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Amanpour

Iranian Insider on Talks with West; Malala Yousafzai's Inspiring Story; Imagine a World

Aired October 08, 2013 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour. Perhaps the last most important hope for a diplomatic solution to Iran's nuclear dispute with the West begins next week when Iran's foreign minister Javad Zarif meets the U.S. and other Western powers in Geneva to try to finally hammer out a deal that all sides can live with.

And a positive sign for the diplomatic thaw underway, Tehran and London today announced that they're seeking to reopen their embassies after a two-year rupture in relations.

And tonight, a guardedly optimistic view from Iran, the powerful Speaker of Parliament, Ali Larijani, himself a former chief nuclear negotiator and very close to Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, tells me that Iran is serious about proving that it is not after a nuclear weapon.

My interview with him in a moment.

The upcoming Geneva talks follow a flurry of diplomacy here in New York two weeks ago, when Iran's new president addressed the United Nations and in an interview with me, said that he had been authorized to pursue these negotiations from the very top.

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HASSAN ROUHANI, IRANIAN PRESIDENT: So for the benefit of both nations, I believe that both our priority and perhaps possibly the priority of the other side, the United States, is the nuclear issue. If the nuclear issue is settled conclusively, I believe that that will pave the way for numerous other issues that can be discussed.

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AMANPOUR: And then on the sidelines of the U.N. talks, the U.S. and Iranian foreign ministers met for the first time. And a day later as Rouhani was heading back to Iran, a historic phone call with President Barack Obama. It was the first direct talks between the two presidents in 34 years.

And there was more positive news with Ayatollah Khamenei announced that he backs Mr. Rouhani's recent engagement, though speaking at a military event on Saturday, the Supreme Leader did hint at some disapproval.

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AYATOLLAH ALI KHAMENEI, IRAN'S SUPREME LEADER (through translator): We support the government's diplomatic movements and placed importance on diplomatic efforts. And support was in this last trip. Of course, in our opinion, some of what occurred in the New York trip was not proper.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So tonight, I asked Speaker Larijani what the Supreme Leader was referring to, how much time does President Hassan Rouhani have to negotiate an end to this standoff and does Iran trust the United States to demand anything less than its unconditional surrender?

From Geneva, where he's attending a global meeting of Parliament, Larijani told me that right now, he has no reason to be pessimistic.

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AMANPOUR: Dr. Larijani, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining me from Geneva.

ALI ARDASHIR LARIJANI, CHAIRMAN, PARLIAMENT OF IRAN: Just recently, you, the Parliament, the Majlis in Iran, approved of President Rouhani's trip to the United States and his initial diplomacy and the plan to try to engage and resolve the crisis over the Iranian nuclear program.

Just tell me, does the Parliament approve?

Are you sure all of the consensus in Iran backs this diplomacy?

LARIJANI (through translator): I think Mr. Rouhani, because of his long experience in diplomacy and because he has been active in different sectors, is very familiar with this issue. And his behavior and his attitude and also the -- all his ministers, they enjoy high capabilities to put Iranian diplomacy on the right track.

Therefore, they have the support of the Iranian Parliament. And he had a visit to New York. And we approved whatever he did there.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about what the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, said recently about that visit. You heard that he said he supports diplomacy, but he also said some of the actions in New York were not appropriate.

What did he mean by that?

What was not appropriate?

LARIJANI (through translator): The important thing is that overall his -- what he did was approved by the Supreme Leader. Mr. Rouhani had the privilege and, I mean, he was successful in shedding light on Iran's peaceful nuclear program and telling that world that Iran does not seek a nuclear bomb.

And he said that the Supreme Leader of Iran has issued a fatwa, a religious decree, that they -- weapons of mass destruction is religiously forbidden.

He was also successful in telling the world about the approach of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the approach that Iran is opposed to extremism.

We are a member of NPT; we are a member of IAEA; we have accepted NPT. Therefore, there is no reason to deprive the Iranian -- to deprive the Iranian nation of this right.

Mr. Rouhani also said that the important issues of the world can be resolved politically. These bodies and organizations like the U.N. have been in place for this matter.

You know, threatening other countries is something wrong.

AMANPOUR: Just if you can tell me, what is it that the Supreme Leader thought was not appropriate?

Was it the conversation with President Obama?

LARIJANI (through translator): Maybe. I have not asked him. Maybe that was the point, that he said this was not appropriate.

AMANPOUR: And what do you think as Speaker of the Parliament?

Was that appropriate, to have a -- have an initial conversation with President Obama?

President Obama called President Rouhani.

LARIJANI (through translator): I think -- we should not waste our time on these matters. The important thing is that.

We need diplomacy; we need a political initiative to resolve matters. Iran is a country that has been upset because of the behavior and the attitude of the U.S. As if Mr. Obama, as he said in his speech, he said that they're going to change the approach. You know, we -- the people of Iran are going to judge him by his actions.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, Mr. Larijani, how long does Mr. Rouhani have for these negotiations?

What sort of timeframe are you looking at, is the president looking at, to complete these negotiations over the nuclear program?

LARIJANI (through translator): I think considering the fact that he has that experience in this matter, Iran's nuclear program can be resolved within a short period of time, provided that both sides are serious about it. From our side, I mean, from Iran's side, I can say that we are ready.

I mean, if the Americans and other countries say that, Iran should not develop a nuclear bomb or should not move towards that. Then we can clearly show and prove that we have no such intention. So it can be resolved in a very short period of time.

But if they want to bargain with us or if they have ulterior motives and they want their following other objectives, or maybe they want -- they want to somehow convince Iran to abandon its nuclear program, then it is going to take a long time.

So it all depends on their will.

AMANPOUR: So can I ask you then, you have said that -- and the president has said that you're willing to show more transparency and to convince the world that you are, as you say, not going for a nuclear weapon.

In return for that, and to get this diplomacy started, what are you specifically looking for in sanctions relief or in pledges to remove and start removing sanctions?

LARIJANI (through translator): I think these are the specifics, the details; the important thing is that Iran insists on having access to the peaceful nuclear technology. And Iran is not going to change its mind. They claim that Iran may have the intention to move towards developing nuclear weapons. But we can assure them that we are not moving towards that direction.

But if they want to bargain with us or do other things, then that's a different story. I think the Geneva talks are going to be a very important step.

AMANPOUR: And, of course, they start again next week and Mr. Zarif will be there. The U.S. secretary of state, who has been charged with leading the American side of the negotiations, has said that the P5+1 is now waiting for Iran to disclose to the world how it will, in fact, convince the world that the program is peaceful.

Are you ready to do that? Are you ready to go beyond the existing disclosures and add transparency?

LARIJANI (through translator): If they have any -- they think that something is ambiguous, then they have to tell us about it. So there are two things here: if we want to make this more complicated, if we want to achieve other results by this, then I think the negotiations will be -- will not be successful, will be futile.

But if it is what you are saying now, I mean, transparency, one, transparency, they want to be made sure, then Iran has no problem.

AMANPOUR: And finally, Mr. Larijani, you yourself used to be a nuclear negotiator. This is obviously a very critical time, both for Iran and for the West regarding this issue.

Are you optimistic that diplomacy has a chance this time?

LARIJANI (through translator): I think the atmosphere entails that I be optimistic. But the important thing is to see what happens in practice, because now everything is about the media.

But right now I have no reason to be pessimistic and I hope that the Geneva talks will be real serious and substantive talks. I'm telling you that Iran will be very serious about the talks. And Iran really wants to resolve the matter.

There are other important issues in the matter -- in the region, especially with regards to terrorism in Afghanistan and Syria and Iraq. Serious problems are there. So we have to try to resolve those important issues and mobilize our efforts on them.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Larijani, Speaker of the Iranian Parliament, thank you very much for joining me.

LARIJANI (through translator): Wish all the best.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now along with nuclear diplomacy outside, inside the Iranian people are also testing new boundaries of their freedom, while elsewhere in the region, just going to school can be a radical act for girls.

One year after the Pakistani teenager, Malala Yousafzai, was shot, we found out just how far her classroom campaign has succeeded.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

It'll be one year ago tomorrow that the life of a Pakistani schoolgirl was turned upside down by an unspeakable trauma, and her story became an extraordinary inspiration.

Malala Yousafzai was shot by the Pakistani Taliban as she returned from school in the SWAT Valley. Her crime? Fighting for the right for herself and all girls to be educated.

That bullet pierced her skull, but it didn't pierce her spirit and she has rebuilt her health and her zeal. And she's even a favorite now to win the Nobel Peace Prize, which will be announced in Norway at the end of this week. Her book, "I Am Malala," was released this week and in it, she says, "Let us pick up our books and our pens, they are the most powerful weapons."

Pakistani girls face enormous challenges still. UNICEF has found that in some areas only one out of every five children in Pakistani schools is a girl. UNESCO says that only 65 percent of Pakistani girls are in primary school.

My next guest tonight is herself a female pioneer. She's Pakistan's youngest-ever foreign minister and the first-ever woman in that post, a frequent guest on this program, Hina Rabbani Khar was actually in office when Malala was attacked. And today I ask her whether anything is actually changed for Pakistan's beleaguered women and girls since the Taliban has again threatened to kill Malala.

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AMANPOUR: Hina Rabbani Khar, welcome to the program and thanks for joining me.

HINA RABBANI KHAR, FORMER PAKISTANI PM: Pleasure to be here, as always.

AMANPOUR: You remember, because you were in office when Malala was shot. Just cast your mind back and tell me what went through your mind then.

KHAR: Christiane, it was probably, if I look back at the Pakistan People's Party stam (ph), it was probably one of the more terrific incidents that shook the entire nation, that shook, first of all, but first the Pakistani nation. And I think what came across very clearly was that Malala Yousafzai and what happened to her divided Pakistan in two.

One, the region of Pakistan that we want, that was the region of Dinna (ph), ultra-progressive nation state, where people and citizens grow, develop and enjoy the basic benefits of life; and two, the Pakistan that was trying to be imposed by the Taliban and the terrorist elements with Pakistan, who wanted to really enforce the region of their Pakistan, a Pakistan which was conservative, a Pakistan which had no space for minorities, a Pakistan, for heaven's sake, which had no space for girls' education.

So the line was drawn. And the gray area was contracted to the -- to a very large extent. And we had black and white in front of us.

AMANPOUR: Right. Well, now, I wonder whether you think there's any hope or any progress? First of all, Malala's made an unbelievable recovery, but she's still talking out. She's still speaking out for the right of girls. And the Taliban have already said again that they're going to try and kill her again.

KHAR: I know; that's absolutely ridiculous. And in some ways I think any proponents and supporters of the Taliban mindset in the mainstream of Pakistan, (inaudible) right, left or the center, I think it's a wakeup call for all of them.

Because for any entity, no matter how conservative, no matter how traditional it is, to be threatened by a 16- or a 14-year-old girl and her belief in her right of education just revealed them like nothing else has.

In some ways, I think this is the contrast is so overwhelming that in some ways it helped Pakistan is to (inaudible) Pakistan as to who these people really are. And the fact that we cannot have Pakistan being taken over by such part and such people.

AMANPOUR: Well, you're absolutely right. And there have been, at least in the last year, about 100 schools, girls' schools, which have been attacked by the Taliban.

But let's be very clear that, even since the '50, the Pakistani governments have not been successful in getting education, particularly to girls. And now they are even perhaps doubts that they're going to meet the goal of education for all kids by 2015.

So what can your government to, Taliban or no Taliban, to actually make education a priority and to allocate funds?

KHAR: You know, you talked about 1950. I think the genesis of this problem really lies in Pakistan's government structure. And the genesis of the problem of the government structures lies in (inaudible) of the system by martial laws which were imposed, by military rules which were imposed.

And as you know, the priority of the military rule is never to educate its children or to educate the girls. The priority of the military rule is always to, you know, (inaudible) the security paradigm. So it's really a failure and a big (inaudible) of government structures over years, over decades, that we are facing right now.

So currently there needs to be an education emergency in this country, even if I were to tell you the case of even Savas (ph), where Malala comes from, do you know that 53 percent of the schools in Savas do not have electricity? And that 60 percent have no clean drinking water?

So this just shows how much work that needs to be done. Let me just tell you that the Pakistan People's Party government in the previous term ensured that through a constitutional amendment, education was now the responsibility of the state to give to the children. And a fundamental right of the children.

And more importantly, the one reason why there was always a lack of focus on education was that there was a strange sort of a division between what was the federal responsibility and what was the state or the provincial responsibility.

So through the constitutional amendment, we were able to give this responsibility clearly and the allocation of funds clearly back to the provinces, whose job it is to educate and especially at the primary level.

However, that's just 25 million Pakistanis school children or school- age children between 5 and 16 who are out of school. And there -- the proportion of women or girls, as you can imagine, is even greater. It's 15 million. So if you look at the proportion, we need to work on education for boys and girls. But certainly, certainly those of girls.

AMANPOUR: And still, the question remains how you're going to do it, how successive governments will do it.

But let me ask you this. One of Malala's great heroines, her hero, was Benazir Bhutto, the first female prime minister of Pakistan. You were the first female foreign minister, the youngest ever foreign minister. And yet you've now given up your seat. You're obviously no longer in government. But you've also given up your seat.

Why? Why have you chosen to get out of politics? And what kind of message does that send to girls in Pakistan?

KHAR: Christiane, I'm by no means have I quitted politics. I'm still very much in politics. The reason I am on your show is because I'm still very much, you know, active in politics. Well, there are about a dozen and more (inaudible) who could not get reelected, and I chose not to run for this election.

But I -- there will be more elections. And I'm very active within the Pakistan People's Party. And I hope to remain exceptionally active within the -- you know, the political framework.

I think more than --

AMANPOUR: You say you couldn't get reelected. But you've given your seat up for your father. Does that -- is that a tacit acknowledgement that actually women don't have a lot of chance?

KHAR: No, not at all. My father -- you know, I contested for my family when I had brothers. Specifically, you only put out the women when there are no males who can sort of run for election. But there are other avenues to reach Parliament. So I will certainly be exploring other avenues.

So I thought -- we thought as a family that it was better for my father to be in the national assembly and I could explore other avenues.

But I think really the focus of education I had to do with two things. One was primarily lack of allocation of funds, which we believe in the People's Party government by making that constitutional amendment, we have taken care of to quite an extent.

The other, Christiane, which is actually more difficult is the government structures. And as democracy takes serious roots in Pakistan, and grows and flourishes, I have no doubt that this will remain a big priority. And this is, by the way, the only thing that will take Pakistan out of the nexus of terrorism and many other ills that we find Pakistan surrounded by today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: The former Pakistani foreign minister, Hina Rabbani Khar, speaking to me from Lahore.

And when we come back, the effects of the U.S. shutdown are reaching across the ocean, and even into the realm of memory. After a break, imagine a world where even paying your respects to those who fall in the field of combat is prevented by a lack of government funding.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where government grinds to a halt but memory persists and prevails. Here in the United States, the federal shutdown drags on and dominates the headlines.

But far from Washington, in what the poets call "foreign fields," regiments of plain white headstones stand silent and unvisited. Among the casualties of the shutdown are 24 American military cemeteries and 25 memorials which are now closed until further notice.

Some are famous, like the lush green bluff above Normandy Beach at Colleville-sur-Mer, celebrated in the film, "Saving Private Ryan," where Allied troops fought and died on D-Day to liberate France and all of Europe from the Nazi nightmare.

And thousands of miles away, where two years earlier, Allied forces had stormed the beaches of North Africa, the American military cemetery in Tunisia is also closed now, along with its chapel, bearing memorials etched in Arabic, French and English.

Around the globe in 10 different countries, 125,000 Americans lie in lands they came to liberate far from home, but never far from the thoughts who remember their service and their sacrifice.

And tomorrow, the star of "Saving Private Ryan," the Oscar-winning actor, Tom Hanks, joins me for a very special program. His powerful new film, "Captain Phillips," portrays the true story of piracy and U.S. military heroism off the coast of Somalia. And we'll also meet the real- life Somali who plays a crucial role in the story. All that on our program tomorrow, so join us then.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember, always contact us at amanpour.com and follow me on Twitter and Facebook. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.

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