Return to Transcripts main page
Savage Crime Shocks Small Town
Aired October 24, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a 14-year-old murders his beloved teacher, killed her with a box cutter, stuffed into a recycling bin and dumped in the woods. And then, her accused killer goes to a movie.
What does the behavior bureau make of all this?
Plus, a patient vanishes from her hospital room. Her body is found weeks later in a stairwell. Did a worker find her lying unconscious and just step over her?
We have the latest on this hospital mystery.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, and we are talking about a beloved teacher who is murdered, her 14-year-old student charged with this crime.
Coming up, I plan to speak to a family member of the suspect.
But first, more graphic details about how Colleen Ritzer was killed. Have a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She tried to go to a faculty rest room. Philip Chism followed her in, hit her and then hit her, used a box cutter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chism brought the box cutters with him to school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then took her body and put it into a recycles bin, took her body and dumped it into the woods. When they found the body, it was not in the recycling bin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A source close to the investigation says Chism went to the movies after allegedly killing Ritzer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did go to Wendy`s.
Investigators in Danvers, Massachusetts alleged Chism incriminated himself in interviews with police, that there was evidence on video cameras.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to see what else there is. I want the whole story to come out before people really, you know, cast a lot of judgment on the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My life is so much better, because she was my friend.
PINSKY: Joining us, Mike Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, Anna Yum, defense attorney, former prosecutor Shegun Oduo, social commentator and HLN`s Lynn Berry.
Lynn, what else do we know?
LYNN BERRY, HLN HOST: Wow, I don`t even know where to begin. If all of the details are chilling, we learned from police sources he actually changed his clothes after the alleged murder there in the school, and then you heard in that piece, hopped around town as if he was out for the night, he was reported missing, around 6:30. He was picked up on the street as he was wandering.
But it`s that testimony, it`s that interview with police and the surveillance that led them to believe that he`s the one that did it. It led them to the body that, by the way, wasn`t even covered up, wasn`t buried. It wasn`t like he was trying to conceal this crime.
This was cold. This was calculating. And the scary thing is, is that friends are saying they did not see this coming in the least.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Really quickly, what concerns me is that he was able after brutally murdering his teacher is to go enjoy a meal and movie, as if completely devoid of emotion. What does that say about him?
PINSKY: Well, and that`s what tonight, it`s interesting you said that, Sam, because when we listened to this story last night, I asked the question last night, now we have more information, I`m asking again, what happened here? What stood out tonight to me is again the -- I don`t want to say casualness, the detached quality with which he conducted himself afterwards.
Ana, do you have a comment about that?
ANNA YUM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I did, Dr. Drew. I mean, clearly, isn`t that what you call a sociopath? Maybe you can enlighten us about this, because that`s what I`m bothered with.
PINSKY: Well, yes, and, Sam pointed this out last night, AMC or A&E, what was the program?
SCHACHER: AMC has a series that looks at Norman Bates as a kid. You know, it`s like Dexter Morgan, too. When you look at these people that are in my mind, that I consider psychopath, they are very void of emotion and disconnected from reality.
PINSKY: That`s right.
YUM: Exactly, because he went to Wendy`s, right? Ordered a frosty and fries and then he goes to a Woody Allen movie, by himself, and he calls it a night? I mean, how do you go from a soccer sports star to an alleged box cutter killer, from zero to 60?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU: Can I please jump in here?
ODUOLOWU: What`s bothering me, panel, is all of you are pointing fingers at a 14-year-old, and none of us have all the evidence, because no 14-year-old, nobody just wakes up, one day, snaps, decides, you know, I`m going to premeditate a murder. I`m going to pack a box cutter, I`m going to kill this teacher, put her in the recycling bin, change my clothes, go to Wendy`s, go to a movie and does that spur of the moment.
SCHACHER: But he did.
ODUOLOWU: Before you start condemning the kid, just give me --
BERRY: Police interview of the kid, and tehre`s video surveillance of his exiting - -
ODUOLOWU: Give me more. We`re talking about a 14-year-old.
So before you throw the book away, before we say that there`s no reason for him to do this, let`s find some mitigating factors that might have led to why he did this.
ODUOLOWU: Listen, I do not want to slander the victim, but before we canonize her, let`s make sure she`s a saint. Maybe something innocuous to him, maybe a brushed shoulder, maybe some extra attention, maybe something so innocent led to something so incomprehensible.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. If something innocent led to something horrible, that`s on him.
But, Mark, go ahead.
ODUOLOWU: He`s 14 years old. Shame you on you guys.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Let me say this, he absolutely makes some valid points, except for that "shame on you" comment. I don`t like that. It`s very judgment.
But he is 14, and his mind is very different. However, here are the facts that are uncontroverted, assuming what they`re saying is true.
EIGLARSH: He slaughtered -- I didn`t interrupt you -- he slaughtered in a cold, calculated heinous atrocious and cruel way a teacher. And at no time in the near future would I feel comfortable with him around any of my loved ones or anyone in the public, which means he has to be warehoused for a lengthy period of time.
EIGLARHS: As a defense lawyer, who appreciates -- oh, yes, they call that prison.
ODUOLOWU: A 14-year-old? Hold on a second, doctor. Let me say this one thing. He went to see a Woody Allen movie, right, the same Woody Allen that supposedly raped one of his children and married her later.
EIGLARSH: What the held does that have to do --
ODUOLOWU: And no one sees anything wrong with that?
YUM: Maybe he had a crush on the teacher.
EIGLARSH: That`s so irrelevant.
ODUOLOWU: Why it`s so irrelevant?
EIGLARSH: It`s irrelevant what you just said.
PINSKY: One at a time. Go ahead, Anna.
YUM: I`m not saying the teacher had in sexual advances towards him, OK? I`m not maligning the teacher. But what if it was the other way around? What if he in his mind had a crush on this teacher? Because if you think about it, he`s 14 years old. That`s when teenagers` hormones are raging, right?
Either he felt humiliated or maybe he felt rejected. Or maybe -- just maybe he felt she had reciprocal feelings, because a student overheard her asking him to stay after class so she could help him with math. Maybe he took it the wrong way and something caused him to snap.
PINSKY: Right. And also, he was found to be doodling or drawing pictures all day that day, right, Lynn? And tat was an unusual behavior for him --
BERRY: I`m like about to jump out of my chair right now.
PINSKY: But also straighten this business about why we believe it`s him because there`s video of him dragging the body.
ODUOLOWU: No, no, I didn`t say he didn`t do it. What I am saying is before we condemn him and say he`s a cold-blooded super murderer, psychopath, psychotic, can we please, about of we rush to judgment, find some mitigating factors. Let`s have all the facts.
PINSKY: Lynn, next. Lynn, go ahead. Lynn is jumping out of her skin.
BERRY: What you were starting to see to is that day if class, there were students that have talked to the CNN that said he saw him doodling all day, he wasn`t paying attention, he hadn`t done his homework that day and that he did say after class with Colleen.
PINKSY: Which was unusual.
BERRY: Which was unusual. They were just getting there, she was apparently helping him, but he had never expressed any kind of emotion towards her or -- they even talked about her. This is a kid that just played soccer. This is anywhere in America, this is anywhere kid.
This is not something that there were any kind of sign, and you guys were talking about some signs of psychopaths, and things like that in the past, Norman Bates, all those things. Those factors usually include hurting animals and --
PINSKY: Usually, but Lynn --
BERRY: There`s nothing even in the realm of that. That`s what makes it so disturbing.
PINSKY: It seems so out of blue, but --
SCHACHER: We don`t know the history.
PINSKY: But here part of the issue is, though, that this child was moved around a ton, and no one really knows his history, right, Sam?
EIGLARSH: Drew, I have a question.
SCHACHER: He brutally murdered his teacher.
EIGLARSH: Correct. I have a question for the most vocal defender on the panel tonight.
Let me ask you this. So, what should happen to him? In five years, are you willing them to have him like as a guest in your home? Ten years? Fifteen years? Just a year? What should happen to him?
I feel for him. He is a child, I do feel for him. But he`s a dangerous child.
ODUOLOWU: May I answer your question?
EIGLARSH: Let me just finish.
There are those who murder and those who don`t. This kid did it in a heinous, atrocious and cruel way. What should happen?
ODUOLOWU: May I answer? So I`ll answer the ridiculous question with a bit of sanity.
SCHACHER: Why is it ridiculous?
ODUOLOWU: You say there are those that murder and those that don`t.
PINSKY: One at a time or I`m going to put on hold everybody`s mikes. Segun, go ahead. Finish up.
ODUOLOWU: So, first of all, there are those that murder and those that don`t. So, soldiers killing in war, I mean, let`s not stretch murder way too thin and say there are killers and not.
Five years from now, ten years from now, if he`s guilty, there are no other factors, yes, I will agree with you, but the rush to judgment, without all of us as lawyers, having the facts and not --
ODUOLOWU: I`m not condemning anybody without knowing why.
YUM: We are not are rushing to judgment, Segun. You are saying that we`re rushing to judgment. We are talking about the facts that as they have revealed. We don`t know all the facts yet. Rushing to judgment would mean he`s automatically guilty.
What I`m saying is the facts as we know them exemplify egregious conduct here. And you can`t argue with that.
ODUOLOWU: Let me ask you this --
YUM: Let me finish. I`m not saying --
ODUOLOWU: What if it comes out that she molested him.
PINSKY: Segun --
YUM: I`m not saying he`s automatically guilty. We obviously have to look at the --
PINSKY: I`m going to warn you, Segun, that when you say this, you`re going to get attacks on Twitter, because this girl was loved --
ODUOLOWU: I`m fine with that. If it comes out that this woman that they think is a saint was really one of the most egregious sinners and she molested this kid and she treated him badly --
ODUOLOWU: Hold on, I said, if it comes out, would you still be rushing to punish him like you are?
PINSKY: I`m going to stop. Segun, hold on. I know the answer would be that is a polemic -- there`s no evidence. CNN can`t report on any of that, because there`s not evidence. But you your point is taken, I think. We will attempt to gather more data.
ODUOLOWU: Thank you.
SCHACHER: Oh my gosh.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel.
Next up, the alleged killer`s uncle is here.
Later, are Miley and Rihanna out of control? We`ll share the latest almost naked photos. Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are serious competency issues and mitigation issues that involve someone`s 14-year-old`s state of mind and their mental health. In this case, the defendant wishes to have services to evaluate him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Teenagers go through that, he`s 14, he`s growing up still. That`s the only thing that I can imagine, like a storybook -- a perfect family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People really liked him. He didn`t seem like the kind of person that would end up doing this to someone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
And we`re discussing a 14-year-old accused of murdering his young teacher.
Let me show you a tweet before I bring in my panel. It is from Leslie Anne @justforme1.
"God forbid we should take anything at face value -- search long and hard and never give up for legit reasons for murder. There must be one." That is in response to Segun`s polemic in the previous block.
SCHACHER: Oh my God.
PINSKY: Thinking of legit murder is sort of a weird concept itself.
SCHACHER: Right. I hate the fact, though, Dr. Drew, he tried to equate it to soldiers killing in war. They`re killing in war and sacrificing our lives for our freedom, that really made my blood boil.
PINSKY: But he did have a reasonable point -- let`s get all the facts. The facts as they seem now, Anna Yum said, as they seem now, it looks pretty bad.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal", Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox"; and Lynn Berry is still with us. She`s making her debut on the behavior bureau.
I want to play you guy some more archive video from Colleen Ritzer was at the high school. You`ll hear her voice just briefly. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLEEN RITZER, TEACHER: Hi, I`m Colleen Ritzer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s her introducing herself. Lynn, what are we saying in this video?
BERRY: We`re seeing a young girl who has been painted by every friend and family member and student as a complete and total saint. She`s a young girl who live with her parents, because she was going to grad school, that often took to Twitter to send inspirational messages to her students. One of them actually said, quote, "No matter what happens in life, be good people. Being good to people is a wonderful legacy to leave behind."
I don`t think know that you would find anyone at that school that would say that`s the legacy she`ll leave behind.
PINSKY: Now, I`ll bring the behavior bureau in her. Now, you the heard the conversation we had in that last block. People -- it`s interesting that people seem to be coming up with psychological explanations for this. I don`t think there`s going to be a psychological explanation. It`s going to be either some major mental health breakdown, and I find it fascinating that the attorney even in her opening is saying, this kid needs a mental health evaluation.
PINSKY: Well, duh, or as somebody was saying in the last block, Sam I guess it was you, legitimately, this thing could be the beginning of psychopathy, which is more of a biological brain problem.
Wendy, your thoughts?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think certainly, this could be the beginning of some major organic mental disorder, Dr. Drew, but, you know, Segun got me thinking when I was watching that last segment.
And I`m thinking to myself, let`s imagine this is an introverted kind of repressed kid -- I`m totally making this up, I have no evidence, it`s purely hypothetical. But imagine he was -- suffered from severe child sexual abuse, maybe as an infant and toddler.
Now, he`s with this young 20-something cute teacher who is helping him with his math and he gets a spontaneous erection. Well, that could bring a rage.
PINSKY: And if he could misinterpret all sorts of maneuvers on her part that might have been innocent, but we are speculating wildly, right?
WALSH: I`m just saying, we don`t have evidence.
PINSKY: We`re trying, Judy, to understand this, so all we got is speculation based on our clinical experience, and we have seen stuff like this, but it adds up in a certain way or we can`t make sense of it.
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right, Dr. Drew. Here`s another speculation. They`re saying that he`s well-liked kid. He comes from a storybook family. Well, those kinds of families oftentimes have very tight and strict rules. So, if he is a child that grew up in that environment, that had so many boundaries put on him, that he`s trying to break out, this may be the first public move that we`re seeing, but I wonder if it`s the beginning of psychopathy. Maybe there was stuff that was boiling there for years and years.
And this is just the first we`re hearing about it in public. Maybe his parents are controlling him so much.
PINSKY: Right. That`s one good speculation.
But I`ll bring Danine in here to sort of blow this whole thing.
So, go ahead, Danine. What are your thoughts?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Look, Dr. Drew. I`m speculating as well.
But this kid, he was 6`2", but he was only 148 pounds, which means he was pretty skinny. Therefore, if he got into it with an adult woman, there would have been a struggle for her life. I look add him with he was at his arraignment. I did not see any defensive wounds, on his face, on is neck, on his arms, or anything.
The kid had supposedly a box cutter. Unless he was cutting boxes at the school, why would he bring box cutter to the school? If you`re going to kill someone with the box cutter, you`re going to get them from the back and you`re going to slit their throat. And that`s going to something that would have to happen pretty quickly, because like I said, there were no defensive wounds on that kid. I looked for them last night.
MANETTE: So, it would not surprise me if his family moved around a lot and knew they had a budding serial killers in their midst.
PINSKY: So you think -- Danine, you`re freaking me out on many fronts there, Danine.
PINSKY: That you think he is as potentially --
SCHACHER: I agree with Danine.
MANETTE: I think he was a budding serial killer. I really do and he has a disposition --
PINSKY: So you`re speculating that all the moves are because the kid kept getting in trouble, and they got out of town.
MANETTE: Yes, and I`ll bet there`s a lot of hurt animals along the way, a lot of things they were probably trying to keep under wraps. We haven`t heard from them, have we? I think the secret is out.
BERRY: Danine, can I just add to that, because you were talking about how he may have done. There is recording by CNN that there was apparently a faculty bathroom and the door was locked? So she went to the student bathroom, and that he had punched her and beat her, and then had killed her with the box cutter.
So, this seems premeditated in that sense, and the rage associated with that. I would then turn to you guys and have that analysis be made, because I`m not a psychologist. But that indicates serious, serious rage.
PINSKY: Anybody else have a cold, cold feeling as we have this conversation?
SCHACHER: And, Dr. Drew, I have a question for the panel. We know his behavior, characteristics were different. Leading up the day of where he became a little bit more removed. He was doodling. What does that suggest to our psychologist?
PINSKY: Go ahead, Danine.
MANETTE: People who are going to commit suicide are very calm the entire day as well, because they have a solution.
PINSKY: They made a decision.
MANETTE: This may be the same calming effect that came over him. Keep in mind, he left home with a box cutter.
HO: Well, you know, we also hear that after this happened, he went and had some food and then went to see the movie.
PINSKY: That`s the chilling part.
HO: This is very chilling, but at the same time there is something to be said about the fact that he`s trying to calm the part of his brain that may actually be activated --
PINSKY: Got it.
WALSH: Let`s talk about the drawing the that`s very right-brained, spatial reasoning, even athletic use, activating the body. It`s also part of the emotional brain. He`s not in necessarily his intellectual processing center, which is the place that stops you and put you on the brake when you need to.
PINSKY: Thank you guys.
Next up, a missing hospital patient found dead in a stairwell. At least one worker evidently stepped over her body. And there was no one sent back to investigate? We have to figure that one out.
I`m hearing maybe he reported it? But, still, a body left in the stairwell.
Later, we`ll also check out this viral video. A man parent confuses the Utah state capitol with a drive-thru restaurant, right up the stairs and right on the Supreme Court, the special delivery.
More after this.
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
And, Sam, we`re still getting tweets about what Segun was saying in the A-block 1. This is Heather I am, "Listen, Dr. Drew, this guy is right," meaning Segun, "I mean, the kid is 14, we don`t know the whole story, period." Hopefully we will soon enough. We`ll keep our eye on that one and keep reporting it.
Changing now to a new story, a woman checks into a San Francisco hospital. A couple of days later, she banishes, more than two weeks go by before she`s found dead in the hospital stairwell.
PINSKY: And there`s now a new twist in this mystery. But take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think when anyone is found in the stairwell of a hospital, it`s disturbing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifty-seven-year-old Lynn Spalding checked herself into San Francisco General on September 19th for a bladder infection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifty-seven-year-old Lynn Spalding went missing on September 21st.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now investigators are trying to figure out how this mother of two could vanish in the midst of treatment.
PINSKY: Her body was allegedly discovered in an exterior stairwell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know now that the body is that of fifty-seven- year-old Lynn Spalding.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This should not have happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 57-year-old apparently had been dead or dying in the hospital for more than two weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The San Francisco Hospital does not look good at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did it take so long for someone at the hospital to find her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing like this has ever happened before. There`s no precedent.
SCHACHER: How are they not able to find her? If a patient goes missing, why aren`t they looking everywhere?
EIGLARSH: Let`s look everywhere. Apparently he didn`t look everywhere.
PINSKY: Back with us, Mark Eiglarsh with those very salient points, Segun Odouwolu, Lynn Berry, and Danine Manette, and joining this panel by phone guys is David Perry, he is a spokesperson for the Spalding family.
And, David, we are hearing reports -- I hope you can clarify this for us. I`m hearing maybe a maintenance employees may have seen Lynn lying in the stairwell four days before her body was officially discovered. Is that accurate? And what more can you tell us?
DAVID PERRY, SPALDING FAMILY SPOKESMAN (via telephone): Yes, that`s accurate, and thanks for having us on the show. Everybody we learned about this case makes it more horrible, more painful for the family, and frankly, brings up more disturbing questions that need to be answered by San Francisco General. But more to the point, the San Francisco Sheriff`s Department, who is in charge of a search, which evidently if it did take place was the worst search in human history.
PINSKY: What about this employee that I heard -- like a maintenance employee, who then referred it to a nurse, who referred it to security, which is the sheriff`s department, right, and they just blew it off? Is that what happened?
PERRY: We don`t know. I certainly hope they didn`t blow it off. Whether they blew it off or went to the wrong stairwell, they didn`t find Lynn.
What is disturbing at first is one who goes to the hospital for care, gets away from the care, and gets on the stairwell, then isn`t found for 17 days. Now, compounding that is this maintenance worker saw a body, reported it to the hospital, and then still it look another four days to confirm that body was indeed there and the family to know.
Every bit of information the family has gotten about this case we have gotten from people like you, the press. Until this morning, San Francisco General Hospital has been pretty tight-lipped.
PINSKY: Well, I understand how hospitals are when they have a big liability. That`s how they do it. They`re instructed to do it.
But, David, let me ask you something, my staff was kind of worried about this. Do we know, had she changed back into her street clothes? Was sort of breaking out in the hospital? Or was she lying in the stairwell in a hospital gown, so the maintenance employee would have known it was a patient.
PERRY: We have not gotten that answer yet. Today, Lynn`s body was finally cremated. We have not gotten back the clothes she was in, or any confirmation of what she was wearing. Maybe by this time tomorrow, I`ll have more information. We don`t know.
PINSKY: I`m going to give my panel a chance to asking questions.
Segun, you have a question or point.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, Mr. Perry, first of all, police offer condolences from me to the family, for what it may be worth.
But I would say this to the panel, is this not more heinous and more disturbing and more chilling, that a person was found lying on the floor, it was reported, and still nothing was done? Good people did nothing, or people that we would think are in their right mind, or people -- did nothing for weeks at a time in a place where you go to be treated for illness?
And, Dr. Drew, correct me if I`m wrong, but don`t doctors first do no harm? And in a place surrounded by doctors, surrounded by a staff that goes around the clock, how can a body go missing for this amount of time? This is more chilling to me.
BERRY: And one thing that we should clarify. One thing that we should clarify. It wasn`t weeks at a time, apparently, they found this body. They reported it to a nurse. The nurse then notified the sheriff`s department. That`s where the ball was dropped, because at the time, there was a missing persons report there at that hospital.
BERRY: Sirens exploding from the mountain tops.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: David, go ahead and then Mark.
VOICE OF DAVID PERRY, SPALDING FAMILY SPOKESMAN: Yes. I`m sorry to interrupt, but let me just be really clear about something. She went missing from her room at 10:30 a.m. on Saturday September 21st. The sheriff`s department said a search had been done of the hospital. The sheriff`s department is responsible for security in the hospital.
The police department had a missing persons report assigned for them, and they, for two weeks, look outside the hospital. So for two weeks, the police department was looking outside along with her family and friends, while for 17 days, Lynn`s body was still in the hospital. The sheriff`s department is who needs to be put on the spot here.
PINSKY: Danine, you`ve actually been to this hospital, my understanding is. And have you been near that stairwell? Have you ever stepped outside and had the door lock on you? Do you know what this was all about?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I don`t know exactly what stairwell that was. I know that this is a very old hospital. I know that it reminds me of the hospital in the movie "Halloween," because it`s got so many dark hallways and things that people don`t go down. But I agree that the sheriff`s department completely dropped the ball, because there are a lot of homeless people that hang out here.
And the custodian or the maintenance worker person may have just felt that it was a homeless person and went it and said, hey, you got a homeless person sleeping out there, and then came back a few days later, hey, the homeless person is still sleeping out there.
MANETTE: But when the nurse told the sheriff`s department they should have gone and removed the homeless person from that area and that never happened.
PINSKY: Hang on, Lynn. I want to give Mark a chance. Mark.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Drew, this could be one of largest hospitals in the world. It`s not the Afghanistan desert.
EIGLARSH: You check everywhere, including the stairwell. I expect this type of treatment from my drycleaner. Occasionally, they lose my pants and they look everywhere and then they find my pants. You don`t expect it from a hospital. There`s no excuse for it.
BERRY: Just wanted to clarify that about the door. Dr. Drew, apparently, this is an emergency exit that actually did have a siren when you open it, but when you close it, the sound of the alarm goes off and it locks behind you. They have since changed that, that now you have to use a key to turn off that alarm. So, you would then assume the hospital knew there was something wrong there.
And I think Danine makes a great point that they may have thought that it was just someone that was homeless, because the only thing that was returned to, my understanding, to Lynn Spalding, was her cell phone as far as her belongings there in the hospital.
PINSKY: So far.
PERRY: That is correct.
BERRY: So, you would assume she was probably wearing her clothes.
PINSKY: David, thank you so much for joining again. I will give you the last word here. And then, again, just to reiterate what -- express, and we all feel our deepest sorrow and --
PERRY: Thank you. Just what I`d like to say in closing is the issue is no longer how Lynn Spalding got on the stairwell, but how a person, whether she`s homeless or homed, can go 17 days in an a major American hospital with not being found.
ODUOLOWU: Well said, sir. Well said.
PINSKY: You know, I feel -- people always get on me for having empathy for people that are culpable and things are not great. I feel bad for the hospital. These hospitals are huge. Their bureaucracies are hard to run. It`s only going to get worse, guys, as these things get --
MANETTE: It`s the sheriff`s department fault.
PINSKY: That`s -- Danine, I prefer to put it over there.
Wait, they won`t -- but you`ll condemn a 14-year-old kid had a psychopath, but we won`t call the police incompetent --
PINSKY: I`m trying to understand the kid. I can`t understand why that --
-- good people doing nothing and not letting a body not be found for 17 days.
PINSKY: I got you. Switching gears. Take a look at this, a man drives his truck into the state capitol. There it goes. We got a special delivery for the Supreme Court justice in the state of Utah.
And later, Miley and Rihanna are exposed. We have their latest poses, and I want to hear from my panel about what they think these about these young ladies. Be right back.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN after Dark," an amazingly dramatic day in the courtroom. Dr. MacNeill`s daughters taking the stand against him.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right. And so, our bold question tonight, can the doctor`s daughters prove murder? We heard from Alexis outside the presence of the jury and Rachel in front of the jury. Our jury is ready to decide how the daughters may play into all of this.
POLITAN: And we`ll take them to our recreated death scene. All coming up at the top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
PINSKY: Welcome back. Samantha Schacher is my co-host. And Sam, I want to share a quick tweet with you. It is from our @WiskiMD23 (ph). Just a quick take note to Segun, "Go decaf, Segun." Just go --
PINSKY: That was --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I gave him some of my green tea earlier. It`s all my fault.
PINSKY: It is all your fault. The hold up -- advertising --
PINSKY: -- green tea.
SCHACHER: All day long.
All right. Now, I want you all to look, maybe this is what`s wrong with this guy driving the truck? Well, look at this bizarre video. He drives right up the steps of the state capitol in Utah. That is the state capitol building. He then walks into the building. You see his truck on the right there. He parks alongside of the building, makes his way to the Supreme Court chamber, tries to kick in the doors.
There he is walking at the Supreme Court, to Supreme Court entrance. He`s confronted by the bailiffs or police there and confronted. He starts screaming "this is my house, too." He took a swing of the state trooper and you see that`s where he ended up after they tased him. And then, because of the loose clothing, though, the tase didn`t work and actually take him down.
Let`s bring in the "Behavior Bureau," Danine Manette, Judy Ho, Wendy Walsh, and making his debut with us today, comedian, Frank Decard. Frank, welcome to the show. I wonder if you have a reaction to all that video.
FRANK DECARD, COMEDIAN: I certainly do. Watching that, and I think no one likes a good parking space more than I do.
DECARD: But -- you don`t see anyone doing this usually until around the Christmas season, you know, at the mall. I was kind of shocked that he managed to get up there, because honestly, my car has trouble with the parking garage if it`s more than one level, but to get three levels up, and actually get that close, and then go into the building is kind of amazing to me, because no one stops him.
DECARD: I can`t get into my own office building that I`ve worked in for ten years as easily as this man drives up and walks in.
SCHACHER: That`s my concern. My concern is that security or the state troopers, I mean, the lack of efficiency. I`ve seen more efficient security at a local mall, Dr. Drew, when somebody shoplifts.
PINSKY: Well, it`s interesting. If you`ve been around Washington D.C. at all, anyone, you know that there`s barriers everywhere, cement blocks. I bet we`re going to start to see that now unfortunately around the Utah State Capitol. Now, this man was taken to the hospital for a mental evaluation.
Judy, he was there to promote marijuana legalization, I believe. That`s what the authorities say, that was his sort of agenda, but I think there`s a bit more going on.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right. I mean, I think that`s one of the reasons why he was there, but the fact that he would drive up all the way to the state capitol. I mean, OK, he said that it was his house, too, so maybe that`s what you do when it`s your own house.
DECARD: No, you don`t.
HO: But there`s definitely a lot more going on, right? We`re talking about property destruction. We`re talking about, you know, breaking and entering. We`re talking about him being aggressive and trying to kick down the door. There are so many more layers than just trying to legalize marijuana.
PINSKY: You know what, I`m just thinking, Wendy, he doesn`t do much for his case, because I`d rather run into a guy in an agitated state on pot than on alcohol, but he seems pretty agitated. He`s a marijuana advocate. I think he`s done his advocacy a disservice.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, have you ever thought, Dr. Drew, that maybe he wasn`t promoting marijuana, but it was actually an ambushed ad and he was promoting Ford trucks?
PINSKY: It had occurred to me.
WALSH: Because we see these videos that show up on YouTube all the time. Remember the one last week for Carrie (ph) where the guy walk in to the coffee shop and starts flying around and scaring everybody. And I think, how do they do that in public --
PINSKY: But they don`t get tased typically, I imagine. This guy did get taken down.
SCHACHER: And the governor works there. Their state governor works there.
PINSKY: So Danine, you`re in these systems. Help us. What are we struggling with here?
MANETTE: I think that it`s less about what he did and more about where he did it. And I think you pointed to something a couple weeks ago about when the government is going through all kinds of changes and people feel as though they don`t have any security and there`s nobody really running the show, that the most vulnerable in the population which are the mentally ill act out just like in a family situation.
MANETTE: And I think that this is an example of that. He didn`t go to a library. He didn`t go to some other place. He went to the capitol building, and that`s where he decided to act out. And with all this going on with health care and gun control and all the foolishness going on in the government right now, the weakest among us or the most vulnerable act out.
PINSKY: Frank, last work, Frank.
DECARD: I was going to say, they said he wanted to make a point, but when you do a stunt like this, the only point you make is don`t listen to me.
DECARD: They can`t take him seriously. And maybe though he is someone that we should take seriously in terms of wanting to legalize marijuana because maybe if he were stoned, he wouldn`t be so angry.
PINSKY: Judy says no, but I think -- I`d rather be stoned than drunk. That`s all I`m saying. That`s all I`m saying.
Next up -- thank you, panel -- Miley Cyrus at it again, and Rihanna leaves -- well, she leaves some photos with little left to the imagination. We`re back with that after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): First she was twerking, then she was tweeting --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And most recently her war of roads with Irish songwriter, Sinead O`Connor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miley Cyrus is playing us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the latest public appearance from Cyrus as the 20-year-old star continues to grab headlines wherever she goes.
PINSKY: We don`t like to see Miley Cyrus from having gone from Hannah Montana to this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who could ever have imagined that wouldn`t even be saying half naked and Miley Cyrus in the same sentence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t want my daughter acting like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her feeling of responsibility needs to be to the young girls and young women out there who are now getting the impression that the only way you can get any attention or respect in the industry is to take off your clothes and gyrate up against a fully clothed man on stage.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. We`ve got Danine Manette, Wendy Walsh, Frank Decard. I`ll read you guys a tweet. This is Sherry West (ph). "Did you really use the word ladies in reference to Rihanna and Miley?" I think that`s goes to your point, Danine, does it not?
MANETTE: You know, I spent two weeks bashing Miley Cyrus, and what did it do? It just made her -- turn it up a notch and twerk more, and what that tells me is that she could care less about what a middle age woman feels about her. She probably thinks I`m jealous, because she`s young and I`m old.
So, what I have decided is that, you know what, my daughter`s role model is me as it should be. And so, what I need to do is make sure that I present myself the way I want my daughter to be and let Miley live her life the way she`s going to live it and we`ll just see how this turns out.
PINSKY: So, just to get this straight, Danine, you`re not jealous?
PINSKY: Wendy, not jealous?
PINSKY: Frank, not jealous?
DECARD: No, I`m not jealous at all.
PINSKY: OK. Good. I`m just checking.
Well, this new tweet is what has the people talking once again about Miley. She tweeted a photo which is sort of straddling a guy. She got the tongue out thing again, dollar bills flinging around. Here`s what she said, "So it`s true, if you turn the lights off and look into a mirror and say turndown four what three times fast gets -- Sam, you speak fluent Miley, don`t you? Can you translate this --
SCHACHER: OK. I don`t speak fluent Miley, but I do know what this means. OK. Dr. Drew, oh boy. OK. So, this fling. So, first of all, it`s in response to say turned up, and turned up means let`s get wild. Let`s get crazy. And of course, that definition is going to be different from person to person.
For me, turned up maybe dancing in my apartment with my animals. For somebody else, it might be get blackout drunk. But what she`s saying is, when you say turndown for what, when people say turndown, they`re saying, let`s calm down, let`s not have fun. So, she`s saying turndown for what, let`s get (INAUDIBLE). And it`s also a popular rap song right now, a Li`l John song called "Turndown For What."
PINSKY: So, Wendy, I think -- I would -- I hate to ever cross Danine, but Miley is trying to be a musician. She`s trying to get a career. She`s not thinking through what the impact or behavior. Is she trying to sell records?
WALSH: No, she doesn`t care.
PINSKY: What do you say?
WALSH: The thing I keep saying over and over is Miley, Miley, Miley, you cannot fire your fans. My daughters were fans of you for a long time. And now, I have a 10-year-old watching you twerk and swing around naked on a wrecking ball. I don`t appreciate that. And, I think -- I know you`re trying to change your business model and move to a new customer base, but you can`t just fire the old customers. They`re there and you have a responsibility to them.
PINSKY: All right. Frank, I don`t know. I`m inclined to defend Miley. I like the fact that we have a free country where people can do whatever. Let`s just not buy the records if you don`t like her. What do you say?
DECARD: I look at her -- well, when I see her with that blond hairdo, I think the roadrunner called and wants it back.
DECARD: Mostly, that`s what I think when I look at her. I don`t understand, though. It used to be that you became a singer so you didn`t have to be a hooker.
DECARD: And now, it just seems sort of like a steppingstone to that.
PINSKY: Very good. Hold it right there. Back with more on Miley, and we`re going to throw Rihanna in the mix, after this.
PINSKY: Back with co-host, Samantha Schacher. Danine, Wendy and Frank join us. And, I want to go to a tweet here that was on the heels on what Wendy said "@DrDrew, I so agree #miley you can`t fire your fans. I won`t let my daughter watch her videos and we loved her before"
Which goes to a question I have for Sam, let me show you a picture of Rihanna here. This is something she posted on Instagram. Do we give Rihanna a pass because she wasn`t Hannah Montana first? Do we get upset with Miley because that`s what our kids thought of her?
SCHACHER: That`s exactly what is happening, Dr. Drew. I mean, even better example is Keisha. Has anybody look at Keisha`s Instagram? Listen, I love Keisha, but she has a lot of young fans and she has a lot of booty- baring photos, way worse, way more provocative than Rihanna`s on her Instagram, but no one is up in arms, because people just expect it.
It`s Rihanna, it`s Keisha, but if it`s a Selena Gomez or Miley Cyrus, everybody gets outraged because we know them as Disney stars. That`s a lot to do with it.
WALSH: Sam, i want my money back. You know, one time I was at the Staples Center, I took six little girls to a Miley Cyrus concert. I feel like I ripped off now because I got them sucked in and addicted to her and I polluted their brains.
PINSKY: But, I don`t know if that`s true. Both Danine and Wendy, I would say if you guys have done your job, which I`m sure you have, who cares? It`s just the ambient culture. It`s not going to pollute her -- Danine.
WALSH: I hope not.
MANETTE: But I do get the point where Wendy is saying is that this is the money. This is the group of people that pushed you to where you are today. This is the group of people that made you who you are, and for you to just kind of slap them into face and turn into this freak monster --
WALSH: I`m not a freak monster. I`m not a freak monster.
PINSKY: Hang on --
DECARD: I wouldn`t say she`s a freak monster. I think I would say sexual contortionist.
DECARD: I look at it and I think this is what makes someone to bring up somebody -- someone like Adele so refreshing because she walks out there and sings. And you know, you don`t see, you know, plus-size twerk videos of her.
SCHACHER: And she`s young. She`s like 23, 24 years old. People don`t realize that she`s almost the same age as Miley.
PINSKY: I`m just thinking you guys are the role models for the -- you are actually role models here, professionals, you know what I`m saying? We need to encourage kids girls to go to college, not become twerkers.
WALSH: And I will say, we do twerk at home in my kitchen, my girls and I.
SCHACHER: Yes Wendy.
PINSKY: Too much information, although the video will be posted on our website. "Last Call" is next.
WALSH: Oh, no!
PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call," and the "Last Call" goes to the Twitter-verse. Sam and Danine will react to this tweet. It`s on the heels of something frank just said. This is Shannon Morrison (ph), straight from the @DrDrew show, quote, "Used to be you became a singer so you don`t have to become a hooker" Oh man, laughed out loud on that #true stories." Sam.
SCHACHER: I think that`s mean. I mean, first of all, at the end of the day, Miley Cyrus is known. A general consensus that she`s a really good person and that she`s nice and that she`s hardworking. So, that should trump her twerking or what she wears.
PINSKY: Danine, I know you might go a little harsher on old Miley.
MANETTE: Yes. I think if you have talent, you shouldn`t have to get naked, unless getting naked is your talent. So, I think maybe she should step up her talent a little and keep the clothes on a little bit more.
PINSKY: I got to say --
SCHACHER: Let her be her.
PINSKY: Right. (INAUDIBLE) it`s easy for us to say we`re not having to compete in that crazy business and I`m thankfully so. And for the rest of you ladies, go to college. That`s the real message out there.
MANETTE: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you all. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Danine. Thank you all for watching. We`ll see you next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.