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Interview With Florida Congressman Thomas Rooney; Will Syria Give Up Control of Chemical Weapons?

Aired September 10, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Huge breaking developments regarding whether the U.S. will strike Syria, first comes from the meeting President Obama has just had with lawmakers as he was on Capitol Hill today. Live pictures, here he is walking through the halls on Capitol Hill. He's talking to a lot of folks. He is asking, essentially, the senators to delay a vote to authorize a strike to give the latest diplomatic option this chance.

That option leads us to the second headline here. This comes from this Russian news service agency Interfax. It reports that Syria is ready to reveal the location of its chemical weapons. Keep in mind, Bashar al-Assad has thus denied even having them -- so, that's new -- also agreed to halt production and show their facilities to representatives of Russia and the United Nations.

Still, the president's top officials insist Syria's agreement to hand over control of its massive stockpile of these weapons is even more reason to keep the threat of U.S. force real. They spoke to the House Armed Services Committee earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: A lot of people say that nothing focuses the mind like the prospect of a hanging. Well, it's the credible threat of force that has been on the table for these last weeks that has for the first time brought this regime to even acknowledge that they have a chemical weapons arsenal.

CHUCK HAGEL, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We must be very clear-eyed and ensure it is not a stalling tactic by Syria and its Russian patrons. And for this diplomatic option to have a chance at succeeding, the threat of a U.S. military action, the credible, real threat of U.S. military action must continue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash and our senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh.

Dana, I have seen your flurry of e-mails. There are a lot of moving parts right now on this story. What else do you know about the president wanting to delay the vote?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I should tell you that he did just leave his second and final meeting here at the Capitol. He met in total with pretty much all the senators, Democrats first and then Republicans.

The gist of his message, I'm told by several Democratic senators in the first lunch, was give me more time. That effectively means delay this vote. We should say that that's already been happening. That already was done, and we reported that yesterday, by the Senate majority leader in consultation with the president.

Still, the fact that the president made clear he wants to give this diplomatic move more time is certainly noteworthy. But the other thing I'm told by several senators who were in that room and other sources who were in the room with the president is in the same breath said don't pull that rug out from under me, meaning keep the threat of military action alive, because that's the only way we're going to push forward on any diplomatic action.

Effectively, what that means is there's a pause button here. But let's just also give you a reality check. That is still the votes aren't there at this point for military action. You have seen more and more senators come out throughout even today leading up to tonight's speech by the president, even some of the most loyal Democrats.

Ed Markey of Massachusetts who is even in the Senate, only in the Senate because he took John Kerry's seat, he came out against it. That is the reality he's up against. He's up against the fact Congress probably wouldn't authorize it. It's easier for him to say hit the pause button because nobody's in a rush to take a vote that, A., they don't want to take and that won't pass.

BALDWIN: With all of that, I'm so mindful of these presidential speechwriters who are writing and erasing, writing and erasing based upon all these moving parts today.

I'm just curious, with the lawmakers you talked to, those senators on both sides of the aisle, did they get any kind of detail or even just the tone from the president as far as really the message he's going to drive home tonight?

BASH: Some senators said his tone, at least in these private meetings, was somber. Another source just e-mailed me who was in the room saying this whole thing clearly weighs on him. It just seems to me that that is the kind of message he's going to put forward this evening. You're right, there's no question the speechwriters are probably redoing things big time.

But my sense is also that, big picture, his message here to the senators is probably not going to be much different to what he is going to say tonight, which is still the moral cause, this needs to be dealt with. If we can do it diplomatically, great, but we need to make sure what is happening is real and we also need to make sure that from his perspective the only reason things anything might be moving diplomatically is because of the threat of force here. That's probably the kind of message we're going to hear tonight.

BALDWIN: OK. And then Nick Paton Walsh, to you with at United Nations. Here we have these two huge bit of news today, the fact that according to this Russian news agency, Syria will announce where their chemical weapons are, A., and, B., that they would sign this chemical weapons convention, this treaty banning the use, the production, the stockpiling of chemical weapons.

But, again, I use this word skeptical. Should the world not be skeptical when it comes to this news?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly. We have to actually hear yet directly from anyone apart from a Russian state- backed news agency that this is going to be the case. But that would sound like they're going to join and adhere to the rules of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, which is pretty much what everyone here has been trying to push them towards.

But it's been a very complex day here at the U.N. It started out with the French pushing their version of the resolution and meeting with members of the Security Council. That contained a lot of things the Russians -- regime for the gas attacks of August 21, the suggestion that people who did that should be sent to the International Criminal Court and also the threat of "serious consequences" if Syria didn't move fast enough to give its weapons, chemical weapons over to international control.

But it's got really confusing today. The Russians called at 4:00 today an emergency consultation with the U.N. Security Council. Most people thinking that was to discuss their version of a text for a resolution. And then according to U.N. diplomats we have spoken to in the last half-hour, they have canceled that meeting. No signs it's coming again.

What we may be seeing here, if this is not sustained brinksmanship and kind of Russian chess, if you like, at a diplomatic level, what we may be seeing here is the Russians thinking, well, we didn't like the French resolution, we don't like all the threats that are implicit in what the West is trying to get us and Syria to sign on to, so let's just go ahead unilaterally and get the Syrians to say they will surrender their chemical weapons, to join these various international treaties can, and then perhaps there's a win/win and we haven't got the threat of force perhaps hanging over them and internationally sanctioned if it doesn't go at the speed the West would like.

BALDWIN: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you very much at the United Nations.

I want to go back to Washington and turn to a member of Congress. Here he is, Tom Rooney, a Republican from Florida. He serves on the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, great to see you. Thank you so much for joining me.

And if I may, I just want to get you out of the gate on the record commenting on this breaking news here out of Russia that Syria says it is ready to disclose its chemical weapons sites and apparently sign this ban of chemical weapons. REP. THOMAS ROONEY (R), FLORIDA: Yes. You know, obviously anything that keeps us from sending potentially our men and women into a third war in the Middle East, even though Secretary Kerry says that's not the plan, I fear as a former military officer and somebody who sits on these committees, like Intelligence and been on Armed Services, that once you do that, that the retaliation is going to be such that it will become an international event very quickly, whether to Israel, or Jordan, or Turkey, that it will turn into a third major war in the Middle East.

So anything like this that obviously we have to verify, obviously we have to get buy-in from the U.N. and people can verify that what they're saying they're going to do is really going to happen. I think that it should be explored.

BALDWIN: I'm also curious, as you mentioned, as a former military officer, are you talking to any of our great men and women, service men and women about, you know, the possibility again, we're hearing from the administration, you know, that they may be hitting pause on a vote, but still the administration wants the pressure on, the possibility a strike could still be viable. What are your colleagues telling you?

ROONEY: You know, you're the first person to ask me that question. And I have given about 100 interviews on this issue.

And, yes, to answer your question, yes, I personally e-mailed or texted probably about 50 of my friends that are still wearing the uniform just to sort of see, like, hey, guys, I'm not going to give your names or say what your thoughts are, but how do you feel about this? And it was literally 50-0. Nobody wants to engage in this civil war in Syria.

Certainly, if it went outside the borders, that would be a different story with, you know, our allies being involved if that ever came to be. But strictly within the borders of Syria, a Sunni/Shia civil war is just not something that any of them -- and these are now they're getting to be colonels and the like.

I thought it was very telling. And I'm glad you asked me that question.

BALDWIN: Thank you. I thought it was pertinent to your position.

And let me just sort of also ask this. I know you have not met with the president. He was meeting with both -- with the senators on both sides of the aisle today, just left that second meeting, but that if you had the president in front of you and if you are skeptical, what would your question number one be to him?

ROONEY: Again, he said in an interview yesterday in one of his many interviews that there's not a direct imminent threat to the United States. He said that.

You know, he has said, and Secretary Kerry said that this is in our national interests. I'm having a difficult time divorcing the two, that it's not a direct imminent threat, but it is a national security interest. Those two things are too far apart for me to reconcile, where with Kerry and the president they seem to be one in the same.

So, I think what he has to do tonight, and I think what he has to do with people like me, I wish he would have come and talked to the House today, by the way, is to say to us, look, this is not only in our national security interest, but it gets to an imminent threat to the United States by connecting this dot to this dot, so now you can see why it's so important. He hasn't done that for me.

BALDWIN: Congressman Tom Rooney, thank you so much for joining me from the Hill. I appreciate it. We will all be watching the president tonight. Appreciate you.

CNN's special coverage of the president's prime-time address begins tonight at 7:00 Eastern starting with "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" and then "ANDERSON COOPER," followed by Wolf Blitzer. He will be the one anchoring the president's speech. So tune in at 7:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

When it comes to this plan, is Russia bluffing? Is this a stall tactic? We're going to talk to a former CIA officer who says this is an attempt to keep Bashar al-Assad in power. Much more on our breaking news this afternoon as the world gets ready to hear directly from the president of the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Syria reportedly says it's ready to disclose the location of its chemical weapons, ready to stop production and show facilities to Russia, United Nations representatives. This is according to Interfax, this Russian news agency, news that's just breaking this hour.

Now all this comes after Syria accepted Russia's proposal for Assad's regime to place its chemical weapons under international control. The Obama administration says it is willing to listen to the Russian proposal, but has no desire to have this thing dragged out.

Here is Secretary of State John Kerry from today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: Assad's chief benefactor, the Russians, have responded by saying that they would come up with a proposal to do exactly that, and we have made it clear to them, I have in several conversations with Foreign Minister Lavrov, that this cannot be a process of delay, this cannot be a process of avoidance, that it has to be real, it has to be measurable, tangible.

And it is exceedingly difficult, I want everybody here to know, to fulfill those conditions. But we're waiting for that proposal. But we're not waiting for long.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I want to talk about Russia's role in all of this with Art Keller. He's a former CIA officer and terrorism analyst.

Art, welcome. You're the expert. You know all about Putin, the man, the leader. What's the likelihood with all of the news today that Russia's bluffing?

ARTHUR KELLER, RETIRED CIA AGENT: Well, I think it is -- in some respects, it's a genuine proposal in that they have been looking for some way to put the brakes on any proposed U.S. action.

I don't think Vladimir Putin has been particularly happy about the fact that, you know, they have been saying there will be repercussions for U.S. action and we have basically been ignoring them. So, you know, they immediately seized on this proposal as a way to kind of become a power broker and another player in the game again.

BALDWIN: When I think Russia and I think Russia/U.S. relations most recently, I think of Ed Snowden, right? Here, we have this wanted man in the United States. And here Russia and Putin say, OK, you can hang here for a while in Russia.

Give me another example of the U.S. saying one thing and Russia doing the other.

KELLER: Well, the list is fairly endless. There's a reason why President Obama declined to meet with Vladimir Putin at the G20 summit, because there was so little that can be agreed between the U.S. and Russia anymore.

Something that I have been covering recently was one of the biggest hacking scandals in the world, hackers who stole tens of millions of dollars. And the Russian police would not cooperate with helping the FBI and others arrest the hackers. So we just kind of have gotten used to Russia doing its best to foil U.S. foreign policy at every turn.

BALDWIN: You were, sir, you were with the CIA Counterproliferation Division, the Iraq Survey Group back in 2003 designed to track down, at the time, weapons of mass destruction. Suppose the United States ever, you know, agreed to this proposal from Syria in surrendering these chemical weapons. We know it won't be easy. You're the expert on this as well. How would that even happen, practically?

KELLER: Well, the devil is really in the details when it comes to doing arms inspections and policing up and getting rid of something as dangerous as this.

In the U.S.' own history, it took decades to get rid of our stockpile of lethal agents. And that wasn't in the midst of a civil war. Our history of trying to do arms inspections under hostile conditions is very, very tricky.

The devil in the details in particular is, would the Syrians grant access to international inspectors to talk to all of their military personnel, all their scientists to help verify a complete inventory has been obtained? You know, that was one of the problems the first go-around in the first Gulf War is Saddam more or less said to his scientists, you know, anyone who shares the real details, you know, that's it for you.

So Bashar al-Assad still has power. He can still do that threat implicitly.

BALDWIN: Right, your point being Bashar al-Assad may say one thing, but tell his scientists, hey, chemical weapons over there and over there, don't tell them about it. Who knows if the world really wants to take Syria and Assad at his word.

KELLER: Exactly.

BALDWIN: Finally, though, if and when this process begins, quickly, Art, what's in it long term for Russia and for Putin?

KELLER: Well, you know, he's been seeking to revive Russia's image as a world power. And so any time you can participate in making that kind of thing happen, that counts as a plus in their column.

They haven't really been instrumental in making too many large agreements happen. Their influence on, for instance, North Korea has been so marginal, they haven't really done anything in terms of helping the U.S. and regional allies deal with North Korea.

So I think they're just looking to revive their status as a great power. And if they can make this happen and it doesn't fall apart into something that just can't be executed because of the complexity of the details that we have talked about, then that will count as a win for Russia.

BALDWIN: Art Keller, thank you very much.

Coming up, a defector out of the Syrian regime out today insisting this Russian proposal will not stop Bashar al-Assad from killing. You will hear from him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Breaking news here on Syria as we have learned that according to this Russian news agency, this Interfax news agency, that Syria, A., has agreed to essentially tell the world where its massive chemical weapons stockpile is, and, B., that they would be willing to sign the chemical weapons convention. That's the treaty banning the use, the stockpile, the production of chemical weapons.

Let's to CNN's Arwa Damon, who's covering this story for us out of Beirut.

Arwa, on top of the breaking news that we're learning today, we have also heard from this detector coming out and essentially saying despite all of that, that doesn't mean Assad will stop his killing.

ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And that's been exactly what we have been hearing, Brooke, from just about all members of the opposition, saying that it's one thing to be talking about the regime giving up its stockpiles of chemical weapons, if, in fact, it does fully comply and allow full access and all the other challenges that come with even trying to recover one of the world's largest chemical stockpiles in the world in the middle of a fierce battle zone.

You also have the reality that Syrians have been dealing with for the last two-and-a-half years, and that is the 100,000-plus people, including children, who have been killed using chemical weapons.

Now, this particular defector, we have been waiting for him to show up in Turkey for a few days now, actually. He is the former chief medical officer in Aleppo. And he had been compiling intelligence, medical analysis, he said, on an alleged chemical attack that took place in that province back in March. This is also one of the areas that the U.N. inspections team was supposed to be visiting when they were in Syria back in August. But just listen to how he described that attack back in March.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABDELTAWWAB SHAHROUR, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER OF ALEPPO (through translator): All had problems in breathing, foaming. Eyes were in shock. A number had blurred vision. Members of the medical team, me, myself, we suffered from -- we were affected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DAMON: You have that testimony, Brooke. You have the numerous testimonies and those absolutely heart-wrenching videos that emerged from Syria following that August 21 alleged chemical attack.

But let's also not forget the videos that we continuously see every single day of the killing and the suffering of the Syrian people.

BALDWIN: Arwa Damon for us in neighboring Lebanon, Arwa, thank you very much.

Coming up here, as the situation and all these moving parts and pieces on Syria continue to percolate today and change, the president's speechwriters must be in scramble mode before tonight's address with Russia and Syria listening. We will take a look at the potential traps of language and message.

Also ahead, Apple unveiling its two iPhones this afternoon. We will get you caught up on all the surprises.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, breaking news here out of Syria, specifically from this Russian news agency.

We are learning that Syria is now saying, OK to the world, we will let you know where our chemical weapons stockpiles are located. Keep in mind, until this, Bashar al-Assad has denied even having these chemical weapons. And, two, according to this report, they have reportedly agreed to sign this chemical weapons convention basically banning all use, production, stockpiling of chemical weapons.

And we heard from Capitol Hill as the president has just left his second meeting with members of Congress, specifically senators. Here's the video from a short time ago and the president meeting with both Republicans and Democrats, essentially saying to them, we're going to give diplomacy a chance. We're going to delay the vote on a possible U.S. strike and just wait and see if diplomacy can actually happen.

Let's go to the White House to Jim Acosta, our senior White House correspondent.

Jim, this all started, what was it, yesterday morning in London with this, you know, so-called goof from this official, from John Kerry. But there was apparently so much more going on behind the scenes.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Not so goofy anymore, Brooke.

As it turns out, U.S. and Russian officials, according to a senior administration official, have been talking about this for months, that this is something Presidents Obama and Putin have been talking about, that both leaders appointed their diplomatic point persons to deal with this, John Kerry for the U.S., Sergei Lavrov for the Russians, and that those two diplomatic leaders have been talking about this for several weeks.

It came up again at the G20. And according to a senior administration official, when John Kerry was asked this question yesterday, Brooke, he answered the question honestly and basically said, yes, if Assad wants to give up his weapons, we will wait and see.

Well, as soon as that comment was made, I'm told by a senior administration official, Kerry had a prearranged phone call with Lavrov that was supposed to take place. He gets on the phone with Lavrov. Lavrov says, those are interesting comments. Kerry says, well, come back to us with something that is credible.

And then, hours later, the Russians come back with that proposal. And according to this administration official, this was then batted back and forth between the White House and the State Department.