Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Did Doctor Drug & Drown Wife?
Aired October 01, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, death, fraud, lies, affairs, plastic surgery, stolen identity, suicide and family dysfunction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now that I realize who my father is, every memory is tainted.
PINSKY: Dr. Martin MacNeill is accused of killing his wife. He says it was an accident. Even his own children don`t believe him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was helping her wash her hair, and she said, Alexis, if anything happens to me, make sure it wasn`t your father.
PINSKY: Hear more from his daughters and the behavior bureau.
And I will update you on the dad who police say injected his four year old son with heroin.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host is Sirius XM host, Jenny Hutt.
Martin MacNeill is the gentleman we were discussing there in that intro. He is a physician with a law degree, eight children and a dead wife. Prosecutors say he drugged and drowned his own wife after having convinced her to get a face-lift she didn`t want. They say he murdered her so he could be with another woman.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN MACNEILL: My wife has fallen in the bathtub.
DISPATCH: Who`s in the bathtub? Who`s in the bathtub?
MACNEILL: My wife. She`s unconscious. She`s under water.
DISPATCH: OK. Is she breathing at all?
MACNEILL: She is not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michele MacNeill died in 2007 in her bathtub. Prosecutors claim she was murdered so Dr. MacNeill could continue an affair with this woman, Gypsy Willis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An initial autopsy reports said she died of natural causes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say MacNeill convinced his wife to have plastic surgery against her wishes and gave letter a dangerous mix of prescription drugs. They say he devised a scheme it make his wife`s death look accidental.
Alexis and her siblings believe that their father killed their mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The world now knows that my father has committed murder.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Wow. Joining us now, Rita Cosby. She`s the investigative reporter and radio host on WOR in New York.
Rita, what`s the latest?
RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Dr. Drew, a family member says Dr. Martin MacNeill convinced his former beauty queen wife to get a face-lift despite her reservations about it. And soon after, words she got. She came home right after surgery and very mysteriously died in the bathtub.
Now, her death has never been ruled a homicide. The first autopsy done on Michele MacNeill ruled her death as natural causes. But investigators say that Dr. MacNeill provided misleading information to the medical examiner.
And a new report changed the cause of death to undetermined. Prosecutors believe she was drowned and there was a toxic combination of drugs found in her system.
Now, hours ago, a judge ruled that there will be some damning statements that can come in to trial. Their oldest daughter believes the dad did this terrible crime and will be allowed to testify that her mom said he just keeps giving me pills. But what will not be allowed is that she allegedly told the daughter right before she died, "If anything happens to me, make sure it wasn`t your father."
The jury will hear testimony about how Dr. MacNeill knew how to use a potassium injection to look like a heart attack. And also, the key witness will be his lover, a bizarre woman named Gypsy, whom he brought into the house two weeks after the wife died, under the guise she was a nanny -- Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Rita, that is just, there are so many chilling details on this story.
Jenny, it`s incredible.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: It`s so sick.
PINSKY: I hope people follow all that Rita laid out for us all there.
We`ve done listen, we have covered Casey Anthony, we`ve covered Conrad Murray, Jodi Arias, Zimmerman, on here on HLN. But I really want the viewers to hang on to this story because this one blows everything else out of the water, I suspect.
This is about a physician with a law degree, eight kids, a beautiful wife and some very bizarre behavior and details, and a dead woman, dead of poly-drug overdose and drowning following a procedure she didn`t want. You got it, Jenny?
HUTT: Yes. Plus, Dr. Drew, this doctor has a history of being convicted of fraud -- of identity fraud and all sorts of different kinds of fraud. He`s a bad guy from the get-go. When they got married 29 years ago, her parents were all freaked out because of his criminal history.
He`s a bad guy. He did it. I`m going to go out on a limb. He did it.
PINSKY: And you are -- before the show starts tonight, Jenny, you were reading something in the affidavit about some by some bizarre sexual misconduct as well?
HUTT: Yes. OK. So, right now, he is in jail on the new identity fraud and additionally he`s being tried for assaulting a relative, an adult relative by putting his hand down her pants and trying to make her sign a piece of paper saying she wouldn`t prosecute him. He`s in big, big trouble, and he`s a super creep.
PINSKY: Well, this is where I`m laughing. It`s nothing funny about this case. But when you sort of -- it becomes cartoony. It`s so bigger than life.
All right. Let`s get our panel together.
I`ve got Lauren Lake, attorney and the presiding judge on "Paternity Court"; Danny Cevallos, attorney and CNN legal analyst, Loni Coombs, former prosecutor and author of "You are Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell," and Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO radio in San Francisco, author of "Not a Genuine Black Man."
I want to play you guys a little more of the 911 tape. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCH: Why would an adult female so heavy?
MACNEILL: Hello!
DISPATCH: Sir, this is 911. Can I help you?
MACNEILL: I need help.
DISPATCH: OK, they`re on their way. Is your wife breathing?
MACNEILL: She is not. I`m a physician. I`ve got CPR in progress.
DISPATCH: How old is your wife?
MACNEILL: My wife is 50 years old. She just had surgery a week ago.
DISPATCH: What kind of surgery did she have?
MACNEILL: She had a face-lift.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anybody want to react to that 911 call? Lauren, what about you?
BRIAN COPELAND, KGO RADIO: I will.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: It was just a lot going on in that 911 call. It`s my wife. She just had a face-lift. She`s wearing blue and her hair is curled.
I mean, what is this guy? That 911 call is the first indicator that there is foul play going on here.
COPELAND: Yes.
PINSKY: Brian, go ahead.
COPELAND: Yes. Well, I was going to say, what doctor, what practicing physician flips out like that? Even if it is a family member, this guy was acting. This was so completely over the top.
LAKE: Yes.
COPELAND: I mean, you`re a doctor. Doctors can hold it together in a crisis.
PINSKY: You`re right. No, Brian, you`re right. That is exactly why I cannot watch medical television programs because everybody`s screaming like, give the I.V. pole. It`s like, no, when you`re in emergency, you`ve been a physician, well, that`s just part of your job every day and you --
(CROSSTALK)
COPELAND: Exactly.
PINSKY: Loni, go ahead.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Dr. Drew, this was so extraordinary. The dispatchers` department saved this tape to play for other people, for other people training to be dispatchers to say look how arrogant and strong and forceful and rude and obstreperous this guy was, how do you get around it?
He kept hanging up on them. He gave them the wrong address. He was clearly not trying to get help but to establish an alibi, say, yes, I called 911, but he was doing nothing to save his wife. Just the opposite.
PINSKY: Or, Danny, this guy has got some real serious problems, neuropsychiatrically and is completely spinning and couldn`t do anything.
COPELAND: No. No. You look at his body of work. Let`s put it this way. Look at his body of work.
PINSKY: Yes, I want to play you guys -- Loni, Danny, I`ll let you comment in just a second. But first I want to do is play for you guys the other part of the 911 tape, if the control room can help me out with that.
You`re right, Loni. He hung up with them in the middle of that call. They actually called him back. And I believe we have that.
Before we do that, though, before we do that, I want to show this clip, control tell me, it`s from the ABC affiliate, that`s correct?
This is MacNeill`s daughter talking to ABC News about Gypsy. We`re going to listen to that first then we`ll hear the rest of the 911 tape. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, oh, I found the perfect nanny. And I said, what`s her name? And he said, oh, I think it`s Jillian. I said, dad, Gypsy Jillian Willis? I said, I know that woman. I know mom was afraid you were having an affair with her. And you are not to bring her in the home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There you go. Now, Danny, you can react.
COPELAND: Wow. Wow.
DANNY CEVALLOS, ATTORNEY: Well, look, it`s a sad truth, there`s a lot of infidelity in America. And it`s a trend where people are guilty by way of creepiness.
The question we have to ask ourselves as a society, is it enough once we find out that a marriage is not Shangri-la that we find defendants guilty because maybe they`re involved in dalliances. I mean, we`ve seen it before. It seems to come in his character against the defendants.
We have to make a decision as a society, are we comfortable bringing in that kind of evidence as evidence that someone may have committed a murder because many unfortunately commit infidelity. Not all commit murder.
PINSKY: Jenny?
HUTT: But, Danny, he had -- the woman he was having the affair with, which is the motive we`re thinking that he killed his wife for move in as the quote nanny, but I read that she didn`t cook, she didn`t clean, she didn`t care for the kids. I think she was provides services, perhaps, to Martin MacNeill? Hmm?
CEVALLOS: OK,.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, she`s going to be a key witness in this case.
Lauren, how do you think that`s going to go down with her as a key center of the case?
LAKE: Well, the problem is her credibility and how that`s going to pan out in every case. I mean, of course, it could seem damaging at the surface, but will she hold up on cross examine? And what is she going to be able to provide for them? If she can get this guy and start exposing this guy for who he is and they get into enough testimony to where they really start understanding that this guy is off the wall, he`s off the chart? Then, it will be damaging.
PINSKY: Not only is he bizarre. I want the control room to again shoe me that footage of the reporter chasing Gypsy. It`s so bizarre. They were made for each other, these two. Play that again while Lauren again while Lauren was talking.
There it is. That`s her running away from the court with reporters. And I mean, it`s really wild.
LAKE: Ridiculous.
PINSKY: This story keeps going and going.
COPELAND: It`s crazy.
PINSKY: Here`s what I want to do? I want to take a break. I want to bring Dr. Bill Lloyd, our own medical examiner here. He`s going to talk with me about the medications found in the victim`s body. There are the bottles that was in this woman`s bloodstream.
He`s been reading our physician`s desk reference.
You got that bill for me, the PDR? No, he just brought the vials with the medicine in it.
Later on, a dad accused of injecting his own little boy with heroin, perhaps some say, are the worst crimes they`ve ever seen. The man at the center of the case will tell us what his thoughts are.
We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: She`s under the water?
MACNEILL: She`s under the water and I need an ambulance.
ALEXIS SOMERS: My father orchestrated this whole plan in how to murder my mother.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is she breathing at all?
MACNEILL: She is not.
SOMERS: This is someone that I thought loved his family and would do anything for us. And it`s horrifying. It`s horrifying to be the person to have to push for his conviction.
911 OPERTOR: They`re on their way. Is your wife breathing?
MACNEILL: She is not. I`m a physician. I`ve got CPR in progress.
SOMERS: They didn`t interview anyone. People never question my father. They, you know, he was the physician, the attorney. People didn`t want to question him.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know how to do CPR?
MACNEILL: I`m doing it.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do not hang --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Do not hang up. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Lauren Lake, Danny Cevallos and Loni Coombs.
Alexis Somers -- heard there -- believes that her father killed her mother with a cocktail prescription medication which I believe he`s gotten from the plastic surgeon, as I understand it.
Joining us our own pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd.
Dr. Lloyd, let us talk about the medication found in Michele MacNeill.
Do we have the full screen of that so I can describe it for everybody? We have valium, there it is, Phenergan, which is basically a cough suppressant, or anti-nausea, Ambien, a sleep medication, Oxycodone, OxyContin, Percocet. These are extremely powerful opiates, a hypnotic and a benzodiazepine and the sort of -- Phenergan`s almost related to Thorazine, if I remember right.
So, for me, you know, it`s interesting. We`re going -- Dr. Lloyd we`re going to talk later about a young boy that was injected with heroin. He has now been released from the hospital. Someone wakes up after a heroin opiate overdose, but you throw in the benzodiazepines, which you got in your other hand there, and that`s when people stop breathing.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Yes, it was a very lethal cocktail. You notice, these four different drugs came from different families, if you will. But what they had in common was that they were all sedatives. And when you combine them, particularly in a woman who didn`t take pills, you have a powerful effect, suppressing her respiration, basically rendering her inability to defend herself and into the tub she goes.
So, here`s the husband who was directing the plastic surgeon into what specific pills he should be prescribing. Now, who lets that happen? And he said, I`ll be there to make sure they`re all properly administered.
This doctor violating all the canons of ethics as a physician, and as we learn during the trial, violating all the ethics of a lawyer. He also graduated from law school.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s incredible, the combination. I only see this particular combination in sufficient enough doses to kill someone. Drug addicts take those kinds of combinations.
So, you think -- we don`t think anybody was an addict here. You think that he just knew that this particular combo would be sufficient to probably cause her to stop breathing and maybe make her defenseless so he can shove her under the water. Do we know in the autopsy, was there water in her lungs? Did she die before she went under the water?
LLOYD: Water in her stomach. It`s important to now that family members saw him studying that PDR book, the physician`s desk reference. Two of those drugs in that toxic cocktail are known to irritate the heart and can create the appearance of myocarditis which was reported in the autopsy.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting.
Now, according to the affidavit for this man, he had told his daughter Rachel, quote, "I want to make sure the autopsy is done right so no one believes I killed your mother."
Danny, it sounds like he was already believing he was going to be a suspect and thinking about how to get out from under this.
CEVALLOS: That`s one view of it. You could also look at it as a doctor and knowing that he probably had infidelity that would come to light, he wanted to make sure an autopsy was done correctly.
Just because he`s a little bit odd --
HUTT: Come on.
CEVALLOS: Hold on, hold on, if he gets the autopsy done correctly -- let`s look at the autopsy by the way that everyone was talking about.
Medical examiner number one says natural death. Medical -- the state`s not happy with that. So they go to medical examiner number two who says manner of death is undetermined.
Finally, they shop all the way to Florida where they find a -- this is the state government, by the way -- they find an M.E. who will say what they want to say.
Let me ask you, does that sound like beyond a reasonable doubt?
COOMBS: Yes, but look, Danny.
HUTT: Hold on, hold on, first M.E. passed away. So, they can`t go back to the first M.E. You read that, correct?
CEVALLOS: He said it was natural. Yes, good for them.
PINSKY: Loni?
CEVALLOS: Unfortunately, for the defense, they can`t go back to the guy who said natural causes.
COOMBS: But let`s also point out, it was a female actually, and she was getting information from the defendant. And that`s why I think he was saying we want to make sure this autopsy was done correctly. So I`m going to start calling the coroner and telling her the position of the body which was not correct, which was contradicted by the six year old daughter and by the lividity. He was feeding that coroner information.
And like the doctor said, or the daughter said, everyone trusted my dad. He was a doctor, he was a lawyer. He looked good. He had this great image.
And so, people accepted what he said at face value and people signed off quickly.
(CROSSTALK)
CEVALLOS: One question then. Do we discount the state`s own first medical examiner? Do we just throw out her conclusion?
PINSKY: You`re on to something there because --
LLOYD: You throw it out because she diagnosed in a vacuum. She did not have the information. She was trapped in a vacuum of information and she was not given all the facts regarding this case.
In the meantime, she`s taken phone calls and personal visits from Martin MacNeill, giving her backroom information to pervert her autopsy report.
PINSKY: And not only that, but, Lauren, I`m going to let you speak in a second, Lauren, but I just want to know how can it be natural causes when you have four lethal substances in your bloodstream?
LAUREN: Well, that`s what I wanted to ask you because I read that a couple of the drugs could not be administered, self-administered. I don`t know if that`s true, but I read that today.
PINSKY: No, they could be. Those are all potentially oral medications. But it`s a combination that`s extremely treacherous. I mean, I -- people do prescribe these combos out there in the world, particularly after a surgery, but it is --
LAKE: So, then I ask this question -- if a person was, was a little bit, you know, unsure about even having plastic surgery, she didn`t really want to do it, she did it. Is that the same type of person that would then take this combination of drugs afterwards?
PINSKY: Right. Right.
LAKE: I just seems bizarre.
PINSKY: It seems bizarre. And, Dr. Lloyd, my understanding is she was someone who was aversive to medications as well.
LLOYD: Yes, she was a medication virgin. And the toxicologist reported in two separate reports that the levels of the drugs in her system indicated that she had just received them within an hour of her death. And eight hours earlier, the daughter Rachel reported that the mother had already been off of all her medication and behaving normally.
All of a sudden, she`s back on all those meds, and there are no children around, just dad.
PINSKY: I`m going to finish with Danny and just say that could still be somebody who is manic and crazy and odd, but not necessarily intending to kill his wife. Is that your point, Danny?
CEVALLOS: My point is this. It`s simple. The government wanted a conviction. So, they didn`t like the answer of their first doctor. So they went to a second.
They still weren`t satisfied. Three medical examiners can`t agree. If they can`t agree, then do you then have some reasonable doubt, jury of millions?
PINSKY: All right. Coming up, we will -- hang on. I`ve got go. We`re going to hear from the doctors daughters themselves who don`t believe him. And there`s a question about whether or not MacNeill had been a serial killer. There`s evidence of that, and perhaps a serial killer unlike others.
The behavior bureau`s going to take a look at that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGI VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was a man that masqueraded as a loving father.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s an actor, and he orchestrated this murder. And that was part of it. This was all a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s deceived people. And that he`s a murderer, and he`s a threat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He thought he could get away with the perfect crime. And I think he`s upset that he`s been caught.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau with my co-host still Jenny Hutt.
And we are discussing the case of a physician who perhaps has been a serial killer, perhaps killed his wife.
Joining us, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network. Also, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", and, Danine Manette, criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal".
Now, guys, one of the most striking features is the story is the fact that his own biological daughters are convinced, I mean, they`re the ones making the case that they have a psychopath for a father. I`m watching all my clinical people nod.
I`ll start with you, Danine. You have a way of throwing little quarters like a dynamite into the conversation. So, go ahead.
DANINE MANETTE, CIRMINAL INVESTIGATOR: You know, when I first read about this case, I said to myself, if anybody gives him a mental health diagnosis, I`m going to lose my mind if anybody does that, because this guy is just evil. He is a narcissist, I`ll give you that, who adorns himself of human jewelry.
But just the fact that his wife had a facial -- face-lift. She did not have gallbladder surgery, something else, she had a face-lift. What does that tell you about the type of person he is?
PINSKY: Right.
MANETTE: He wanted to make sure that she looked glamorous and lovely so that he could fit his image, that doctor, the lawyer, he wanted to best of everything around him. He`s a cold-blooded killer.
He`s not crazy. He`s a killer.
PINSKY: And, Sam, I will go to you, but let`s all remind you ourselves, Danine used a clinical term. She said narcissist. I`m just saying.
Danine, go ahead.
MANETTE: But he`s not crazy.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, I was shocked reading the affidavit earlier. I mean, this guy`s laundry list of criminal behavior and activities and lies. His lies put Jodi Arias to shame and that`s saying a lot.
And it was crazy. It was everything little thing from falsifying his college transcripts so he could get into medical school, so he could get into law school, to now we see these accusations of rape and misconduct.
And you`re right, Dr. Drew, his own daughters who once completely idolized him are looking at him and thinking that he`s responsible not only for the mom`s death but also they think that he has something to do with his son, their brother`s suicide.
This is a serial killer. Everybody around him has died.
PINSKY: Yes. I want, I want -- what`s that, Jenny?
HUTT: I just want to ask you a question.
PINSKY: Yes.
HUTT: Isn`t it -- like doesn`t it happen sometimes that people start out with the small crimes and then they escalate each time they get away with something?
PINSKY: You know.
MANETTE: Definitely.
PINSKY: I don`t deal with criminals that much. You know, we talk about -- who said that, Danine? You`re saying yes?
MANETTE: Yes, yes, definitely. I mean, people who end up being rapists often start up as exhibitionists. People who end up being killers often start up being cruel to animals.
These things escalate. The more you get away with it, the more you become more evolved as a criminal.
PINSKY: OK --
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PYSCHOLOGIST: This guy may have started big, because evidently, he may have tried to kill his own mother at age eight and successfully killed his own brother later. Those are big, starting out crimes.
PINSKY: That`s right, Cheryl. And that would -- if those things had happened, there`s no doubt this is a psychopath, sorry, Danine, that I`m using a criminal term. But the term you would like, he`s a cold-blooded killer --
(CROSSTALK)
MANETTE: OK, OK.
PINSKY: If that is true.
But what I want Cheryl and Wendy to think about. I`m going to go to Wendy first because I haven`t heard from her, is what do you think convinced these daughters? That`s a hard thing to get through to a biological child that everything this guy appears to be is a lie and that behind it is a psychopath.
How do you think that happened? Is that what we`re seeing with these daughters? Wendy?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s all I can think about is the cognitive dissonance that those daughters must have. In other words, two thoughts. One he is a loving father, and one, he has killed our mother who we love so much. Imagine the mental work that you have to go through to come to that conclusion. My heart goes out to the whole family.
PINSKY: They`re completely convinced.
WALSH: I would be, too.
(CROSSTALK)
WALSH: And you know, Dr. Drew, there`s a lesson in here.
PINSKY: Tell me.
WALSH: I was going to say, there`s a lesson in here for women who are attracted out of their compassionate hearts to poor, wounded people who have had really bad childhoods. Remember, her family, the wife`s family said don`t marry him. Don`t marry him. Something about him is bothering us. And she said oh, he had such a bad childhood.
But listen to what the bad childhood was. Every single sibling except one sister either committed suicide or died of a drug overdose. This is not just a bad childhood.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Cheryl, you were saying, he might have had something to do with some of this. What are your thoughts of these daughters?
(CROSSTALK)
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, when we were covering the Jodi Arias trial, we were able to look at behaviors and things that were consistent with a blend between borderline personality and psychopath. This is more a blend of what`s consistent with narcissistic personality disorder.
PINSKY: Malignant narcissism.
ARUTT: Malignant narcissism.
PINSKY: Yes.
ARUTT: Which is very different from this other kind of narcissism that we talk about. This is a really toxic, dangerous kind of narcissism and psychopath. And the point I want to make about that is that this is a man who clearly was very, very intelligent.
And there`s a lot of behavior that he did to try to set up these kinds of crimes, but the things, the mistakes that he did make were the kinds of mistakes for someone who has a blind spot for empathy and compassion, understanding, you know, things like not allowing his murdered wife`s family to come to the funeral or find out about it and telling his daughters the minute they got challenged that he alienated and sent them away, sending this poor little girl, Giselle (ph), back to the Ukraine. There`s lot -- setting up a six-year-old to find the body. This is just really psychopathic stuff.
PINSKY: And Danine, are we OK now? You`re still with us even though we`re talking around some clinical stuff?
(LAUGHTER)
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: You know, Dr. Drew, this guy has more bodies around him than Jim Jones. I mean -- and once somebody kills once, they`ll kill again. It`s easier to kill again. It`s kind of like an animal with the taste of blood. I really believe as Cheryl eluded to that he could have been involved in more of these dead bodies that were around him than meets the eye. I think if they keep digging, they`ll find he was connected to more of them.
PINSKY: I am completely creeped out. And if you all have a question or comment for the "Behavior Bureau," you can tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behavior bureau.
And later, a central figure in that father injects son with heroine story had seen it all until now, and you will hear from him. We`ll be back after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN HOST: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," it`s the next big trial, Utah versus Martin McNeal. He`s a doctor, married, beautiful wife, beautiful children.
RYAN SMITH, HLN HOST: But here`s the thing, our in-studio jury ready to render a verdict on the bold question, did the doctor`s wife drown accidentally? Then he has an alibi or so he says.
POLITAN: Yes. We`re going to take a look at that alibi tonight, and we`ll also look at the circumstances of the death. And three doctors, three opinions, no one agrees. Will the jury agree tonight? Top of the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXIS SOMERS, DEFENDANT`S DAUGHTER: My mother told me, I was helping her wash her hair, and she said, Alexis, if anything happens to me, make sure it wasn`t your father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that, did that come out of the blue, though? I mean -- I can`t even imagine that conversation.
SOMERS: Oh, I mean, it was horrifying. I didn`t believe it. I didn`t want to believe it. But it happened. It was just a couple days later that she was murdered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I mirror Jim Moret`s incredulity there. Back with my co- host, Jenny Hutt and the "Behavior Bureau," Sam, Cheryl, Wendy, and Danine. If you`re just joining us again, we`re discussing this physician about to go on trial, pre-trial hearings are under way. Cameras are in the courtroom. He`s alleged to have killed his wife. Even his own kids think he`s guilty. There they are in that picture. We`ll be following this trial closely here on HLN.
And as Danine said, she believes this guy has more bodies around him than Jim Jones. And even his own daughters believe that he is guilty. Wendy, what about the fact that Michelle seemed to have some sort of premonition?
WALSH: Well, I believe the unconscious knows all. I think there is a parallel universe going on. There`s -- what`s actually happening, the roles we play, and then on a different psychic level, we all really know the game. We know what`s really happening, and I think that premonition was her unconscious talking.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, he`s tried to kill her before. There was a point years ago where he tried to kill her, but somebody intervened. He had a kitchen knife.
PINSKY: What?
SCHACHER: Yes. Way back. Am I right?
WALSH: Yes.
SCHACHER: Yes. And then there`s also time when she caught him afterwards, Dr. Drew, she caught him looking at pornography.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: And that`s where he threatened to kill himself.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: There is a number of different incident --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: I never said it was a crime. He threatened to kill himself. And then, there was another time where he went after her with a kitchen knife.
PINSKY: Wow. Now, listen, I, by the way, Danine, my apologies to Danine, but I`m going to look at Cheryl and Wendy, you guys nod your heads if you agree with me. In addition to narcissism, there`s a bipolar quality of this guy, too. He seems manic as hell a lot of the times. You guys agree with that?
ARUTT: I`m not sure. I don`t know. I really see the other --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Everyone`s in Danine`s camp. That`s what this boils down to. His daughters say if you`re going to be a loving father on the outside, but I want to you listen how they described behind the scenes behavior on ABC`s 20/20. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not the typical father. He was just very --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very haughty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stern, haugty, arrogant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wendy, your subconscious diatribe there. You sure they`re not just trying to get back to a dad that was abusive their whole life?
WALSH: No.
SCHACHER (ph): No.
PINSKY: No? OK.
WALSH: Well, there`s also lots of big evidence around. I mean, the 911 call and him hanging up on them, what, to give them time to clean up the crime scene? Is that why -- he says I`m doing CPR as they found wet towels in the garage.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: And by way, when you`re doing CPR, you`re doing mouth-to- mouth. You`re not talking to a 911 operator. Not long after the death, this guy, you`re looking at here, moved his girlfriend gypsy into the family home, under the guise that she was a nanny for the younger children. I specifically through that gassing (ph) on the fire for Danine.
He also forged some documents with her claiming they were married and listed their wedding date, Danine, as the day of Michelle`s funeral, have at it.
MANETTE: See, that`s what I`m talking about. Number, why does he even need a nanny when he has older children that can take care of the younger children. So, that was just foolishness. Number two -- and that nanny needs to always be looking in her rear view mirror, because as you can see, he trades women in for newer models.
So, you know, I`m sure that once this one got old, then he`s going to try and replace her with the new one. It`s just ridiculous. It`s just so disgustingly ridiculous. This guy is a facade.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: But you guys realize that the supposed nanny/girlfriend gypsy might have been in cahoots. There`s testimony --
MANETTE: Oh, she might have been?
HUTT: That she was saying --
MANETTE: Absolutely.
HUTT: That she wanted to slash her, to cut her brakes so that she would get into a car accident and die. This is not someone -- she`s no Pollyanna thinking that she`s marrying a great guy who might not murder her. I mean --
MANETTE: No. She wants to move into the house. She wanted to be the doctor`s wife.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I just love how you guys drag the woman into it and make it about her and her --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: We`ve got this guy piling up bodies, but there`s got to be a woman in the middle of it.
MANETTE: No, no, no. She put herself in it.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: -- but Cheryl, take me home. Cheryl, go ahead.
ARUTT: Well, I think gypsy danced her way right into the center of this hot mess. And you couldn`t write this stuff. I mean, come on. She had a picture, evidently, of Michelle, the wife, in her closet because you need to know your enemies.
MANETTE: Who does that?
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: She would sneak in, Dr. Drew, and they would have sex in the closet.
PINSKY: What?
SCHACHER: Yes. While the wife was there. While she was still alive. At a cocktail party.
PINSKY: I am stunned. But I will keep my eye, ears to the ground and eye carefully on the story. Fortunately, there will be cameras in the courtroom. I can see, this stirs you ladies, so we will continue to cover this one. And the "Behavior Bureau" will be on it.
Next up -- thank you, panel -- we will hear from the man who is trying to put the drug addict dad away for allegedly shooting up his little boy in the neck with heroin. Plus, there is some breaking news in this case. We will get to it right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m here with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We`re discussing a case where a mom comes home to find her soon to be ex-husband unconscious, lying in his own vomit, beside him, their four-year-old boy unconscious. The boy`s father allegedly injected them both with what is potentially a lethal dose of heroin. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Leighton (ph) is charged with attempted first-degree murder.
PINSKY: Trying to kill his four-year-old son by injecting him with heroin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are treating this as an assault. Yes. On maybe the assumption that maybe someone else injected the four-year-old with heroin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently, this was all over a nasty custody battle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here you have a guy who is getting at his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For a kid to be short of in a house with heroin in general, and then he gets overdosed, it`s like that`s kind of sick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By using what she hated most about him to try and kill his own son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But there is almost no limits that people will go to get back at the wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who leaves their four-year-old alone with an addict?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one thinks that this kid`s dad is going to try to kill him with heroin.
PINSKY: This is not a story about heroin. This is a story about malignant narcissism.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Again, malignant narcissism, another manifestation, another horrible story where the parent sees the child as an extension of themselves, not as a separate human being. It`s an object to be used at their whim. And we have breaking news, the boy, thankfully, has survived. He has been released tonight from the hospital. The question is, though, what happens to him now? Back with us Lauren Lake, Samantha Schacher, Brian Copeland.
Brian, do you give this boy back to his mother?
BRIAN COPELAND, AUTHOR, "NOT A GENUINE BLACK MAN": Oh, yes. Of course, you give the child back to his mother. Certainly. I have some questions about her leaving the child in the care of the father knowing the problems that he had and the fact that part of the custody arrangement was that he would have to be drug tested, so she was aware of the fact there were problems. But I certainly would make sure that he needs to be with his mom, sure.
PINSKY: All right. I want to show you guys --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Not everyone is as comfortable as Brian is. I get that.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: I want to show the viewers what the police found in the home when they came in. They found ten syringes, the guy is doing drugs, $12,620 in cash, a burnt spoon with residue. There`s the heroin, multiple scales and drug packaging equipment suggesting --
COPELAND: He`s dealing.
PINSKY: -- Sam, that he is trafficking drugs as well. What do you think?
SCHACHER: Absolutely. And I`m sorry. I actually do partially blame the mom for this. I mean, just as Brian suggested, she was aware. To be suspicious, to have the court order a drug test shows that she knows that there was some sort of doubt in her mind. I mean, I wouldn`t have allowed my pet dog, let alone a kid, to stay with him.
And listen -- hold on, Jenny. Hold on, Jenny, because I want to say this to somebody who actually was trying to be sober and in treatment. This is someone that`s had a number of different drug overdoses. This is somebody that`s had suicide attempts. It`s much more than that. And, it`s more than just the average drug addict. This is somebody that did something far more sinister. He`s evil.
PINSKY: That`s right. That`s right. My patients don`t do --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Jenny.
HUTT: What I just wanted to say to Sam was what I think what happened with the mother is that she -- it`s impossible to believe that your ex, soon to be ex-husband, would hurt your child. It just makes no sense, so how could she go there?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I do think. I talked about this yesterday. If somebody`s not actually involved in treatment, (INAUDIBLE) using and he could easily nod out with a little kid there. That would have been bad enough. He actively participated in the kid`s demise or nearly in his demise. Lauren, I want to show you -- can the control room help me with this?
Can you show me that picture again of what the father did and injected in that child. He apparently got him in the buttock. There it is. Multiple puncture wounds in the buttock. And to me (ph), he was giving intramuscular injections of opioid and ketamine, it turned out, try to get this kid asleep, and then finally gave him the big injection in the neck. Lauren, what do we do with this guy?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know what, Dr. Drew, enough already. I see this every day in paternity court where you see couples using children as pawns to get back at the other one, but this case right here is completely out of line. How dare he? I mean, you know, this is the part that gets me. If you don`t want to be in a relationship with a person, fine. If you do want to be in a relationship with them, talk to the person about it.
But don`t you dare use an innocent child to get back at somebody because they don`t want to be with you when you know good and well she`s got good reason to not want to be with you. The child is innocent.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Got to go to break. We`ll be right back with more of this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Attempted murder, and it carries at least a 15- year prison sentence. We`ve also alleged some aggravating factors of vulnerable victim, abuse of trust, and also a crime that was intended to have an impact on someone other than the victim. He did this so that the mother would see who is really in charge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is the prosecutor at the center of this case. We are with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And we`re talking about the father accused of trying to kill his four-year-old son by injecting him in the neck with heroin. Lauren, quick question to you, are you seeing more of this kind of thing in your courtroom as where parents are using children violently to act out their aggression and resentments?
LAKE: In our courtroom, we haven`t seen the violence, which is why I am so up in arms when I hear about cases like this, but you see it every day where parents are saying, you know, instead of us dialing with our differences, we`re going to involve the child. And we`re going to use this child as the pawn.
Either we`re going to neglect this child or either we`re going to fight over this child and we`re going to make this about the child when really it`s about our inability to communicate and to be adults. And it`s unacceptable. This guy, I don`t know if this was supposed to be a murder suicide, but the news flash for him is that the murder, thank God, did not happen, but neither did the suicide.
So, that means it`s attempted murder and you can put that in your arm and shoot it, because you`re going to jail.
PINSKY: Brian, finish -- we got about 20 seconds, and now we`re all going to pay for this case -- Brian.
COPELAND: Justice will be served. This guy will be released from prison on the 12th of never. This case is so heinous. So, there`s really nothing else to discuss. He`s going away as he should. And it should be a lesson to others who might want to hurt children to get back at an ex.
PINSKY: There you go. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next. Be right back with that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call." And Jenny Hutt, my co-host tonight, we have some love for our panelists. Can you guys throw that up there, a tweet from -- there she is, Debra Smith (ph), "Love the show, learn a lot. All the guests are wonderful." Thank you. Jenny, little love for our --
HUTT: That`s great, but I just want to say -- I just have to say it takes a special kind of man to have sex with his mistress in the same room in which his wife is convalescing after face lift that he --
PINSKY: Got to go, Jen. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.
END
