Return to Transcripts main page


Fighting for Ukraine; Gathering Storm over East China Sea; A Picasso Piece for Only 100 Euros; Imagine a World

Aired December 3, 2013 - 14:00:00   ET


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, and tonight we are exploring two major stories, the gathering storm over the East China Sea and on Europe's eastern flank, where protesters continue to gather in the main Independence Square in Kiev.

But the opposition failed today to get a vote of no-confidence passed against the government.

Joining me right now from Ukraine is Vitali Klitschko. He is the reigning heavyweight boxing champion and he's also one of the leaders of the opposition.

Mr. Klitschko, thank you for joining me.

What is your next move since you failed, the opposition failed to win that vote of no-confidence in Parliament today?

VITALI KLITSCHKO, UDAR PARTY: Good evening, everybody. It's today in Parliament, what happens actually in a couple of two days, and all people in Ukraine very upset with the government destroyed wish of signing special agreement with European Union.

And just couple of days ago, a group of students demonstrate for European Union this European and Ukranian flags. And special police forces beat the students very badly. And people very upset and angry with that. And nobody in government take responsibility for this activity.

AMANPOUR: OK. Mr. Klitschko --


KLITSCHKO: Right now --

AMANPOUR: Mr. Klitschko, Mr. Klitschko, what happens next? The prime minister has said that he's willing to hold talks with the opposition. But if the opposition doesn't respond, then he said we have the forces.

Are you, is the opposition ready to hold talks with the government?

KLITSCHKO: We go to the people and support his interest and if so many people come into the street because this protest mostly in Ukraine right now is very big. And our proposal, if you do not agree and send the government to retirement, we have to come together.

And that's why we ask the people, if you do not agree, if you are ready to defend your future, please, come in to us, support us and we definitely -- we have people coming to the street.

Last weekend, more than a couple of hundred thousand people was in the street, just in the capital of Ukraine.

AMANPOUR: Right. But Mr. Klitschko, your -- you seem to be saying, then, that these protests will continue and you're calling on President Yanukovych and the government to step down.

Are you saying no to talks, no to any compromise or some kind of talks with the government?

KLITSCHKO: We are ready to talk. But everyone, somebody have to be responsible for this activity. And it's not enough to tell just stories, happens. We don't -- Ukranians don't want to live in police country.

If nobody take responsibility right now, it's mean (INAUDIBLE) the next time it happens exactly the same and again. A prime minister or minister of police say, sorry. It happens. How am I -- how many times we have to listen to that? And that's why we talk. Somebody have to take responsibility.

AMANPOUR: All right. Well, let's say somebody does.


KLITSCHKO: (INAUDIBLE) prime minister is responsible.

AMANPOUR: Yes. All right. Well, let me ask you this, because you yourself have been out there, trying to keep your side peaceful. You are described as trying to, you know, stop any kind of violence on the side of the demonstrators.

What is your strategy in these big demonstrations?

KLITSCHKO: The synergy to show for government will. And if government tells the people coming and going can say no, we don't listen to you. And that why is our main point. We have to come into the street. And say no for this government, for president who support this government. And that's why it's (INAUDIBLE) whole system.

It's -- we -- our main goal because the system, it's painful to talk about it, but painful to listen as Ukraine is most corrupt country in Europe. And just the week before Vilnius, the government stopped cessation (ph) agreement and very -- they steal, the government steal the hope of the people to make reform to live better with European standards of life.

That is main point. And that's why we come to the people. If you want to live with European standards of life, we have to come into the street and make peaceful demonstration against government, against the political president.

AMANPOUR: OK. Let me -- let me ask you this, let's see, you know, where these protests lead. But there's another issue, right, and that issue is the actions of Moscow, of President Putin.

Is there a way to deescalate this conflict and to somehow persuade Moscow that your desires to be closer to Europe does not threaten Russia, does not threaten Moscow?

Have you thought about that side?

KLITSCHKO: We talk to everybody as peaceful demonstration. It's -- we understand the deal of political interest of our east neighbor. It's very big but it's 60 percent of Ukranians want to be part of the European Union. And we have to defend the -- this idea, to live these European standards. It's what we are -- regarding Russia, it's a question of what we understand, its influence is very big from Russia.

But influence not of the people in (INAUDIBLE) president. And he hope -- we hope he defend the interests of the people and not the interests of neighbor countries.

AMANPOUR: Vitali Klitschko, thank you very much indeed for joining me. We'll keep watching.

And of course, meantime, the president right now, Vitaly Yushchenko, or rather Viktor Yushchenko, is indeed in China, ironically seeking some kind of economic help to stave off the deep economic crisis in Ukraine at the moment.

And now we do turn to the Pacific, where, as I mentioned, tension is rising over China's newly declared Air Defense Identification Zone, asserting its air rights over a hotly contested chain of islands that China calls Diaoyu and the Japanese call the Senkaku. It's the latest move in a decades-old diplomatic standoff.

The U.S. military responded to China's claim with some muscle flexing of its own, sending two unarmed B-52 bombers through the heart of that contested airspace.

So is China spreading its wings while trying to clip the wings of long-time rivals in the region?

The U.S. vice president, Joseph Biden, heads to China later today and he hopes to push forward America's troubled pivot to Asia.

First, though, he did stop in Japan, which the U.S. is treaty bound to protect and after meeting Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, he delivered Beijing a sharp diplomatic rebuke.


JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We, the United States, are deeply concerned by the attempt to unilaterally change the status quo in the East China Sea.

This action has raised regional tensions and increased the risk of accidents and miscalculation.


AMANPOUR: So joining me now is the leading architect of that pivot to Asia. He's Kurt Campbell, who, until earlier this year, was assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific Affairs.

Joining me now live from Washington, welcome to the program. And let me ask you straight off, you heard the vice president talk about a potential miscalculation, an accidental conflict being triggered.

How likely do you think that is?

And what will that look like? Let's be serious.

KURT CAMPBELL, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE, EAST ASIAN AND PACIFIC AFFAIRS: First of all, it's great to be with you on the show today, Christiane.

Alas, it is much more likely now than it's probably been in years. And I think the consequences in the local sense would be a small skirmish, probably easily contained.

But the larger context, particularly of the relationship between what is really the two great countries of Asia, China and Japan, the consequences are impossible to underestimate. I think tensions between the two countries are greater now than they've been probably in a half century. And this most recent declaration on the part of China makes the tense situation that much worse.

AMANPOUR: So what can Vice President Biden or anybody in the Obama administration do to deescalate this right now?

CAMPBELL: Well, I think right now the most important thing that the United States can do is draw a very clear line about that the new demarcation of a military air zone along the lines that China has indicated is deeply provocative.

Let's not forget that through this airspace every day travels dozens of airliners. This is a recipe for the kind of incident that we saw in 1983, with the downing of Korean Air 007. It creates uncertainties with fighter aircraft coming up to inspect. This is not helpful. And what is - - sorry?

AMANPOUR: Sorry. Given that and given what you say, the U.S. has to be very clear about this, provocation as you've termed it.

Is there a clear U.S. red line that's been drawn, then, because at first people thought that President Obama did the right thing, sending over the unarmed B-52 bombers; now the administration is talking about urging civilian aircraft to seek permission or identify themselves to the Chinese.

The Japanese don't like that very much. Is the Obama administration showing too much flexibility here?

CAMPBELL: Well, there are two imperatives here, in a sense. One is on the military side in which we responded very clearly that we were not going to acknowledge this new declared zone on the part of China.

Still, civilian airspace monitors in Japan, the United States and elsewhere, have a different set of metrics. And their prime directive is to avoid a mishap in the air basically on top of anything else.

And so their initial guidance was apolitical in that sense. But I think the problem is that it has created a little bit of incoherence; and I would expect that Vice President Biden will try to clarify what our position is going forward.


AMANPOUR: And what is the position then? (INAUDIBLE) assistant secretary.

CAMPBELL: Yes. I think -- I think what will likely happen is that we will continue to operate militarily in that area, as we always have been, and people fly through there regularly.

I think that there will be some clarifications with respect to the FAA in the coming days or weeks that will make clear that we do not recognize this zone, but certain kinds of communication protocols will be followed to avoid a problem.

Now I recognize that that's not -- it's imperfect; but given where we are, that is the best we can do. What the vice president has to do, though, is privately convey to Japan and China that, look this is the cockpit of the global economy. It's the only place on the planet where economies are growing; they are fighting over a barren rock in a distant part of the Pacific.

Now I know it represents larger sort of nationalist identities and the like. But these problems have existed for decades. And the key here is you have export it into the future, change the subject, recognize that both countries have much bigger stakes than struggling over the identity of an uninhabited island in the middle of nowhere.

AMANPOUR: Kurt Campbell, thank you so much for joining us. And of course, as you talk about the economy for the United States and for the rest of the world, trying to negotiate with China is difficult because the economies now are so heavily intertwined.

CAMPBELL: Very difficult.

AMANPOUR: After -- yes, indeed. Thank you for joining me.

And after a break, we're going to turn to artwork, a Picasso, no less; the artist's grandson will tell us that with the luck of the draw, it can be yours. That's when we come back.




AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Imagine owning a Picasso and only paying 100 euros for it. For one lucky person, that'll soon be a reality, thanks to Pablo Picasso's grandson, Olivier, and an unusual charity fundraiser.

Fifty thousand raffle tickets are up for grabs for a chance to win this piece; it's called "The Man with the Opera Hat." It's a Cubist work that Picasso did nearly 100 years ago, and his signature, a little difficult to see, is jotted across the upper right-hand corner.

Tickets are going fast online; 40,000 so far have been bought by people with Picassos in their eyes. And the proceeds are all for a cause that you might not expect, protecting the ancient Phoenician city of Tyre in Lebanon.

Tyre was devastated during the 15-year Lebanese civil war. Its many ancient monuments have been damaged beyond repair. And let's not forget; Tyre features prominently in our earliest civilian, 80 mentions in the Bible alone. The money raised will give the ancient city a new art center and a scholarly institute.

Picasso's grandson, Olivier, is the force behind this raffle. He believes his grandfather, a pioneer in every aspect of his work and his life, would love the idea of this first as in never has a major work of art by such a major artist ever changed hands like this before.

And this week I sat down with Olivier here in New York as he travels with the work just ahead of the raffle being drawn, which is later this month.


AMANPOUR: Welcome, Olivier.


AMANPOUR: We're going to talk about the work that you are raffling for charity. And it's sitting right here. I have to say, it's kind of weird to be in the presence of a Picasso.

PICASSO: It's always something bizarre because it's different from a book. When you are in contact with something that my grandfather, that Picasso, touched, it's really a different feeling.

AMANPOUR: Is it real?

PICASSO: It's real, for sure. Yes.

AMANPOUR: How much is it worth on the open market?

PICASSO: This very specific artwork is worth something like $1 million.

AMANPOUR: $1 million?

PICASSO: Yes. So it's really something serious (ph).

AMANPOUR: This artwork is called "Man with an Opera Hat"?


AMANPOUR: What is it -- what is the significance of it?

PICASSO: The important thing of this work is because it's the second part of the Cubism period of my grandfather. It's what we call the synthetic Cubism, when he was trying to represent objects and figures with colors, in this case, to replace the perspective. And in this case, it's important because we are in 1914 --


AMANPOUR: Nearly 100 years ago.

PICASSO: -- nearly 100 years ago, yes.


This is really valuable. It's really meaningful in art history.

PICASSO: It's something that normally you find in a museum.

AMANPOUR: And somebody is going to get it, having paid $100 or so for a raffle ticket.

PICASSO: Yes. It's --


AMANPOUR: Doesn't that blow your mind a little bit?

PICASSO: I don't think it's a chance. It's a wonderful opportunity to have a Picasso for 100 euros, $135. And for the rest of the people who have -- who will buy a ticket, it will be a chance to help the city of Tyre.

So in both ways, it's a good action.

AMANPOUR: Why Tyre? Why have you decided to take one of these wonderful, valuable works of art and do something extraordinary with it on behalf of a city in Lebanon that not many people know about? Why?

PICASSO: You know, I'm French. I'm not primarily concerned by Lebanon or Tyre. But I understood the importance of this city, first as a Phoenician city, which is probably the origin of our Western world civilization.

AMANPOUR: Phoenician?

PICASSO: Phoenician. It's always difficult to maintain an old, an ancient city. So not only because the architecture but also because of the people living there.

And the city of Tyre has been damaged by military problems, wars and today the site of the restoration of the architecture is also important to preserve the traditions.

AMANPOUR: So your friends, who had this idea in this association, they said, he's a Picasso, maybe we can get a Picasso out of him.

PICASSO: It was a different story. My friend, Peri Cochin, who is in charge of the operation, came to me, thinking that organizing a dinner, a charity dinner, was boring and always the same type of thing.

So she came up with the idea to make a raffle and to put the Picasso as a winning prize.

And when she told me this idea, I was wondering, hmm, it will be very difficult.

AMANPOUR: Are you an artist? Did you inherit any of Picasso's genes?

PICASSO: No, it's difficult. I've tried but it's easy to be a banker after a banker. But to be a Picasso after Picasso, it's really difficult.

AMANPOUR: That's really well said.

Did you know him? Did you ever meet him?

PICASSO: No, I was too young. So he was part of the family. I mean, part of my life, as a child, with painting from the walls and drawings and photos. But I just realized how much it was important that he died because I discovered my grandfather's own tradition.


PICASSO: Like discovering that he had many women and discovering that he was supposed to be a Communist, but also a billionaire, that he was someone old and not cherishing his friends and family. And in fact, it took me years to discover the truth.

AMANPOUR: You talked about how you were surprised by, you know, you learned that he had many women.

Well, one of those women was your grandmother, Marie-Therese Walter.

What was she like? What did she tell you about your grandfather? What was her relationship with him?

PICASSO: I remember her because she was visiting us very often and she was (INAUDIBLE) same, as you can see in the paintings, that blonde woman. She was a simple woman, but she had only one love in her life; it was Picasso.

So for me as a child it was nothing special. But now I realize how much it was a big thing. In fact, when he met her, on that January 27 of 1927, in front of the Galeries Lafayette in Paris, she was 17; he was 46.

And he told her, "Mademoiselle, I would like to make your portrait."

She said, "No, you and I, we're going to make great things together."

She probably didn't know what was going to happen. And it's true that today when you look at the auctions like a month ago in New York, Marie- Therese was at the top of the list. The record price paid for a Picasso in a private sale, it's a Marie-Therese.

AMANPOUR: And then when he died in 1973, what happened to your grandmother?

PICASSO: Oh, when he died, I realized later that my grandmother had lost a link to the exceptional life. She was now back to ordinary daily life. And four years later, she killed herself.

AMANPOUR: Had he already done "Guernica"?

PICASSO: Yes. And there is a possible true story about that with a Nazi officer who came to his atelier.


PICASSO: A Nazi -- and showed him a postcard representing the "Guernica" painting. And he asked my grandfather, "Is it you who did this?"

And my grandfather said, "No. It's you," which is an interesting story. I think it's true.

AMANPOUR: Olivier Picasso, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

PICASSO: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: An amazing story; he might not have the artistic genes, but he certainly looks like Pablo Picasso and "Guernica," the painting we were discussing, as you may know, is Picasso's massive mural that depicted the horrors of the Spanish Civil War. And it was for works like that that the Nazis denounced Picasso as a degenerate artist.

And after a break, as the Rainbow Nation celebrates a new film biography of Nelson Mandela, imagine walking in his legendary footsteps, not on the dusty streets of Soweto, but on the grounds of a luxury 5-star resort. We'll explain when we come back.




AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, "The Long Walk to Freedom," the long- awaited biopic of the life of Nelson Mandela opened last week to glowing reviews in New York and Los Angeles. It's opening this week in London, and it's already broken the box office in Mandela's homeland, South Africa.

Sixteen years in the making, so much of the Rainbow Nation has changed that filmmakers had to find new locations for iconic sites, like the infamous shantytown of Soweto, where middle class housing and shopping malls have replaced many of the dusty streets where Mandela once walked.

Now imagine a world where you can experience the old Soweto, complete with central heating, optional breakfast and wi-fi.

Emoya, luxury hotel and spa, a 5-star game resort about 250 miles from the real Soweto, is offering a safe and sanitized shantytown experience for its wealthy tourist trade.

So forget Disney World. You and your family can walk manicured dirt roads past colorful shacks made of corrugated tin with outdoor toilets and open fires and even roaming animals, and you can still bed down in comfort in your all-electric hovel. It's called poverty tourism, or poorism. And it's not unique to South Africa.

In Rio de Janeiro and Mumbai, walking tours of the some of the world's largest slums are a popular draw.

Counter-exploitation? Or consciousness raising? One thing's for sure; poverty is the new luxury.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website,, and follow me on Twitter and Facebook. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.