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The Killer In His Own Words
Aired February 11, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the killer in a loud music trial in his own words.
MICHAEL DUNN, SUSPECT: I had no choice but to defend myself. It was life or death.
PINSKY: Does the jury believe him? Does Ms. Ali? She`s here.
Plus, photo mom boating death. Did the victim show the first punch neighborhood?
And our "Week of Weed" series continues. Tommy Chung is here live.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt, and coming up, our Tommy Chong will deliver some opinions and Ms. Ali of all people will respond.
But, first, a verdict in this ridiculous loud music murder trial. Imagine all those words. It`s ridiculous. The verdict could come soon. Today, the man, the white man, accused of murdering a black teen told his side of the story under oath.
Take a look.
DUNN: I saw two young men with menacing expressions. I thought I was going to be killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Dunn is a self-defense nightmare. He is a defense attorney`s nightmare right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jordan Davis was never a threat to you, was he, Mr. Dunn?
DUNN: Absolutely. He was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You thought everybody in the car was a thug or a gangster, right?
DUNN: After the way they behaved, yes, I did.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN: No matter what he said, no matter how much he yelps, he is not going to get Michael Dunn to back down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t recall saying, I hate that thug music?
DUNN: No, if I would have said anything, I would have called it rap crap.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The minute they keep citing that music, it`s rap music. That is subtle racism.
PINSKY: Joining us, Jillian Barberie, TV and now, radio personality. She`d be co-hosting KABC Radio`s "Mid-Day L.A." starting Monday.
PINSKY: The defense attorneys here are going to tell us how a defense attorney even takes this case. Michael Catherwood, TV and radio host, of course, my co-host on "Love Line". Samantha Schacher, social commentator, and host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, and Ms. Shahrazad Ali, social commentator, author of "The Blackwoman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackman."
First, HLN`s Christi Paul is here with the latest -- Christi.
CHRISTI PAUL, HLN (via telephone): Oh my God, Dr. Drew, literally, social media exploded when he was on the stand today. I mean, comments on Twitter were ranging from, oh, he`s confident. He`s telling the truth. He`s cocky, he`s words I can`t describe and he`s smug, but then he`s sincere.
I mean, I had one woman tweet saying I want so badly to hate this man, but I`m finding myself believing him.
So tomorrow, we expect closing arguments and the fact is, this jury could get the case as soon as 4:30 Eastern.
PINSKY: Thank you, Christi.
Anahita, you told me in the makeup chair that you thought the prosecution blew it.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: I think they did a horrific job today. Dr. Drew, after their job on cross exam, I think there is a chance for acquittal here.
And hear me out, OK? This is a tough defense. But come on, these are the same prosecutors that prosecuted the Zimmerman case. They made the great mistake of Zimmerman of putting be every the jurors that re-enactment tape so the jurors got to hear Zimmerman testify without him being subjected to cross examination.
That was a huge mistake. So, they didn`t want to make that same mistake here. So, they didn`t plan an interrogation tape of Dunn. So they forced him to take the stand. Great strategy.
But what happened here? When they had the chance to cross examination him, all the prosecutor did was ask open ended questions, allowing Dunn to talk, talk, talk, instead of asking pointed direct, yes or no questions. Their biggest day turned out to be their biggest fail. And I think --
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, what did you make of this? Hang on a second, Sam. Ms. Ali, first. Ms. Ali, go ahead.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR (via telephone): Well, I kind of agree with her. I think those two prosecutors were horrible. I don`t know why they keep putting theme failed white people up there. Where are the black prosecutors so that they can deal with about the black issues? They`ll know what questions to ask them to pull him out and show his real personality.
But all they did was allow him to give every reason we could think of that he was justified, had a right for the do what he did and most of the white people listening to him, I listen to him and I`m black, start to say, well, you know what, he got a point.
So, actually, they blew the case again. Why are they getting those failed prosecutors up there and not get some new people?
PINSKY: Go ahead, Samantha.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew, I completely disagree. I think the prosecution did lead, but that doesn`t compare to the destruction of Michael Dunn caused to his own case. He buried himself today on that stand. Not only did he provide the opportunity for prosecution to disprove his statements with evidence, but he showed the jury his real actual character, which was combative --
ALI: No, he didn`t.
SCHACHER: -- argumentative and that`s the way that Michael Dunn acts in a courtroom with a judge, can you imagine how he acted in that gas station parking lot under the influence to Jordan Davis and those teens? I think he sealed his fate today.
PINSKY: Michael --
MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, RADIO PERSONALITY: You`ve got to understand that.
SEDAGHATFAR: No way.
CATHERWOOD: We`ve already established she a combative and a confrontational guy because anybody and I have been in places where I wanted to tell people how to behave. I see guys littering or I see people hit -- spanking their kids at the supermarket, I want to intervene, but you oftentimes just think, well, it`s probably not a good idea. I don`t want to cause a scene or I don`t want to be unnecessarily confrontational. He approached a car full of people.
PINSKY: Right, and he did it when he may have been drinking a little bit, too.
I`m thinking about you back in the day with Lee Stowe in the inner city.
PINSKY: When you were sort of, you probably had an attitude when you were running around with those guys. Did you ever do anything like this?
CATHERWOOD: Sure. I mean, I never was the type of guy. I was probably too hammered to ever get the word out. But I would want to do stuff like that. Because, I mean, he`s, all I`m saying is he is clearly a confrontational guy. It takes a special person no matter how angry you are.
SEDAGHATFAR: You guys are missing the point, though.
CATHERWOOD: You`re absolutely right. You`re right.
ALI: You know what the problem is, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, please tell me.
ALI: The problem is that we as laymen people on my side, we`ve looked at too much television. We looked at "CSI". All of those different programs where the prosecutors are full of death and they`re thorough and they`re qualified. Then we get these dummies come up there and blow the whole case in a day.
This is what the problem is. We are seeing prosecutors succeed and getting the bad guys. Listen, you remember about a year ago when the police actually shot the man in the back. He thought he was his taser and he pulled his gun.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes.
ALI: This time, Dunn may have to take one, but that guy got three years, that`s all he got, was three years, and he only served eight months. So, even if they convict this guy, he is not going to do time because of the stand your ground law that most white people agree with.
PINSKY: Jillian, I haven`t heard from you.
PINSKY: Hold on, Jillian.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, TV PERSONALITY: I lived in Florida and I love Miami. I cannot stand the stand your ground law. I think it`s horrible.
There were so many holes in his story today. First of all, he gets in the car and doesn`t tell his fiancee he was threatened. That he thought that there was a weapon pointed at him. She completely contradicted his testimony today. Then he says that Davis got out of the car, and walked to him, he felt threatened, he fired shots.
The medical examiner said the shots were conducive to someone sitting in that back seat on the passenger`s side. So, he is lying.
And also, the fact that he is so threatened, he walks over to them and says, are you guys talking to me? Come on.
PINSKY: Yes, or pulls his window down, as Ms. Ali said. I`m going to play one piece of tape real quick, though. This is the victim`s parents works are lovely people. We have a tape to see how they want to position this case, not about race, but about stand your ground.
Go ahead. Let`s roll this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though race being an element in the case, we will not go in that direction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then, we get this uproar. Then we get the protests and all this stuff. And I just don`t think in my way of thinking that it`s good for America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jenny, what do you want to say?
HUTT: First of all, I think their point isn`t that race is not a factor. I think they want us to focus on the fact that their son was murdered regardless of the fact that race was a factor. If that makes sense, Dr. Drew.
But back to the testimony. The guy was so arrogant and so vile that I wanted to jump through the screen and punch him. My hope is that the jury got that, because it`s about whether his reasonable belief he was in fear of imminent great bodily harm or death. I don`t think the fear was reasonable.
PINSKY: Anahita, last thought, you look like you really want to say something. I`m saying the guy seems smug and self satisfied. What`s up?
SEDAGHATFAR: Let`s just clear up the fact, first of all. He`s not going on a stand your ground immunity. He is arguing self-defense. It`s two completely different things. So, let`s get that straight, number one.
And number two, the fact that he was able to take the stand, it`s all about credibility. He was giving the same consistent testimony on direct and on cross? I mean, cross examination is when the prosecution has a chance to poke holes in his testimony. They didn`t do that. I think --
SCHACHER: Yes, they did.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, panel.
Next, we heard what Dunn said. What did he really mean? We`re going to have a behavior borough look at him and his body language and look and see what they feel this man is doing on the stand today.
And later, we are again today, day two of our week of weed series. Let me get my friend Tommy Chong in here and he and Ms. Ali will share their thoughts. This I got to hear.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUNN: She`s my fiancee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you living with her at the time?
DUNN: Yes, yes, we were. It wasn`t just my life that I was worried about. Something about a shooting on the south side, I ran for the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell the jury why you ran to the bathroom.
DUNN: I vomited. Now I shot at them, so now what am I going to do? I`m shaking, I`m quivering like a leaf.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did the defendant tell you he saw a weapon of any kind in that SUV?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny.
And, Jenny, we`ve got a tweet here from Tiger Prince @tonystevens13, he says he sided with Anahita. "I agree with what you said on DR. DREW tonight the prosecution did a horrific job."
Jenny, I think you were saying the same thing, no?
HUTT: Well, yes. I think the prosecution could have done a better job. It almost doesn`t matter because this guy is so reprehensible, Dr. Drew, that I think the jury will see that. That`s what I`m hoping.
PINSKY: Well, let`s talk about that very issue. We`re talking about a white man on trial for the murder of black teen.
I`m bringing the behavior bureau and see what they think about his believability and what`s going on with him.
Leann Tweeden, social commentator, Adam Lyons, behavior expert, Erica America, Z100 Radio personality and psychotherapist, and Wendy Walsh is back, psychologist, author of the "The 30-Day Love Detox."
And if you would like to join the conversation, tweet us right @DrDrewHLN, #behaviorburea.
Leeann, you first. Michael Dunn cried on the stand. Did you believe those tears? Did you understand what the tears were for?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I didn`t believe it at all, Dr. Drew. I felt like he was crying for himself and it was a little disgusting because everything he was saying on the stand today was, I just didn`t believe any of it and it sounded like he just had it all in his mind exactly how he was going to say it. It was like he was making excuses every time.
Well, I was doing it in self defense. Well, I felt like they were going to kill me. It just -- it didn`t seem sincere, and I don`t know, I mean, if I was a person sitting on the jury listening, I just -- I don`t know, things don`t add up to him. And just his reaction to everything, and the fake tears. I don`t know, it bugged me.
PINSKY: You bet. Wendy crying for himself, it sound like other subjects we have been talking about on this show, does it not?
WALSH: Exactly. When I saw those tears and I listened to his words, he wasn`t showing any remorse about having killed somebody, even accidentally or in self-defense, which is, you know, somebody with a healthy mind would literally be like, this is so awful. This young teen died. It was a terrible situation. He did the wrong thing by pulling a gun on me. I felt so awful for him and his family.
No, there was none of that.
WALSH: It was all about I was crying about what they were going to do to me. I threw up, I got so nervous about what was going to happen to me.
Erica, do you agree with that?
ERICA AMERICA, RADIO PERSONALITY: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Drew, this guy is crazytime.com. It`s smug. It`s beyond that.
Let`s talk about 10 bullets. If you`re scared for your life and you don`t want to hurt anybody, you fire one shot, if that. He did 10 shots. Then, after that, he didn`t mention to his fiancee, there was a gun and that was the reason why he shot them.
Then the biggest thing is he never made a phone call to 911 to say, I just shot my entire gun, and I don`t know what happened to these people. It was in defense of my own life, but this is what happened. To not do that takes the cake right there. There is something wrong with this guy.
PINSKY: Even Zimmerman, even our friend Zimmerman.
AMERICA: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Erica, go ahead.
AMERICA: Dr. Drew, who goes to a wedding with a loaded gun in the front of your car? That`s insane. I`m sorry, that`s insane.
PINSKY: Well, the more I learn about Florida, the more I kind of think anything is possible. But, Adam, you study people`s behavior and their body language. What do you see with this man up on the stand?
ADAM LYONS, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: I think one of the most important things to realize is at the very beginning, through his testimony, we get everyday of not only a time where he tells the truth but of a time where he lies. He definitely did state that, you know, I asked them to turn the music down. As you look at the way he says that, he is very clear, very consistent in the way he says that.
However, there is another story he is led into, which is could you hear yourself think? He said, yes, kind of. I may have said that, I may not have.
And as the question continues, we find out that actually he didn`t say that. He didn`t believe it.
So, we get this baseline for when he lie, of him hesitating, pausing, the threat of the whole testimony. You keep watching the elements he says, he would pause, hesitate, and even show other classic examples of lying like putting his hand over his mouth.
PINSKY: Well, that was the thing -- not only handed, but actually putting the hand over his mouth, taking a handkerchief and putting over his mouth. That to me seemed like sort of an extreme, almost like a guilty or a shaming hiding kind of a thing.
TWEEDEN: Yes, of course. I mean, who, Dr. Drew, wants a weapon? Look, I am a responsible gun owner. But I would never unload a weapon at somebody, drive away and then just go order some pizza because my girlfriend or my fiancee had an upset stomach. That`s his excuse?
That is inexcusable behavior -- to not even call 911, to not know if he killed somebody or hit anybody.
PINSKY: We are looking at a picture here of Leeann of where he was when he shot in the vehicle, and where the young guys were in the vehicle.
And so, Leeann, I guess you would discharge your gun and then call the police, right?
TWEEDEN: Well, I mean, if that`s the situation that -- I mean, he`s claiming self-defense, which, obviously, it seems a little one-sided. But if that`s how he fell, that`s how he felt. As a responsible gun owner, you should obviously actually call the police and say what happened and make a report and you want to stick around or at least be close and go back to walk the cops through how it happened.
PINSKY: Wendy, I`m just imagining Leeann as a gun toter. I`m having trouble --
WALSH: It`s quite a scene.
PINSKY: Wendy first, then Adam. Wendy go ahead.
WALSH: OK, I`ll tell you what Leeann wouldn`t have done. If somebody was playing large, loud music that was bothersome at a gas station, you know how you stop that? You roll up your window. OK? You drive away.
PINSKY: You don`t go into trouble.
By the way, people that are really skilled with self-defense and guns know how to not get in trouble.
But, Adam, go ahead. What do you want to say?
LYONS: The biggest thing missing from this entire story is, where is the fear? If somebody puts a gun in my case I`m recounting my story, I`m talking about how I was scared, I was worried. He felt I was in danger. You are I was completely terrified.
PINSKY: Erica, last word.
AMERICA: I just want to say, if people weren`t allowed to have guns, civilians, it wouldn`t be the Wild, Wild West, where people are saying, hey, I see my gun. I`m going to pull out my gun.
PINSKY: So I want you to go --
TWEEDEN: No, I don`t agree with that.
PINSKY: Put on your gloves, have at with Leeann. We`ll see you after the break.
Next up, the beating case may not be what it seems. There is more to that story. Tonight we will look at the video. This is kind of a sad story.
Later, the "Week of Weed" continues with the man who made -- became famous and made millions from being a stoner, Tommy Chong.
Back after this.
PINSKY: Killed outside a nightclub. People watch and take pictures and videos as she is kicked and punched to death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three women were involved in a street fight, which resulted in the death of 23-year-old Kim Pham.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a group exiting. That was a group that she was in and Miss Pham and her group were outside as they crossed paths.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A verbal altercation which then erupted into a physical altercation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you see the girl`s fight, it`s really scary because people start to egg the girls on.
PINSKY: Oh, wow.
SCHACHER: They think it`s funny. They think it`s sexy. The defense attorney is already saying, look the victim started it. They`re saying it was more than a photo bomb.
PINSKY: Fabulous. Blame the victim fantastic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s where they go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. We are back with Jenny, Sam, Wendy, Erica and for the first time in the behavior bureau, Anahita joins the behavior bureau.
The story we thought we knew about this deadly nightclub beating may not be entirely true. Loni was talking about there in that report. The initial reports were Kim Pham photo-bombed a group of women, and they retaliated by knocking her to the ground and kicking her in the head.
But police now say, police testimony reveals Kim may have thrown the first punch. Cops are looking at cell phone recorded by witnesses.
Here is one case example of that. One officer testified that Kim bumped into the women, as they were leaving the club. They hurled obscenities at her. And then, Kim was physically restrained by her friend, broke free, punched one of the women and that`s where this all went down.
Kim Pham struck first. Does that, Anahita, our legal person on the behavior panel. Does that change your mind about the case?
SEDAGHATFAR: That definitely changes the reflection of the case, Dr. Drew, because now you have certain individuals that will testify at trial it was Pham that was the aggressor. And then you`re going to have other individuals that will testify it was the defendants that were the aggressors. So that muddies the water.
PINSKY: I saw Sam going, Anahita, I know you didn`t.
SCHACHER: Yes, Dr. Drew. No, you didn`t, Anahita.
SCHACHER: OK, even for argument sake, because I`m not saying that Pham is the one that threw the first punch. But even if she did, that doesn`t license these girls to bet her, beat the life out of her literally.
And you see in the footage, not only did she fall to the ground after being punched ten times, I mean, you fall to the ground, you are defenseless. But after she was defenseless and on the ground, they continue to kick and punch her to where you see her body go limp and she becomes unconscious.
They killed her and they deserve to suffer the consequences.
PINSKY: All right. Listen, Wendy, I want you to watch this. I`m just thinking of myself how interesting this, finally, a case not in Florida. But here we go. No guns interestingly guys.
But Kim`s friend, Jennyane Truong, joined me on the show not long after this -- her friend died and she`ll have a hard time believing that Kim started the fight because listen to how she describes this young man.
And, Wendy, and I want to talk about this issue of possibly blaming the victim.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNYANE TRUONG, KIM`S FRIEND: Kim is a person who has a heart of gold. She would not --
PINSKY: Had she ever been in a fight before?
TRUONG: You know what? No. Not to my knowledge. And I`m pretty sure many people can vouch to that as well. Kim is not a person of violence. Kim is a person of love. She preaches love and her action, her actions mirrored that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And yet, Wendy, held back by her friends.
WALSH: Yes, I don`t mean to disagree with this woman, but, you know, anybody can be enliven towards violence or aggression if they are threatened and we don`t know what kind of drugs or alcohol might be in their system. But again, this is not to blame the victim, just because she threw a punch doesn`t mean she deserves to die.
I think the more tragic issue about all of this, is this darn bystander effect, Dr. Drew. We see it over and over and over. Did you know that if you`re having problems in public, even if you`re suffering a heart attack, an epileptic fit, if there`s violence, the more people around you, the less likely it is that you will get helped. Isn`t that terrible? It`s terrifying.
PINSKY: However, if one person breaks that pattern, one person steps out of crowd and help, others are likely to follow. So, everybody, please, for crying out loud, you see something where people need help, go help them. Don`t look around and who else is helping. You always can make a difference.
And somebody, even if you don`t know how to help, somebody in there does and they will follow you.
Erica, you had a comment.
AMERICA: Yes, I just want to say it doesn`t matter about her character, who threw the first punch. She did not deserve to be beaten to death because of mob mentality and piling on and that`s what happened.
So, if we can somehow, through the video, single out what they did do most of the boating and the blunt force trauma to the head, they should be prosecuted in a murder trial. That`s just what I feel, that this girl was killed.
PINSKY: Anahita, what is your prediction on this case?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. My prediction is I think it`s too soon to tell. I think they have viable self-defense arguments here, especially now in light of the fact that there could be reasonable doubt.
But, Dr. Drew, let me lay down the law please for the last time about something you mentioned and I think one of your other guests mentioned. In these self-defense cases, there is always people screaming out, oh, they`re blaming the victim, they`re dehumanizing the victim -- you have to understand when you are arguing self defense, you guys, you have to show the defendant feared the victim.
So, what do you do? You don`t portray the victim as some innocent, lovable angel that would never harm a fly. That`s not self defense. You have to show that that victim was someone who was aggressive, someone that was scary, someone that you feared. So, that is what`s going on.
PINSKY: We are so happy we have defense attorneys. Everyone feels comfortable with it. Here we go.
We will stop.
Next week, it`s the "Week of Weed" day two. I thought we`d bring in Tommy Chong, why not? And have Ms. Ali discuss this with him.
And later, some videos that will take your breath away. What`s this dad about to do with this baby on the railroad tracks?
We`ll be right back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, they legalized an ounce of marijuana in Washington State so I decided to roll mine up into a joint.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, this is going to be across OG cush (ph), vanilla cush, and sweet tooth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Colorado became the first state to sell marijuana for recreation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s already going for $50 per eighth of an ounce.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Recreational marijuana businesses in Colorado made at least $5 million in their first five days of sales.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If money exchanges hands, we need to wet our beaks. You know what I`m saying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who wants to --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Colorado is literally thumbing its nose at the federal government.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys wanted to score some weed?
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: I`m smoking (ph) out too much, I guess.
PINSKY: These chips are really good, though.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: I don`t want my babysitter high on pot. All right. Does anybody?
PINSKY: Jenny and I are back. It is time for our series "Week of weed." Recreational pot is now legal in Colorado. And my guess tonight each have an opinion, diverse group of opinions. Back with mike, Leeann, Erica, Miss Ali, and joining to the panel is Tommy Chong, famous of course for Cheech & Chong, up and smoke and his comedy records, and also as a pot advocate.
Tommy, thank you for joining us, by the way. Let me take -- took off his net bong or whatever that thing is before --
He said something very astute. He said, he goes, hey, man, are you buying any of this new weed? No, no, And I said literally, I`d be scared I`d get a panic attack. And Tommy, what did you say?
TOMMY CHONG, @TOMMYCHONG: Don`t do it.
PINSKY: It happens. Yes, it happens. Right. It`s always very --
PINSKY: But you -- speaking of being sensible, you served time back in 2003 for selling bongs, is that right?
CHONG: I did. I did nine months.
PINSKY: And now --
CHONG: In jail.
PINSKY: -- it`s all legal. I mean, how do you understand the laws from your perspective?
CHONG: Well, I always knew it was good for you. I mean, that was one of the reasons that I did it. You know, I`ve smoked pot, you know, most of my life and especially lately because I was diagnosed with prostate cancer a year ago. And I started treating the prostate with marijuana and I`m glad to say that I`m cancer-free right now.
PINSKY: Michael, weed not good for you as a recovering guy?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST, "LOVELINE": Exactly. Exactly. Look, but I`m not going to say -- sit here and say that it shouldn`t be legalized and that it is as dangerous as some of these people who are leading the witch hunt against marijuana are trying to say it is. I think it was Nancy Grace has said, you wouldn`t want your babysitter high on weed, would you? You`re right. But I also wouldn`t want my babysitter drunk.
And you can go buy a bear anywhere you want in this country. So, this is absolutely unreasonable, some of the arguments that people make against marijuana. It is terrible. And it was dangerous for me. You know what else was, cocaine, an acid, a meth, an ecstasy and all these --
PINSKY: And alcohol and tobacco.
CATHERWOOD: -- because I`m a drug addict. I`m a drug addict.
PINSKY: You`re right. But you did chew. You`re going to make (ph) cancer from that one day. You did a lot of alcohol. That certainly -- alcohol was your primary drug, wasn`t it?
CATHERWOOD: I still to this day as someone who is, you know, by the grace of God, is sober. I still to this day drink dangerous amounts of caffeine. I`m an addict. And that`s all legal. You can talk about whether you like a drug or not, that`s your opinion, but it`s absolutely unreasonable and insane what these people are trying to -- the people who are against marijuana being a legal product in this country --
PINSKY: You`re sitting next to one --
PINSKY: Before I get to Leeann, I want to get Miss Ali. She and I have never discussed this. So, I`m very curious what her take is on all this.
VOICE OF SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, Dr. Drew, there is two points here that I see as the major thing. The laws to legalize marijuana in America was not something that was done to appease the Latino population or the Black population because more White people in America (ph) use drugs than any other nationality. That`s one. Secondly - -
CATHERWOOD: I don`t know about that.
ALI: Marijuana is one of the first attempts on the Black man in America to be self-employed and that was a business he could go into that you all didn`t have to give information to get hired. And as long as he didn`t get caught, he was able to have a business. Bob Marley had already told us it`s not a drug, it`s an herb. And you know how popular he was and how wonderful a man he was and his music was --
Before I go to Leeann, I want to get one more comment from Tommy, because Tommy was nodding his head vigorously -- Tommy.
CHONG: Yes, I totally agree. It`s an herb. It`s a medicine. The Chinese used marijuana as a medicine for over 5,000 years. And we all know the Chinese, you know, they`re the ones that gave us tai chi, acupuncture, and all sorts of great natural herbs to cure a lot of illnesses. And so --
PINSKY: All right. Let`s talk to Leeann. Leeann`s got -- point of view and then Erica. Leeann, go ahead. Leeann first, though -- Leeann.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Look, as somebody that has never done drugs in her life, and I`ve never even smoked a cigarette, I prefer jumping out of planes and drives race cars if anybody is going to ask me. But I hate drugs. I`ve always hated drugs. I grew up during the time when it was just say no. My brother got addicted to crack when we were in high school.
So, I saw all the bad things at a very young age, and I`ve hated it. Sure. I know. I hear from all my friends, marijuana is not as bad as cocaine, as heroin, as meth, but I hate it nonetheless. And I hate that if it gets legalized, and I hate to say this, a gateway drug. But, I talked to Mike last week in the studio, and I think Mike will agree with me. I asked him, I said, "how do you get addicted to cocaine and heroin? You have to do it first."
And he`s like, "well, you just don`t shoot, you know, your arm full of heroin the very first time you do drugs. You do start with something like pot. And you do start with, you know, alcohol.
PINSKY: Leeann, today, in fact, there was an article in the "New York Times" today that pointed out something I`ve been saying for the last five or ten years, which is the new gateway drug is opiate pills. It`s pills. It used to be back in the day when I first started working, it was alcohol, pot, cocaine. That was the gateway. That`s what got people really going, but now, it is pill. Miss Ali.
CHONG: Why do you blame the gate?
ALI: Marijuana in America has always been legal for some people. One of the founding fathers, George Washington, he grew marijuana for 30 years in the 1700 on his plantation. And doctors here in America use marijuana as a medicinal purposes and everything and even big companies in the 1930s like Eli Lilly and Park Davi. They sold cannabis and marijuana as a liquid form, OK?
So, the drug companies have been using it and the government said that in 1910, that the Mexicans are the ones that taught Americas how to use marijuana for recreational purposes, because they were doing to right this thing and using it only for medicine.
PINSKY: OK. I got -- I wanted to say, my biggest concern is -- Erica, I`ll let you comment here. But let`s remember, tobacco is also a plant. And doctors, I`m sure I feel like -- who is George Washington`s doctor? I`m blanking his name right now. I`m sure he was like, oh, boy, this is not going --
CATHERWOOD: Conrad Murray.
PINSKY: No, it`s not Conrad --
PINSKY: But it feels kind of the same to me, Erica, like there`s going to be a big cannabis that comes out of this. It`s just a plant that alters people and businesses are going to get ahold, but go ahead.
ERICA AMERICA, RADIO PERSONALITY: I understand the legalization with it. In fact, I`m on board with it, but what he have to understand is that while it helps people like Tommy, some people, it`s addictive to others and it can be really harmful. So, we have to be very vigilant about this going forward just like alcohol is legal but can mean death for some people. So, I just think --
PINSKY: That`s right. It`s not -- that`s right.
AMERICA: It can`t just be always good for me, it`s good for everyone.
PINSKY: Right. It is -- hang on, Miss Ali, but just because something is addictive does not mean it should be illegal. And I agree those of us in the medical profession and you, Erica, in the mental health profession will be very vigilant about what the consequences of all this is. Ali, Miss Ali, last word.
ALI: Here`s the last word. Here`s one bit of trivia we`re all going to love. Back in 30 A.D., according to Exodus and the New Testament at a bible, Jesus anointed his disciples with a mixture of olive oil and marijuana cannabis, OK? And He said --
PINSKY: I think Tommy was there.
ALI: It`s a lot of people that believe that until today.
PINSKY: Tommy just stood up and applauded there. I think Tommy was actually there.
CHONG: That`s the burning bush. Hey, that`s the burning bush that Moses talked to. God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush. That was the bush that he --
CHONG: And when God saw Moses, he handed Moses, he said --
PINSKY: Michael, I know -- Michael, I bet you saw God a couple times when you were exposed to the burning bush as it were.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, I was, you know? And every time I was exposed to the burning bush, I told girls, they got to get a Brazilian wax.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Yes, OK.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, everybody. We`re going to have --
PINSKY: Thank you, everybody. I`m not sure if we took this conversation anywhere. Let me quickly check Twitter to see if anybody - "so, pill is the most used drugs." That`s what Latoya Robinson (ph).
Next up, check out this video of a father who appears to throw his baby in front of an oncoming train. We will show you how this goes, how it turns out. Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED KID: My biggest fear is getting kidnapped. So, today, I want to see if people actually help me if I were to get kidnapped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have ice cream. I have candy. I have TV. Just be quiet while I take you to the car. Don`t say anything. I`m going to take care of you, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That video, Jenny, is from new show --
HUTT: That --
HUTT: First of all, I love that kid. And second of all, if people didn`t stop and help him, they`re total you know what.
PINSKY: He`s like the man show (ph)boy. I want to give you a tweet real quick here. It is from Blue Jay, and he says, "Tommy Chong, fabulous point. There are many gateway drugs. Don`t blame the gate. One man poisoned is not everyone."
PINSKY: It`s interesting. And I think if I can get no other message driven home through all this cannabis conversation is pills are the problem today. Be much more concerned about pills right now than anything else. Cannabis is epilogue at this moment.
All right. Back with Sam, Jillian and joining us, two of the hosts of "Right This Minute," Beth Troutman and Steven Fabian. Beth, tell us about the new show.
BETH TROUTMAN, HOST, "RIGHTTHISMINUTE": This show is all about videos before they go viral and the stories behind them. I mean, the internet is a huge space. Who has time every day to go through all of that and find the best stuff? We do all of that for you guys and then take it a step further to get the stories behind them and it`s unscripted. It`s us watching videos along with our viewers. We have no writers. It`s just a lot of fun.
PINSKY: I saw the show last night. I thought, this is a great show. You`re going to get these guys on our show immediately. Steven, set up what we just saw coming into this segment.
STEVEN FABIAN, HOST, "RIGHTTHISMINUTE": What you guys just watched is actually a clip from a YouTube channel called "Fousey Tube" -- skits and funny stuff. At this time, doing a very serious, social experiment about kidnapping. You see, they send a young boy out there, approaching strangers, guy and girls, telling them, hey, somebody in a coat is after me.
Somebody in this big jacket is after me, took me away from his parents, took away from my parents. He`s asking me to get inside his car. And, basically, they`re recording people`s reactions, what they do --
PINSKY: What`s the predominant reaction?
FABIAN: It`s a bit of a mixed bag. You saw there in that clip that the kidnapper was kneeling down, saying, I got candy, I`ve got ice cream, I`ve got TV, come with me. And you noticed that guy in the back, he hears this. And he stops and he goes back. And I think we have the other part of that clip to see what that guy did.
PINSKY: Can we see that clip, control room? Here we go.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: He was chasing me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my son. Sorry about that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED KID: He was --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s my son.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. He`s saying that you`re not his father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Timmy, come home.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: He`s not my father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible). Timmy, come home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you going to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t stop me.
PINSKY: Sam, they pepper sprayed the guy.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Good. Yes.
FABIAN: You can see -- reaction from all sorts of people. Some people got physical with the kidnapper. Some people were duped by him when the kidnapper was kind of more friendly and joking around, more jovial. They kind of let the kid go.
PINSKY: Reaction. Sam.
SCHACHER: I carry pepper spray. I would have pepper sprayed him, too, or I would have done that whole grab, twist, pull maneuver because I just don`t trust situations like that. I was (ph) the first person who called police and held on to that kid until they showed up.
TROUTMAN: That`s good maneuver, by the way.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I thought -- or just kick him in the balls. But you know, I thought the whole idea when the guy used humor, when the guy used humor, they were more likely to just let the kid go. The husband and wife at the end with the pepper spray. I love them. There are so many people that just restored my faith in people again that, you know, going to do the right thing.
PINSKY: No bystander effect in this video. No bystander.
Next up -- excuse me -- I`m too excited by the show.
PINSKY: -- video is about to show -- it looks like he`s about to throw a baby onto the tracks. We will show you what he does do. And a reminder, you can find us any time on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. We`ll be right back after this.
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and Sam, Julia and Beth Troutman and Steve Fabian. Beth and Steven host HLN`s new show "Right This Minute" which follows us tonight. Beth, tell us about the next video.
TROUTMAN: This video we got from nine news in Australia. And if you watch the surveillance footage from a Sydney train station and you see that guy in yellow. He looks as if he`s pretending to throw a small toddler in front of a train that is coming into the station. People at the time did not report this guy`s actions.
Now, the people that have seen the surveillance footage, police are looking for help trying to figure out who this guy is, because they don`t know exactly what was going on. They don`t know if it was a father. They don`t know if it was a relative or if this guy was just being playful.
PINSKY: Well, it`s not playful. I want a reaction from our moms on the panel. Jillian -- Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: What is wrong with that guy? What if he accidentally slipped or his hands --
PINSKY: Jillian, it reminds me of Michael Jackson holding his son back in the day over the balcony. Remember the reaction to that?
BARBERIE: I do, but you know what so weird, I saw that video, you guys, and I wasn`t as offended as I was for the next video of the baby being locked in the car. I --
PINSKY: All right. Let`s get to that. Let`s get to that. We have limited time, Jillian. You react to that. Beth, tell us about the baby in the car.
TROUTMAN: This is at a shopping center, also in Australia. You see that guard standing by the red car. That`s a security guard from the shopping center. He`s breaking that window because there`s a 14-week old child in the back of that car. The car owner was inside the shopping center. They got there in time. They did get the baby out.
The 14-week-old was fine, but once the woman came back to the car, once the car owner came back, she told officials that she had simply forgotten that the child was in the back of the car.
PINSKY: And then, Jillian, how about the guy with the little girl standing by traumatizing her -- Jillian.
BARBERIE: No. It`s unbelievable. Like you forget a coat in a car. You don`t forget a kid. I understand that she is looking after -- the mother was sick and she was looking after the baby. That is absolutely deplorable. And yes, I have a real issue with that lady. I`m sorry.
FABIAN: -- more aware of what`s going on. I feel like I`d be more hyper aware that -- my responsibility with someone else`s child in the car.
SCHACHER: And I think what was troubling, guys, a lot is that because of her answer, because she said it was simply a mistake, so far, no charges have been filed against --
TROUTMAN: It was 104 degrees outside. It was scorching.
PINSKY: We got to leave it there. I got to go to the "Last Call." We`ll see you guys after our show ends. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: It is time for the "Last Call." And Jenny, today, NBC`s Tom Brokaw revealed that he has a cancer, hematological malignancy. Some people call it a bone marrow cancer. Multiple myeloma. This is an unrestrained growth of a certain blood cell line to the bone marrow. Apparently, he was diagnosed in August. I wonder if you have any questions about this condition?
HUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, yes. my question is, how many kinds of cancer are there, because I feel like --
PINSKY: As many cells -- Jenny, as many cell types is there are on your body. Any cell in your body and even cells that go through transformations like lymphocytes can -- at any stage in there transformation can suddenly become cancerous. That`s what cancer is. And that`s why it`s many different illnesses. Each cell has a different illnesses associated with it, but it`s all uncontrolled growth to the cell line. That`s what makes it cancer.
And myeloma is treatable -- curable. Myeloma kidneys -- complication. According to a statement -- these positions are encouraged with this process. He says, quote, "I remain the luckiest guy I know." And of course, we all wish Tom Brokaw the best. He`ll have great care. I think I look forward to him getting well.
Thank you, jenny. Thank you all my panelists. Thank you for watching, of course. And "Right This Minute," "Right This Minute," the guys you just saw, starts right now.