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Dr. Drew
"Thug Music" Murder Trial
Aired February 13, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the loud music murder trial. Ms. Ali, Ann Coulter and our behavior bureau all fired up and ready to go. What do they think?
Plus, a dad punches a pedophile. He was exposing himself in front of his daughter. Hear from the dad.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt. We`re, of course, on verdict watch in the loud music murder trial so called. The jury has deliberated for almost 12 hours.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: That`s right.
PINSKY: They`re sequestered.
Jenny, I`m wondering how the sequestration, the duration of the deliberation and the kinds of questions they`re asking compared with some of the other trials we`ve covered here on HLN.
HUTT: Well, I`m going to tell you, Dr. Drew. So, here`s what we know -- the Zimmerman jurors nook 16 1/2 hours to reach an acquittal on second degree murder, the Jodi Arias jurors took 16 hours to find her guilty of first degree murder. Casey Anthony got off after about 10 1/2 hours of deliberation for the death of 2-year-old Caylee, and Jerry Sandusky was convicted of 45 of 48 counts of child sex abuse after 20 hours.
So, what do you think?
PINSKY: All right. Well, I think, (a), we can`t predict what direction this is going on just the duration, based on what you`re saying.
HUTT: Yes.
PINSKY: And second, we`ll be wrapping it up soon, if not tomorrow, certainly Monday. So, we will remain on verdict watch.
Thanks, Jenny.
Coming up, we`re going to hear from the teen accused of beating his mom to death with a dumbbell. There`s a lot more gruesome detail to that story than we had known before. The brother-in-law of the victim will join us and talk us through what actually went down there and why that kid was not properly or if he was properly treated, how it got away from the treating professionals.
Now, Michael Dunn -- the gentleman who faces life behind bars in a case about rap, and rivalry between lawyers. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody from my office or Mr. Dunn has brought race into this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen closely and tell me what you hear. We`ll all be quiet for a moment. We`re going to listen to the audio on that surveillance video.
The rolling 808 drum machine makes that deep, deep thumping bass that you hear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was definitely anger early on. Mr. Davis was staring down Michael done, started walking to the gallery, bailiffs had to stop him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know what games he`s playing, but it`s unfortunate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has the Dunn family reached out to the Davis family?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I reached out to them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cory Strolla, Michael Dunn, none of his family has ever reached out to me, never reached out to the family that I know.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Let`s bring in our panel beginning with Segun Oduolowu, Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, Ann Coulter, political and social commentator, author of "Never Trust a Liberal Over 3, Especially a Republican," and Ms. Shahrazad Ali, social commentator, author of "The Blackman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackwoman".
Segun, do you think the jury has been injecting race into their deliberations or is this story, is this trial really about something else?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Dr. Drew, to be honest with you, I hope they are injecting race. The reason that I say that is they don`t have the power to strike down the law, but what they do have the power to do is send a message to other bigoted people that they can`t hide behind this horrible law.
I don`t think that this man would have shot into the car of four unarmed teens if they were white. I don`t think the music has anything to it. I think he saw four black kids in a car and he took it upon himself. He had a silencer in the trunk which we heard from Nancy Grace. He had Nunchucks in the back of the seat, he had armament. So, that law allowed him to live out his racism upon four unsuspecting teens.
I do hope they interject race into it because they don`t have the power to strike down a bad law but they can send a message to bigots that you can`t hide behind the law when race is your motivating factor.
PINSKY: All right. Anahita, you have told us repeatedly this trial is not about stand your ground, but Segun is saying stand your ground plays into the psychology of what happened here.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Of course it does. But Dr. Drew, race should not be injected into a trial when someone is on trial for murder. And quite frankly, the people that are looking into the racial makeup of the jurors and trying to imply that jurors will vote based on the color of their skin, I think that is so insulting, because the fact is jurors do the right thing, OK?
Of course, they`d be bring --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not always.
SEDAGHATFAR: They bring their life experiences into the jury box. Of course they do. But at the end of the day, they base their decision based on the facts and evidence that are presented to them in the courtroom. It`s -- to say --
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: It may be insulting to say the jurors vote based on the color of skin.
PINSKY: It maybe insulting, but I`m sure Ms. Ali has a different opinion. Then, Ann, I`ll give you a chance to respond to Ms. Ali.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: That is such a bunch of nonsense. But listen, I am happy to see that Segun apparently has had an epiphany, because earlier he was testifying, oh, this is not about race. Well, I`m glad you know it is now.
ODUOLOWU: No, I said the law is not about race.
ALI: No, the other this you get -- you got nine white men, two blacks and an Asian. And they`re not going to lose this case. They`re going to vote him not guilty.
The only thing this group could lose is a basketball game because there`s not enough blacks in there. But other than that, these guys are all going to stand behind this white man and say if it was them -- and they`re probably back there, Dr. Drew, bullying those two black people and making them say this is not about race because they don`t have any other support.
PINSKY: I want to give Ann a chance, but first, Segun, I`ll give you a chance to respond to Ms. Ali.
ODUOLOWU: Yes. Well, first, Ms. Ali, my name is Segun, but we`ll get the names aside. I`m just saying that, look, the jury doesn`t have the power to strike down this bad law. But when we`re saying it`s about race. I don`t care about the racial makeup of the jury, I just care of a fact that a white man opened fire on four black teens in a car.
Now, I -- we can`t look into his mind. And so, Anahita, what you said that race doesn`t play a part in the jury. You`re basically saying that human beings don`t vote their bias which they always do. So, that doesn`t hold any water --
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s actually not true. Segun, I`ve tried cases --
PINSKY: Hold on. I haven`t heard from Ann yet. Before I go to Ann, we had a tweet here from @commanderhalo. Ms. Ali and Ann Coulter, "What did I do to deserve such a blessing?"
Ann, here you go. You`re in the mix.
(LAUGHTER)
ANN COULTER, AUTHOR: I don`t think it`s race or stand your ground. I think it`s just a very strange case. I mean, first of all, you see the headlines about this case. Man shoots teens over loud music. And I assumed that isn`t the whole story.
No, that`s the whole story. I think the guy may be a nut. The evidence does seem to be, I think most people think, kind of overwhelming. He doesn`t report this case. I mean, if he was in fear for his life -- there are a few facts -- many facts that stand out here.
But the fact that he drives away after shooting in a fleeing car and he never reports it to the police, that`s kind of -- I mean, you don`t need to know anything more than that. I don`t think it`s being reported, I don`t thing people are reviewing this through the lens of race.
As for he shot them because they`re black, is this the first time he`s ever seen a black person? I think he just snapped.
PINSKY: Hold on --
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: -- the first time he had his gun on him.
PINSKY: Maybe and his silencer. But more to Ms. Ali. Go ahead.
ALI: I think what we`re looking at and the reason that this guy`s going to get off with most of these charges --
ODUOLOWU: I don`t think so.
ALI: -- is because of the television, movies, the 6:00 news, everything in this country has portrayed black males as threatening, menacing and a menace to society. And therefore any white person that talk about this and put themselves in the same position as they think Dunn was in, they`re going to say he had a right to shoot, because the image of black men has become so distorted and such a lie.
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: But hold on. Anahita, you have to hold that thought. I`ve got to go to break. Anahita, I know you`re going to tell us how it looks from the courtroom point of view.
But I just -- Ms. Ali has a point here. We just saw Nancy becoming apoplectic because of the kinds of questions coming out of the deliberation room and the fact that it was taking so long. To all of us looking at this, it looks like this should be easy, but we have the Anahitas in the world to defend these guys. So, she`ll get a chance to talk to us about what that looks like.
ODUOLOWU: Those darn defense attorneys.
PINSKY: We`re on verdict watch for this loud music murder trial, as it is called. Panel stays with me.
Later, we get back into our "Week of Weed" series and should -- we`ll talk about whether or not doctors should be prescribing cannabis to children and adolescents and what that entails, why they would do that. Greg Grunberg comes here to talk about it.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me read one of his hers, just a part of it that he wrote to his daughter in jail. He says, quote, "This jail is full of blacks and they all act like thugs. This may sound a bit radical, but if more people would arm themselves and kill these F`ing idiots when they`re threatening you, eventually they may take the hint and change their behavior. "
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That exact letter was written after somebody and then they walked by and said he was going to rape Mr. Dunn when he gets hold of him. He`s actually become quite friendly with some of the younger juveniles there. They can kind of talk through the vents. They indicated to him, we thought you were this angry mean white guy and they`ve actually learned to understand him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny.
We`re on verdict watch for the loud music murder trial. Still here, Segun, Anahita, Ann Coulter and Ms. Ali.
Ms. Ali, do you think this guy has changed at all or does that letter change anything?
ALI: Oh, no, he hasn`t changed anything. He`s so arrogant he doesn`t think he has to change. My worry is that the jury is asking these questions. We all thought this was going to be a slam dunk, but the fact they`re asking those questions, somebody has gotten to them and making them think about it.
Most of these guys in here are a bunch of contractors and welders, and they all tend to take a really active position regarding having a gun and using it. And that is what I`m worried about, that they`re going to bully those other jurors into going along with them.
PINSKY: Anahita, you agree with them or what`s your view from inside as a defense attorney?
SEDAGHATFAR: You couldn`t be more wrong. You`re asking why is it taking them so long? We talked about this in the makeup room.
But taking so long? I mean, these jurors are basically deciding whether or not this man spends the rest of his life in jail, so, of course, they need to deliberate. They`re doing exactly what we want them to do as jurors. They`re asking questions, they`re asking to review evidence. That`s what we want, both on the prosecution side and on the defense side.
And quite frankly, we can`t even read into some of their questions. Oh, why are they asking this question, why are they asking that question? Because it could be just one of those jurors asking that question.
PINSKY: All right.
SEDAGHATFAR: We don`t know. It could be one juror, two jurors.
I`ve got John Phillips. A civil attorney for Jordan Davis` family.
You gave HLN some video from the civil deposition of one of Dunn`s neighbors.
We`re going to look at that. Can you tell me all about it?
JOHN PHILLIPS, DAVIS FAMILY ATTORNEY (via telephone): Certainly, a guy named Charles Henjour (ph), who was a neighbor of Mr. Dunn for about eight years. And I was representing the family on the wrongful death and defamation case because of all the comments made by Dunn and his agents. So, I did a recorded interview with Mr. Anderson (ph). It wasn`t a sworn deposition. There was not another side there.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s look at it.
PHILLIPS: All this information came forward.
PINSKY: All right. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my opinion, he believed in black people and Hispanics were beneath white people, that this country was being taken over and white people needed to stand up. That was -- those are his words, not mine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dunn`s lawyer says there`s no evidence to support that gentleman`s claims.
Segun, were you doing jumping jacks there because you wanted to respond to this?
ODUOLOWU: Yes, this is the man`s neighbor. This man lives next door and sees his action every day. So, I think that he might have a better idea of the character of this man than the jurors. But I don`t even worry about what the jurors` questions are or what this means.
We must also realize there`s no amount of justice that will come from this trial because this kid is not coming back. This man took another man`s life and they`re deliberating whether he should spend the rest of his life in jail, but even that doesn`t bring back the kid`s life. He opened fire on four unarmed teens because the law allowed him to. Come on.
PINSKY: John, are you concerned about the length of the deliberation and the kinds of questions that are being asked by the jury.
PHILLIPS: No I disagree more with the prior comment. This is another man`s life on the line. And I like that they`re being meticulous and they`re going through because the evidence, especially of all the attempted murders, those last three shots is so clear and so convincing. You know, when it comes down to the thought is they`re trying to decide between first and second degree. And we still haven`t reached the amount of time it took in the Zimmermann verdict, many others.
PINSKY: John, hang on a second, John. What`s the deal with the silencer? Nancy Grace episode just prior to us, I think Taaffe was asking something about why he wasn`t found criminally -- why there wasn`t any action taken on the silencer? Can you tell us about that?
PHILLIPS: Nancy asked about the Nunchucks in the back seat, because he had Nunchucks visible.
PINSKY: And a silencer.
PHILLIPS: Certainly the silencer had nothing to do with it because it`s in the trunk. But the only purpose of the silencer is to silence. It was interesting when all that came out that he was referred to as novelty items. Those items are not funny, they`re not novelty, they`re weapons of destruction.
ODUOLOWU: Can I ask who takes these types of weapons to a wedding?
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Anahita --
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, thank goodness the jury is sequestered. Dr. Drew, thank goodness the jury is sequestered in this case. I don`t understand the purpose of Mr. Phillips, I understand he`s an advocate for the family of the victim, but why would you release this interview into the public when you know this is such a high profile case and racially charged, why would release this when the jury is deliberating.
ODUOLOWU: So the truth can get out.
PHILLIPS: Did you hear what he said about these young boys. He got on there and grandstanded saying this isn`t a black or white issue, this is a thug issue. I did not appreciate that, ma`am. This is the real Michael Dunn needs to come out. And there`s going to be many more neighbors and friends of his that will --
PINSKY: Hold on, John.
Ms. Ali, response.
ALI: Here`s the confusion that will come up, Dr. Drew. I mentioned this the last time on the Trayvon Martin case. When the judge read the instructions, he told them already that homicide can be excused if it`s in a fit of passion, if it`s considered an accident or in the middle of the confusion of combat.
So, it`s going to be very difficult again for them to find him guilty. And tell me this, let me ask the lawyer this, if they find him not guilty on the murder charges, does that mean he`s also not guilty on the attempted murder charges?
HUTT: No.
SEDAGHATFAR: No.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Each one is different. Ann, I`ll give you the last world.
PHILLIPS: They can hang on one of them and not on the rest.
COULTER: Thanks, lots of people talking in my ear. From one thing, what the jury does is utterly meaningless. I`m surprised it`s taken this long, too.
On the other hand, a jury found Casey Anthony innocent. I totally agree that this tape from the neighbor is meaningless. This is not a trial in Pakistan. The neighbor could hate him. Of course, it should not have come in a trial, it maybe fun on TV.
The reason what the jury needs to consider is the fact that there`s lots of incriminating evidence and as far as I can tell absolutely no exculpatory evidence. I don`t understand why this wasn`t a plea bargain. I don`t understand what is taking the jury so long, but it`s meaningless what the jury does, but who knows?
PINSKY: Jenny, you want to respond before we go to break.
HUTT: I just totally like what Ann is saying is spot on. This should have been a quick cut and dry case. The guy is guilty. There`s not a thing in this case that seems like he shouldn`t be.
So, the jury, I have to go to Ms. Ali, if they do not find him guilty, there`s a problem in the deliberations --
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: Will you two ladies march with us in Florida?
SEDAGHATFAR: -- case ever in the law, Dr. Drew.
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: Will you ladies march with us if it`s not found guilty, if he`s not found guilty, can we all collectively go to Florida and march?
SEDAGHATFAR: No, because not being found guilty does not mean that justice did not --
ODUOLOWU: No, no. But I love the fact that --
SEDAGHATFAR: Being found not guilty doesn`t mean that justice was not found in this case.
ODUOLOWU: Black people on TV, three white people on TV, we all think he`s guilty, you don`t. I want us all to march rainbow coalition and march.
SEDAGHATFAR: That`s terrible. I`m not white, first of all, Segun. And I`m not making my judgments based on the color of my skin. I`m basing it on the facts in evidence that were presented.
ODUOLOWU: I`m talking about Jenny and Ann and Dr. Drew, not you, Anahita. I know what you are.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`m not going to make a commitment if I can`t live up to it. I`ll definitely talk about it. There`s a lot of things I`d like to march about, for that matter.
So hang in there, guys.
ALI: I`m not marching about nothing.
PINSKY: All right, Ms. Ali, you don`t have to march.
And later, a behavior bureau comes in. And later, we`ll hear from the teen accused of beating his mother to death with a dumbbell. There he is. You`ll hear from him. The brother-in-law of the victim will be here with us to give us some of the real specific details about what went down in this case. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am the mother of a 3-year-old child. Believe you me I am concerned about his life, for his life and the way people perceive him.
ALI: That`s right. You all don`t know what it feels like to walk around --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree.
ALI: -- where most of the people hate you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How am I going to talk to him and explain to him that what his family sees as beautiful and lovable and silly and teenage- like, someone could be fearful of, unreasonably?
ALI: The general population out here that our children have to interact with or be around, we are different. The nature of black people and the nature of white people is different.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt. We`re talking about the loud music murder trial. A lot of opinions.
Let`s bring up a tweet I`ve got. Let`s see if I can read it here on the screen. This is Kelly Joseph. "I`m lily white but I agree with Ms. Ali that this right. She`s attacked my wife and my charity." She`s attacking everybody.
We have another tweet coming after that. "The critics all agree here. Everybody is taking side." (INAUDIBLE) says, "One of the rare times I can say I agree with Ann Coulter, LOL."
So people are getting worked up about it.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau which includes Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Tiffanie Davis Henry, psychotherapist and HLN contributor, Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", and Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
You guys are my A-team clinical behavior. We`ve done this, you guys - - we`ve done this before back with Jodi Arias. We`ve done this with other high profile trials.
My question, I`m going to go across the panel here with each of you. Ann asked the question, is he crazy? Is there some problem here, some diagnosable condition that makes him paranoid? Or is this just a sad case of an angry guy?
Cheryl Arutt?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, boy, Dr. Drew, I don`t know that there`s a diagnosis for being a jerk, but I think we have to consider that.
This is a guy who has -- he`s so cavalier about taking a life but cries about things that have to do with himself, which is a narcissistic kind of thing. But, you know, somebody who kind of feels like he should be able to do whatever he wants whenever he want, then has three drinks, on his way to get more and pulls out a --
PINSKY: Diagnosable or sad?
ARUTT: I don`t know. I think we`d have to say --
PINSKY: Pick one.
ARUTT: Sad but --
PINSKY: Tiffanie saying diagnosable.
ARUTT: What do you guys think?
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think, Cheryl, what we would do is we say defer, 79.9, is what we would say. Definitely he has the features of a lot of different things, the arrogance, the narcissism, the grandiosity, that sense of entitlement.
PINSKY: Aggression.
HENRY: Yes.
But for me the thing that stands out the most is he lacks common decency. I would have to think that if I felt in fear for my life and I just had to shoot someone, I would feel awful about it. It would eat me up inside because it`s not something that I would have wanted to do even if that person violated me. There`s something about it, killing someone else that would make me feel -- you don`t have that remorse from him.
PINSKY: You see him feeling awful. He throws up when he hears about it, but I say that`s him worrying about his own behind not about this poor kid he`s gotten.
So, Wendy, sick or sad?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, as Cheryl says, well, you know, it might be sick, it might be diagnosable, if we gave him a battery. But, Cheryl, what you said, he has these narcissistic features maybe even a little sociopathic with this lack of remorse and lack of respect for the rules like the rules don`t apply to him.
And I think -- this is the kind of guy -- I`m thinking it out loud here. I think he could be diagnosable. I think he could fall in to a number of categories.
PINSKY: All right. And, finally, Danine, you always have an interesting take on all of this. Take us home with it.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Look, I don`t know any of the big psychological words, but I know this guy was on a mission, Dr. Drew. He heard this loud music before he pulled into the parking lot and he parked next to this car. If I pulled in to a parking lot, and I saw skinheads and a Nazi flag, and all this stuff, I`m not parking there. I`m going to park somewhere else.
But he came to the problem because he thought he could address the problem the way he wanted to address it and that`s exactly what he did. So, I don`t know what his battery of psychological makeup is, but I know he came to this problem in order to resolve it his way.
PINSKY: And, Danine, you actually had a very personal experience you want to share with us about being raised with mixed messages and the kind of world you were raised in as opposed to that which your children is coming up in.
MANETTE: You know, I was the black girl. I was the integration in my elementary school. And I went through a myriad of just racial attacks that were from ignorant all the way up to downright hostile my entire young life. And, I have raised my children in a way to understand that the world is just not going to be equal for them.
I`ve given them names just so that they would not have an ethnic brand to them when their applications come across people`s desks. I have let them know that they`ve got to work twice as hard and be twice as good and twice as smart to get half the respect in this country. And that`s just the reality of their world for them. You know, I don`t try and give them the negativity, but it`s the reality of their life.
PINSKY: Jenny, your response.
HUTT: Yes. That is powerful, Danine, first of all. Second of all, I got to go back to what Tiffanie said about if she had to shoot somebody who had violated her, that she would still feel badly about it. I got to say, somebody violates me, actually violates me and I kill the mother you know whatter, I`m not going to feel bad about it, but in this case, these kids didn`t do anything, and he knows they didn`t actually have a gun.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: -- that you would still feel bad about it even if somebody violated you --
(CROSSTALK)
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., CLINICAL & FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: but you probably would.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Cry about the dog.
(LAUGHTER)
ARUTT: And that would be part of the trauma was feeling bad about having to do that.
PINSKY: I agree. I think there is definitely narcissistic traits. I think there is unrestrained aggression. I think I agree with those of you who said it might be a diagnosable condition. Certainly, there have been problems functioning as a result of his psychological makeup. Here they are. He`s going to be living it, hopefully, for a long, long time. Thank you, panel.
Next up, should doctors prescribe pot to children?
And later, we have an unbelievable video of what happens when a dad confronts a pedophile. Something you don`t want to miss. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without this medicine, I don`t know if my child could make it much longer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She now centers her hopes on medical marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve heard it has helped other children. Why can`t it help my child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He probably has maybe 40 to 50 seizures a day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the drugs we had her on, she was having 30, 40 seizures a day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some research suggests that ingesting the drug could reduce Luke`s (ph) seizures.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says his son, Hunter, went from spending most of his days suffering seizures to almost none.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do we go to the length of picking a schedule one controlled substance that has no known medical qualities to it?
PINSKY: We`re using schedule one drugs like opiates, like pain killers, what`s wrong with this schedule one drug if it helps somebody feel better?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t want to see children administered a drug that`s going to cause them to, bottom line, not be smart.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt. It is time for our series "Week of Weed." Twenty states have legalized medical marijuana, so far, and Colorado took the bold step of legalizing recreational pot last month.
Let`s bring back our panel, Ann, Segun, and Danine. And joining the panel is Greg Grunberg, actor and creator of the free mobile coupon app, Yowza. So, Greg, you had some very personal experience with medical marijuana. Share that with us.
GREG GRUNBERG, ACTOR: I do. I`m in a club that no one really wants to be in. My oldest son, Jake, has epilepsy. And for about ten years, we`ve been dealing with, you know, controlling his seizures. Seventy-five percent -- three million people in this country, by the way, have epilepsy. Three million to five million. That`s a lot of people. And Jake falls under the 25 percent that don`t respond to the first medication. So, when you met -- you know Jake.
PINSKY: Yes.
GRUNBERG: And when you meet people that have epilepsy and are living well with epilepsy, you can`t tell until you see them have a seizure. But, for ten years, we`ve been struggling with this. And there were times when he`s going to puberty and Jake`s had brain surgery because of this where he would have hundreds of seizures a day.
He didn`t have what`s called Rett Syndrome which is a very bad syndrome, but that syndrome happens to respond incredibly well -- Sanjay Gupta did a story on this to the CBD and the strains (ph). I have to say, the images that you`re showing with marijuana, it makes it seem like I`m sitting there with a bong getting high with my kid. You know, that is not the case. Jake has been --
PINSKY: No. Not most of the time, anyway.
GRUNBERG: But doctors are now prescribing --
(LAUGHTER)
GRUNBERG: Most of the time exactly. No, we do it for fun! Come on!
(CROSSTALK)
GRUNBERG: -- that`s not accurate.
PINSKY: Yes. And you use a liquid. You put something -- does he just take a liquid under his tongue, something like that?
GRUNBERG: Yes. It`s a strain, very, very powerful strain. It`s like 40 to one. So, there`s no THC, hardly any THC. So, it doesn`t get him high in any way, and it`s very powerful.
PINSKY: Let`s get the panel into this. So, Danine, should pediatricians be allowed to prescribe something helpful to their patients, yes or no?
MANETTE: Well, this is what I`m torn with, Dr. Drew. I`m definitely opposed to legalizing marijuana. I just am. And I see it being abused by people in criminal defense cases every single day. They come across to something like -- you know, I have a hangnail so I need my medication. So, I`m avidly opposed to that. But I`m also not a parent who`s dealing with a life-threatening disease. I would wrestle the bible away from the pope if it`s to save my child.
PINSKY: Right. That`s right.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What you`re describing, Danine -- what you`re describing, Danine, is bad medicine. Horrible practice of medicine, giving out a drug that`s unnecessary for somebody who doesn`t need it. Ann, what`s your opinion?
ANN COULTER, AUTHOR, "NEVER TRUST A LIBERAL OVER THREE."I think people like Greg should be really angry at all the fakers. I mean, as was just said, pot being distributed medically, you know, to skiers and snowboarders and everybody with a hangnail or anxiety. I would bet at least 90 percent of the alleged medical marijuana is being used recreationally.
PINSKY: But Ann, is that the problem --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: The problem with people prescribing it so horribly. That`s my thing.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Not as a practice. Segun.
(CROSSTALK)
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: -- because I`m about to agree with Ann Coulter on TV, so I`m looking for the lightning.
(LAUGHTER)
ODUOLOWU: But she`s got a great point. The people that abuse the medicinal factors of marijuana make it so that someone who really does need it suffers. I`m not for giving marijuana to kids, but if we`re going to legalize it, and they`re going to do real studies on it, if it`s going to help, like Greg said he`s not out there smoking joints with his son, but if this is going to help his child not only feel better, function better but be better, then we`re inhumane if we don`t look for alternative medicines.
PINSKY: Jenny?
(CROSSTALK)
GRUNBERG: Here`s the thing. Jake takes six to seven medications that are synthetic. I have no idea what they are. And in 20 years, there`s going to be a class action commercial on TV that says if your son ever took this or that, I know that. I don`t care. I need to keep his seizures under control. And CBD does it.
It gets him to sleep (ph) at night. It`s harmless. It`s like -- I mean, pot is -- I`ve got to tell you, I mean, you know, I don`t smoke it, but the fact that this strain helps my son sleep so he doesn`t have fatigue the next day, I`ll do --
(CROSSTALK)
GRUNBERG: I would do anything to have my son not have seizures.
PINSKY: Right. And Greg, I know you only use it vaporized in brownies.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: That`s OK. But the fact is doctors should be able to do what is helpful and restrict the practice of medicine. I have a real problem with that. The fact that we restrict research on it, I have a real problem with that, too. So, this is really something --
(CROSSTALK)
GRUNBERG: Yes. But things are changing.
ODUOLOWU: Wait, but Dr. Drew, as a medical health care professional, would you prescribe it?
PINSKY: I have prescribed it. Are you kidding? Of course, you`ll do whatever you got to do to help your patients. But it`s got to be done very skillfully and giving it to, as Ann said, to the snowboarders and everybody else that just has hangnail --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Jenny, last shot.
HUTT: I just want to say, Greg, my son had one seizure in his life and we went through the whole sleep study in the hospital to see if it happened again. I watched kids (inaudible), whatever you got to do to get it to stop, good for you. I fully support it.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Greg.
GRUNBERG: Can I say something, Drew? OK. I just want to say that this has to be done with -- you know, under the guidance of your doctor. This is not something that I just all of a sudden did willy-nilly.
PINSKY: Of course.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: And it`s not without risk.
GRUNBERG: -- the Cleveland Clinic, they`re all doing studies on this. It`s working.
PINSKY: It`s not without risks, though. There are risks -- hang on.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: There is risk for these kids. One thing is clear, the adolescent brain is adversely affected by cannabis and certain doses over certain periods of time. So we, as physicians, have to get the amount right so the therapeutic effect is optimized and the side effects are minimized. So, there is risk, let`s face it. But, it sounds like, Greg, the risk is well worth it. There`s risk from all medication.
Ahead, did a 16-year-old murder his mom with a dumbbell? We`ll hear from the teen next.
And a reminder, you can find us anytime on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. We`ll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I called 911. Then a police officer came here, and he suggested that I called her cell phone. And when I didn`t get any answer, and another police officer showed up and they went upstairs and -- they came down and told me that my mom had passed away. I don`t know who could have done this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny Hutt, Greg, Wendy, Tiffanie, and Anahita. That 16-year-old who has a history of mental illness and violence. He`s been severely mentally ill for a while, allegedly, broke through his adopted mother`s bolted bedroom door and bashed in her head with a dumbbell. And again, this kid was diagnosed with various psychiatric conditions, including a severe personality disorder, PTSD, mood disorder.
He was observed of had homicidal hallucinations and ideations such as his mom being -- sort of seeing his mom as a clown with her mouth filled with blood. Made a clay sculpture of his mother with a severed head. Tiffanie, you actually read the police report.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I did.
PINSKY: Shouldn`t that family have been very, very scared of this kid?
HENRY: And I think that they were. According to the police report and I have it right here, Dr. Drew. Mom did have a security bar on her door the night that he allegedly went in and attacked her. She had that bar on the door. He rigged the bar so he could get into the room and that`s when he attacked her.
He also, in addition to that history of the mood and the conduct disorder and the personality, the hallucinations, all that, we also know from the police report that he stopped taking his medication the Saturday before this all happened. And for me, Dr. Drew, if someone who`s worked with people with severe and persistent mental illness, we oftentimes see patients who feel better because they`re taking medication, then they feel like I don`t need it any more, right?
And they feel that way because they feel better and they feel better because they were on the medication. So, they don`t realize the good that the medication is doing to them -- for them until they get off of it.
PINSKY: Keeping people on the meds is a very challenging problem. Joining us on the phone, Brian White. He`s the teen`s uncle. Now, Brian, your sister-in-law`s death apparently has got more to it than we even hear about in the press. Can you tell us about it?
VOICE OF BRIAN WHITE, UNCLE OF TEEN SUSPECT: Well, I`m not sure which part you want to hear. The biggest thing -- I mean, are you talking background or the event itself?
PINSKY: Apparently, it was so gruesome, I mean, so brutal that she couldn`t even be identified. That`s sort of a feature that`s been left out of this story. That`s terrible.
WHITE: Yes. That`s something we found out last night after the coroner`s report was completed. And the officers had to infer identity and then confirm it with dental records. So the police report -- she was bashed in the back of the head, but apparently, it was quite thorough.
GRUNBERG: Had he ever done anything illegal before that put him away? I mean, was he ever incarcerated or in the hospital before?
WHITE: He`d spent over a year inpatient at a number of different facilities. He had been -- I think he had a fourth-degree assault charge for something related to a fight at school. But I don`t know the situation. He just did community service for that. But he pulled a knife on his mom in the past.
PINSKY: Why did the system fail him or did it?
WHITE: You know, we`ve talked about that a bit, and we don`t think it did. He had access to as much mental health care as he was able to accept. He only left the hospital when he was deemed safe by the administrators and by his mom. But she was definitely scared of him. I mean, security bar on the door says that.
PINSKY: Wendy, I`m always bothered that we don`t have some sort of regulation in place that requires kids to take their medication as a condition for going to school. Why don`t we have something like that, Wendy?
WALSH: Well, even if we had the regulation, how can you enforce the behavior? I mean, you know, people even in mental health facilities try to hide their drugs or pretend to take it, put it under their tongue. I mean, so hard to enforce this stuff. And again, Dr. Drew, you know, you have to break the law before you can turn your child over to the criminal justice system. So, it`s not like the mom can say, well, I think he`s going to hurt me. So sad.
PINSKY: Brian, I just want to say so sad. I mean, thank you for joining us. Just our heart goes out to your family. I just hate the fact that our penitentiary system has become the mental health delivery system, not just of last resort but of majority patients with mental health issues.
GRUNBERG: Yes. Brian, as a parent of a child, you know, three boys, my heart just absolutely aches for your family. And it sounds like you were trying -- everyone was trying their best, you know, to keep -- to get him well. Is there anything that we, as parents, can take from this? I mean, it sounds like you did everything you could.
PINSKY: I`m going to have to leave it at that. This topic comes up frequently on this show, which is, again, I think if somebody`s got mental illness and they`re not taking their medication, you got to take immediate action, do whatever you got to do.
Next up a dad catches a pedophile masturbating in front of his daughter and punches him in the face. We`ll hear from that man after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and our panel. A father walking his five- year-old to the school bus allegedly sees a man in a car staring at his daughter. He talked to reporter from CNN affiliate, KATU, about what happened next. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wanted to walk around to see what he was doing or if he was from around here. And he had his pants down around his knees and, you know, doing everything parent`s nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you show me how you hit him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I hit him two or three times with my hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeremy`s knuckles are still red from the impact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with our panel, Greg, Wendy, Tiffanie, and Anahita. Now, Anahita, here`s my question --
(APPLAUSE)
PINSKY: Yes. Slow clap. I agree with you, Greg.
(CROSSTALK)
GRUNBERG: Let me tell you something, this guy is my hero. This guy should be given an award. This is every parent`s nightmare. I don`t know if I would have been able to stop.
PINSKY: I`m with you. I`m with you. However, my wife was assaulted two nights ago. We talked about it last night, and I had the same impulse. I wanted to get this guy and throttle him. But Anahita, would I get in big trouble for that because this guy have a liability?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You could, absolutely. And I remember hearing your wife`s story and that is so disgusting. So, of course, we`re going to be like, oh, yes, he took matters into his own hands. But this guy could face assault charges. So, although you think he`s a hero, you probably shouldn`t take the law into your own hands. He should have called the police --
PINSKY: Is it worth it?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Anahita, well, we did all that and nothing happened. So, is it worth it to take the risk for those assault charges? Is that enough of a liability to take on to get this guy to stop in front of your kids?
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: -- if he was going to harm your kids, then absolutely knock him out. You could probably even --
PINSKY: Tiffanie says yes.
(CROSSTALK)
HENRY: I don`t think that you just hit somebody for whatever, but I think that if it`s a pedophile, if this is someone -- he`s probably been lurking around the school bus for I don`t know how long.
PINSKY: He`s going to hurt somebody else.
HENRY: He`s going to hurt someone else. And I guarantee you, he will think twice before he does this again.
PINSKY: Oh, Wendy says no --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Wendy, the contrarian. Go ahead, Wendy.
WALSH: The average pedophile assaults more than a hundred victims in the course of their career. If you want to get this guy off the street, you get his license plate number and you call 911. Now, he`s still out. He`s running around somewhere. What did this do but make us cheer?
PINSKY: All right. Got to go. Last Call --
GRUNBERG: This sent a lesson. This sent a lesson to him. And that`s important. This also tells everybody else out there, you don`t mess with him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Time for the "Last Call." And Jenny, the "Last Call" goes to a more positive tweet here. Let`s put that up. It is from Gayle Whitford. She says, "I raised my children to see no color and love with their heart. Made two very special people. It has to be thought." I know you agree with that.
HUTT: Of course, yes.
PINSKY: "Right This Minute" starts right this minute.
END
