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New Day

Shooting Incident Occurs in Chicago; Congress Faces Looming Government Shutdown; Iranian President Makes Overtures to U.S.; Syria Reportedly Moving Chemical Weapons; Pope Francis Gives In-Depth Interview; Interview with Bill Donohue Regarding the Pope's Remarks

Aired September 20, 2013 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Happy Friday. Welcome back to NEW DAY. It's September 20th, 7:00 in the east. We have brand new developments this morning in the Washington Navy yard shooting. We have learned that the firm that looked into the shooter's background also vetted NSA leaker Edward Snowden and Okayed both of them. We're also learning more about the time line of the shooting and we'll tell you all about it.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And also, Pope Francis making waves again in a new interview, he criticizes the church for spending too much time focusing on gays and focusing on abortion and not enough time expanding the role of women in the church. We'll take you live to Rome and we'll also be joined in studio by the president of the Catholic League to get his reaction.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Talk about an awkward moment, cameras catch it midway when the priest turns to the very same photographers and tells them to knock it off. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a solemn assembly, not a photography session. Please move, or I will stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: So -- look at the awkward faces. What does the couple have to say now? We'll hear from them, coming up.

CUOMO: They were joined in that moment even before they were joined.

We'll begin this morning with breaking news.

BOLDUAN: We are breaking with breaking news overnight. Gunfire and bloodshed on the streets of Chicago. A hail of bullets flying through the park on Chicago's south side last night, 13 people shot, four of them in critical condition this morning, include a three-year-old boy. Let's get straight to George Howell for the latest. He's live in Chicago. Hi there, George.

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate, good morning. That three- year-old boy still in the hospital this morning, shot in the head. This happened in an area called the back of the yards neighborhood on the city's south side, an area known for gang violence. Again a mass shooting that sent several people, 13, to the hospital, and certainly put Chicago violence back on the map.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL: A three-year-old boy fighting for his life this morning in critical condition, following a terrifying mass shooting in Chicago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had multiple victims shot which were transported to various hospitals throughout the city.

HOWELL: And 13 people were shot last night on a basketball court on the city's south side. So far, none of the victims have died. They're all recovering in various states of condition. The three- year-old child whose name has not been released was shot in the head, carried in the arms of three officers to an ambulance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were a lot of police, a lot of ambulance, just a lot of wreckage, a lot of people, everything.

HOWELL: Officers swarmed the pack after the gruesome shooting using hoses to clean the blood from the court. Police believe the shooting is gang-related but have no suspects in custody.

This incident puts Chicago violence back in the spotlight. President Obama addressed the violence in his home city earlier this year in his state of the union address less than a month after the shooting death of 15-year-old Hadiya Pendleton, killed a week after she attended the president's inauguration ceremony.

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What happened to Hadiya is not unique, it's not to Chicago, it's not unique to this country. Too many of our children are being taken away from us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL: When you hear about a shooting like this, a situation like this, it's important to put it in perspective. We know there were 1,600 shoot innings Chicago this year alone, 315 people who were killed by gun violence. Just last year, the FBI says there were more than 500 people murdered in Chicago, however, Chicago police insist the murder rate here is going down. In this particular case, this mass shooting, we know that investigators, they are looking for a suspect or suspects involved. But at this point, Chris, no one in custody.

CUOMO: All right, George, thank you very much for the report this morning.

It will be a big day ahead in the nation's capital. It's only ten days until a potential government shutdown. The House is set to vote on a Bill to keep the lights on, conditioned on a huge if, the funding of Obama care. They want to defund. That's their big if. Can they get it done? They're fighting amongst themselves about this. Jim Acosta is covering from the White House for us. Jim, good morning. JIM ACOSTA, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris. The House Republicans have voted more than 40 times to defund Obamacare and later this morning they will do it again. This time to continue voting to fund the government at the same time stripping the money out of the president's health care law. And now the White House says the president is about to jump into the shutdown fray.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: With House Republicans setting a vote for today on a temporary spending bill that would defund Obamacare, Washington is edging closer to a government shutdown. Now just 10 days until the government runs out of money and a possible debt default not far behind, White House officials say President Obama is ready to engage with congress.

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president will be in conversations with congressional leaders in the coming days about the need to deal with these pressing deadlines.

ACOSTA: That was a response to House Speaker John Boehner who complained in this web video the president is more willing to haggle with Russians than Republicans.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER, (R) HOUSE SPEAKER: While the president is happy to negotiate with Vladimir Putin, he won't engage with the Congress on a plan that deals with the deficits that threaten our economy.

ACOSTA: Ruling out negotiations over the debt ceiling or legislation that defunds Obamacare, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney offered this colorful defense of the president's outreach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're obviously referring to Speaker Boehner's video, is that right? Saying the president is more willing to negotiate with Vladimir Putin than he is with house Republicans.

CARNEY: That is irrefutably false. The video I thought demonstrated Putin envy.

ACOSTA: The White House was instead taking note of the bruising battle inside the GOP. Texas Senator Ted Cruz seemed to give up on defunding Obama care, then appeared to recourse and promised to block any spending bill that leaves health care reform intact.

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: I will do everything necessary and anything possible to defund Obamacare.

ACOSTA: But some of Cruz's fellow Republicans, including a blunt John McCain, shot back, saying that's just not rational.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: In the United States Senate we will not repeal or defund Obamacare. We will not.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: Later today, President Obama will be in Kansas City for a campaign-style event on the White House economy. White House official says the president will go after the Republicans for threatening a government shutdown. And of course it's surprise, Kate, the administration says the president will veto that legislation pending before the House today.

BOLDUAN: That is almost a certainty. That's for sure.

ACOSTA: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Jim, thank you so much.

Joining us now to talk more is CNN political analyst and executive of the "Daily Beast," John Avlon. John, it's great to see you. Happy Friday. So I just want to get your take on where things stand and what you see in this. As John King was saying, he's hearing that this isn't going to ping pong once. It's going to ping pong back and forth. There's another play that the House Republicans will possibly make in this fight as we couldn't the down. Where do Republicans see a win here? Seriously.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That's a really important point, because I don't think anyone has an idea of what a win looks like other than the fantasy the president will cave and defund his signature accomplishment. That is delusional. That is not going to happen. You have an extreme form of positional bargaining without any degree of practicality or actually looking out about governing. This is about positioning, ideology, this is all about playing to the base. It's not about actually governing to a place.

BOLDUAN: If we get beyond the threat of a government shutdown, the next fight is over the debt ceiling. The last time we were talking about the debt ceiling I was on Capitol Hill, sleeping on Capitol Hill covering all of those negotiations over and over again.

AVLON: Yes.

BOLDUAN: We were also talking about the idea of a grand bargain, coming together to bring down our deficit and debt. There is no talk about it this time.

AVLON: No. And that's a sign of just how far things have fallen. Even for Speaker Boehner, who is a consummate dealmaker, we have now a situation where the inmates are running the asylum. The leadership realizes they are running towards a cliff they realize is politically damaging, economically damaging, very little upside. But if they don't give in to the demands of the 50 or so House radicals pushing this direction, they fear they may lose their position. So there is no talk of a grand bargain because there is no outcome they are to leverage the president on to bring down the debt. The debt is falling right now.

BOLDUAN: John, real quick, Democrats are not angels in this fight.

AVLON: No, no, no.

BOLDUAN: The Democrats are happy to sit back and watch this infighting amongst the Republicans here.

AVLON: There are 80 different reasons that this is dumb and bad for the country. Bug the key one is, if we have a government shutdown, the Democrats are going to look to the playbook of the 1990s where it actually helped President Clinton and ended effectively the Gingrich Republican revolution.

So the president realizes it would be bad for the country and further reduce trust in government, but it probably helps Democrats politically. But the Republican infighting here is really an implosion that hurts them. And the fact they can't stop this or move in a clear, constructive direction, that is a sign of just how dangerous the situation has gotten inside the GOP civil war.

BOLDUAN: A problem for the future for the Republican Party.

AVLON: A huge problem for the country and the future the Republican Party.

BOLDUAN: John, great to see you. The one thing that is lost in all this is the people that will actually be affected, the American people.

CUOMO: Yes, have to keep saying that.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right.

CUOMO: Obviously some people aren't hearing that just yet.

All right, now to a charm offensive out of Iran. It turns out Iran's new president is trying to buddy up to president Obama. Yes, the two leaders have exchanged letters as Hassan Rouhani prepares for a trip to the U.N. Is a meeting with President Obama possible? Chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto is in Washington with that. Is this right, the words coming out of my mouth?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Chris, U.S. officials I've spoken to are listening. But they do say it is premature to call this a genuine shift in policy by Iran. That said, taken together the exchange of letters with President Obama, the invitation to President Obama to meet, even this outreach on Twitter, some see it as the most significant diplomatic overture from Iran since the 1979 revolution.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Iran's new president is taking his diplomatic outreach to the pages of "The Washington Post," making a, quote, "pledge to engage in constructive interaction with the world," and offering to broker peace talks in Syria. On Thursday he tweeted an invitation to President Obama, saying he has not ruled out the possibility of meeting with him at the U.N. General Assembly in New York next week, adding, quote, "Everything is possible in the world of politics." The White House acknowledges a change in tone from Iran.

CARNEY: There have been a lot of very interesting things said out of Tehran and the new government, and encouraging things. But actions are more important than words.

SCIUTTO: Rouhani's invitation is the latest in the surprising and unprecedented outreach that began with another tweet two weeks ago, wishing the world's Jews a happy Rosh Hashanah holiday. Rouhani then put on the table the issue at the center of his country's tension with the west, insisting it has no intention of building a nuclear weapon. At home Tehran released one of its most prominent dissidents, though hundreds more are still in prison. What's behind the change of heart? Some believe it is largely the product of international economic sanctions over Iran's nuclear program.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Rouhani is trying to do is to get those sanctions reduced. The question is whether there's a halfway meeting point in which Iran can make meaningful nuclear compromises in exchange for meaningful sanctions relief from the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Next week on Tuesday, the Iranian president will address the U.N. General Assembly, so will President Obama. It's become something of an annual ritual to have a fiery, inflammatory speech in New York by the Iranian president. This year, Kate, we may be hearing something different.

BOLDUAN: Very different. Jim, thank you so much.

Questions remain this morning about how Aaron Alexis managed to get security clearance at the Washington Navy yard. We're learning now that the same firm that gave Alexis his background check also checked out another notorious contractor, NSA leaker Edward Snowden. We're also getting a better picture of the time line of how the shooting played out. For that let's turn to Pamela Brown, who has been following this from the very beginning for us.

PAMELA BORWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Kate. New details are emerging, forming a clear preliminary timeline of how Aaron Alexis carried out his rampage Monday morning, an intense, chaos filled hour- and-a-half inside the Washington Navy yard's building 197.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BORWN: Officials now say that Aaron Alexis responded for the first time on surveillance video, parked in his car at the garage at 8:01. Two minutes later, Alexis is seen exiting the fourth floor elevator of building 197 and entering a bathroom with a bag. Minutes later he emerges with a sawed off Remington 870 shotgun. At 8:12, the first shots are fired on the fourth floor.

He then goes down a stairwell, emerging on the third floor, seemingly picking his victims at random. Alexis then heads to the first floor, shooting a security guard and taking his handgun. Investigators say he ran out of ammo and used the guard's gun to continue shooting victims. Around 8:20, the first officers arrive on the scene, followed by tactical teams some 20 minutes later. We now know law enforcement engaged Alexis multiple times, at one point he was hiding in an office, the carnage finally coming to an end when he was shot and killed.

We're also learning this morning that USIS, the government contractor that handled Alexis' background check, is the same firm that vetted NSA leaker Edward Snowden. The company is now under criminal investigation.

This as new details about Alexis's mental state are revealed. Just last month, police in Rhode Island say Alexis told them that three people were following him in a Virginia airport, keeping him awake by talking to him and sending vibrations into his body.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BORWN: Still no clear motive for why Alexis carried out his rampage. This as families of the victim prepare for Sunday's memorial service with President Obama. Chris and Kate?

BOLDUAN: Thanks so much, Pamela.

CUOMO: We're following a lot of news this morning. We want to get to Michaela because we do have new information out of Syria.

PEREIRA: Yes, we do. CNN has learned the Assad regime in Syria is apparently moving its stockpile of chemical weapons. Administration officials saying it happened in the recent days. It's not clear, though, if the weapons are being moved to consolidate them in one location or rather to conceal them. Syria has agreed to turn its chemical weapons over to international monitors.

Back here at home we have now learned that a seventh person has died in Colorado from that epic flooding there. Authorities say an 80- year-old man made it to a shelter but went back home to look for his wife. She survived. Tragically he did not. Three other people are missing and presumed dead. A new concern in the area, oil and gas spills. Officials are keeping a close eye on ten of them in those flooded areas.

Real crazy story of road rage here -- two drivers are dead after a road rage incident escalated into gunfire in central Michigan. Witnesses telling our affiliate WZZM, that one driver was following another closely. The first car pulled into a car wash, the second one followed suit. The driver of that second car opened fire. The first driver returned fire, and both men died. Two passengers in one of the cars were not injured.

House Republicans passing a bill that slashes $4 billion a year from the nation's food stamp program, not a single Democrat voted for it. If the measure becomes law, more than 3 million Americans would lose their food stamp benefits. Nearly a million more would see them cut. Senate majority leader Harry Reid calls this measure shameful and says such hateful legislation will never pass in the Senate.

On that note, let's show you a little adorable video to get you out the door here. An otter finds a rock to play with, bat around, before he rolls on to his back. Wait for it, this is so cute. He says I'm going to play with it here for a second, and then he rolls over on his back and you'll see amazing kind of eye-paw coordination. Here he goes. Watch this. Back and forth. Are you kidding me? One Youtube commenter wrote, "Does anyone else get sad when the video ends?" Our solution, hit replay.

Look at that. The hackey-sack is coming back. Early on, he looks like one of those guys doing the shell game.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: They're just so cool.

PEREIRA: They really are.

CUOMO: Those are one of those animals that everybody likes. They're the like the Sanjay Gupta of the animal world. Very smart and sophisticated and everybody likes them.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Quick little e-mail.

BOLDUAN: It's a huge compliment. They are adorable in the water.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Who doesn't like them?

PEREIRA: They're puppy dogs of the sea.

CUOMO: Or, at least he doesn't. We're talking about he goes, teases. That means we must move on.

BOLDUAN: Coming up next on NEW DAY, in his first interview since taking over the Vatican, Pope Francis making eyebrow-raising remarks about homosexuality and abortion. Is he signaling a major change for the church?

CUOMO: And by now, we all know that texting and driving is bad, especially when you're in your own car, but imagine if it's a bus driver with a bus full of kids. That's what they say happened in Florida. It was caught on video and we'll show you the tape to decide for yourself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY. We're going to begin with some very interesting new comments from Pope Francis. The pontiff is bluntly criticizing the church you could say for becoming, quote, "obsessed with homosexuality and abortion" and issues like that. He didn't stop there. Let's bring in CNN's Matthew Chance for more on more from Rome.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the first in-depth interview with Pope Francis since he was elected in March. He addresses controversial issues like homosexuality, abortion and what he calls the feminine genius.

The words will be carefully examined by millions, looking to him for guidance. On the role of women, he has said in the past, the door is closed on their ordination as priests. Disappointing many Catholic liberals. In the interview, he says women should have a greater role in the church, "the feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions," he says.

FATHER THOMAS ROSICA, VATICAN SPOKESMAN: How can we possibly make decisions without consulting half of the human race? And most of the people who are in our churches and playing very leading roles as mothers, as catechists, and teachers, as those transmitting the faith, are the women in the church.

CHANCE: It was after his successful visit to Brazil earlier this year that Pope Francis made one of his most surprising remarks on homosexuality, telling reporters, "who am I to judge gay people?"

The church traditionally condemns homosexual acts. In his interview, the pontiff says he was asked if he approved of homosexuality. He answered, "tell me, when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?"

And that seems to be the conciliatory tone Pope Francis is trying to set for the church he leads, not so much breaking with doctrine, as shifting the church's emphasis in the words of one Vatican commentator, from condemnation to mercy.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Here to discuss the impact of Pope Francis' interview is a man who never lacks an opinion, Bill Donohue, president of the powerful Catholic League. Thank you for being here.

BILL DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, THE CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Thank you for having me.

CUOMO: First simple question, do you agree with the shift in focus that the pope is outlining.

DONOHUE: I do. This pope is a reformer, but he's not a revolutionary. People on the left and right are exaggerating what he's doing.

The Catholic Church is a wounded warrior. We know that the church has created some of his own problems. Some of the problems have been externally created. He says the church is a field hospital. He gives the metaphor of taking care of the wounded. You don't go up to the wounded and say let's see, you might have a high cholesterol rate. That's exactly what the pope said in his letter -- I'm sorry, in his interview.

Well, that's true. You get down to basics. The Catholic Church is not about homosexuality, abortion, the poor, or the environment. It's about salvation. And people are tied up in these little micro issues on the left and the right, and we've lost the focus of what the Catholic Church should be about. It's a change in tone, it's a change in style, but is not a doctrinal change in substance. That also should be noted.

CUOMO: I feel like this may count as the pope's first miracle. To hear you saying these things is going to be very shocking. Because it really sounds like you're one of the people he's sending this message to, to be fair, Mr. Donohue, isn't it? I mean, you have bashed on these issues for years and years, most infamously recently saying that the church had a homosexual problem, not a pedophile problem. I mean really incendiary, flagrant, divisive stuff.

DONOHUE: Well you see, Chris, let me just say that --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Are you saying you won't do that anymore?

DONOHUE: Oh, no. I will always tell the truth. If 81 percent of the victims --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That wasn't the truth.

DONOHUE: If 81 percent of the victims are male and 100 percent of the victimizers are male, and if 78 percent of the victims are post- pubescent. The word in the English language is not pedophilia, it's called homosexuality.

CUOMO: No. It would be called -- hebephilia. That is when you attack people who are in their teens.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: That's not even a - that's not a clinical term. That's a made up term to make people feel good.

CUOMO: You know very well you cannot find a pedophile in any prison anywhere who will say that that they're homosexual. It's never been about homosexuality, it's been about criminals and wrong acts. And this is your chance to say you won't do it anymore. The pops is asking you to.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: When men have sex with adolescent men, it's called homosexuality. It is not pedophilia. John Jay College of Criminal Justice is not a conservative right wing organization. Less than 5 percent of the priests involved in molestation are pedophiles.

I will never stop telling the truth, and the pope never said we should either. I'm against gay bashing. To say that because you're gay you're going to be a molester --

CUOMO: That is exactly what it sounds like. DONOHUE: No, no, no. If most of the molesters are gay, that is true. It is not true that most gay priests are molesters. That is a gay- bashing comment. People have to make critical distinctions.

I have nothing against gay people any more than I do against straight people. I do have against molesters. Whether they're straight or gay makes no difference to me, but I'm not going to lie about the figures. What I just said about the figures is absolutely true, it's not negotiable.

CUOMO: Well, but that's the problem. Isn't it? Because --

DONOHUE: What?

CUOMO: -- there are so many who would say not only is it negotiable, but it's irrational, what you're saying, because you have so many people -

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Explain it to John Jay then (INAUDIBLE). They just made it up, I guess. Do you think I made up those figures, Chris?

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I think you're parsing them. I think you're cherry-picking them and I think that the most important part is your motivation. You just heard what the pope said.

DONOHUE: The pope didn't say --

CUOMO: Why wouldn't you try to move past the parsing rhetoric and try to be what your church is supposed to be about?

DONOHUE: This is a problem with the left. They're trying to take what he says and then run with it like "The New York Times" said, the bishops are on the defensive because they're concerned about abortion, contraception, homo -- and gay rights or gay marriage.

No, no, no, the Obama administration is the one that is foisting this on the bishops. The bishops are reacting. They will continue -- there's nothing that Pope Francis has said that would give any relief to these people who are saying all of a sudden now the conservatives should shut up. We're not going to shut up because we're in constant compliance with the pope says.

CUOMO: He's saying the word "Catholic" means "universal."

DONOHUE: Yes, that's right.

CUOMO: He says the rule of the religion is love.

DONOHUE: That's right.

CUOMO: Not to cherry0pick statistics and blame homosexuals for being pedophiles. DONOHUE: Who ever said that?

CUOMO: Look --

DONOHUE: Who - who said that homosexuals are pedophiles? Did I say that?

CUOMO: The suggestion is all of this was consensual because of the age of the victims.

DONOHUE: Consensual? When people get raped it's not consensual. Look, as far as I'm concerned the Catholic Church didn't handle this right. I would have put these guys in the slammer a long time ago. Instead, they just think they can reform them. They send them off to the psychiatrist. That's plain stupidity.

CUOMO: There are few who will disagree with that. The way the church handled the situation is a large part of the stain on the church right now. It is the discussion of homosexuality and the blame of them as somehow predatory, that is what --

DONOHUE: I'll say it again.

CUOMO: Your pope telling you not to say -

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: This is what your pope is telling you.

DONOHUE: Most of the molesting priests were gay, and most gay priests are not molesters.

CUOMO: Good.

DONOHUE: I think people who --

CUOMO: Stop there.

DONOHUE: But I've been -- that's all I've ever said!

CUOMO: Who says the molesters were gay?

DONOHUE: I'm telling you, if --

CUOMO: Who says the molesters were gay?

DONOHUW: They weren't girls, and they weren't --

CUOMO: Who says the molesters are gay?

DONOHUE: If a man has sex with a man, what do you call that?

CUOMO: He could be a deviant pedophile and a sick person. He could be a rapist.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Not if the kid is 18, 17, 16 years of age. A rapist could be straight or gay, I'll give you that much.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Being homosexual doesn't make you predatory.

DONOHUE: You're running away - look you're trying to say that anybody who points out the obvious, that the Catholic Church had a homosexual scandal, therefore, you're anti-gay. This is absurd.

CUOMO: Mr. Donohue, we both know that what is obvious here is that the pope is asking you not to focus on these things.

DONOHUE: He didn't ask me to shut up about the truth.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You and the Catholic League, you're the same organization that went forward and said when you're defending The Passion, I'm a Mel Gibson fan, when you're defending The Passion you say hey those secular Jews in Hollywood, they don't like the Catholics. That's a fact. What? This is the kind of thing you shouldn't say anymore.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: Wait a minute. Do you want to get into -- is it the Vietnamese who are making movies in Hollywood? is it the Puerto Ricans who own Hollywood?

CUOMO: Do you understand how this sounds? Do you understand how it sounds? You think that's good for Catholics to be represented by this?

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: The Jewish Forward -- The Jewish Forward in its editorials said the exact same thing I did? Are they anti-Semitic?

CUOMO: So what? Why would you say it?

DONOHUE: Why would I say it? Because I was just insulted on some guy on MSNBC, and I just gave it right back to him.

CUOMO: Listen. Am I insulting you? We're having a discussion.

DONOHUE: No. This is fun.

CUOMO: Well, it's not fun for me and here's why. The pope is giving you a different message. He's saying don't make these statements about the homosexuals, don't make the statements about the Jews. Get back to what your church is about. Jesus wasn't about what you're doing right now. Are you going to hear that message or no? Because it doesn't sound like it.

DONOHUE: I heard the message but it's not the one you will interpret for me.

CUOMO: You think the pope wants you to say Jews don't like Catholics.

DONOHUE: I didn't say that. I never said that Jews don't like Catholics.

(CROSTALK)

CUOMO: And homosexuals when they have sex with people of a certain age must be predatory.

DONOHUE: When did I say Jews don't like Catholics?

CUOMO: You were quoted.

DONOHUE: No I didn't! I'm talking about secular Jews --

CUOMO: Hollywood - in Hollywood who make movies.

DONOHUE: Who run the Hollywood studios who make anti-Catholic movies. What's so absurd about that?

CUOMO: The absurdity is that you are blaming it on a faith and culture when it is a subjective judgment on a movie. You're blaming these people. He's telling you not to do it.

(CROSSTALK)

DONOHUE: So, if I mention that the Chinese live in Chinatown, am I considered now a bigot to point out the obvious?