capobiancos? He said absolutely not. The attorney says his client will take this all the way to the Oklahoma courts. He is going to fight this tooth and nail to the end.
He just says that this is simply about letting the Capobiancos see her again, get reacquainted her, say hello to her, spend some time with her. He said that there are a lot of steps that need to be taken if -- and he said if, Anderson -- if she's never going to be handed back over to the Capobiancos.
COOPER: But the Supreme Court has ruled on this. What about law enforcement? Can they help try to move this along or go get Veronica to return her to the adoptive parents?
KAYE: That's what we wanted to know. We interviewed the sheriff in Nowata County today, where Veronica lives, and he told us that if the Capobiancos have any intention of coming there in the middle of the night or in the cover of darkness to try and get Veronica, he will arrest them and charge them with kidnapping.
He also said he's not taking sides, but he is not about to arrest Dustin Brown, even though there is a warrant out for his arrest in South Carolina related to this custody handover. I also asked him, why can't you just get Veronica and return her to the Capobiancos, who according to the courts, are her legal parents. And this is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Why can't you just go and get Veronica and bring her back to her adoptive parents?
SHERIFF JAMES HALLETT, NOWATA COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE. The sheriff's office can only enforce state statutes and orders of the court, which is followed along the same lines.
So we cannot pick up a child and just give them to those people on South Carolina's say so. They have to file a certain paper and do an adoption, file the right paperwork here to get their child back. Or if that is their child.
KAYE: Even though South Carolina's court has said that the adoption is final and she belongs to them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: I also asked that attorney for Dustin Brown today to respond to the Capobiancos' plan. They've been saying all along, "We are not going to leave Oklahoma without her. And he asked me very sarcastically, are they planning to shop for a house here, are they planning to buy a house? I other words, indicating they're in for a very long fight, Anderson.
COOPER: And s it clear where Veronica is?
KAYE: Not really. I mean, we went to Dustin Brown's house today. There was a truck in the driveway. We knocked on the door. There weren't any children's toys outside. Nobody came to the door.
But I can tell you that there is someone who's friendly with the Capobiancos. He called himself a reunion facilitator. He's done this before.
He actually got a tip where Dustin Brown was. He went there. Turns out he's on tribal land in this house. He was stopped by tribal marshals. He sent a note through the marshals, trying to create a dialog without the lawyers, just have a conversation with Dustin Brown about this, and Dustin Brown sent a message back: "I have no interest in talking to you." That was through the tribal marshals. So all we know is that Veronica could be in that house, on tribal land. Supposedly, she's with her biological grandparents. That's what Dustin Brown has been telling us all along.
COOPER: Difficult case. Randi, thanks.
There's a lot more we're following tonight. Susan Hendricks joins us with a 360 News and Business Bulletin -- Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, the National Security Agency reportedly has broken privacy rules thousands of times every year since 2008, mostly involving surveillance of Americans or foreign intelligence targets inside the United States. That's according to "The Washington Post," citing an internal audit and other documents that former NSA contractor, Edward Snowden, gave the newspaper earlier this summer.
Now the "Post" says most incidents were unintentional, for instance, intercepting calls because of typos in the area code.
The NTSB found no evidence of engine failure or a fire aboard the UPS cargo plane before it crashed in Birmingham, Alabama. Investigators hope to uncover clues from the crash from the flight data recorders that were recovered from the burnt wreckage.
A "360 Follow" now, a picture of determination. That is how Boston bombing victim Jane Richard, with her new prosthetic leg. Take a look here.
Her family says they're inspired by her recovery, but they also admit the emotional pain of losing Jane's brother, Martin, in the attack is, quote, "every bit as new as it was four months ago." That is Martin on the far right.
Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Susan, thanks.
In tonight's "American Journey," one city's plan to try to attract more immigrants. St. Louis, Missouri, has far fewer immigrants than other U.S. cities of its size, but a program called the Mosaic Project is trying to change that. Tom Foreman reports.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Frozen yogurt is a hot commodity amid the summer heat of St. Louis, and nobody is happier about that than Jason Jan. When he came from Malaysia 15 years ago, he'd hoped to open a business, and now he has a string of places like this and nothing but praise for his adopted home.
JASON JAN, FROZEN YOGURT BUSINESS OWNER: Great city to raise my kids, and most importantly, it has been very immigrant friendly.
FOREMAN: That is a message local leaders are desperate to get out, ever since a study found this city lags far behind in attracting immigrants. The nonprofit International Institute here serves 7,000 a year. That's half as many as expected in a town this size. The institute is now a key component in the Mosaic Project, an ambitious plan to make this area much more inviting to immigrants.
CHARLIE DOOLEY, ST. LOUIS COUNTY EXECUTIVE: St. Louis wants to be a welcoming community, and that's what we're going to do.
FOREMAN: That's county executive Charlie Dooley and mayor Francis Slay.
FRANCIS SLAY, MAYOR, ST. LOUIS: Our goal is to be one of the top ten cities of America in terms of increase of population of foreign-born residents by the year 2020 (ph).
FOREMAN: So the city is helping immigrants connect with loans, opportunities, education. This is not just a feel-good measure. A study found immigrants are more likely to open businesses, create jobs, raise wages, and pursue higher degrees than the general population.
And in places like Washington University in St. Louis, the plan is working for many foreign-born students.
BO BI, STUDENT: This place is getting more and more closer to my home. I mean, that is a very strong feeling.
FOREMAN (on camera): You could stay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I could stay.
FOREMAN: It's still early in this plan, and leaders are feeling their way through the process. But they're convinced that tens of thousands of jobs could hang in the balance.
(voice-over): As for Jason Jan, well, the jobs he's created may be permanent. He's applied to become a U.S. citizen.
Tom Foreman, CNN, St. Louis.
COOPER: We'll be right back.
COOPER: Ran out of time for "The RidicuList" tonight. That does it for this edition of 360. Thanks for watching. "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: "OUTFRONT" next, the Dow drops again. Almost 350 points in two days. We're going to tell you what is behind the plunge.