Return to Transcripts main page
Murdered for Loud Music?
Aired February 6, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINKSY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, an unarmed black teenager shot dead by a white man for loud music. Was this murder? Self- defense? Or a hate crime? Ms. Ali and Frank Taaffe and they are fired up.
Plus, the rich kid who killed four people and got away with it. New outrage as he avoids jail again.
And we put you in the driver`s seat as cops chase down a gunman.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody. My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.
And, Jenny, I am not Chris Brady. I have a terrible bronchitis from sitting in front of cameras far too long doing breaking news.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Clearly.
PINSKY: So I apologize to the audience. You are going to have to help me to wrangle these panels tonight because --
HUTT: Happy to do it.
PINSKY: We`ve got an interesting group and I don`t know about my voice. So, we`ll see what happens.
Coming up --
HUTT: Do you have hot tea?
PINSKY: I`ve got tea galore, believe me. Giant cups of all kinds of things here to try to get through this.
I`m not feeling so bad at the moment, but I felt bad all day.
But I want to have a good show. So let`s get to this.
Coming up, a police shoot-out from a lapel cam, you`ll see it here.
But first, a Caucasian, a white man is charged with murdering a black teenager after they got into an argument over loud music. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It began with a fight over loud music. Police say he fired four shots into the SUV Davis was in.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, AUTHOR: These were young people in that car. Had that been four grown black men, he would have never showed up and did any of that.
MICHAEL DUNN, SUSPECT: I saw a barrel come up on the window, like a single shot shotgun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Saying he feared for his safety, Dunn retrieved his gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to hear, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four terrified teenagers began an ominous roll call. Everybody responded to the sound of their name except Jordan Davis.
PINSKY: Joining us, Segun Oduolowu, social commentator, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Miss Shahrazad Ali, social commentator, and author of "The Blackwoman`s guide to Understanding the Blackman", and Jason Ellis, host of "The Jason Ellis Show" on Sirius XM. He`s also an author of "The Awesome Guide to Life", and by the way, Jason, I love you in those glasses tonight. We have a convention here. We have night time cast, Lynn Berry, you, everyone wants to wear glasses at night time."
Segun, you guys ought to pick that up. First of all, I`ve got Anne Schindler from "First Coast News". She has the latest. There were no cameras on the jurors, Anne, but you actually saw them. What did you see?
ANNE SCHINDLER, FIRST COAST NEWS (via telephone): That`s right, Dr. Drew. Today jurors paid close attention during opening statements which are very intense and very different in tone. There are 16 in the pool, 10 women, 6 men. Three of the women are African-American and five are white, five of the men are white, and there`s one Hispanic man. Ultimately, 12 of them will decide whether Michael Dunn feared for his life or whether he`s guilty of murder -- Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Wow, interesting. Thanks, Anne.
OK, Ms. Ali, Dunn described these kids as thugs and the music as thug music. What do you say?
ALI: Well, you know, that`s the new code word. A few years ago, Reverend Al Sharpton, I believe he buried the "N" word and was trying to teach us not to use that on each other, not to call each other that, not to use it in rap music and everything. But that has become the new code word to call black men thugs, which is just saying another word for the "N" word.
It`s unfortunate that this has happened and that we`re getting ready to almost have our instant replay of what we`ve already been through on this. And that saddens me another black mother has got to grieve the killing of her child by someone outside of his race and who she can`t do anything about. They may as well pick the same jury they had with Zimmerman.
PINSKY: Well, Segun --
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Well, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: -- my understanding is this young man`s mother was hoping that race did not come into play.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, you know, Dr. Drew, to be honest with you --
ALI: That`s whatever slaves say.
ODUOLOWU: I would like to focus on the fact that the law is inadequate. I think that the law allows people who are not trained in crisis situations to carry guns. Now, we can argue color if we want to, but at the end of the day, there`s a kid who was murdered, and I find it just appalling that this law is on the books and people that are not trained --
PINSKY: You`re talking about stand your ground.
ODUOLOWU: -- are carrying firearms.
Yes, the stand your ground law.
ALI: Now we know why they got you on here.
PINSKY: What do you mean, Ms. Ali? What do you mean?
ALI: Well, that is the old slavery time answer to keep saying is it has nothing to do with race. Everything has something to do with color.
SEDAGHATFAR: Oh, my gosh.
ALI: We pick how we dress, we pick our food, we pick the weather, we pick everything off color. So, why do all keep pretending we don`t make judgments about people about color?
PINSKY: All right. Hold on, Anahita, I`m going to get to you in a second. I want to get to Jason, who`s -- you`re from Australia. Do you have a different perspective? Can you understand what Ms. Ali is talking about?
JASON ELLIS, RADIO HOST: I know I look scary, but I don`t think that the race thing should come into play. I feel like if a guy says to a bunch of people playing loud music, turn your music down, you`re already asking for it.
I`m a tough guy. I can beat up people if I want to, but I would never tell someone to turn their music down unless I wanted trouble.
So, I think he wanted the drama. I don`t think it matters what color the kids are. I think it just -- that guy, is who shoots people? You don`t tell people to turn music down. You know that`s an altercation. You wanted one.
SEDAGHATFAR: Oh, my gosh, Dr. Drew.
ALI: I think you all are living in some kind of altered universe.
PINSKY: Anahita, I like what Jason said. The guy was looking for trouble. Does he have a defense? Is self-defense plausible?
SEDAGHATFAR: I think he has a plausible self-defense argument here, Dr. Drew. I actually also think that those who are comparing this case to the George Zimmerman case are so misguided.
I think that this is going to be a tougher defense and the reason because in the Zimmerman case the forensic evidence, the physical evidence totally corroborated Zimmerman`s version of events that he was being attacked and beat up by Trayvon Martin. He had injuries to his face, to his head.
ALI: Oh, please.
SEDAGHATFAR: I predicted the acquittal because of that, excuse me, Ms. Ali. This case however, there are no injury --
ALI: -- on the same reasons.
PINSKY: So wait a minute. So, Anahita, you`re saying this guy`s going to get found guilty in your opinion, is that right?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I`m saying I think it`s too soon for all of us, any of us to judge because it was just opening statements today. I think he has plausible argument. If he can convince the jurors that he feared for his life, there were four teenagers in that car. He`s one man.
If he can convince the jurors they were threatening his life, if he can convince those jurors that he feared grave bodily injury, remember, it doesn`t even have to be death, Dr. Drew, just that he feared bodily injury.
PINSKY: OK. All right. Miss Ali.
SEDAGHATFAR: He can be acquitted of self defense.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali is trying to talk. Go ahead.
ALI: See, this is what happens. When we go to these trials and black men are involved, two things have to take place. First, the defense attorney has to dehumanize the victim and make sure that the jury understands that these are some kind of a threatening, dangerous people.
And, secondly, he has to do what you all charge me with. He has to race-bait the jury and bring up their greatest fears of whatever they heard about black men. Black men have been in this country over 400 years being called boy, but every time they do something, then they become a man. These were four children in this car, teenagers and there`s no parent in America --
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s a tragedy. It is a tragedy.
ALI: -- that calls him a man.
PINSKY: I love the look of incredulity on Jason`s face. I want to get -- I want to get from Jason first because he has the look of disbelief. Go ahead.
ELLIS: Do you really have to -- I mean, I just to, you know, she seems like a nice lady, but I don`t know. I just think that the race thing it`s over the top and unnecessary. The guy shot four kids. Who cares what color they are?
HUTT: He did.
ELLIS: Cares about the race thing. It`s too much. Like all you`re about --
ALI: I care. A lot of people care.
PINSKY: What`s that Anahita?
ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew --
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, it is not dehumanizing the victim. Ms. Ali, I think you`re putting a very negative connotation. If you`re arguing self- defense, you have to show that the defendant feared the victim, right? So you have to show that he wasn`t this gentle, kind, sweet guy. You have to show those jurors that he did something --
PINSKY: In a way, Ms. Ali`s right then, Anahita.
PINSKY: Segun, go ahead.
ALI: That is right. That`s what`s going to happen.
ODUOLOWU: At the end of the day, Dr. Drew, a grown man killed four kids. So regardless of color, the law that allows him to do that needs to be changed or needs to be looked at.
ALI: You don`t even know --
ODUOLOWU: Those types of things are going to happen. >
ELLIS: There you go, I like that guy.
PINSKY: Jenny, finish up.
ALI: Of course, he wants you to like him.
HUTT: He killed one kid, number one, and number two, the problem is he could have driven away. That`s why I go to Ms. Ali here and agree with her completely. Because he saw the car, engaged them, he knew who he was looking at and he didn`t drive away, he engaged, and then he shot.
PINSKY: That`s Jason`s point.
SEDAGHATFAR: You have a right the stand your ground, though.
PINSKY: -- to cause trouble.
All right. Listen --
PINSKY: Thank you, Jason, you look sexy, too. I`m glad I sound sexy.
PINSKY: All right. Ms. Ali, you hold on. We`re going to get the behavior bureau in here. They`re going to mix it up. Ms. Ali, I want you watch what the behavior bureau says and we`ll bring back her old friend Frank Taaffe who has always had choice things to say to me.
Coming up, did the rich kid who drove drunk and killed people dodge a prison sentence by using the affluenza defense?
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jordan Davis was upset, no doubt. He was cussing, no doubt. But he never threatened the defendant, he disrespected the defendant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only person that cursed was Jordan Davis. The first words Jordan Davis says (EXPLETIVE DELETED) turn it back up, or I`m going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you. I should kill you right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, we`re talking about Jordan Davis, an unarmed black teenager killed by the middle aged man you see on the screen there, Michael Dunn.
I want to show a tweet real quick, Jenny. It is about Ms. Ali. She seems to generate a tweet. Ms. Ali may be radical but she`s often right about racism. We hear that a lot on our Twitter feed. Jenny, you were going to read a statement.
HUTT: Yes, that`s right. So, in a letter to a local TV station, Michael Dunn wrote the following. "When Mr. Davis opened his door and said, you`re dead, blank, this blank is going down now, I had no choice but to defend myself. I`m not a murderer, I`m a survivor."
So, is he a survivor, Dr. Drew? Will the jury see him that way?
PINSKY: Well. let`s let the behavior bureau chew on this a little bit.
We got Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, and Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".
And before we continue, I want to apologize to the audience. I`ve got this terrible bronchitis. I`m struggling with my voice.
But, ladies, Jason Ellis thinks I sound sexy. So, I`m think I`m going to --
HUTT: Superhot, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Superhot to have a sick host.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s working for you.
PINSKY: Too many days in front of cameras doing breaking news, I`m telling you. But here we go.
All right. So, who has a reaction to Ms. Ali? Leeann?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, I think she does talk about race a lot, obviously, when she`s on your show. You know, this case is tragic. A guy killed a young man. We don`t know for sure if the guy did do all those threatening things. I mean, we read a lot of different things that seem to be competing with each other, but what I found disturbing is when I was researching this story, is that he was writing letters that got released out of prison.
I think he wrote his daughter and said, you know, I hope this hurries up. Can we hurry up this process? It`s taking too long. I just can`t wait to get home, and get home to the dog, as if he doesn`t think he did anything wrong at all. And that to me is a little bit disturbing.
PINSKY: That is, but then again, maybe that was innocent enough, I don`t know. Cheryl, I want you to address this. There`s a lot of psychological talk out there about the subtle effects of race. Even African-Americans have an effect of race, we all do.
Do you think it had a role to play in this case?
ARUTT: I think it did have a role to play in this case. I think we should notice that it`s always the white people who want to not notice race and pretend everybody`s the same. It`s always the people of color who are saying, hey, wait a second, the rules have been stacked against us in some way. We really are treated differently. And I think that even the problem with the law is that even if he really was truly afraid of these teenaged kids because of racist stereotypes that he held, seems that Florida law will get him off. And that`s really upsetting.
PINSKY: That`s upsetting. Wendy, same question to you.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I think the problem here is -- I think he may have felt threatened just by the very presence of a bunch of black teenagers, this is sad to say. And I think that his sort of fight or flight reflexes went into play when they shouldn`t have. Keep in mind, he approached the teens, not in reverse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.
WALSH: He provoked it. He began -- and by the way, they`re both parked at a gas station pumping gas. What could have topped him from just getting in his car and driving off?
That`s what Jason Ellis said in the last segment. He`s a guy that knows when people are looking for trouble and he`s been in a little bit himself.
But, Sam, I want to ask you this. I think a lot about the stuff Ms. Ali says, do you think she`s anachronistic, do you think she`s representing a different era?
SAM SCHACHER, YOUNG TURKS: Well, OK, it`s so tough when it comes to this, Dr. Drew, because I think with this particular case, I think that Ms. Ali is spot on. I do think that Ms. Ali -- and it`s so hard from a white person saying this because, Dr. Drew, I`m sorry, I don`t have the history that she and her ancestors do, I haven`t been the one that has been called names and been enslaved.
So, it`s tough for me to even have this conversation without feeling like I shouldn`t even really go there.
PINSKY: But people are saying --
SCHACHER: To have more of a forward thinking.
PINSKY: Yes, OK. Social media people saying that by bringing it in here we`re inflaming racial tensions. That`s the criticism of Ms. Ali.
SCHACHER: But this case is about race, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Well, that`s what we`re trying to determine.
SCHACHER: It is about race. Look at his letters that he`s written in jail. I wouldn`t call this man a racist like I did last night if I didn`t thoroughly research the case and see how racial and prejudiced his letters were. I do think he`s a racist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unbelievable.
SCHACHER: Those teenagers if they were white.
PINSKY: I want to show you the tape. Michael Dunn tells police in hindsight he should have acted differently. And, Wendy, he brings up this fight or flight response issue you mentioned. I`m going to have you comment after we watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL DUNN, SUSPECT: So I -- went over this a million times. And what I should have done is put the car in reverse, but a shotgun come up, whatever, it was fight or flight. I don`t think there was any time for flight at that moment, because I was going to get shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wendy, so, he`s saying it was fight or flight. He responded as he did. But he shot eight times. And then what about his behavior later in the day when he was just having pizza with his wife, where is his adrenaline response to that?
WALSH: Yes, and his girlfriend. His girlfriend.
So let me bring another piece into it, because you know, Dr. Drew, I always have to bring attachment and relationships into it in some way.
WALSH: Remember, he wasn`t even from this place. He was visiting it because he was going to his son`s wed. Now, weddings can bring all types of emotions up with people. Maybe he was feeling the loss of his son, maybe he was angry with his son, I don`t know what was going on in the family dynamics. But maybe these young men in the car triggered something in him to do whatever attachment anxiety he might have had surrounding this wedding, the fact this he wasn`t staying at family home or a home with a relative. He was at a hotel.
You know, when you go to a wedding of your own child, there`s no one open the doors to you?
PINSKY: Wedding craziness, we all know that. Jenny, you want to talk about --
HUTT: I just -- I want to just say that here`s why it`s a race issue to me, Dr. Drew. If the boys had been playing and blaring the Beach Boys, this would not have gone down.
HUTT: But the type of music they were playing was culturally the black community and it was hip-hop and these were black kids.
PINSKY: Cheryl, you`re nodding your head -- Cheryl.
ARUTT: I need to get back to the letters. Because I read something in another letter he wrote to his girlfriend saying, hey, I got a new roommate in prison and this is a white guy who they say is suicidal. And I`m thinking of suggesting that a good way to kill himself is to tell a group of black kids to turn down the music, but I don`t think I`ll get the laugh that I`m going for.
ARUTT: This is a colossal lack of sensitivity, and I don`t think he gets what he`s done here at all.
PINSKY: OK, Leeann, finish it up.
TWEEDEN: Well, you know, I just feel like he pulled up next to these guys, confrontational. It`s like he wanted to get into a fight. I saw a gun, but he`s not sure if he did. I don`t know if he`s lying about that, which he very well could be for his own defense, just trying to say that, oh, it was fight or flight. I saw a gun, but we don`t know that for sure because they never found one in the truck.
But when he started shooting, he shot eight times then took off and left and called later to the cops. Obviously, he was out to kill somebody. And I think he was out to kill those kids that night because he was ready for a fight. He`s angry and he thought he could get away with it.
PINSKY: All right. Well, we`re -- a lot of diverse opinions here. So, thank you, panel.
What we`re going to do is bring back Ms. Ali and her favorite nemesis, Frank Taaffe. Frank Taaffe, welcome back to the program.
We`ll have the two of them fight this out after the break.
FRANK TAAFFE: You all need to jump on the Taaffe train.
ALI: I`m glad we have Frank on here. We need people like Frank on television so that a lot of my people can see that they`re not paranoid unjustifiably. This type of white man does exist.
TAAFFE: Let me finish.
ALI: No, let`s talk about --
TAAFFE: Are you going to yak or do you want me to talk?
PINSKY: No, I`m going to talk about how we assess one another -- I will, trust me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that a date between these two is a horrible idea.
PINSKY: How dare you?
PINSKY: After watching that with my bronchitis tonight, I wonder how I`m going to referee this event.
PINSKY: Jenny, I appreciate it.
HUTT: Right there.
PINSKY: We`re back and joining us Frank Taaffe. He is a friend and vocal supporter of George Zimmerman.
Frank, I hope you`ll be good to us tonight because I`ve got like three pistons firing. But last night, Frank, you were looking to seeing Ms. Ali. I`ve got a tweet of yours from last fight. Dr. Drew, your people haven`t read of the facts and forensic in this case. Ms. Ali, are you still coming to dinner?
So, we thought, all right, Frank, let`s bring you back. But I`ve just got to compare how you were last night to a few weeks ago when you posted this on our Facebook page. Dr. Drew is a blank, I would never do that Dr. Drew show again. Says I`m a racist and puts Ms. Ali on."
But, Frank, here we are back with you. Welcome back, my friend.
TAAFFE: Hey, man, I`m showing the love, Dr. Drew. I`m going to show the love tonight. Miss Ali --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Frank.
TAAFFE: Ms. Ali, I believe what you`re suffering from is called cognitive dissonance. That`s when your beliefs don`t match up with reality. I finally figured it out. You what, Ms. Ali, you talk about the white man being the devil -- well, here`s a fact. I want to only discuss the facts in the Michael Dunn case and particularly about crime in America.
According to the FBI, and the U.S. Department of Justice, African- Americans make up 12 percent of the population, yet they commit the most disproportionate amount of violent crimes. Over 60 percent of the murders --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, they get convicted.
TAAFFE: -- were convicted by African-Americans. And 32 percent were under the age of 18.
So, when Michael Dunn pulled into that gas station, you know, you wonder why we have these premonitions, we see --
PINSKY: We call it a bias, though, Frank.
TAAFFE: A bias? These are facts, Dr. Drew, the FBI just didn`t -- I would like to hear her.
ALI: That`s not a -- those are not facts. Those are not facts, Frank.
TAAFFE: Yes, they are.
ALI: Those are not facts. Your people.
TAAFFE: Those are facts, look it up.
ALI: Your people have been killing my people for 500 years. Every time it happens, you blame us and you say that it`s done by persons and people of unknown. That`s what you want to believe.
TAAFFE: You know what? I watched you last night. I have to give you a nod. You did say that there were no signs that said no noise or anything like that. No, it`s all about respect. OK?
ALI: Oh, come on.
TAAFFE: You want us to respect you.
ALI: That`s right.
TAAFFE: All Michael Dunn asked was those young boys to turn down the music.
ALI: I keep telling y`all, this is the same thing.
TAAFFE: Which was it provoked? I want to know. Answer the question. How is that provoking and escalating into a young boy losing his life? It`s about respect. Trayvon --
ALI: Tell me, I have a question. Frank, I have question for you. I have a question. No, I want to ask a question.
ALI: If he -- listen, Dr. Drew, he said that he was in the car and the music was blaring and he heard them saying and make a derogatory remark about him and he rolled his window down and said, hey, you talking to me?
Well, how could he hear what comment over the music and with his window up? That doesn`t make any sense. But nobody is going to bring that up.
TAAFFE: Why don`t you read the discovery? Do yourself a favor and read the discovery and then we`ll talk again. OK? Before you talking out the back of your hat. You`re talking out to your hat again.
HUTT: Dr. Drew can`t scream!
PINSKY: I want to get the rest of my panel involved.
Wendy, you look stricken. Go ahead.
WALSH: I am. Frank, with all due respect, darling, some of those stats are not quite accurate. It is --
TAAFFE: Excuse me, I just looked them up.
WALSH: It is that more African-Americans may serve jail time.
TAAFFE: Look it up. I`d just looked them up. Google it. Google it.
WALSH: I`d love to hear your source, doll face. Listen --
ALI: That doesn`t mean it`s true.
WALSH: What I want you both to understand -- am I going to get to talk, Dr. Drew? Can you shut him up?
PINSKY: For all the nights for me to be unable to sound like (INAUDIBLE). So go ahead.
WALSH: OK. To Miss Ali and to Frank, I want to tell you that when you know somebody`s race, you know about as much about their personality as their shoe size.
WALSH: OK. Within every race, within every culture, you`re going to have a wide socioeconomic status. You`re going to have a wide range of personality types.
WALSH: And to ever make any generalization about any race is wrong.
PINSKY: Hang on.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Hang on. Let Dr. Drew speak.
WALSH: I am in my home, Miss Ali. I have more Black people living in my home than White people. I am outnumbered.
PINSKY: Wendy, listen. But Frank made a really interesting point. He said -- at one time on this show, Miss Ali says, she needs to get cognitive behavioral therapy. And Frank tonight said she has cognitive dissonance. I think two of those things are true. Do you agree?
WALSH: Well, no, actually, the true definition of cognitive dissonance -- his definition was that her thoughts don`t match reality. Cognitive dissonance is when you have two conflicting thoughts at the same time in your own head.
PINSKY: All right. So, it`s not quite right.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I just wish in this situation he just would have not confronted them at all, didn`t roll down his window, didn`t approach them and say turn down your music, just back up and pull away. He obviously wanted to be confrontational. Maybe he was angry, maybe he was feeling some different emotions because of his son`s wedding. He was out of his element.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: They are always the aggressor. They`re always the aggressor.
TWEEDEN: Right. But Miss Ali, when Frank was speaking to you, you were rolling your eyes and not even looking at him. So, how can we have a good conversation between each other if we don`t even respect each other?
ALI: Well, I can`t see him anyway.
HUTT: I`m letting you speak. I was trying to get you to speak. Go ahead.
PINSKY: Frank, it`s clear this is not going to go anywhere. Frank, I`ve got a question for you. What is with Zimmerman and his boxing match thing? What is that all about? What is that?
TAAFFE: He invited DMX. He`s raising money which he`s not going to get any proceeds for. And I think, personally, I don`t think it`s a good idea.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
TAAFFE: I think he ought to do something safe like --
ALI: It`s especially not a good idea because he said he can`t fight.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s leave this here. I need to take some hot tea so I can get to the next segment and survive this night. Thank you, guys. Frank, I do appreciate you coming back to be on the show in spite of your ambivalent feelings about us. And just know, we welcome you here and we appreciate the fact that you bring interesting points of view. And Miss Ali --
PINSKY: -- you as well.
ALI: I don`t.
PINSKY: Well, I know you guys don`t like each other. That`s OK.
ALI: It`s not that I don`t like him.
TAAFFE: Show me the love.
PINSKY: What is it, Miss Ali, then?
ALI: I said it`s not that I don`t like him. He just represents an idea that ends up killing us and having us die. That`s what I`m saying. It`s not that I don`t like him. He`s like a whole bunch of White men out there.
TAAFFE: You and I need to do a PSA together and let`s stem the violence. Stop the violence.
PINSKY: Listen, I love that idea. Let`s leave it at that.
HUTT: We need to go to break, Dr. Drew says.
PINSKY: Stop it, stop it, stop it. OK.
HUTT: Go ahead.
PINSKY: We`re going to talk now about the affluenza kid. This is actually more disturbing to me. This kid is getting treatment instead of prison. Is it because he`s rich and he`s White?
And later, a police shootout we have caught on a lapel cam. We`re going to bring you into this thing. It`s quite striking. We`ll be back right after this.
PINSKY (voice-over): A teen who killed four people while driving drunk is set free.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The teen only received ten years of probation for an act so reckless.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The judge is calling his case affluenza.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lifestyle where wealth brought privilege and there were no consequences for bad behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever heard of affluenza as a defense?
PINSKY (on-camera): No. It`s disgusting. It`s disgusting. There`s no such term.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You cannot just take four lives and say to hell with them. Excuse my language. I`m sorry, that is not right!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s shameful. The law profession as a whole should collectively throw up in a bucket.
PINSKY: Segun bringing it home there, Jenny.
PINSKY: We`ll get to that topic in just a second. People are still reacting to the Miss Ali/Taaffe battle there. As Ringo Starr says on Howard Stern, peace and love, peace and love, everybody. With peace and love that we want to go forward here. And here`s somebody giving me some advice to try to get me through the night. Sheila Scott wants to tell me what kind of tea to drink and how to prepare it. So, Sheila, thank you. I am preparing my tea.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s bring in our panel, Segun, Anahita, Jason, and Sam. The affluenza teen learned today that he will spend no time in jail. Instead, a Texas judge ordered him to a treatment facility but did not require -- we could not find in the judgment specific requirements for stay or meeting the criteria for treatment.
Segun, you left us off with that very rich statement at the end of the bump. What do you say today?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, you know, maybe this will be the one time that I agree with Miss Ali, it`s all about color and the color is green. The person with the most money, they got the best lawyers. They paid for a decision that is -- smacks the face of justice, sets the justice system back.
I mean, it`s just -- it`s an ugly, ugly verdict. I don`t think justice was served. And like I said, the only color that mattered here was green.
PINSKY: Peace and love, peace and love, Anahita. It`s those damned defense attorneys.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it`s not. Stop blaming the defense attorney, Dr. Drew. I`m a defense attorney and I am totally outraged by --
JASON ELLIS, @ELLISMATE: You`re the hottest defense attorney that ever lived.
ELLIS: Oh, my goodness.
ELLIS: The hottest defense attorney that has ever lived. Defend me, please, whenever you want to.
SEDAGHATFAR: Oh, thank you. But like I was saying, I don`t think we can blame the defense attorneys because I am totally outraged, but I`m not shocked because this is the same judge that gave this kid no jail time on the manslaughter charges. So, obviously, she wasn`t going to give him jail time yesterday on the lower assault charges.
And it`s like, first of all, also, Dr. Drew, this is not a defense. There is no such thing as affluenza defense. That is a total misnomer.
PINSKY: Also there`s no such thing, there`s no diagnostic category, affluenza.
PINSKY: It doesn`t exist. It`s a construct. It`s a syndrome that one woman described in a book about people with lots of money and the way they behave.
ODUOLOWU: But it`s on the books now.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. So, if the idea of it is that, OK, he was so rich, he was so spoiled, he never learned consequences for his actions, he didn`t know the difference between right from wrong, well then, why didn`t this judge do exactly what his parents didn`t do? She`s perpetuating that cycle.
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s absolutely illogical. And I don`t blame the defense attorneys. I actually blame the judge. And you know --
HUTT: That`s right.
SEDAGHATFAR: -- I am so reluctant to critique judges.
PINSKY: My understanding, by the way, this judge has a very good track record and is not unsophisticated person. But Jason, you have a very personal story about this. You want to share that with us?
ELLIS: About my brother, you mean?
ELLIS: Well, you know, my brother, he passed away from another accident that had to do -- actually had to do he was in a drink driving accident. He had a couple of drinks and he went across the road and hit somebody else and hit a taxi and one of the people in the taxi died. He went to court and he went to jail. And nobody -- he -- however long the person, the courts say he goes to jail, that`s how long he goes.
And we all felt terrible. I wasn`t in the car. I was over here. But, we all felt -- he never recovered from it. It ruined his life, but when he got sentenced, we`re like he get sentenced because that`s what you did. It`s your fault. To me, the easiest analogy is, I think, OK, so you`re rich and you had an easy life.
The easiest person I can think of is like Axl Rose. So, I believe that person has spent at least 30 years being somewhat of a full grown toddler. Can he murdered people and get away with it? I mean, he`s had an easy life. It doesn`t many any sense --
ODUOLOWU: -- if he has enough money to buy really good defense attorneys, he might be able to.
PINSKY: Maybe Justin Bieber does something terrible. You know, we`re sort of seeing him --
PINSKY: Should it be the same thing?
ELLIS: No. Everybody goes to jail for their crimes.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Right, of course. Obviously, this judge is either insane or this judge was paid off. I think it is the latter, because like you stated earlier, Dr. Drew, this judge does have a sophisticated history. So, it just doesn`t add up. It doesn`t make sense. And here`s the thing, at the end of the day, where is the justice for the victims and their families?
Four people were killed. Two people are seriously injured. There`s one -- one of the victims is paralyzed to the point where they have to communicate through blinking.
PINSKY: Segun, finish up. Segun --
PINSKY: We got to go.
ODUOLOWU: Dr. Drew, why are we so surprised that a verdict that we all find to be in just to fly in the face of justice and it has to do with money? I mean, our American court system, this typically happens. I mean, our outrage should be more to --
PINSKY: -- on another day, because I have to go. And Sam, the guy, the kid with the brain injury is actually worse off than somebody locked in - communicating with blinking. He`s worst off than that. It`s a disaster.
Next up, it looks like the movie --
ELLIS: Go to bed, Drew.
PINSKY: Thank you, Jason. I thought you said I sounded sexy? This is a shoot-out between cops and a bad guy. It`s the real thing. We will show you the lapel cam footage.
And later, what happens when 30 million people made you a laughing stock on social media for your behavior? He lost his job and he got the last laugh. He got rich. Back after this.
PINSKY: Jenny and I -- excuse me, this voice thing I`m fighting all night. Jenny and I are back with Sam Schacher there next to me and Sean Klitzner, actor and comedian. Sam and Sean are the co-host of the new game show "Debate Your Fate" on YouTube. Sam, Sean, well done. Well done, you guys. There it is. We can`t wait to see that.
And we welcome our social media stars, Cat Valdes. She`s a YouTube personality. There she is. She posts videos about pretty much anything that`s on her mind. There she goes. And I`ve got Meghan Camarena. Her videos cater to all the nerds out there like myself. There you are.
PINSKY: Thank you. Welcome, guys. We appreciate you come out to our program. Let`s first talk about a violent police shootout caught on the lapel cam. Take a look at this. While we`re watching this video, Megan, I`d like to give you the opportunity -- there we go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got an officer shot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Christopher Chase (ph) leading officers for 16 miles through the streets of Southeast Albuquerque in a stolen police car. He shoots at the officers with a semi-automatic weapon injuring three of them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officers ran to him and applied a tourniquet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you need help with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police shoot back at Chase from their cars.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An all-out gun battle breaks out. Chase is hit eight times and dies at the scene.
PINSKY: Megan, I want to go to you first. Do you think -- I`m thinking about what people are able to see now in social media and online as compared to what they see on the news. Are people going to become desensitized by all this? Do you think it`s a good thing that we just see everything online now or is there going to be some sort of containment of some of this?
MEGHAN CAMARENA, YOUTUBE.COM/STRAWBURRY17: For me, I don`t like watching this kind of stuff, but the fact that it`s out there and it`s available and even sometimes I don`t even like watching the news because the stuff is super disturbing, but it`s real. And it`s what`s happening. And I think in America, we are already starting to become desensitized -- I can`t even say that word. It`s happening to me, too.
PINSKY: But Cat, good thing or bad thing that we`re able to have access like we are? What do you think?
CAT VALDES, YOUTUBE.COM/CATRIFIC: I do think it`s a good thing that people are able to see that this is out there and that there are crazy people in the world that are doing things like this. If it`s hidden, then people just aren`t going to be aware and aren`t going to be safe and knowing that like, hey, don`t be like that crazy person you see on the internet. Like that`s bad.
SEAN KLITZNER, ACTOR & COMEDIAN: I think it`s crazy. I think it`s a horrible thing that it`s on the -- that everything -- it`s not just this. It`s everything you can think of. You can type in on the internet and find. And I think this guy specifically was, you know, something we can find every day in video games. You know, I can only hear the audio here. It sounded like GTA 5 and I think that`s what was happening.
PINSKY: But I see Cat smiling like, oh, Sean is so old.
VALDES: Well, I mean, my opinion is, if it`s out there, then people should know about it. And I guess, I`ve grown up with like being able to have access to seeing things like this all the time. And, I think it`s giving you awareness. Don`t be like that.
PINSKY: I see your point. And Meghan, your point is you cannot watch it. You can turn away.
CAMARENA: Yes. I just don`t want to see that. I`m well aware of what`s happening in the news and, you know, all over the world. These are just something I don`t like to see and I don`t like to give my time or my view count to praise this type of behavior even though if it does bring about awareness. Just not --
PINSKY: But I think, you know, Sam, she`s making a good point. She votes with her eyes. She votes with her clicks. That`s what determines what gets out there.
SCHACHER: I agree, but you know what scares me, Dr. Drew? When I watch this, I immediately felt like that I, what Sean had just said, was watching like Grand Theft Auto. And that scared me. I was like, Wow! Am I desensitized because I`ve seen so many video games and so many things on social media --
PINSKY: All right. Hold on, Sam. Hold on. We`re switching topics. We`re going to talk about the pain of public humiliation again through social media. It`s eased by money in this guy`s case. We`ll show you how one man got over his social media shame. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: I`m back with Jenny, Sam, Sean, Cat and Meghan. And Cat and Meghan, I wonder if you guys saw the Miss Ali/Frank Taaffe battle. Do you have any opinion about that? Cat?
VALDES: Uh, go ahead, Meghan.
CAMARENA: No, you go ahead, Cat.
VALDES: OK. Well, I will take it. I did see that -- I think that she did have a point, like, yes, I think racism did have a play in what took place. But I do not think that it`s something we should put the focus on in this case. It`s sad that this person died and we should be looking at like really like was this person threatened or not.
PINSKY: All right. Meghan, you agree?
CAMARENA: Yes, totally. I agree with Cat.
PINSKY: You guys come on this show, I`ll throw curveballs at you. We`re not necessarily going to talk about the stuff that I said we will talk about.
PINSKY: Let`s get on to what we told you we were discussing, which is a police officer in the U.K. who became an internet sensation much like YouTube when this video leaked online and racked up more than 3o million views. The officer runs up and beats on the window of this car with his baton. The driver had led them on a chase. The driver was an old man with a stroke. He was like in an altered mental state as he didn`t know what he was doing.
The kicker in all this, though, is that the officer got so badly bullied and taken sort of kidded for this video. He lost his job and just recently was awarded $700,000 because he said he`d become a laughing stock amongst his co-workers after the video leaked. Sam, is it really just a function of the leaking of the video or is it the fact that videos are affecting people so profoundly now?
SCHACHER: I think it`s that videos are affecting people so profoundly now. But I don`t know if he was bullied, Dr. Drew. I know that`s a strong word. Those are his words. I know that he was made fun of for this, but give me a break. For him to have to quit his job, he`s basically being rewarded for bad behavior --
KLITZNER: Here`s what I got to say. What I got to say is Youtube.com/Sean. That`s my YouTube channel. Please go and make fun of me. And who can I sue?
PINSKY: The thing is, though -- what?
PINSKY: Go ahead.
KLITZNER: Well, I was going to say, this is just one thing, one reason why it`s not great to have every single thing on the internet. The other reason being that kids watch all this stuff. So, you can be in the video or you know?
PINSKY: And mind you, it`s his work that should have stayed in -- that work released this video or leak this video. They should have been responsible and kept it in-house. But anyway --
KLITZNER: They are responsible. $700,000.
PINSKY: Sam -- Cat, you have a last comment.
PINSKY: Cat, go ahead.
VALDES: OK. I just want to say that if he`s being like made fun of for this video, like he`s a grown man. He can get over it and like go see a therapist and feel better. He doesn`t need --
PINSKY: Don`t log on to these two people`s YouTube pages and make fun of them. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: "Last Call" goes to Jenny Hutt -- Jenny.
HUTT: So, last night on the show, Dr. Drew, we talked about anxiety and the importance of being open about it. And then today, I had a panic attack and I blogged about it on just Jenny.com to share my experience.
PINSKY: There you go. Read it and make fun of her.
PINSKY: "What Would You Do?" starts right now.