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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Warning Obamacare is Not Ready for Launch; Insurance Execs versus Obamacare; Did Obama Mislead on Health Care Law?; Interview with Glenn Greenwald; Greenwald On NSA Leaks: "We Don't Tell Terrorists Anything They Didn't Already Know"; Body Parts Found in L.A. Sewage Plants; Macneill's Daughter Describes Finding Mother in Tub; Macy's Accused of Racially Profiling a Man Who Was Detained By Police After Buying Expensive Watch
Aired October 29, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
Tonight, reporting on Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, problems you'll only see here, including allegations the administration is trying to silence doubts about the rollout.
Also, repercussions from NSA leaker Edward Snowden's latest bombshell, that U.S. intelligence listened in on friendly global leaders. American's top spy says there is nothing new about snooping on friends. I'll talk to journalist Glenn Greenwald, what he says to that.
And later, catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world, catch this wave, you may land in the record books. I'm going to talk to a surfer on what it is like to hang ten on what maybe a 100-foot ocean wave. And you'll only see it here, a remarkable accomplishment.
We begin, though, tonight with big new developments in the Obamacare story, including a major piece of breaking news and a "360" exclusive. Now, this is different from the political warfare you see night after night all over the partisan news channels, because health care reform is so important, we're doing all we can to turn down the noise and just trying to turn up the facts.
So item one tonight, a document that clearly shows when the White House got the warning that the healthcare.gov Web site was a disaster in the making.
Joe Johns got a hold of it. Listen.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN has learned that the Obama administration was warned in September that the Obamacare Web site wasn't ready to go live.
The main contractor, CGI, issued this confidential report to the agency overseeing the healthcare.gov rollout. It warned of a number of open risks and issues for the Web site. The report gave the highest priority to things in plain language like, "We don't have access to monitoring tools, not enough time in schedule to conduct adequate performance testing, and hub services are intermittently unavailable." Short for, the site is not working sometimes.
CGI saying back in September they were putting a team in place to alert whenever the hub goes down. Up on Capitol Hill Tuesday the head of CMS, the agency that received that report, kicked off testimony by saying she's sorry.
MARILYN TAVENNER, CMS ADMINISTRATOR, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We know that consumers are eager to purchase this coverage and to the millions of Americans who attempted to use healthcare.gov to shop and enroll in health care coverage, I want to apologize to you that the Web site has not worked as well as it should.
JOHNS: Marilyn Tavenner was peppered with questions about when she'll have enrollment numbers for Obamacare. She stuck to a script.
TAVENNER: We will have those numbers available in mid-November -- in mid-November -- in mid-November -- in mid-November.
JOHNS: And she tried to lower expectations. She doesn't expect a massive influx of enrollees at first. In line with what happened when the state of Massachusetts rolled out its health care plan years ago.
TAVENNER: I would imagine that enrollment does occur until March 31st of 2014. I'll also remind you that the Massachusetts experience was very slow initially and that it started to ramp up over time. We expect the same type of projections.
JOHNS: But the Web site problems were almost like window dressing in the hearing room where open warfare over health care has been waged for decades.
A Democratic congressman leaped out of his chair claiming his party worked years ago to try to improve the Republican prescription drug plan but when it came to Obamacare, the GOP didn't exactly return the favor.
REP. BILL PASCRELL (D), NEW JERSEY: How many of you stood up to do that? None. Zero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a false choice to say it's Obamacare or nothing.
PASCRELL: Are you really serious? You had a legitimate alternative? We've gone through 44 votes.
COOPER: Joe Johns joins me now live from Washington.
So, Joe, has the administration responded to these documents?
JOHNS: Anderson, they put out a statement. It was short suggesting the report was just a snapshot. This was a document at a point in time it said that identified issues and we work to address those issues and all issues identified. We don't know how far up the chain this report may have reached and who actually might have seen it -- Anderson.
COOPER: Also that statement doesn't really mean anything, saying, we worked to address those issues --
COOPER: -- doesn't mean we actually addressed those issues and saying those issues were identified, yes, they were identified doesn't mean they were actually dealt with or solved. So it's sort of non- statement statement.
JOHNS: Absolutely. And the administration has pointed out this company didn't raise any alarm bells when they testified on the hill in September. CGI actually said they were confident they would deliver and that report came out around the 6th of September so they still had a few weeks to try to do something.
COOPER: Wow. Joe, appreciate the reporting. Thanks to him.
More breaking news, evidence that the Obama administration is leaning on insurance companies to keep a lid on problems with the health care law rollout.
Now Drew Griffin on CNN's investigations did the reporting.
So, Drew, what's going on here? What have you learned?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, what's going on is behind the scenes attempt by the White House to at least keep insurers from publicly criticizing what is happening under this Affordable Care Act rollout. Basically if you speak out, if you are quoted, you're going to get a call from the White House, pressure to be quiet.
Several sources tell me and my colleague Chris Frates that insurance executives are being told to keep quiet. Bob Laszewski who heads the Health Policy and Strategy Associates, a consulting firm for big insurance and an outspoken critic of Obamacare, says he is getting calls from these executives who want him to speak out, Anderson, for them about the problems because they feel defenseless against the White House P.R. team.
Laszewski told me today, "The White House is exerting massive pressure on the industry including the trade associations to keep quiet." And sources telling us they feared White House retribution.
COOPER: So, I mean, what specifically are -- do they say that they're being told to keep quiet about?
GRIFFIN: About the fact that clarifications were made to the Affordable Care Act after the law was passed and those clarifications are forcing the insurance industry to drop insurance plans that do not meet Obamacare requirements. There's a lot of coverage now required in these plans, that was not part of many people's private health care plans. Those are the people, Anderson, who are being dropped and despite all the -- rhetoric, I should say, from the president you simply cannot keep your current health care plan if it does not meet these requirements.
Laszewski says the insurance industry is embarrassed about cancelling the plans but in an interview last week he told me the administration was warned about this very scenario and they ignored the advice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT LASZEWSKI, PRESIDENT, HEALTH POLICY AND STRATEGY ASSOCIATION, LLC: When the regulations are being put together, people in the insurance industry said you're being overly regulatory, you're requiring too many things, you're making this too complicated. You're not letting people keep their plans who have them now and the Obama administration decided to do it the way the Obama administration was going to do it.
One of the things I think that's clear here is the Obama administration has no trust in anything the health insurance industry tells them about -- how to run a health plan and I think the administrative mess you're seeing right now is indicative of what happens when somebody tries to run somebody else's business who thinks they're smarter than you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, Drew, why would -- why would the insurance industry not be willing to challenge the White House publicly?
GRIFFIN: Well, executives are willing to listen to the White House because right now it is the federal government that's the biggest customer for these insurance companies. Government backed plans is accounted for about 48 percent of health care policies last year, Anderson, a number that's expected to grow this year and years to come.
So basically the insurance companies are in a position to just be quiet for fear of offending basically their biggest source of income.
COOPER: So have you heard from the White House about this? I mean, what's their side of the story?
GRIFFIN: Yes. Pushing back. Jay Carney just sent this note on allegations of White House pressure being placed on insurance executives. He writes, "That accusation is preposterous and inaccurate plus it ignores the fact that every day insurance companies are out talking about the law, in large part because they are trying to reach millions of new customers who will now have new affordable insurance options available from providers through the new marketplace."
That from White House spokesman Jay Carney just a few moments ago. He also reiterated that he thinks Bob Laszewski has been against Obamacare from the start and is a longtime opponent, I should say, of any kind of reform in health care.
COOPER: I mean, you acknowledge he is a -- he has been critical of Obamacare for a long time. So viewers should keep that in mind as well as the White House saying they totally don't buy this?
GRIFFIN: Absolutely right, but again, our sources, sources of mine, Chris Krates' sources are telling this is not coming just from Bob --
COOPER: Not -- OK. So there's multiple sourcing. That's all right. Cool. Drew, appreciate it. Thanks for the clarification.
More on now on that promise that President Obama made repeatedly when he was selling the Affordable Care Act. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your healthcare plan. And you can keep it. You can keep it. Keep your plan. You'll be able to keep your healthcare plan. If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. You can keep your doctor. You can keep your doctor, too.
You will be able to keep your doctor. If you like your doctor, you'll be able to keep your doctor. You'll be able to keep your doctor. But if you've got health insurance, you like your doctor, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: All right. It's a very simple declarative statement that was said over and over again, but now, in fact, for about 15 million Americans who have individual health insurance that's not true. Right now individual policy holders are getting letters from their insurance companies, in some cases cancelling coverage, offering new Obamacare compliant policies that cover more but may also cost more.
Even though many will get federal money so they won't be paying more than before, it's not quite the same as saying that nothing will change. Back when President Obama was making that promise, he knew it would seem.
Jim Acosta at the White House. Jim, how do we know that he knew that and what's the reaction to what he'd learned?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what White House officials are saying, Anderson, is what the president was really talking about was this vast majority of Americans who already received their health care through their employer, through Medicare, through Medicaid, through the V.A. They do concede that there are some Americans, about 15 million, as you mentioned, about 5 percent of the insurance market who do get their coverage on the individual market, and that those people are being affected.
They don't deny that, but they do say that the president was not misleading people when he made that claim. He was just talking about the vast majority of Americans when he making that claim repeatedly.
Here's how Jay Carney explained it to me at a news conference earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSTA: Did the president mislead the American people when he made that comment repeatedly?
JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Jim, no. The president was clear about a basic fact. What is absolutely true is that if you had a plan before the Affordable Care Act that you liked on the individual market and your insurance company didn't take that away from you, and offer you instead something else that you then purchased, but they provided you the same plan this whole time, you can keep it. And that's true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: And so the White House is trying to make the case, Anderson, that what has happened for those millions of Americans out there who were getting these cancellations letters, getting these changes to their policies is that this is not happening because of Obamacare. It's the insurance companies that are doing it.
COOPER: But -- that's -- I mean, just factually that's not really accurate because what Carney was saying is well, insurance companies are taking away these plans. In the cases of this -- of this 5 percent, this 15 million people, in many cases the reason they are taking away the plans is because the plans are very basic and they don't actually comply with the new requirements under the Affordable Care Act. They don't have maternity leave or -- or maternity care or they don't have mental health care, which are basic coverage, right?
ACOSTA: Right. That's right. And I tried to go back and forth with Jay Carney on this for several minutes. This went on for a pretty long time. A little bit longer than perhaps a correspondent might have to question the press secretary on this.
Anderson, quite frankly, I just don't know if he ever really answered that question but what they do say is that yes, there are people who are being affected by this. What they aren't really computing or acknowledging, Anderson, is that the reason why these people are being affected is because their plans don't comply with Obamacare.
ACOSTA: And so, you know, they can blame insurance companies but it's Obamacare that is causing these companies to cancel these plans.
COOPER: And now supporters of this say well, look, the plans these people have, they're not great plans, they're too basic, and -- and a lot of these people are going to get better plans. The flipside of that is it may end up costing them more if they don't qualify for subsidies.
ACOSTA: That's right.
COOPER: These new plans may cost them more.
ACOSTA: That's exactly -- and that's exactly right. And that is what the White House is trying to say in their pitch right now is that yes, there are millions of people out there who are going to be disrupted in all of this but in the end, unlike the pre-Obamacare era where they might be out of luck, in the new Obamacare era, at least they'll be able to go online conceivably if the Web site is working, buy insurance and then have coverage.
But yes, while the benefits may be better, while there might be more coverage, those policies are going to cost more.
ACOSTA: And, Anderson, I talked to an insurance industry representative who said this should never have come as a surprise to the White House. This should have always been something that they knew was coming because these high deductible catastrophic care plans that a lot of Americans had were just not going to work in the Obamacare era. Those policies are really out the window.
COOPER: All right, Jim. I appreciate the reporting. Thanks.
Let me know what you think. Follow me on Twitter, at andersoncooper. Tweet using hash tag ac360.
We're going to expand this conversation next with former Vermont governor, presidential candidate, Dr. Howard Dean, also conservative strategist Ralph Reed. We'll talk about the details of this.
Later, my exclusive interview -- this is an amazing. Extreme surfer, his name is Carlos Burle. He rescued a woman from drowning then found time to surf what may be a 100-foot wall of water that would -- that sent him into the record books. Well, it could have killed him but it could very well sent him into record books if it a 100-foot wall of water, it would be a new world record. The biggest wave ever surfed. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLOS BURLE, EXTREME SURFER: My foot was kind of coming out of my foot straps.
COOPER: Your foot was coming out of your foot straps?
BURLE: Yes. Yes.
BURLE: Yes, that --
COOPER: That's crazy.
BURLE: Well, it was crazy. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We're talking tonight about health care glitches, what President Obama knew about them, what the administration is allegedly doing to keep some of it quiet. Hearings today on Capitol Hill to know if anyone should be held accountable for problems that could affect millions of Americans beyond just glitches, frankly. You'll recall President Obama has often made a point of claiming that person should be him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The buck will stop with me. The buck will stop with me. The buck stops with me. The buck stops with me. I'm the president and the buck stops with me. The buck stops with me. Ultimately, the buck stops with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, joining us now is former Vermont governor and DNC chairman and presidential candidate, Dr. Howard Dean, also Ralph Reed, president of Century Strategies and chairman of the conservative Faith and Freedom Coalition.
Dr. Dean, let me start off with you. We have heard this president time and time again saying if you like your insurance it's not going to change. You can keep it. You can keep your doctor. We now know for some 15 million Americans that is likely not the case because their plans do not cover enough that is -- that has to be covered under the Affordable Care Act so their plans will change.
Should the president have been more up front or more precise in his language?
HOWARD DEAN, FOUNDER, DEMOCRACY FOR AMERICA: Well, let's look at that, what's actually happened. What you just said may or may not be so, if you like your insurance. These folks aren't going to know if they like their insurance or not until they see what they're going to get instead. And for the most part, for the most part, not for everybody, they're going to get much more comprehensive insurance because what they have before --
COOPER: But they may have to pay more.
DEAN: They may have to pay more but, in fact, most of them will not. Most of them will qualify for the subsidy because that's who has to go on the individual market. People who make modest incomes. So look, I -- if this is part of the blame game routine, and I'm sure there's blame to go around. I agree with the president, the buck stops with him.
But the truth of the matter is, this is going to roll out before we know how good or bad it is. I'm betting that it's going to grow out better after the first of -- after the 1st of December and that people are going to like this because they liked it in Massachusetts and in fact did what it's supposed to do in Massachusetts.
COOPER: Ralph Reed, obviously you're not a fan of it but should the president -- let me ask the same question. Should the president have been more precise when he kept saying to people, you know, your plan is not going to change if you like your plan?
RALPH REED, CHAIRMAN, FAITH AND FREEDOM COALITION: Well, if he didn't know when he was making those initial statements, Anderson, in 2008, '09 and early '10, we know from extensive reporting by multiple news organizations including NBC News and CNN, that no later than July of 2010 when the Department of Health and Human Services promulgated these regulations.
They made it abundantly clear that any change in an existing policy, including the crossing of a T or a dotting of an I, the changing of coverage, the changing of doctors, and the plan, the changing of providers or deductibles. Any change no matter how minor you were no longer grandfathered.
At that point there was a Sword of Damocles hanging over every single person in this country who is responsible, by the way, who plays by the rules and who are out of their own pocket without any taxpayer subsidies or help from their employer, goes on the private insurance market and purchases these policies.
And we now know that 50 to 75 percent of these people are going to lose their health insurance as it is currently constituted. We don't have all the evidence yet but the initial anecdotal evidence is that the deductibles are going to be higher and that the premiums are going to be two, three, four, and in some cases even five times higher.
And the terrible irony of this, the tragedy of this, is that a plan that was designed to solve a problem, which is 48 million people without insurance, is probably going to dump another seven to 10 million people off the insurance rolls and many of them will just wait until they get sick and they'll just pay the fine. They're not even going to get --
DEAN: I have to say -- I have to say respectfully that is total nonsense. That is complete speculation based on exactly nothing. The fact of the matter is that these people will all going to end up with insurance and that most of them are going to get subsides.
Technically speaking, the premium may be higher but because they're going to get subsidies, the average -- for example, the average premium for a young person is probably going to be under $100 a month. That's pretty good. For -- we've costed out some of this stuff from Vermont. The average working person making -- $30,000 a year, their costs are going to go down about 40 percent. So --
(CROSSTALK) COOPER: Some people --
DEAN: Those are just doom and doom and gloom and nonsense. Will there be some people that will hurt? Yes. The vast majority are going to be helped.
COOPER: Dr. Dean, some people, though, say --
REED: No, this is not --
COOPER: Look, if I'm suddenly now going to be forced to have health insurance that has, you know, maternity care where I'm a guy, and I don't --
DEAN: That's true.
COOPER: I don't need maternity care. And I'm going to be paying more because of that.
DEAN: That's true, Anderson. Anderson, that is true. We've had that system in place for 20 years in this state. We do not believe -- we believe that health insurance is of necessity and by design a pool which includes everybody, including men and women. So essential --
REED: Yes, and --
DEAN: In the Obamacare situation, essential care is covered. Good policies. A lot of the policies in the individual market in this country have been fly-by-night. Those will now be eliminated.
COOPER: And, Ralph --
REED: Well, I --
COOPER: People who support this say look, the people who are going to -- yes, they're going to have to change their very basic policies but they're going to get better policies, they're going to get better health care and that's going to benefit everybody.
REED: No. What's actually going to happen is, people who are healthy, people who have played by the rules and covered themselves responsibly so they weren't a burden on the government are now going to get hammered. And I talked to a Democrat in Virginia two days ago whose in his 50s. He doesn't need reproductive health services. He doesn't need maternity care.
He just got a letter from his employer -- from his insurance company. He called the insurance company. The policy they are offering him has doubled the deductible and is going to cost him $5,000 a year additional and he's being asked to pay for mental health care services and all kinds of mandates that he doesn't need, that he doesn't want, that he shouldn't have to pay for.
And my point is, what's really unfortunate about this is if we want to have a real reform that moves us in a positive direction, we would want to go in the exact opposite direction. We would want people who don't need those services to be able to buy a scaled down policy that was a high deductible, not just catastrophic but primary care, preventive care, basic services that they need and let's have a consumer patient centered health care system --
COOPER: Dr. Dean, what about it?
REED: It meets the needs of the patient.
DEAN: That is -- that is not a consumer patient -- consumer centered health care program. What happens is if you -- what happens if you get a mental illness, you don't have any coverage for it. You're completely screwed. That is a lousy policy that doesn't include mental health care.
If you allow people to invent their own health care policy and guess at what they might or might not have, that is not serious health insurance. And if you look what they did in Massachusetts, look, let's be frank. This plan that Obama has was modeled after Mitt Romney's plan that's been in effect for five years. 98.5 percent of the people in Massachusetts have health insurance. That is far greater than any other state in the country.
This program may have flaws. We have not yet discovered what they are. This is speculation, this is nonsense. I'm tired of it. I think it's time for all Americans to pull together --
REED: You know, I love --
DEAN: Do the best we can to make this work for all of us.
COOPER: Ralph, final thought --
REED: I love the way -- I love the way the Democrats invoke Mitt Romney's name when they're trying to defend the indefensible. The fact is this plan, this health care plan passed in both the Senate and the House without a single Republican vote.
COOPER: But are you -- Ralph, are saying it's not working the way Dr. Dean is saying in Massachusetts?
REED: Well, totally different situation. You had a much lower level of uninsured. You have very few people who had to buy into this. I think -- I think in Massachusetts it was in the low single digits of people who didn't have health insurance. That's not the case.
REED: In the United States as a whole. It's apples and oranges, and you shouldn't try to have a command and control system, directed out of Washington, D.C. It's a disaster.
COOPER: We got to leave it there. Dr. Dean good to have you on as always. Ralph Reed, as well.
DEAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Thank you very much.
COOPER: For more on the story go to CNN.com. Let me know what you think. Let's talk about it on Twitter hash tag ac360.
Journalist Glenn Greenwald reacts to today's testimony by top U.S. intelligence officials that friendly countries all spying each other. Is that true? Let's see what Glenn Greenwald says about it.
Daring or completely crazy, but it may be record-setting. I'm going to talk to a Brazilian surfer who rode that giant, giant monster wave.
COOPER: Welcome back. America's top intelligence officer James Clapper had a lot of lawmakers to answer today. Appearing before the House Intelligence Committee the director of National Intelligence said that America has been spying on friends for years, decades. And said U.S. allies absolutely spy on American leaders. He did now, however, say specifically whether President Obama himself knew about the NSA targeting of the phones of 35 world leaders including U.S. allies, including the German chancellor.
He did suggest the administration was aware of the type of intelligence gathering or collections, as it's called, being done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Would it be fair to say that the White House should know what those collection priorities are?
JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: They can and do, but I have to say that that does not necessarily extend down to the level of detail, and we're talking about a huge enterprise here with thousands and thousands of individual requirements.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: This all started, as you'll recall, with a report in Germany's "Der Spiegel" that the NSA monitored the German chancellor's cell phone and could be traced back to revelations from NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.
Glenn Greenwald has published the lion's share of those revelations. He's an investigative reporter and columnist for Britain's "Guardian" newspaper. He joins us tonight.
I want to play something that Vice President Dick Cheney said to Jake Tapper when he interviewed him earlier this week. Tapper asked him about Edward Snowden. I want to play what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: The problem I have with Snowden is he had access to classified information. He violated the conditions under which he got those. He's a traitor. Pure and simple. And I don't think -- I don't think you can judge him any other way. There's some people who want to say, well, he's a whistleblower. He's no whistleblower. He's done enormous damage to the United States by talking about sources and methods and the way we collect intelligence. And that's a violation of the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A number of people early on said that about Snowden. Have sort of come around and changed their opinion, but clearly Vice President Cheney has not -- doesn't sound like he is going to.
How do you respond to what he said?
GLENN GREENWALD, COLUMNIST, "THE GUARDIAN": I'm really glad that Cheney is available to speak on this because I think he underscores the most important point. Remember, Dick Cheney is a politician who engaged in some of the worst, most radical and criminal conduct in the last century in the United States and did it all in secret from lying about the war in Iraq to torturing people, to putting people in cages with no lawyers, to eavesdropping on the American people without the warrants required by law. So of course political people like Dick Cheney, people in political power always want to do what they do behind a wall of secrecy because that's how they abuse power.
They always consider those who bring transparency to what they do to be evil, treasonous people. Edward Snowden is considered a hero to people around the world and the United States and received a whistle blowing award because he did what people have conscience do, which is tell that world about things that they should know.
That the world's most powerful people are trying to keep concealed. It's created a worldwide debate over internet freedom and the value of privacy and dangers of surveillance. It's created movements for reform and all kinds of legislators around the world including in the United States and the world is much better off that the Dick Cheneys of the world aren't able to abuse their power in secret.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: So when somebody like Cheney or anybody says that it has done harm to the United States, have you seen any actual proof of harm to the United States? Is there any proof that could be shown to you that would make you believe that it has harmed the United States?
GREENWALD: Let a single government official who goes on television and says that anything that we published that's from the United States point to a single fact that we've publish that has resulted in any tangible harm and make them say what that harm is. The terrorists have always known forever that the United States government is trying to monitor their communications. We didn't tell the terrorist anything they didn't already know.
What we told the world what they didn't know is this spying system is directed at innocent people, people that have nothing to do with terrorist, people who are involved in economic trade, that it's all about bulk spying to increase the power of American political officials and what Dick Cheney and Barack Obama and Keith Alexander are angry about is not that we harm national security. What they are angry about is that we harm their reputations and their credibility by exposing their wrongful acts to the world that they wanted to keep secret.
COOPER: The director of National Intelligence James Clapper defended collecting intelligence from allies even from head to state today in the interest of national security. I just want to play for our viewers what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: To determine if what they -- from an intelligence perspective of what they are saying gels with what is going on, it's invaluable to us to know where countries are coming from, what their policies are, how that would impact us across a whole range of issues. So -- and it isn't just leaders themselves, it what goes on around them and the policies that they convey to their governments.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So Glenn, he also said this has been going on for decades. He said trying to learn what he called leadership intentions that that's essential and he said allies spy on us as well and more country has oversight of the intelligence community than the United States.
GREENWALD: Well, Anderson, what he's expressing is a warped and radical view of how international norms function as evidenced by the reaction of these leaders to the fact that they are being personally targeted. Perhaps the best evidence of that is the fact that one of the most loyal defenders of the NSA in the entire country, Diane Feinstein, the chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee said number one that she emphatically imposes this kind spying on allied leaders who are democratically elected because it does violate international norms and destroys trust.
And number two, more important, she said as the oversight chair she had no idea that this was taking place. The White House also claims that they were never told so General Alexander's assertion that well, this is all being done according to various strict oversight is being contradicted.
COOPER: But are you saying you don't believe that other nations try to spy on leadership intentions in the United States, that they want to know what President Obama is thinking and what advice they are giving him and what he's saying?
GREENWALD: Everybody spies, Anderson. Of course, every country spies, but there is a question of the degree to which they spy, how appropriate the targets are that they select and the invasiveness of that espionage so there is lots of costs and benefits to spying on allies, including the fact that if they find out you're going to destroy the relationship of trust you build up between the allies.
But what the United States system of espionage is, is a system that is unlike what anyone else in the world does, mass bulk spying on the part of tens of millions of its citizens and tens of millions in the world. Economic espionage, nothing to do with terrorism and then spending a full decade listening to the personal conversations of one of its closest allies, sure, other countries spy, but nowhere near to the extent or invasiveness or radicalism of the United States government and that's why it's become so controversial.
COOPER: Glen Greenwald, appreciate you being on. Thanks.
Up next tonight, L.A. murder mystery, police discovered body parts in two separate, but connected sewage treatment plants appears to be the same person.
Also ahead, actor, Rob Brown launches a complaint of racial profiling against a famous New York City department store. He's not the only shopper to do so.
COOPER: Let's get a quick look at headlines. Isha Sesay has the 360 Bulletin -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a murder mystery in Los Angeles, body parts turned up in two separate but connected sewage treatment plants are believed to be the same person. Police believed the victim is a woman whose body was intentionally placed inside the city's sewage system.
Jurors in the Martin Macneill murder trial heard an interview his younger daughter gave in 2008 when she was 7. She told police her mother's body was quote, "all the way in the bathtub" when she found her. That description contradicts what Martin told investigators.
Anderson, New York City police Commissioner Ray Kelly was booed off the stage at Brown University. He was there to give a lecture on pro- active policing also known as stop and frisk. The talk was cancelled. Police commissioner feeling the anger among some students there.
COOPER: All right, Isha, thanks very much.
Tonight, there are new allegations of racial profiling with the New York City police as well as two high-profile New York department stores accused of singling out African-Americans. The New York state attorney general has given the retailers until Friday to turnover policy information on stopping and detaining customers and when they alert authorities.
Two African-American shoppers were stopped and questioned by police after buying expensive items at Barneys New York. Today, the store said an internal investigation found that no employees were involved and a Macy's flag ship store is investigated after two African- Americans claimed they were stopped and questioned by police after buying expensive items at Barney's New York.
Today, the store said an internal investigation found that no employees were involved in the alleged incident. The Macy's flag ship store in Herald Square is also being investigated after two African- Americans complained that they were detained by police after making purchase.
One of those shoppers is Rob Brown, an actor, who stars in the HBO's series "Tramae." He says he was accused of buying an expensive watch with a fraud credit card. He's now suing the store and the New York Police Department. In a statement, Macy's said there is no record that employees called police about Brown. I spoke to him and his attorney.
COOPER: Rob, you were in Macy's to buy a watch for your mom for her graduation. Explained what happened.
ROB BROWN, ACTOR: Well, I go to Macy's to select a watch, decided I wanted to get her a Mavado watch. An older gentleman helped me select the watch. Finally figured out which one I wanted. It happened to be a display model so he needed to clean some glue off it where the tag is.
BROWN: While he was doing that, I went to a sun glass hut in Macy's to select some shades for myself. At that point, I went to finish the transaction with the watch. I used my American Express card, everything was fine, signed for it, got a receipt. Transaction is over. I go to complete the transaction with the shades, before I could get them, I have my credit card to pay for it and I get tapped on my shoulder. I turn around.
I see a white male. There is another white male, and someone taps my arm, another white male and at that point, I say what is going on? They say that's a fake card. You're going to jail. Someone show some kind of badge. It happened quickly so I'm like OK. Look, I just used this card to buy this watch. It's not a fake card. I have plenty of I.D. on me. They cuff me, parade me around the store. We do this all the time, it's a fake card. You're going to jail.
COOPER: Couldn't the salesperson called American Express and verify the card was real?
BROWN: Anderson, that the same question I have at the time, I'm still asking. He's going through my I.D. and asking me about previous addresses, my Louisiana address, I have a condo down there in New Orleans. That clued me in like OK, what do you know about New Orleans? Maybe you recognize me from the show set in New Orleans. So they release me or at least let me out of the cell. I get to graduation late. I'm going to the balcony and find where they are sitting and find my mom. COOPER: This special day was basically.
COOPER: What is that feeling to be paraded through the store like that?
BROWN: It was furry and helplessness because I'm just here to try and buy a watch for my mother, that's all and I get locked up for it? What more do I have to do to keep this from happening?
COOPER: So the fact you were buying an expensive watch, that may have played a role, raised some eyebrows among people?
BROWN: I'm not sure that's why we're doing this investigation, but that's the only thing that makes sense. I'm fairly young, black, what is this kid doing?
COOPER: It's $1,300 watch.
BROWN: And go get shades -- something is up. Let's find what is up.
JOHN ELEFTERAKIS, ROB BROWN'S ATTORNEY: Even if you break it down, the initial approach, if you look at the NYPD and their actions the way they approached him so aggressively, not giving him even a moment to verify his identity. Not even thinking to call American Express because as he said before, they were certain that his card was a fake.
BROWN: He kept saying to me, we do this all the time. It a fake card, you're going to jail and I looked him in the eye and realized this is no talking to this man. I'm going to jail because there is no budging on this.
COOPER: I'll talk to a Brazilian surfer about his possibly record breaking ride on a monster potentially killer wave off Portugal.
COOPER: Welcome back. A Brazilian surfer may have set a new world record that's Carlos Burle riding a monster wave off the coast of Portugal yesterday in the town of (inaudible). According to initial estimates it was taller than 100 feet, not definitive though, that's well over the number he needs to break a record in 2007 by another big wave surfer named Garrett Macamara.
Garrett Macamara's record is 78 foot wave in the very same waters off Portugal. Location is known as a Mecca for giant waves and also incredibly dangerous spot to surf. There are rocks right at the base just before he caught that mountain of a wave, which could have killed him. Burle rescued a fellow surfer and friend who nearly drowned.
Joining me is exclusively is Carlos Burle. Congratulations. I watched the video of you on that wave over and over again today. Every single time your heart stops. What was it like riding the wave? CARLOS BURLE, BIG WAVE SURFER: It's crazy, you know, because you going so fast and you know that it can fall and it's like going down a mountain that never ends because while the wave it -- it's very intense and it's so hard for you to keep control in a situation like that, and I had my heart coming up out of my mouth all the time like you have to hold yourself. You have to hold yourself.
You're not going to fall. You're not going to fall. I was so happy when I made it all the way to the bottom and I hold the first white water hit me and the second white water I couldn't hold anymore, but I made it and I made it and I was glad just to do it, you know.
COOPER: I interviewed Garrett last year and I was there with him and when he was riding that 78-foot wave, the current record, he looked back and described it like being an avalanche. Did you actually look back at the wave when you were on it?
BURLE: No, I didn't, not on this one. I didn't have time to do it. I was trying to keep control all the time. My board was just jumping all over the place. My foot was kind of coming out of my foot straps.
COOPER: Your foot was coming out of your foot straps?
BURLE: Yes, yes.
COOPER: Wow, that's crazy.
BURLE: That was crazy, you know, just going so fast and my foot was coming out and it was so tired. I did everything correctly but you know how it is, it so hard to keep control because you hitting bumps after bumps and you going fast.
COOPER: And right before you went on that wave and had that incredible ride, another surfer, a woman named Maya Gabrielle, a woman you train with almost dawned. What happened to her?
BURLE: Se was doing OK at the beginning. She hit couple bumps and kept control, but somehow she fell, and she went -- when she fell, I lost eye contact with her for at least 4 or 5 minutes and she disappear on the next wave and when she was face down. And I decided to let the ski go and jump in the water and then I took her and grabbed her and I said she's not going anywhere, I'm going to stay with her and luckily, I was able to make it all the way to the beach.
COOPER: And she's OK now?
BURLE: Yes, we did the CPR and she went to the hospital with the ambulance. She's OK. She's doing all right. She's alive.
COOPER: Right after doing CPR on her you went out and road this incredible wave. Do you have a sense? Everybody is looking for -- to ride a 100-foot wave. Do you think this is a 100-foot wave? I know lit take months before it actually decided.
BURLE: Yes, there is a huge possibility for that to happen because last year, last season Garrett rode the wave here and everybody was saying that that would be the 100-foot wave, but his wave didn't break and this wave that I surf was just on the right spot and this one broke and it's there. You know, you can check all the images, the pictures and it incredible.
COOPER: Well, it awesome and congratulations and it great for you. It's great for Garrett and everybody and it's great for the town, which I know everybody who surfs there has a special feeling for it. So Carlos, congratulations. Thanks very much for talking.
BURLE: I hope to one day get to meet you and take you for surfing.
COOPER: That would be great.
I don't think I'm ready for the 100-footer. "The Ridiculist" is next.
COOPER: Time now for "The Ridiculist." A cautionary tale, in Connecticut, the WFSD morning news team was disgust when the meteorologist, Scott Haney, found some food on the studio floor and ate it. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You look great and that's all over here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is happening?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on, clean up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's go to the roads.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't believe you ate that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can't?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's elephant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They taste like shoes. Smells like feet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are crazy. You just ate that right off the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think that the -- I don't think --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is beyond the three-second rule. Way beyond.
COOPER: So he ate some cereal off the floor. I'm not judging except it does get worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ladies and gentlemen, those were not grape nuts that I ate. I kept finding more and more of it on the floor and I thought it was grape nuts because it looked just like it. My cat threw up and I stepped it in and that's what I ate. I thought it was grape nuts. I ate cat vomit right here on television. It's disgusting. It's on the bottom of my show. I thought it was grape nuts and it's cat vomit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Not grape nuts. More like cat chukula. Add a glass of long expired orange juice and some toast you found a dumpster. He has taken flak from it. Give the man some credit. It's not every man that would scarf booty pebbles on air. He could say nothing and could have ate grape nuts off the floor. From a producing standpoint this did help to fill that day's trending now segment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to throw up. A lesson that's what is trending now, Irene, I'm sick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're all sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, it's like in pieces right here. I thought it was grape nuts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Make it go away, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm done. I'm not doing my story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Thanks for showing us that, Scott. So the next time you see what you think is cereal, it's part of a balanced breakfast on "The Ridiculist." That does it for us. We'll see you an hour from now at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, "AC360 LATER." Hope you join us for that. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.