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Dr. Drew
Band Director Off Hook; Kidnapper`s Death Details
Aired October 16, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, harassed, taunted and tormented -- a 12-year-old girl jumping to her death. Now, two classmates are under arrest. We`ll hear from the boyfriend at the center of all of this.
Plus, a high school band director sent over 300 text messages to a female student. He tells her, "I love you and I want to take you home." His attorney joins us to explain.
Let`s get started.
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(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host, Jenny Hutt.
And two middle-school girls have been arrested and charged with stalking after relentlessly tormenting their classmate, 12-year-old Rebecca Sedwick.
The harassment, Jenny, was so severe, the police said it led to Rebecca committing suicide by jumping off an abandon structure.
One of the girls even had been bragging about her online taunting. And tonight, that girl`s parents are defending her.
We`re also learning --
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Oh, c`mon.
PINSKY: It`s hard to imagine, but they`re saying --
HUTT: Those parents need to get in trouble.
PINSKY: Maybe. They`re saying that her computer was hacked, you`ll learn about this. This all may be the result of adolescent triangle.
The boy, who once dated Rebecca, the girl who jumped, joins us in a few minutes to shed light on this story. That should be interesting.
But, first, I want you to take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our victim Rebecca was only 12 years of age.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She took her over life by jumping from a cement tower. He arrested the girls after one of these posted this message on Facebook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I bullied Rebecca and she killed herself, but I don`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was free to post this even though she said she was hacked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rebecca was absolutely terrorized on social media.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It all started, authorities say, over a boy. The 14- year-old, they say, didn`t like that Rebecca had once dated a boy she was now dating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She began to harass and ultimately torment Rebecca.
Watch what your children do online. They were released back to their parents last night on home arrest. I`m just a curious as I can be, if the parents are still allowing them access to their electronics devices.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I remember telling her, you know, Becca, don`t listen to them, they`re beautiful, they`re just jealous of you, and -- she would say, well, you`re my mom, you have to say that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us: Lynn Berry, HLN host, Mike Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, Lauren Lake, attorney and presiding judge on "Paternity Court" and Dean Obeidallah, CNN.com and "Daily Beast" contributor.
I want to first remind viewers of the online message that have prompted these arrests.
So, after Rebecca jumped, one of the girls posted this on Facebook, "Yes, I bullied Rebecca and she killed herself, but I don`t give -- IDGAF."
Lauren, your reaction?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, it disgusts me. And this is a problem, because we see this so much as we talk on this show. Our culture, it`s becoming so cruel, so mean.
I mean, you can`t believe a young person would post that after such a tragedy, and yet there`s something about our culture where we`re becoming desensitized to death, to what it means to humiliate someone, to torment someone?
We lack consideration for other people and their feelings. I think this is evidenced by this. There is no excuse for this.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
And, Dean, as we were talking with Jenny, the parents of the children who posted that IDGAF message was defending her. I`m going to show you footage in a second, but, Dean, you have a thought?
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, DAILY BEAST: I understand they`re defending them. Parents always defend. But let`s be honest, there has to be a zero tolerance policy for any tormenting and harassing, where the students is a victim feel as comfortable enough to go forward to the school. Administrators are not just helping themselves, but might be helping others, too, because tormenters, bullies, are probably doing it to other students as well.
PINSKY: All right. Take a look at what the parents are saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Is that something your daughter would write?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, she wouldn`t write anything like that. She`s not that type of girl that would say something like that.
REPORTER: You checked her Facebook every night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I would check her Facebook every time that she would get on it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, every night, she would get on --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
REPORTER: So, you check her Facebook every night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: They went so far as to say their daughter`s Facebook had been hacked. I see, Jenny, you reacting but, Mark --
HUTT: There`s just no way.
PINSKY: Mark, go at it.
MARK EIGLARSH: Well, you ether have, it`s one or two, it`s either number one, Mama Cleopatra, queen of denial, or someone hacked their daughter`s computer. It`s one or the other.
And let me just say, I`m not picking up my pitch fork just yet, there are ways to prove electronically, forensically whether a computer has been hacked. Absent that, this mother needs to turn to her daughter and teach her a lesson.
PINSKY: Now, Lynn, you`re gently nodding your head. You know something we don`t know?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: No, it`s not. It`s so disturbing to see parents place the blame on hacking of their Facebook page. What about the other tormenting messages that drink bleach and die? That was a message that this 14-year-old electronically sent to poor Rebecca before she jumped to her death.
This is no joke. The cop in this case said, I want to have the entire full force of the law fall on this 14 and 12-year-old, so that other kids can learn a lesson, that you are not behind a blank computer screen. There is a human being on the other end. Your words are powerful and they hurt, and with a fragile girl. It can have a serious effect.
PINSKY: Lynn, this gets so complicated because many times, the kids are bullying oftentimes had abuse history or themselves are suffering in some sort of significant way. I am hearing -- I cannot confirm this, but we`re trying to get on this, that there`s some -- perhaps footage that would tell you about the younger of these girls that would help her understand what -- this just roll downhill, one upon the other.
To me, at a clinician, I feel helpless against this sort of infecting, it`s almost like a virus that gets out once one person has been subjected to some sort of abuse, it barrels on out through social media, and affects so many others. Anybody want to comment on that?
BERRY: That`s why when Jenny said these parents need to get in trouble, she makes a great point. Usually it`s likely that these kids went through something that would cause them to be so cruel, and usually it comes from the parents.
PINSKY: Jenny?
HUTT: Well, also, Dr. Drew, look, these parents saying the computer was hacked, and that the mother checked the Facebook every night, I believe they have seven children. Is she checking seven Facebook accounts every night? There`s no way to check every little thing your kid is doing. However, there is a way to know your child.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
HUTT: In the car, in the morning, you talk, you figure out who your kid is.
EIGLARSH: You know, slippery slope, however, if we start putting shackles on parents who are supposed to know every single their kids are tweeting, are adding on Facebook. I`m just saying that you --
HUTT: Not everything.
EIGLARSH: -- can`t punish parents and arrest them. You can`t arrest them when their kids are going astray to this extent. I don`t know if that`s a good idea.
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: With the tormenting?
LAKE: There`s no way for them to police this all day long. I`ve got to agree with Mark on some levels. The kids cry around their phones now. Parents have to work. They have our kids. There`s no way to police all day long what your children are doing on social media or saying or texting.
(CROSSTALK)
BERRY: It`s about raising good kids.
LAKE: Oh, I agree with that.
PINSKY: But, Lauren is making a great point, is that very often we can`t do it alone, as parents. We need professionals, we need the school system.
Dean, you`re nodding your head. You agree?
OBEIDALLAH: I agree with that. That`s why you need the school system. Today, thing about it if I was a kid, if people were tormenting me, all you had to do was avoid them. Today, you can`t. With social media, with text messages, your tormenter is there 24/7, unless you`re able to block them. Only recently are you able to block people through text messages through apps.
So, it`s much more challenging for the parents. They`re there at school for hours a day. I have three little nieces. My sister can`t be there all the time. So, you have to (INAUDIBLE) have a policy of zero tolerance with this type of situation. It`s got to be made clear there at the school.
PINSKY: I want to show you some footage --
EIGLARSH: Well --
PINSKY: Hang on.
EIGLARSH: I don`t like zero tolerance. I don`t like that zero tolerance phrase, because let me just say this: kids can express their opinions about other kids, I don`t like you, you know, opinions versus criminal --
HUTT: Drink bleach and die?
EIGLARSH: That`s over the line. I won`t defend that.
OBEIDALLAH: I think there`s a line between -- there`s a line, though.
HUTT: If my kid had ever typed that, she would not have a device for a year. Forget it.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s -- thank you, panel. Good job.
We`re going to go to the next -- actually I believe a behavior bureau. We`re going to hear from the boyfriend at the center of the story.
And later -- get this, guys -- a high school band director sends hundreds of texts to 15-year-old student, which includes things like I love you, and you`re mine, and his attorney, Mark, is speaking a slippery slope. His attorney is going to try to explain this to us. We`ll see what he`s got say.
We`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This all started apparently as a result of (AUDIO DELETED) current boyfriend, who is Rebecca`s former boyfriend. (AUDIO DELETED) didn`t like that, and she began to harass and ultimately torment Rebecca.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. My co-host is Jenny Hutt and we`re discussing 12-year-old Rebecca Sedwick, who police say killed herself after having been harassed by two classmates. In the conversation we`re just having generated this tweet from St. Peter.
You people are making excuses for suicide. Now, more kids will commit suicide to get back at bullies. Is that what you want?
Jenny, I think it`s pretty clear, that`s not what we want. It raises an interesting point, though, I don know what else to say about this, is that adolescents do have a magical way of thinking, where if they feel as though, if they commit suicide, they`ll be somehow present to see the consequences of their aggression. In other words, getting back at people who might be hurt by their suicide.
Does that make sense to you?
HUTT: I think, Dr. Drew, last night Wendy Walsh I think had said, where were Rebecca`s parents? I think what she meant was, how do you help your child understand that suicide is never an option?
PINSKY: And remember, we also that she had been held before this child, so he has a history of depression and things. So, again, it`s a complicated situation, but let`s get the behavior in here.
We got Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox" and Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
The story`s gotten a lot of attention in recent weeks. We want to examine all the angles so we can understand this, as I was just discussing, what might have led to this girl`s suicide and to prevent further tragedies of this sort.
Now, the tormenting seem to began after one of the girls started dating Rebecca`s ex-boyfriend, John Borgen and John joins us now by phone. I`ve asked his mother Yovani to remain on the phone while we speak with him.
Behavior panel stand by. I`m going to give you guys a chance to ask, John, questions, if you have any.
First of all, thank you, Yovani, for allowing us to speak with your son.
YOVANI BORGEN, MOTHER (via telephone): You`re welcome.
PINSKY: John, first of all, how are you? Are you OK?
JOHN BORGEN, 13-YEAR-OLD, DATED VICTIM & SUSPECT (via telephone): Yes, I`m OK. She`s just didn`t say anything to anybody that she was being bullied. That problem should have been -- that problem would have been situated.
PINSKY: How do you say, John, how things should have gone down?
JOHN BORGEN: If she would have -- if she would have told somebody, it would have helped everything.
PINSKY: And when you first heard she had killed herself, what was your reaction?
JOHN BORGEN: I was -- I was shocked. I didn`t think -- I didn`t think she would do it. Like I didn`t think she would be that person -- I didn`t she it would be her, somebody that I knew for a long, long time.
PINSKY: Yes, it`s tough. Did you have any sense she was being bullied? A lot of Facebook posts we found, some pretty nasty things were being said.
JOHN BORGEN: But at the time on Facebook, I wasn`t friends with her.
PINSKY: So after you broke up, you were not communicating with her on Facebook?
JOHN BORGEN: Yes, I was like -- but after a while communicate --
PINSKY: OK, John, hang on one second. I want to bring the panel in here, a chance to ask you questions.
Who in the panel has question for John?
Judy, go ahead.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Hi, John. Thanks for being with us.
So, I know you used to date Rebecca, too. What were some of the things that you knew about her and her personality? I know you said you were very shocked --
PINSKY: Let me remind everybody, John is 14, right?
JOHN BORGEN: I`m 13.
PINSKY: Thirteen, when you were calling it dating, when you were hanging out with Rebecca, how old were you guys?
JOHN BORGEN: Actually when I was dating her, I was 13 at the time still.
PINSKY: So go ahead, Judy. What did you learn about Rebecca? Is that right?
HO: Yes, just what did you learn about Rebecca from hanging out with her. What was her personal like? Because you said that you were very shock that this happened?
JOHN BORGEN: She was a great girl. She was nice, she was sweet, you know? We would make jokes and laugh together and walk around the track of our school.
PINSKY: So this is a very sit situation, isn`t it, John?
JOHN BORGEN: Yes, very.
PINSKY: Wendy?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think you`re confusing too, John, because here in some ways you`re acting in adolescent appropriate behavior, right? You`re hanging out with a friend who happens to be a girl, but now you`re the person being called, what is it, the middle man, between this girl fight. How does that feel?
JOHN BORGEN: Actually to me -- that was -- that shocked me. I`m like I`m right in the middle of it. If I knew they had like gotten into, like, an argument. I would have dated --
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: John, kids at this age are really emotionally undeveloped and I just really want you, honey, to focus on your school and take some time with this whole thing of dating and girl/boy relationship, and just live your life, have fun, try to release your self of some of this negative energy around this and just try to move forward as a nice young kid that you obviously are, and just kind of focus on yourself.
PINSKY: Go ahead, John.
JOHN BORGEN: Oh, no, I just answering yes, ma`am.
PINSKY: And, John, while I totally agree with you 100 percent, she`s never been a 13 year old boy, so I got your back, man. I understand.
Jenny, your turn?
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: I just wanted to ask you. The accused kids -- the kids accused of tormenting Rebecca, what are their personalities like?
JOHN BORGEN: Actually, the rest of the people I don`t know. Like the 15 girls from --
HUTT: The two girls who were arrested?
JOHN BORGEN: The two girls that were arrested --
PINSKY: Hang on. John, be careful, we`re not going to divulge anybody`s identities, so we`re not going to use names here, right?
HUTT: No, no, I won`t say their names.
PINSKY: But, John has to be sure he hasn`t use the names. Go ahead, John.
JOHN BORGEN: All right, well, the first girl, the 12-year-old, she`s nice to me, and we talked like sometimes. The 14-year-old, she`s like -- she`s nice and she`s sweet.
PINSKY: John, I understand you had a question for me.
JOHN BORGEN: Oh, I had a question. Tell me how many -- when people are the victims of bullies, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
JOHN BORGEN: If they speak up, tell me how many lives they can change be speaking up?
PINSKY: Well, John, you`re asking a profound question, actually. I said this yesterday, which is basically "see something, say something."
And you could start a movement that would save untold amounts of misery.
JOHN BORGEN: That`s exactly what I want to do.
PINSKY: John, you have our full support. I`m sorry you`re in the middle of all this. Yovani, I wonder if you have any closing remarks for us. Anything you`d like to say on John`s behalf?
YOVANI BORGEN: Yes, I wanted to tell to the parents that, you know just -- sometimes I -- you know, like right now I`m a single parent. I have five boys, and it`s hard, you know, to get attention on your kids, but sometimes you have to leave some things apart and focus on your kids and see what they`re doing.
I know it`s hard, but you`ve got to have time for your kids. Love them and tell them what`s right and what`s wrong?
PINSKY: How will you deal with electronic media going forward?
YOVANI BORGEN: I`m always accessing their Facebook, and always telling them don`t, you know, especially with the bullying, they know I don`t agree with that.
PINSKY: You`re on it.
YOVANI BORGEN: Before this, you know, I make, you know, laugh at nobody, or don`t make other people hurt or hurt people`s feelings -- no matter how badly, you know, if they even say something mean, you ignore it. I told parents, tell your kids you love them and support them and that`s what I told my boys.
PINSKY: Sam, you`re an electronic media specialist here, give us the last word.
SCHACHER: Last word, 100 percent, parents, monitor what your children are doing as best you can. I know you can`t police them all the time, as Jenny had stated, but the best you can, know your kids. I think Jenny said it best earlier on.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you, Yovani. Thank you, John. We appreciate you joining us.
We are switching gears and discuss a high school band director who spent more than who sent this is another electronic media story. More than 300 texts to 15-year-old student, telling her things such as "you`re mine," "I love you, sweetheart", I`m going to show a bunch more. His attorney is here is going to try to explain to us what that was all about.
Later, new revelation from the night Ariel Castro was found hanging by a sheet in his jail cell.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.
And, Jenny, a lot of Twitter action. I got a tweet from Alison Perera (ph). She says, "She was bullied for an entire year. People had to have seen it and ignored it. If only one person had done something, she may still be here."
Alison, thank you for that comment. Our viewers --
HUTT: I just have to say, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I have something to say, though -- our viewers make great Twitter- verse? Is that how you say it? I`m pretty uncool. They`re good Twitter - -
HUTT: The Twitter-sphere.
PINSKY: Make a great Twitter-sphere. We appreciate it. We will continue to read and place them as an important part of the show.
To the same point John was saying really and God bless him for being such an alert kid.
HUTT: Well, more than alert, Dr. Drew. I think he`s a remarkable young man to be so composed. My gosh, I beneficiary him just healing and happiness. It`s just so unfortunate and so -- such a great kid.
PINSKY: You know, when you have 13-year-olds, don`t expect other 13-year- olds to be done and it can affect them deeply, you may not see it on the surface. It may trickle down later on. So, we`ve go to watch very carefully.
Switching gears, we`re going to discuss now a former band director, a high school band director. He`s in the clear tonight after he had been caught exchanging racy text messages with a 15-year-old. Many of the nearly 700 texts were a bit more than just creepy.
HUTT: Seven hundred!
PINSKY: Well, between the two of them nearly 700. They weren`t actually illegal, though, apparently.
Now, the 38-year-old Jared Murray and his lawyer took questions from the media after he had been cleared. So, we want to share this with you. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of them say, you know, good night my precious angel. Sweet dreams, I love you. There`s another one, I love you. A lot of "I love yous" in there.
JARED MURRAY: With that kid in particular, I always tell them I love them like they`re my own child. That student in particular had come to me several times. We had had like a relationship growing as a father-daughter relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But some of the things I don`t think people would say is a father even. You know, doll baby, things like that, even for a father to say would be, I don`t know, maybe people might say creepy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, if I may --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I guess they might.
Joining us, Lynn, Mark, Lauren and Dean.
Lynn, give us more facts about this bandleader and his relationship with his student.
HUTT: OK. He is this guy. He`s 38 years old, married, by the way, band teacher, music teacher. The girl, 15 year old student. Between the two of them, over 700 texts.
He said I love you to her 11 times and talked about smacking her bottom three times? Inappropriate? Cops say yes. Criminal? No.
So what happens. He is suspended. He then resigns, not fired.
And here`s the kicker: he hopes that he will be able to teach again. He`s actually lawyered up to get hi named cleared so that his teaching certificate is not associated with this. As you heard him say, he was more in a father-daughter relationship.
But I have to say, what`s so disturbing about this is 15-year-old girls. And, Dr. Drew, I know you talk about this all the time.
PINSKY: Yes?
BERRY: It`s not -- they`re not able to decipher those kinds of relationships. It`s such a huge responsibility of the responsibility.
PINSKY: It`s us maintaining the boundaries on behalf of the forming psyche.
Dean, what do you say?
OBEIDALLAH: It might not be illegal, but I think everyone feels there`s something wrong. He sent 350 text messages in nine days. I haven`t sent that many texts in my life. This is 40 a day. That`s like his job. His job was to text this girl, it seems like.
I think everyone feels the same thing. It`s not kosher, it`s inappropriate. And him saying a father-daughter relationship with a text like you already know I`m going to smack your ass, whose father says that to their daughter? That sounds creepy beyond creepy.
PINSKY: Not only that, not able to perceive the inappropriateness. That is really where the problem is, isn`t it?
LAKE: Oh, yes. Up at the microphone just talking like we`re really going to believe you`re talking to your daughter?
Dr. Drew, this is so inappropriate on so many levels. I would even go so far to say, it`s borderline abusive. It`s emotionally abusive because this girl at 15 years old, how is she processing this?
PINSKY: Right.
LAKE: He loves me, he cares about me? What does this mean?
It`s obviously sexual to any adult, but this -- I`m sorry, for a child, for a minor, we should not allow this to happen. If this state doesn`t have a law on the books that protects children from this type of approach and behavior, they need to get one.
PINSKY: And, Mark, it doesn`t seem to.
EIGLARSH: Well, no, and let me just say this, if he sent these to my precious daughter, I would do everything I could to see that he never step into another classroom again. That being said, I would still represent him pro bono, because what he did was unbelievably creepy and inappropriate, but clearly not unlawful, and there is a clear distinction.
PINSKY: I`m glad, Jenny, I don`t have to pursue --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: His --
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: Right. I thought, Mark, you were going to say that you would march in to the classroom and punch the guy.
PINSKY: That`s what I thought he was going to say.
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: I would encourage my husband to do just that.
EIGLARSH: Why would I do that?
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: Anger is one letter shy of danger. I wouldn`t do that. I would just do everything I could to ensure he doesn`t go near a child again.
PINSKY: No, Lauren`s point, I want to read you something. We spoke to the mother of the girl just before coming in the air tonight. I want to read you what she said, because it goes to Lauren`s point very clearly. "My daughter is slowly recovering. She had a lot of backlash from students and parents, but she`s in a safe environment now. I don`t believe his claims of just mentoring her. He shouldn`t teach again."
She added that she`s glad there are no felony charges, because it would mean her daughter would have to suffer more and have to recover more. But the point is Lauren, the one you`re making, which is the child is dragged too deep into closeness. It`s boundaries, inappropriate, it`s going to end, and when it does, now what is this child do with this?
LAUREN LAKE, JUDGE, "PATERNITY COURT": Exactly. And that`s why I feel it`s reckless for an adult. I do not think this is an appropriate behavior on any level, and like I said, there needs to be some type of punishment even if it`s just a misdemeanor. Dr. Drew, this young girl, when you think of two 15-year-olds, a boy and a girl -- yes, Mark, I said it -- when you think of two young kids.
Listen, two young kids, 15-year-old dealing with emotions, with this level of I love you, I love you, we worry about our kids on that level. We cannot, in any way, tolerate as a society our teachers, the people we trust with our children to educate them, to be speaking to them in this inappropriate way when we know this is happening.
I already said, if there`s not a law on the books that protects it now, OK, you`re right, he can`t be prosecuted, but there need to be something.
PINSKY: We must drop it there, Mark. Hold on. Next, I actually have the attorney representing this former band director here to give his explanation of what this is all about. It will be interesting.
And later, the "Behavior Bureau" looks at new details from the night Ariel Castro died. There is a discrepancy. You`re not going to believe what the discrepancy is about. Stay with us. We`ll talk about it.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up, top of the hour on "After Dark," a jury has been seated in the next big trial, Utah versus Dr. Martin MacNeill accused of drugging and drowning his wife in the bathtub.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right. Opening statements coming up. But today, we are all about what happened in that bathroom. That`s why we`re asking our in-studio jury the bold question, did the beauty queen wife accidentally drown.
POLITAN: A verdict by the end of the program, top of the hour, "After Dark."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t feel that you were being creepy at any point in this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir, I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I consider you mine. We would have tons of fund. There was talk about her moving in, this sort of thing. These are the kind of things people would be asking about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve offered her and I`ve offered all of my band students that if they want to get away for a few days, they can come stay with my wife and I where they can get away from whatever they need to get away from, sit, chill out, you know, be a part of our family at our house, and then get back to their home life with their parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does your wife say about this? I mean, can you relate to us what her reaction has been through all of this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, she`s upset.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back, with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Also, Lynn, Mark, Lauren, Wendy. And Jenny, yes, well, you would be upset if you`re the wife, would you not?
HUTT: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: And, it was kind of difficult to listen to him talk about bringing the other kids into the lair there.
HUTT: Come on over. Come on.
PINSKY: We are talking about the hundreds of text exchange between a 38- year-old high school band leader and a 15-year-old female student. And kindly joining us now is Christopher Roach. He is the attorney for Jared Murray. And Mr. Roach, first of all, thank you for joining us. I know this has been probably challenging for you, but what`s the explanation?
VOICE OF CHRISTOPHER ROACH, ATTORNEY FOR JARED MURRAY: I mean, it`s pretty much exactly what he said. I mean, some of these kids don`t necessarily have the best home life-- I believe that the actual number of texts was 104 texts. And most of the comments spurt of, you know, two or three as far as small conversations.
I mean, he`s inviting them over to have a place that they come over if they feel like their home life is too hectic, and his wife was actually OK with that.
PINSKY: At one point. Lynn, go ahead. You have a question for Mr. Roach.
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Well, Chris going over and popping some popcorn for a movie with he and his wife is one thing, but smacking a student on the bottom, I`m referring to that three times, is an entirely different thing. Can you please justify that in some way if you can?
ROACH: Yes. I mean, absolutely. A lot of times, besides the fact that these are text messages, so he`s not exactly writing a letter which would have full context or anything like that. I mean, he`s talking about being a disciplinarian.
PINSKY: Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Is there anything that he admits that he did was inappropriate at any time? Does he say I wish I had done things a little differently? Can we get a little bit of that from him or you?
ROACH: Yes. No. He definitely feels right now that the way the text that he put out were -- especially taken out of context like this, he`s definitely reconsidering how he`s communicating with students. But as far as being inappropriate in and of themselves in context, I don`t think that -- and he doesn`t think that they were inappropriate. The problem is we don`t have the other text to really be able to say anything about them.
PINSKY: Mr. Roach, Wendy Walsh is with us. She`s a clinical psychologist. And Wendy, let`s talk about this from the context of the boundarylessness, the boundary violations and the fact that he doesn`t perceive these boundaries. That`s why he was able to say these things. Do you have any questions from Mr. Roach?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. I want to know, is there any other single student that he`s had this amount of text with, text exchange with?
ROACH: To be honest, I can`t answer that. I do know that he has said that he texts students frequently. I think there might have been a special situation with the student in this case considering that there was a thing in there about her being in group therapy.
WALSH: And does he use the words "I love you"? I mean, the point I`m really making here is that it`s really incumbent on the adult to hold the boundaries. And something -- and again, this is not necessarily defending his what I think is, you know, again, not illegal, but very inappropriate behavior.
But I want people to understand how it happens. When high school teachers live in an adolescent environment, they start to -- almost a part of their brain starts to remember themselves as an adolescent. They almost forget who they were, if you will.
PINSKY: But Wendy, when they do that, that`s when they`ve slipped into territory that they don`t belong.
WALSH: Exactly.
PINSKY: That`s the problem.
WALSH: That`s one of the reasons why school is one of the few places in our culture where we still call people Mr. and Mrs. and sir and ma`am, to keep those boundaries, whereas all the adults are called by first names. But yet, in those texts, she called him by his first name, Murray.
So already that`s a sign about boundaries. And then, there was a text about, well, we did really good at not telling anybody this week. And she (ph) said, why should we worry about that? This is natural. What does that mean?
PINSKY: Hold on. Listen --
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: I`m just thinking about how this is a residual from the 1960s and 1970s. But, hey, whatever you`re into, man, this is unhealthy. Wendy, you agree? Unhealthy, that`s what we`re trying to say here. Mr. Roach, I`ll give you the last word. Go ahead.
ROACH: Yes. I mean, he did -- he told all the students he loved them. And there`s -- he admitted that, talking in a few other interviews that he did. But as far as this goes, I mean, a lot of these students have home situations that aren`t necessarily -- they might not be getting that type of attention from their parents or from their grandparents.
PINSKY: Chris Roach, Mr. Roach, I`ve got to say something here to wrap this up, which is just to say, listen, I understand the motivation to rescue these children. That`s a noble motivation, but without doing so in a healthy way with boundaries, you`re retraumatizing these kids that already been traumatized. Wendy, do you sign up for that? Do you agree with what I`m saying here?
WALSH: Absolutely.
PINSKY: That`s where this is a problem. People don`t understand that. We have a sentiment. That`s why it creeps out. Listen, I believe -- I can believe that he had good motivation --
WALSH: No way!
PINSKY: No, I can believe that, but the fact --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: -- but there`s a part of him that went to a bad place. He didn`t understand how traumatic it was for these kids and it really is a problem which is why these things must be so clear. Wendy, last word.
WALSH: I think he was being seriously clueless, but I think he was clueless and he was hurting people. And if these children are in homes whether not getting the love they deserve, it makes them easier to victimize, even if it`s done not intentionally.
PINSKY: There you go. Next, the "Behavior Bureau" looks at new details from the night Cleveland kidnapper, Ariel Castro, died in prison. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man convicted of holding three women prisoner for a decade is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been kidnapped and I`ve been missing for ten years, and I`m here. I`m free now.
PINSKY (voice-over): Ariel Castro commits suicide, hangs himself in prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New questions have emerged in the hanging death of Ariel Castro.
PINSKY: Cleveland kidnapper, Ariel Castro, may not have intentionally committed suicide, but died by accident, as a result of something called autoerotic asphyxiation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At a sentencing, Castro admitted to a sexual addiction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe I am addicted to porn.
PINSKY: Autoerotic asphyxiation is where people tie something around their neck. They secure it, and then they lead into it when they`re doing this self-stimulation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I continue to practice the art of masturbation, two or three hours a day, nonstop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I think we`re fascinated by this, because we`re always fascinated with criminal minds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The true judgment day is where God comes and judges me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt. And tonight, a newly released incident reports shed some light on events that unfold the night that Cleveland kidnapper, Ariel Castro, died. Now, Jenny, according to the report, I`m going to review this with you, and you`re going to walk through it with me.
According to the report, the correction officers discovered him hanging for a prison cell window hinge at 9:20. A bed sheet was wrapped around his neck and shorts were around his ankles. He was unresponsive. The officers lifted his body and began performing CPR until the medics arrived at 10:05, which is like 40 minutes later, which is kind of interesting.
He was then pronounced dead at a nearby medical center at 11 o`clock with somewhat said 55 minutes later. Now, some people look at that timeline and go, whoa, they must have been taking their time. They weren`t doing anything. A couple of things, I disagree with that. Once you start CPR, you aren`t to stop until a licensed person tells you to stop, until somebody in authority -- you must continue.
And a little known sort of secret (ph), is that many institutions don`t like it for somebody to die at their facility. It triggers a ton of paperwork. So, they take them out for them to die in the hospital, even though they`re doing fruitless lifesaving attempts. He was clearly already gone, but he went for another hour with continue resuscitation attempts, and then, ultimately died at the hospital. Does that make sense?
HUTT: It makes sense. I`m still the auto-erotic -- that whole two to three hours a day of the art of -- the whole thing just ouch and ugh.
PINSKY: Yes. Ugh, indeed.
Bring in "Behavior Bureau," we have Danine, Wendy, Samantha, and Lauren. Now, the report provided no new details on whether he`d hung himself or died accidentally, but last week`s report said the underwear and the pants were around his ankle. And this incident report says only the pants. No one is explaining the discrepancy. Danine, you`re always suspicious of everything. Should we be suspicious here?
(LAUGHTER)
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Yes. And I`ll tell you why, I believe last week`s report. This guy is the type of person that`s spent an inordinate amount of time fondles his junk, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
MANETTE: And I am quite sure that that is the reason that they weren`t doing the checks on him, because he would spend hours on end doing this. Who wants to see that?
PINSKY: Danine, as always, you`re diabolical mind, you`re diabolical mind comes up with an interesting explanation. I agree with you.
MANETTE: Too much information.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
MANETTE: Nobody wants to look in on that everything --
PINSKY: That is interesting.
MANETTE: I agree with last week`s report.
PINSKY: All right. Lauren, you agree with that?
LAKE: Well, you know, that was interesting. I hadn`t thought of it, because you know --
PINSKY: Listen, you guys, only the diabolical mind of Danine gives us that kind of insight.
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: I will say when this suicide story first came out and I had to check myself, because I was like, who cares? I`m glad he`s gone. I had to really say to myself, that`s inappropriate, Lauren. However, there was something in the back of my mind that say, there`s something else. Was there foul play? You know, does somebody else get to him? Was this staged?
And then, when we start getting facts about the shorts being down and then coming back here and just the pants were down, see, it`s relevant to me. Were the shorts and the pants down? Were there any signs of him being raped? Was there any other signs on his body that maybe he was accosted, molested?
I don`t know, because I know guys in prison, they don`t like guys like this that hurt children and hurt women unnecessarily like that. So, I don`t think he had a lot of fans.
PINSKY: Hold on. Lauren, brings up something that made Danine shake her head no. Hold on, Danine. Don`t speak yet. We`re going to talk more about this when we come back. You`re going to have to speak to that. And if anyone out there has a question for the "Behavior Bureau," you can tweet us @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and the "Behavior Bureau," Danine, Wendy, Samantha, and Lauren, and of course the -- I want to go right to Danine.
MANETTE: Well, Dr. Drew, this case, Ariel Castro was way too high-profile of an inmate. This was a new conviction. He was still in ad seg, which is administration segregation. So, he wasn`t in the main population yet. Had this been a year down the road and he was in a main population, I would think there was foul play, but I think he actually killed himself.
PINSKY: You`re responding to what Lauren said. Lauren was suspicious that somebody hurt him, and you`re saying even with your suspicious mind, unlikely because of the level of supervision --
MANETTE: Right. I think he killed himself. I really do.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on, Sam.
(CROSSTALK)
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I`m with Lauren. I think that there was foul play. There were far too many discrepancies. And let`s be reminded, this is the same two security guards who skipped rounds and have already falsified their logs. And what happens in prison stays in prison, I`m OK with that.
PINSKY: Wendy.
WALSH: But he wasn`t in the population yet.
LAKE: But Danine, do you think the guards could have just kept on moseying back?
(CROSSTALK)
MANETTE: I don`t think so. I don`t think anybody had access to him, and I think that their job was too important to them --
LAKE: No. I don`t mean anybody else. I meant -- no, what I meant was the guards neglected to check on him. You said maybe they neglected to check on him because he liked to play with his junk too much. I`m thinking, did they neglect to go in there fast enough for other reasons?
MANETTE: Uh, that could be the case.
(CROSSTALK)
MANETTE: -- I thought you meant someone else going in there. Yes. That could be the case.
PINSKY: And Wendy, you`re trying to say something?
WALSH: I am going to say that I think there`s a whole another subculture that goes on within prisons between guards and other prisoners. So, I do not say that he had no exposure to any prisoners. And I also think that this whole thing about autoerotic asphyxiation only came out after the guards were highly criticized for not checking on him. So, now they`re shaming him and saying what had to have been him (ph), right?
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: This is somebody who said in a court of law that he spent two to three hours a day self-gratifying, the art of masturbation. I think he was --
SCHACHER: But his bible was out and pictures of his family.
WALSH: Of kids and his family. No. We don`t touch our junk to those pictures.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Stop right there before we slide down the slippery slope that Mark Eiglarsh was talking about earlier. We are not going to have answers tonight, but there are discrepancies, and the story remains somewhat of a mystery. We`re going to keep our eye on it. Thank you, "Behavior, Bureau." "Last Call" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: It`s time for the "Last Call," and it goes to a tweet from SassyJack (ph). She says, "I`m so grossed out by this old fat married music teacher sending hundreds of mushy quasi sexual texts to a 15-year-old student on DR. DREW ON-CALL." Jenny, what do you think?
HUTT: Yes. Listen, I just think that there`s so much about him that`s vile in the text that we don`t have to bring up his weight. That`s just a cyberobnoxiousness. No need for that. It`s enough. He gives (ph) us enough.
PINSKY: And for me, this whole thing brings up that issue of boundaries. It`s not, hey, whatever you`re into, man. There are boundaries that are healthy boundaries that are unhealthy when you violate them with young people, even if they seem subtle to you, they`re dangerous. Thank you for watching. "After Dark" starts right now.
END
