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The 11th Hour
Sandy Hook 911 Tapes Reveal Heroes in Midst of Horrors; Important Lessons To Be Learned from 911 Tapes; Victims' Families Divided on 911 Tape Release; Who Decides What We See and When?
Aired December 04, 2013 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: December 14, almost one year ago. When you hear the 911 tapes from that day at Sandy Hook your heart just sinks. But does anyone really need to hear that again?
I'm Don Lemon. This is THE 11TH HOUR.
I want you to listen to something else, something just as powerful, two people on opposite sides of that tragedy, the aunt of Adam Lanza and the father of one of the 6-year-olds he killed. Both of them agree about one thing, the 911 tapes should not have been released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARSHA LANZA, AUNT OF ADAM LANZA: I don't think the timing is right for them to be released. I think emotions are very raw and too soon.
NEIL HESLIN, FATHER OF SANDY HOOK VICTIM: I wish they weren't released. It's just a sad reminder of what happened. And clearly that the day is etched in my mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Again, welcome to THE 11TH HOUR, everyone. We're going to be mindful of what they both said and we won't play those tapes gratuitously.
And I must warn you, they can be hard to listen to. But they are also heroes in the midst of the horror. This is their story, too.
Deborah Feyerick has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first call came from a school secretary moments after class started. It gives insight into how quickly the shooter, Adam Lanza, was able to get into the secured building.
(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)
911 DISPATCHER: 911. What's the location of your emergency?
CALLER: Sandy Hook school. I think there's somebody shooting in here at Sandy Hook School. 911 DISPATCHER: OK. What makes you think that?
CALLER: Because somebody's got a gun. I caught a glimpse of somebody running down the hallway.
911 DISPATCHER: OK.
CALLER: They're still running. They're still shooting. Sandy Hook School, please.
(END AUDIO FEED)
LEMON: Seven 911 calls were released and they captured the fear and quiet urgency of those inside and the professionalism of police dispatchers. One woman shot in the foot crawled into a classroom where several children hid near a bookcase.
(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)
911 DISPATCHER: Are you safe right now?
CALLER: I think so. My classroom door is not locked.
911 DISPATCHER: OK. Is there anybody that can lock the classroom door without -- being safe?
CALLER: No.
911 DISPATCHER: Is it safe to do so? OK. All right. Just stay where you are.
CALLER: There's children in this room, too.
911 DISPATCHER: Try to apply pressure, OK?
CALLER: Yeah.
911 DISPATCHER: We have people coming, OK?
CALLER: Uh-huh.
911 DISPATCHER: All right.
Is there any other teacher with you in there or it's just students?
CALLER: No. There's two other adults in the room with me.
911 DISPATCHER: OK. All right. Are they right next to you? Where are they in the room?
CALLER: No, they're over on the other side of the book shelf.
911 DISPATCHER: OK. All right. Are you OK right now?
CALLER: For now, hopefully.
(END AUDIO FEED)
FEYERICK: According to a report by the state's attorney, that teacher and the students in that classroom survived.
A judge upheld a Freedom of Information Act request made by the Associated Press and ordered the tapes released.
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, (D), CONNECTICUT: And the judge really had no choice but to order their release.
FEYERICK: The victims' families successfully fought to ban release of the crime scene photos. Many were upset that wasn't the case with the 911 calls.
BLUMENTHAL: I will never forget the sights and sounds of parents emerging, knowing that their children would not be coming home that day. And I think the tapes bring back those memories.
FEYERICK: While painful, some psychologists say the audio could help in the healing process.
DR. JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think listening to these tapes, of course, will open up --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Old wounds.
GARDERE: Yes, some of the old wounds. But sometimes you do have to open them in order to clean them out.
FEYERICK (voice-over): While there are glimpses of fear among some of the callers, forensic experts say the tapes are valuable for police to assess future active-shooter situations.
KRIS MOHANDIE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: How can we better respond to these events? What happened? Was there anything that we did well?
FEYERICK: For one police dispatcher, school custodian, Rick Thorn, became eyes and ears, providing real-time intelligence.
(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)
RICK THORN, SCHOOL CUSTODIAN: I keep hearing shooting. I keep hearing popping.
911 DISPATCHER: OK.
Guys, we got a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown. That's what 911 is ringing off the hook for.
(END AUDIO FEED)
FEYERICK: At one point, the custodian, still on the phone with the dispatcher, is confronted by responding police officers. After he urgently identifies himself, he relays information between those officers and the 911 dispatcher.
(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)
THORN: I'm on the phone with dispatch.
UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Victims in the building.
THORN: Victims in the buildings.
911 DISPATCHER: How many?
THORN: How many?
UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Two down.
THORN: Two down.
911 DISPATCHER: OK. Is it safe?
UNIDENTIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Did you see anybody with a gun?
THORN: I saw nobody.
(END AUDIO FEED)
FEYERICK: What's clear from the released audio is how police and those in the school responded. No panic, but calm determination to deal with the unimaginable.
For THE 11TH HOUR, Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Brings it all back, doesn't it?
Now I want to bring in a man who unfortunately knows too well how the Sandy Hook parents must have been feeling tonight. His name is Tom Mauser. His son, Daniel, was shot and killed in the massacre at Columbine High School in 1999. He also wrote about it in the book called "Walking in Daniel's Shoes." And Rich Harwood is with us, too. He and his team went to Sandy Hook after the shootings to help out.
Tom, I want to start with you.
Your son, Daniel, killed in Columbine 14 years ago. As I said it brings it all back as I was listening to those tapes from Sandy Hook. I was there covering it. What do you think when you hear that?
TOM MAUSER, SON KILLED AT COLUMBINE & AUTHOR: It takes me back. And I think of what it was like for us, the one-year anniversary of Columbine. And here these parents are having to deal not only with the one-year anniversary but so close to the holiday season.
LEMON: So you don't think --
MAUSER: I'm sure it's really difficult.
LEMON: Yeah. So what goes through your mind? I hate to ask you the same question but more specifically, do you kind of relive the situation? And do you think that happens for the parents of the people in Newtown?
MAUSER: Oh, absolutely. It does send you back. There's so many things that can trigger it for you. For me, it's even -- if there is more than one helicopter hovering above me someplace, I get this awful feeling. Because it sends me back to that day with all the news helicopters flying over Columbine as we were trying to find out where our children were.
LEMON: Yeah. The Columbine tapes were released. Were you able to avoid listening to those tapes?
MAUSER: You know, Don, the 911 tapes, the public has heard part of them but not all of them. The parents were given an opportunity to listen to all of the tapes. And some of us chose to do so. It took me a couple of years before I could -- I could get the strength to go and listen to them. And it was awful. I mean, I could hear each individual shot. I could hear the shooters whooping it up as they were shooting fellow students. It was horrific.
LEMON: Rich --
(CROSSTALK)
MAUSER: And I don't feel that other people need to listen to that.
LEMON: Yeah.
Rich, Newtown leaders invited you and your team to come to the town to help them with dealing with this. And you spent lots of time with the families. What do you think happened to the families after the release of these tapes and hearing these tapes?
RICH HARWOOD, HARWOOD INSTITUTE FOR PUBLIC INNOVATION: I think when you listen to these tapes they're chilling, Don. They're tormenting. I can't imagine the people that I know in Newtown having to go through the process of listening to these tapes, of reliving what happened, of really hearing what was happening in almost real time in that school. And as you could hear on these tapes -- I listened to them this afternoon. And as Tom just mentioned you can hear the gun shots, the repeated gun shots being fired off. And one can only imagine what's happening as those gun shots are being fired off. And one's heart just goes out to the people of Newtown as you listen to these tapes.
LEMON: Rich, a year later, how are the families dealing with this? And I ask you because I remember being there and, quite honestly -- and I've said this on the air before -- it was -- I actually felt honored to be able to cover that story and do it in a sensitive way and bring it to the world. But I could leave Sandy Hook, and I couldn't wait to leave because it was such a depressing place. Those people couldn't leave and they have dealt with it for a year now. How are they doing?
HARWOOD: Well, I think it's tough. But I think the point you're making is really important. All of us watch these scenes on television when they happen. We check in every once in awhile. But not until you actually go to Newtown and you drive around -- it's a small New England town of about 27,000, 28,000 people. Sandy Hook is a borough, essentially a neighborhood of Newtown. Wherever you go in the community, you have a sense of what happened. You see people bumping into each other. You see signs and cards that were sent to the town, for instance, at the Blue Colony Diner from folks in Montana. People are just enveloped by this. And there is no escaping it. And yet, every single day, they need to get up, they need to get out of bed, they need to go to work, they need to take their children to school, they need to try to live their lives while all this is happening around them, and while something like these 911 tapes are released, which is just another blow to the community.
LEMON: Yeah.
Tom, this is coming as we're doing this story now right before the one-year anniversary on the 14th. What do you think that these families will be experiencing? Does this compound, I should say, the situation because it's happening right at the anniversary?
MAUSER: Absolutely. You know, I heard something said on this show earlier by someone who said, "You have to open a wound to heal it." That presumes that these folks are not facing these problems and these issues every day. They are. They're faced with it so much. There's so much for them to deal with. Why do we have to lay more on them? I think that's the question. For no good reason.
LEMON: Tom, advice?
And I'll ask you, Rich.
Advice for these families on dealing with this anniversary? First, Tom?
MAUSER: Unfortunately, I think they're going to have to turn off the news. Because it's not just one day, today's news day, that you have to avoid. There'll be a number of days that you just have to say, you know, I need to surround myself with my family and my friends to deal with this. Because there'll be a barrage. Because it happened to us every anniversary of Columbine. You felt that pressure of the media and the family and friends wanting to help. And sometimes they could help, and other times you just want to be left alone. You have to let them make that decision if they want to be alone or not. Respect it.
LEMON: Rich?
HARWOOD: You know, Don, I think as this first year comes up, the community decided that there'll be no official ceremony to mark the anniversary of the massacre. I know that a lot of the families have decided to leave town on the days leading up to December 14th. Each person heals on their own calendar in their own ways. And I think what people need right now is a sense of space, to not be inundated by journalists and by people sort of looking in on them.
And as Tom said, I think what becomes really important for anyone who goes through anything like this is to keep loved ones close by, to reach out to them, to reach out to professional help if you need it, and to try to just put one foot in front of the other and get through another day.
LEMON: And I need to say that CNN will not be there in Newtown on the anniversary. We're going to honor the people there by not showing up in Sandy Hook in Newtown, at Sandy Hook in Newtown on the anniversary on the 14th.
Thank you both. Thank you, Tom Mauser and Rich Harwood.
MAUSER: Thanks.
LEMON: The 911 tapes are chilling and disturbing, but does that mean we shouldn't listen to them? Or is there an important lesson to be learned, one that could save lives? We're going to debate that in a minute with Brian Salter and Jeffrey Toobin, and also Dr. Judy Ho.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. This is THE 11TH HOUR.
The Sandy Hook 911 tapes are out nearly a year later. They're chilling and they make us remember a day that we wish had never happened, but it did. And is that all the more reason to hear them?
With me tonight, the host of "Reliable Sources," Brian Salter; CNN's senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin; and psychologist, Judy Ho.
Jeffrey, I'm going to start with you.
It did happen. Is that all the more reason to hear them?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, certainly, is the reason why the judge was correct to release them. I think that's a very important initial point, that under Connecticut law, 911 tapes become public. And these 911 tapes should be treated like every other.
Also, this was a major event in American history, the biggest mass murder since 9/11. And it had big implications politically, socially around the country. So the idea that the public should have access to information about it is a good one.
I think the question of whether we should broadcast it, whether we should use it on the air, is a closer one. But I do think the judge was certainly right to put the information out where it belongs and let people decide. Let journalists and other people decide whether they want to listen.
LEMON: So they should have been released, right?
TOOBIN: Yes. Oh, certainly, they should have been released to the public. How and whether we should have used them here on CNN, that's a harder question.
LEMON: So, Brian, what's your take on this? Even it needed to be released legally, do you think that it's newsworthy and that the news media should broadcast them?
BRIAN SALTER, HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: The debate that Jeffrey's describing is the debate that's happened at every news room across the country today, including here at CNN. How much of these tapes is newsworthy and how much of it is dredging up the past?
I do believe the tapes were very newsworthy. I have to admit I didn't want to listen to them. I waited many hours today because I didn't want to hear it. Hearing it on your show just now reminded me what's so painful about these tapes that it was too late. By the time these phone calls were coming in, it was too late. I'm reminded of that when I hear the audio. I think that's one of the reasons why it's newsworthy, because it is a potent reminder that it was too late.
LEMON: Brian, if you were in charge, would you have released them?
SALTER: I think they absolutely should have been released. Journalists, like me and you, we almost always err on the side of transparency.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I mean, as a journalist, would you have played them on the air?
SALTER: Played them on the air? I actually think that the decision that CNN and CBS made, and FOX News made today was the right decision, play excerpts but not play the whole thing. Listen, if you want to find the audio where you hear the gun shots, it's on the Internet. Millions of people have heard it today. NBC and ABC decided not to broadcast any of the audio. But I think these other networks were right to air some of the excerpts because of the newsworthy nature of it all.
LEMON: I want to ask Jeffrey Toobin -- Jeffrey, if you were in charge, would you have released them?
TOOBIN: You mean use them on CNN or released them to the public?
LEMON: Played them on CNN, yes.
TOOBIN: I think I've sort of changed my mind over the course of the day. When I first listened to them, I listened to them on the web. And I listened to all of them. And I thought, you know, it didn't really add anything. I probably would have said, no, don't broadcast them. But when I heard Deb Feyerick's story, when she edited them down and put them in context, I thought they were newsworthy. The cool competence of the 911 operators, the very impressive performance of the custodian, the courage of the woman who was shot in the foot as she was on the air -- as she was on the phone, I did think that was newsworthy. And I think CNN handled it the right way.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTER: I remind you, by the way, that this is the value of old- fashioned reporting. It doesn't hurt to take a few hours, listen to the tapes and put it in context.
LEMON: Yeah.
And, Judy, listen, Doctor, we're going to get you into this segment in a little bit later on as well. Don't just think you're sitting there doing nothing.
But I want to talk about, interestingly enough, the families are divided on this and whether or not the tapes should be released.
I'm going to put up a full screen now to one of the comments from "The Connecticut Post" that the principal, Dawn Hochsprung, made from the shooting. She said, "I'd rather have more information about what happened that day." She said, "The more information I have, the easier it is to wrap my brain around it."
And on the other side, Dean Pinto, whose 6-year-old son, Jack, died in the shooting, he argued strongly against the release. He says, "While our Freedom of Information laws may have been adequate in a world where only the mainstream media disseminated information, that is simply no longer the case." He wrote to the Task Force on Victim Privacy. He said, "Today, anyone with a computer can have a broader audience than your local newspaper, and decency and discretion seem to be unrecognizable concepts."
What do you make of that? Do you think they should have been released?
DR. JULIE HO, CLINICAL AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Don, I understand the legal issue here and why they should have been released from that aspect. But, no, I don't think they should be released because of the way the media is today. Just like that last gentleman's comment about it, there are computers everywhere. Even if you have parental control, kids can get past that and listen to these tapes themselves.
I think you presented two very different perspectives of how people heal and what kind of information they need to take care of the problem. But indirect exposure your, when something doesn't happen to you, can cause symptoms of trauma, can cause post-traumatic stress disorder. There was a study done last year about 911 dispatchers and how they have an elevated rate of post-traumatic stress disorder just from listening to the sounds of distress and imagining what the scene might be like and feeling helpless about it. They're in these important roles, but they don't actually have an active role of stopping it. They're in charge of dispatching people, but they themselves can't do anything about it.
That's how I feel about the general public. They're going to listen to these tapes and feel that helpless feeling that they can't do anything to stop this trauma and they might replay it over and over in their minds. That's the start of post-traumatic stress disorder.
LEMON: I'll ask all of you to stand by because the disagreement over releasing these tapes, nothing new. Remember the "Challenger" explosion? The planes on 9/11 hitting the World Trade Center or the video of people jumping? Who decides what we can see and when?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. This is THE 11TH HOUR.
We're talking about those chilling Sandy Hook 911 tapes and we're debating whether you should be able to listen to them.
Back with me is Brian Salter, Jeffrey Toobin and Dr. Judy Ho.
Brian, we struggled with this after almost every big tragedy until we don't struggle with it any more. We just saw the anniversary of JFK's death. We show the video of him being assassinated. We show Lee Harvey Oswald as well. Where do we draw the line here? When do we decide that it's OK to start playing tapes and showing video?
SALTER: Unfortunately, some of those videos -- and the JFK assassination is, fortunately, a wonderful example of this -- it becomes like wallpaper. I think we saw this after 9/11 as well. Some of the scenes of the towers falling became replayed so often they were like wallpaper. They actually may desensitize people over time. That is not the intent. And I think that's not a good thing. But I do err on the side of wanting to show people more rather than less. With warning labels, with viewer discretion advisories, I err on the side of wanting to show people more rather than less to let them see, unfortunately, the horrors that are out there in the world sometimes.
LEMON: I'm not sure if you heard Tom Mauser, whose son was killed in Columbine. I said, what's your advice for these families for the anniversary, and they said, turn off the television, don't watch the news.
SALTER: And that applies to all of us if we're uncomfortable with --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: So how do we cover the anniversary then, Brian?
SALTER: I think CNN and others are making the right decision to not be in Newtown that day. After all, to stand there on a soccer field is really just using Newtown as a backdrop. The anniversary can be covered more effectively outside Newtown that day. But the anniversary should be covered. People should be reminded of what happened last year.
But as you pointed out, viewers and certainly Newtown community members can and maybe should in that case turn off the TV for a day. That's not the worst thing in the world.
LEMON: Judy, what about this, when showing the images and hearing things, does this inspire a copycat?
HO: Absolutely. We definitely have evidence of that when we look at past traumatic events. And so sometimes when we have these anniversaries when they're meant to honor the victims, people actually use that as an opportunity to terrorize further and to use copycat- types of methods. That's one thing I worry about when we think about anniversaries.
TOOBIN: Wait a second. I don't think that's true. I'm not aware of those sorts of copycats. I don't see someone else shooting up schools.
I mean, look, the news media has a lot to defend itself about. And we are far from perfect. But the idea that we are somehow inspiring copy cats, I think, is just factually wrong. And also it's just not true.
LEMON: But you heard Adam Lanza's family and his friends saying that he was obsessed with Columbine. And I'm sure he probably heard a lot about Columbine, Jeffrey, from the news media.
TOOBIN: Of course. He was insane. He was insane.
HO: Right, and there are people who are insane out there.
TOOBIN: That's right. There are people who are insane. So we're supposed to pitch our news to the insane viewer? We're supposed to cover the news.
HO: No. Absolutely not.
LEMON: Jeffrey, I've got a short amount of time here. What do we do? Where do we draw the line? Because there are people who are wanting the pictures now from Newtown to be released in hopes that maybe that they would help with gun legislation.
TOOBIN: Well, I certainly don't think that gruesome pictures of children who have been shot should be disclosed. There's no reason for that.
And I think ultimately this has to be left up to journalists. The alternative is leaving it up to the government.
LEMON: Yes.
TOOBIN: And I just don't think that's an acceptable resolution.
LEMON: Jeffry, Brian, Dr. Judy, thank you very much. I appreciate all of you tonight.
This conversation is going to keep going on at CNN in the days ahead. Now I want to thank again, thanks to my guests.
I also want to tell you that Brian's new show, "New Reliable Sources," is going to premiere Monday -- Sunday -- want to get that right -- morning at 11:00 eastern. Sunday morning at 11:00 eastern.
And imagine trying to live on what you make at Walmart or any other place like a fast-food place like McDonald's or Burger King. You probably couldn't. But are you willing to pay the price for giving everybody a living wage? That's going to be Monday, Monday, right here on THE 11TH HOUR.
That's it for us tonight. Brooke Baldwin in "In Case You Missed It" starts right now.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Welcome to our new program. It's called "ICYMI." Our mission here is to comb through every single story CNN has been covering all day all over the world to bring you the very best moments of what we do. They happen just a few times each and every day in power interviews, dramatic video.
