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Interview with Rep. Huelskamp Regarding Talks Obamacare, Shutdown, Debt Ceiling; Obama Says Boehner Can End Shutdown, Blames Republican "Extremists"; Obama, Boehner Stand Off; Will Obama Use 14th Amendment to Raise Debt Ceiling Himself?; Interview with NEC Director Gene Sperling

Aired October 03, 2013 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're now deep into day three of the government shutdown. That means almost 800,000 federal employees across the country, they are at home, they are not working, they're not getting paid. National parks like the Tall Grass Prairie National Preserve, and museums, like the Dwight Eisenhower Presidential Library, they are closed. Both are part of Kansas' First District.

Joining us now to discuss what's going on, Republican Congressman Tim Huelskamp, who represents that First District in Kansas.

Congressman, thanks very much for coming in.

REP. TIM HUELSKAMP, (R), KANSAS: My pleasure.

BLITZER: You know there's an easy way to get all of government back operating. Just allow an up-and-down vote on a clean bill, as they call it, without any strings attached. That would pass the House, it would pass the Senate, the president would sign it, everything would be back to business as usual within a few hours. Why isn't that a good idea?

HUELSKAMP: I'm not certain that bill would pass. And it's certainly not going to be put to a vote with what the House I doing. Hey, we need to take care of veterans. We'll pass that later today. We passed a bill to open up parks and historical monuments. We need to take care of the kids that need help through NIH. And we're going to pass those, send those over to the Senate. But the Senate so far and the president have said they're not going to negotiate. In America, most places, whether families or businesses, you've got to come to the table and negotiate and that's what we've been trying to do.

BLITZER: But as you know, there's an easy way to get all of those things passed. Let it come up for a vote. If there are 20 Republicans, and all the Democrats vote in favor, it will pass. By our count, it's getting close to 20, if not more. Why do you think it wouldn't pass if it came up for an up-or-down vote?

HUELSKAMP: I don't see the vote there in conference. For days in a row, not a single Republican stood up and asked for that vote. Maybe privately they would like that. But we have open conferences and debates. And there's a solid group of Republicans and moderates and conservatives alike and say, you know what? We expect the Senate to negotiate. Yes, it might be easier to let President Obama have his way on everything. But at the end of the day, there are crucial differences. All we're asking negotiate is come down and negotiate, and sit down at the table and we'll work out those differences. You know --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: But Congressman --

(CROSSTALK)

HUELSKAMP: -- we sent to the senate was have a conference committee.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: There are some -- there are some Republicans congressmen who want that. Peter King of New York, you know him. Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania, you know him. They say let it come up for a vote. It's already gone too far too many people are suffering right now. Just let it come up for a vote and see what happens.

HUELSKAMP: I think there's a lot of suffering going on because of this, because Senator Reid says he's not going to negotiate. Potentially, we could have a short-term bill that would open things up but the issue still remains, is the president willing to negotiate on anything about Obamacare? He gave a big exemption to big businesses. We think that should apply to all Americans. Frankly, I've been on line for 61 hours trying to sign up for Obamacare. We can't find a single Kansan yet that signed up under the exchanges. Those are issues that impact the budget, impact daily lives. We should be able to sit down and negotiate those, rather than the president saying it's his way or the highway. Senator Reid says his way or the highway. There's been absolutely no compromise, no negotiating coming from the Senate. And that's a poor way to run the Senate and a poor way to run the country.

BLITZER: Just like you have the majority in the House, they have the majority in the Senate, so there's a strong disagreement.

The president was very outspoken. As difficult as the current stand- off as far as the government is concerned right now, it could get a whole lot worse in two weeks. Listen to what the president said earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As reckless as a government shutdown is, as many people as being -- as are being hurt by a government shutdown, an economic shutdown that results from default would be dramatically worse. In a government shutdown, Social Security checks still go out on time. In an economic shutdown, if we don't raise the debt ceiling, they don't go out on time.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: Are you willing to vote in favor of raising the debt ceiling?

HUELSKAMP: I have done that in the past. But I'm not going to sit by and let the president of the United States threaten to use our senior citizens as pawns. He's using memorials as pawns and children and cancer research as pawns.

At the end of the day, it's a simple way. We'll send bills over but the House Democrats have voted no on keeping parks open. They have voted no on funding cancer research. They're going to vote no today on taking care of our veterans.

But at the end of the day, the president should quit engaging in political games, trying to create pain, which I think he's doing, trying to scare seniors, and actually negotiate.

Mr. President, you're not a dictator. You're the president. Come to the table, sit down with House Republicans, Senate Democrats, we will negotiate a compromise.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: What will it take for you to vote in favor -- what will it take for you to vote, within two weeks, in favor of raising the debt ceiling?

HUELSKAMP: I think we need to look at what is the plan, long term, for the fiscal condition of this country. Simply doing as the president says, which would mean borrowing trillions of more dollars with no plan to pay it back, with no way to balance the budget -- he proposed a budget for five years now to the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate. It was rejected by everybody. He's done that again. But at the end of the day, we need to put this country on a bath of balance. In 10 years, we could do that if the president would roll up his sleeves --

BLITZER: All right.

HUELSKAMP: -- get to work and join us at the table.

BLITZER: Very quickly, because we're out of time, so in order to raise the debt ceiling, you're willing to drop any reference to Obamacare, is that right?

HUELSKAMP: I am not. That needs to be discussed. Obamacare will cost this country. It will increase deficits by $870 billion over the next 10 years. You can't do that. You can't balance the budget.

The president, please, work with us to try to balance this budget and make sure we meet the obligations for our Medicare and Social Security recipients. We can do that, it's possible, but we have to come to the table and negotiate. I'm ready to do that. Speaker Boehner's ready to do that. We're waiting on Harry Reid and the president of the United States.

BLITZER: We'll see. I'll check those numbers you threw out there. You want to give us a clue, where did you get that number?

HUELSKAMP: That's from the Congressional Budget Office --

BLITZER: All right.

HUELSKAMP: -- in terms of their latest estimates of the cost of Obamacare. It doesn't save money. And it's not working at all. It's going to cost us billions of dollars and -- of additional borrowing in the next 10 years.

BLITZER: You're saying that's a net drain on the U.S. economy, that nearly trillion dollars, is that what you're saying?

HUELSKAMP: No, I said it was billions of dollars in additional costs and deficits because of Obamacare. It's a massive increase in taxes. I understand what the president did on that. But it's a massive increase in spending. And there's not enough money coming in -- it cost us. You know, millions of Americans are losing health insurance premiums, health insurance through their employers. It's also going to blow a hole in our deficit. We have to discuss Obamacare. I know the president doesn't think Obamacare has anything to do with the budget but it has everything to do with the budget and liberties of many Americans. So it needs to be on the table to be discussed. And --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: He says he's willing to discuss it but not in the context of the government shutdown and not in the context of raising the nation's debt ceiling. There'll be plenty of other opportunities, he says, down the road. But obviously, from your perspective, that's not good enough.

HUELSKAMP: I have not seen a single offer from the president. Our final offer to the Senate was this: You gave an exemption for Obamacare to big businesses. Why don't you give it to the rest of Americans as well? While you're at it, Mr. President, there shouldn't be a gold-plated health care system just for the Senate, just for the House, just for you and Kathleen Sebelius and all your other appointees. I think we should live under the same system we put on all Americans.

BLITZER: Tim Huelskamp is a Republican congressman from Kansas.

Thank very much for coming in.

HUELSKAMP: My pleasure, Wolf. Thank you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

President Obama says the government shutdown will end as soon as the House Speaker John Boehner allows the House to vote on a clean bill to keep the government funded with no strings attached. Will the speaker do that? A better question, can he do that? What's going on? Stay with us.

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BLITZER: Another casualty of the government shutdown, the monthly jobs report. The Labor Department announced today that due to a lapse of funding it won't be releasing numbers for September on Friday morning.

Let's take a closer look now at how Wall Street is reacting. Stocks falling once again today. The Dow down about 94 points right now. Investors are deeply worried that Washington remains paralyzed as the U.S. rapidly approaches the deadline, within two weeks from today, raising the nation's debt ceiling.

President Obama today singled out what he called "extremists" in the Republican Party as the sole cause of this partial government shutdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The problem we've got is that there's one faction of one party in one half of one branch of government that so far has refused to allow that yes-or-no vote unless they get some massive partisan concessions in exchange for doing what they're supposed to be doing anyway.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Ryan Lizza is a CNN contributor and a Washington correspondent for the "New Yorker" magazine. Done some serious reporting on this.

Why doesn't the speaker simply allow an up-or-down vote on the floor of the House of Representatives on what's called the clean bill, without references to Obamacare or anything else, just see what happens?

RYAN LIZZA, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORKER MAGAZINE & CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, what folks -- what Republicans in the House, both staff and members, are saying -- and maybe this is spin because they want to put more pressure on Obama -- but what they're saying is Boehner can't do it because he's -- three times this year he has put legislation on the floor of the House and the legislation passed with the Democratic votes and minority of Republicans, which is no-no when you're speaker.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Why is that a no-no?

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: In the old days, it was never no-no. You let the majority rule. You get a lot of Democrats, you get a bunch of Republicans, and that's the will of 435 members of the House of Representatives.

LIZZA: It's a great question. There's a lot of bipartisan legislation that would pass in Congress if that rule didn't exist, right?

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Why does everything have to be so partisan? It's got to be passed strictly by Republicans?

LIZZA: Yeah.

BLITZER: Strictly by Senators in the Senate. Why can't there be bipartisanship where moderate Democrats and conservative Democrats say --

LIZZA: It's not just on this issue. There is immigration reform. There's probably a bipartisan Democrat/Republican alliance in the House of Representatives that --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Well, here's the question --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: What would happen to Boehner, as speaker -- let's say he would allow the legislation to come up for a vote and it narrowly passed with all of the Democrats, almost all of -- let's say almost all, and 20 or 25 Republicans supporting it, 200 Republicans not supporting it, let's say. What would happen to Boehner as speaker?

LIZZA: If he did it now, it seems like he would be challenged as speaker. Remember, there were about a dozen Republicans that did not vote for him earlier this year for speaker. He was challenged. There was a coup attempt against him. And if you remember, back in the '90s, he was part of the intrigue and the plot to overthrow Newt Gingrich. So he knows how precarious a speakership can be.

BLITZER: Well, he has to make a decision, what's good for the country or what's good for him politically. Is that what you're saying?

LIZZA: I think it depends on -- I think that's a strong way of putting it but you're right about that. He may have to force the most conservative members of the House to feel more pain and for public opinion to turn against them before they can go with the plan to put it on the floor.

Now, the other option is, could the president throw him a lifeline? Could the president and Harry Reid -- is there some concession they could give him that would allow him to go to his conference and say, we've fought the good fight and we got this. Now, I haven't seen anyone, you know -- there's pretty creative people in this town. I haven't seen anyone explain what that would be. Their position is: no negotiations because negotiating over this thing just encourages them for the next time we have to go through this.

BLITZER: They've got to go through it within two weeks on the debt ceiling.

All right, Ryan, thanks.

LIZZA: Even though the nuclear stand-off over the Cuban Missile Crisis was resolved, right? How was it resolved? It was a back- channel negotiation.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: That's what I'm wondering. Where is the back channel right now?

LIZZA: Obama has to come up with something where he can say he didn't negotiate.

BLITZER: Thanks very much for joining us.

LIZZA: Yeah.

BLITZER: Good stuff.

Coming up, the president of the United States versus the speaker of the House. Why can't they reach a deal? I'll ask a key aide to the president, one of his top economic advisers. Gene Sperling standing by, live, from the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're in day three of the government shutdown. Federal workers, they're losing wages, about 800,000 people and their families. National parks and monuments are closed. We're inching closer and closer to the debt ceiling deadline, two weeks from today. As we heard earlier, President Obama went on the offensive against House Republicans today in a speech in suburban Washington. He said there's only one party at fault and only one remedy, calling for an immediate vote in the House of Representatives with no strings attached.

Let's bring in Gene Sperling, the director of the National Economic Council, a key assistant to the president on economic policy.

Gene, thanks for coming in.

GENE SPERLING, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Thank you.

BLITZER: Is there any hope, any daylight that you see as a result of the president's meeting yesterday with the congressional leadership, Democrats and Republicans?

SPERLING: Well, I think the hope that you're seeing is I think it becomes more and more apparent that there are many Republicans, certainly outside of Washington, but I think more inside Washington, who do want to put an end to this period. And that's why the president believes, and I think most people believe that if the speaker of the House were simply to offer a vote that you would have a bipartisan majority voting in favor of opening the government.

Remember, what Majority Leader Reid has offered is reasonable. It's really saying, for six weeks, we're willing to continue the government spending at current levels, the levels the Republicans want, not the Democrats want, for six weeks. So this really is a very reasonable proposal. And the president strongly believes, I strongly believe, most people do, if the speaker just let a vote take place that the government would open, and that would be good for a lot of people, and for our economy.

And then I think, you know, even more important is to, at long last, take away the idea that anyone is going to threaten the default of the United States or use the threat of default --

BLITZER: I want to get --

(CROSSTALK)

SPERLING: -- as a budget tactic.

BLITZER: I want to get to that in a moment. But in the meantime, until he comes around and decides he's going to allow that simple vote to come up, if he does, why not allow the funding for critically important agencies like the National Institutes of Health or veterans benefits or here in Washington, D.C.? Why not allow funding for those agencies to go forward as the president allowed military paychecks to the men and women serving in the military to go forward?

SPERLING: We want those critical functions to going forward. The way to do that is to open up the government. Yes, we care about NIH, but how about the Centers for Disease Control? They're -- you know, 66 percent of people are not working there. 98 percent on the National Science Foundation. So, yes, the way to protect these critical functions that the United States does in terms of research and investment and education and caring for our people is to allow a clean vote on the House of Representatives. And we don't need any substitute slingshot alternatives. There's a very clean and simple alternative that can open the government.

BLITZER: But if that doesn't happen -- if that doesn't happen, Gene, the president will veto those piecemeal pieces of legislation? I know he issued that threat yesterday, but is that still his position?

SPERLING: I highly doubt that that will ever reach his desk because I think the overwhelming strong majority of people understand that there's really only one solution right now, and that is to open the government, at least for six weeks, so people can go back to work, so we can take away the harm that's happening to lots of innocent people, and we can have time to work out a more sensible budget for the rest of the year.

BLITZER: Any talks going on, back-channel talks with the speaker to try to work this out?

SPERLING: Well, as you know, the president of the United States met for a while just last night with the leadership, including the speaker of the House. So I think the positions are quite clear. I think what you're starting to hear more and more, Wolf, is people who are starting to focus, not just on the shutdown but on the threat of default and what that would do to our economy and the potential body blow that would inflict on middle-class families who have just seen their pensions and their housing values coming back, and would probably not believe that anyone would possibly threaten a default that would put that type of recovery for our economy but for their own personal situation at risk. And I think there's nothing more important now than to create certainty that there is not going to be a threat of default. And once we extend the debt limit and take away the threat of default, we'll have a stronger economy. But you'll also create room for the president and the Republicans to start talking again about sensible budget issues or even how to improve and reform the Affordable Care Act. All of those things can take place. But not while we have the threat of default or the threat of shutdown being held over the country's head.

BLITZER: Gene Sperling, director of the National Economic Council at the White House.

Let's hope it gets resolves and resolved quickly.

SPERLING: Yes.

BLITZER: Because a lot of people out there are suffering.

SPERLING: Absolutely.

BLITZER: And if it doesn't get resolved, millions of people will suffer. Indeed, the whole U.S. economy could suffer.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much, Gene Sperling --

SPERLING: Thank you.

BLITZER: -- joining us from the White House.

The president may have one option to avoid a bruising battle over the debt ceiling. It would be highly unusual, sort of controversial. We're going to tell you what I think it is after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The budget battle that's brought the federal government to a screeching halt is about to be followed by an even more intense fight over the debt ceiling. October 17th is the deadline for Congress to raise the debt limit so the government can pay all its bills. President Obama could once again find himself in a face-off with House Republicans, but some are suggesting he could avoid that and raise the debt limit by himself.

Brian Todd has been looking into this question for us.

Brian, there are -- some people who have suggested there's a Constitution -- here's the Constitution. There's a constitutional option he has that could avoid a battle over raising the dent ceiling. BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Some people, Wolf, believe he has an option there. We have to make it clear, if he invokes that option, he would be breaking at least one law, the debt limit law that Congress has set. Setting a limit on the debt the U.S. can have and the bills it can pay.

But the one way he can avoid the shutdown is to invoke what you've got there, the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, Section IV, saying, "The validity of the public debt shall not be questioned." Some interpret that as meaning that gives him the authority on his own to pay the nation's bills. Says he's got to pay the bills no matter what. So whatever Congress says, whatever showdown they're having, whatever negotiations they're having, he can circumvent that, invoke that section of the Constitution, and he's legally OK.

Now, some people believe the Constitution doesn't go that far and doesn't really give him the authority. Senator Max Baucus, of the Finance Committee, chairman of the Finance Committee, says that's an option that should be seriously considered. Jay Carney, at the White House a few minutes ago, said they don't want to do that.

I think the political price would be very, very heavy for the president if he did that. Some House Republicans would move to impeach him. There would be a huge political fight if he circumvented these negotiations and went to that amendment. But some are now raising that as a possibility, that the Constitution gives him maybe an opening to do that.

BLITZER: Yeah. He has said himself, the president, he doesn't want to do that. But he has said on several occasions, using the 14th Amendment -- I'll read the exact language, what it says -- "The validity of the public debt of the United States state authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services and suppressing insurrection of rebellion shall not be questioned."

(CROSSTALK)

TODD: That was raised after the Civil War --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Brian, thanks very much.

More coming up later in "The Situation Room."

That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching.

NEWSROOM continues right now with Brooke Baldwin.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, thank you. I'll take it from here.