Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
"Loud Music Murder" Jury Still Deliberating
Aired February 13, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN. Tonight, all eyes on the Florida courtroom in the case of murder in Jacksonville. A 45-year-old man guns down a youth when they argue over the kid`s loud music at a gas station. After shooting the youth three times, he speeds off, never bothering to call 911.
We obtain the stunning 911 call and secret surveillance video. In a stunning trial strategy move, Dunn takes the stand in his own defense. Did it work?
Bombshell tonight. At this hour, the case is in the hands of a Florida jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jordan Davis...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! Somebody`s shooting!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... 17 forever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`m going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kill you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not even not guilty. He is innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kill me, beat me...
You`re not going to kill me you son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A verdict that speaks for the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that verdict is not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty as charged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now it`s in the jury`s hand, hoping they come back with the right decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
We are in a verdict watch here at HLN. We are live and taking your calls from the courthouse. Guilty, not guilty? Believe it or not, day two, the jury is still deliberating? What`s the hold-up? They`ve had one question after the next after the next after the next.
Well, it all started last night. If you`ll recall, right here, we were talking about the jury had requested video. What video? Well, let`s see the video, Liz. First of all, we say the video from the gas station. We call that inside the Gate gas station, where Michael Dunn sent his fiancee in to get more booze. This is the video. Rerack it, please.
What you`re seeing is police. You`re seeing the police as they get to the Gate gas station that evening. That is the additional video. That`s the only probative video out of quite a substantial bit of video. But the judge gave them all the video that there was, all their surveillance video. This is the only other thing there was to see.
Now, I`m going to show you the rest as our program goes on for you to see that there`s nothing else for them to see. Liz, put it in a little box down, so they can see what the jury saw.
So the only other thing they can learn from that video was when the police came in. I also discovered the surveillance video is not time-coded, so they can`t tell what time the police got there. So I don`t know how much that helped them, but they got to see it. But that was just the beginning.
Straight to the courthouse. Joining me is CNN correspondent Martin Savidge. That was just the beginning of the jury questions today. What did they want next?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they had a lot of questions, Nancy. Nice to see you again. You mentioned that video. The other thing they wanted was a mannequin, a dummy. They referred to it...
GRACE: You mean Bendy (ph)?
SAVIDGE: ... as Bendy, apparently -- Bendy. Exactly. Thanks very much. And Bendy had wooden dowels that had been used -- this was a demonstrative tool used inside the courtroom to demonstrate the trajectory of the bullets going into Jordan Davis`s body. They wanted to have that mannequin brought back so they could look at it directly in the jury deliberation room. The problem was, this was not really evidence, it was a demonstration tool.
There was a lot of discussion by the judge, also then there was discussion by Angela Corey and by the defense. The defense finally pushed back and said, You know what, Judge? I don`t want that going back there. The judge said, Well, it had to be a unanimous decision, so I`m telling jury, no, they don`t get Bendy. And they didn`t.
GRACE: So bottom line -- Martin Savidge with me, everybody, at the courthouse, and we`re taking your calls and about to go out to the lines right now. But the reality is that in trials, in criminal trials, unless an object has been entered into evidence -- it could be that videotape, it could be a murder weapon, it could be a number of things -- unless it`s actually been admitted into evidence, the jury can`t have it.
Now, that was a demonstrative technique used often. I`ve used them many, many times. They`re dummies. This one is named Bendy. They couldn`t have it because it was not allowed into evidence.
Once again, you`re seeing that video. I want them to also see the video that shows absolutely nothing, Liz. It`s just -- you know, I want them to see what the jury saw.
Out to Larry Hennan (ph), reporter with "The Florida Times-Union," also in court today. I`m actually stunned the jury hasn`t come back with a verdict.
Larry`s satellite`s down. Let me go back to him. Marty, I`m surprised the jury hasn`t come back with a verdict yet.
SAVIDGE: Well, you`re not alone. I mean, there are a lot of people who are saying that it really shouldn`t take this long.
Going back to that video, I was talking to the defense attorney, and Cory Strolla (ph) is pointing out, he says, it`s not so much what the jurors may see. He`s hoping it`s what they hear.
He says, by the way, that`s the reason the jury wants this video. He encouraged them to see all of the video, not the edited portion in court. He says they may hear witnesses after the shooting mention something, captured on the microphone, about maybe Jordan Davis, describing how he was acting, whether he got out of the vehicle, and whether or not he had a weapon. He says that was cut off by the prosecution when they ended the tape. He wants the jurors to hear it all.
GRACE: Out to Clark Goldband. What were the other questions, Clark?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, there were quite a few questions, and as you just said there were...
GRACE: Oh, wait. Clark? Clark?
GOLDBAND: Yes?
GRACE: Look, look, look. I want you to look at your monitor.
GOLDBAND: OK. I see.
GRACE: That`s some of the video. The jury sat there, I guess, and watched 30, 45 minutes of that...
GOLDBAND: Yes. Inside...
GRACE: ... where you see people going in...
GOLDBAND: ... the Gate gas station.
GRACE: ... and getting cigarettes. OK, go ahead.
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy. Some requests were made for information that you wouldn`t expect. Like, for example, the jury wanted a dry erase board and an easel. Also, it was over eight hours into jury deliberation, Nancy, that one of the jurors apparently noticed that they were missing multiple pages of jury instructions.
Now, there`s been a lot of speculation about that. Could that mean the jury is still far apart, or could it mean they`re close and finally just going through the charges one by one? We`ll ultimately find out when the verdict comes back. But Nancy...
GRACE: Go ahead.
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy, I...
GRACE: I was about to say what intrigued me the most was the last request for -- about exhibit 201.
GOLDBAND: 201. Yes, that`s right. And that was one of the notes that was written trying to explain how someone was lunging in the car. You see that "black Friday" letter on your screen. "When I turned back to my left, the guy who was advancing on me had apparently" -- so he`s explaining the story of what he says was the perceived threat. Now, Nancy, we`re doing something...
GRACE: Hold on. Let`s -- let`s go through it word by word.
GOLDBAND: Sure.
GRACE: I`m going to throw to it. Let`s see it, guys. There`s -- specifically, the jury wanted to know about this. "When I turned back to my left, the guy who was advancing on me had apparently seen me go for my own weapon and dove back inside the SUV."
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Heather Hanson, New York, Jeff Gold, defense attorney, out of New York. Also with me, Mo Ivory. She`s an attorney and a radio personality. And tonight, taking the side of "stand your ground,"Frank Taaffe is joining us.
OK, first of all, out to you, Frank Taaffe. Did you see what your man wrote in that letter? He writes that Jordan Davis is out of the car, but he sees him, Michael Dunn, go for the gun, and he dives back into the car.
FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Sure, I did. And you know, we`re all awaiting the verdict. And as you know, Nancy, it comes from the Latin word...
GRACE: What are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Address the letter!
TAAFFE: It means to say the truth. The letter is consistent with his police interviews and the whole scene. Now, you talked about...
GRACE: I never heard him say...
TAAFFE: You go back to the dummy...
GRACE: ... that in the police interviews. He never said that.
TAAFFE: He did say that.
GRACE: No, he didn`t.
TAAFFE: OK, well, it was just a nuance, just like in the Zimmerman case.
GRACE: He did not say that!
TAAFFE: He came from the bushes. He came out from the bushes -- listen, the story is consistent. Jordan Davis advanced on him.
GRACE: He did not say that.
TAAFFE: You know how we know? It`s evidence that`s in -- it`s already in evidence.
GRACE: No, Taaffe.
TAAFFE: The fact of the trajectory...
GRACE: I don`t even know what you`re saying!
TAAFFE: ... of the bullets...
GRACE: What is already in evidence? What are you even talking about, what`s already in evidence?
TAAFFE: I`m talking about...
GRACE: Put the letter back up, Liz.
TAAFFE: OK...
GRACE: Put the letter up!
TAAFFE: You had three witnesses that stated that Jordan Davis...
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) collect himself!
TAAFFE: ... never got out of the car, OK?
GRACE: Martin Savidge...
TAAFFE: We know he got out of the car.
GRACE: ... look at this.
TAAFFE: We know he got out of the car.
GRACE: What does this mean, Martin?
SAVIDGE: Well, Nancy, the jurors already have this letter. What they wanted to know was when was this letter written. It was said back to them it was written last June. And the purpose of this letter -- and it was introduced, actually, by the prosecution.
It was when Dunn was on the stand. Dunn`s recounting what he said happened that day, in which he said Jordan Davis got out of the SUV. But this is why the prosecution brought the letter up and said, Well, wait a minute. In this letter which you wrote and this was supposed to be your account of events, you say he dove back in the SUV.
So he was trying to impeach his testimony there on the stand. That`s the purpose of the letter.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, I agree with Martin Savidge. What`s interesting to me, Matt Zarrell, is I don`t recall him on the stand talking about the boy being scared and diving back into the Durango when he sees Dunn pull a gun on him.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, in both his testimony, his police interview, his police statements, statements to other people, he has been very consistent that Jordan Davis was coming out of the car when he started -- when he shot him. This is very different, saying that Jordan Davis was driving back into the car before Dunn even grabbed his gun.
GRACE: See, that is the point I`m trying to make, Matt. It`s very, very different. The significance is actually not even nuanced, as Frank Taaffe just said. Matt, explain why this is so important.
ZARRELL: Because part of the issue here is if Dunn`s self-defense claim is true, then Davis -- Jordan Davis was coming at him. If Jordan Davis is diving away from Dunn, then who was really the threat, Jordan Davis or Michael Dunn?
GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Mo Ivory, Heather Hansen, Jeff Gold. Also with me, Frank Taaffe. All right, Mo, weigh in.
MO IVORY, ATTORNEY AND RADIO PERSONALITY: Yes, you know, I love how an inconsistency all of a sudden becomes a nuance when you`re trying to make a case for a killer. It`s always that way. We know that...
TAAFFE: It`s the same thing in Zimmerman!
IVORY: ... his statements -- be quiet. We know that his statements are inconsistent...
TAAFFE: I`m not going to keep quiet!
IVORY: ... and the reason why the jury...
TAAFFE: I`m telling the truth!
IVORY: ... is asking...
TAAFFE: You`re not!
IVORY: Excuse me!
TAAFFE: You`re talking trash again!
IVORY: The reason why the jury is asking for...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Taaffe, your name is not Mo. Your name is not Mo Ivory, all right? You`ve had your chance. You dropped the ball. You bungled. You couldn`t get your sentence straight...
TAAFFE: I didn`t drop anything.
GRACE: ... so you`re trying to figure out what to say. Now, Mo, it`s your turn. Please finish.
IVORY: So what I`m saying is that the reason why the jury is asking for the letter is because they are probably talking about the inconsistencies. They are probably trying to make a case with each other.
GRACE: Right.
IVORY: There may be some that don`t think there are inconsistencies and some that do, and they want to bring this letter in to show yet another inconsistency while they`re deliberating. I think it is a great thing for the prosecution that they asked for this letter. And I know that tomorrow, we`ll get a verdict and the verdict will be guilty.
GRACE: All right, Jeff Gold, you`re smiling. Why?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look...
GRACE: What about this is amusing to you?
GOLD: What...
GRACE: I`m just curious. I`m not judging, I`m just really interested.
GOLD: I think Frank just amuses me. But aside from that, look, this jury has got something to hang their hat on. There`s four days that the police didn`t look for the weapon. There are three minutes that the SUV went away...
IVORY: What weapon?
GOLD: ... and came back. There`s two individuals...
GRACE: Whoa! Wait!
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: ... involved in here...
GRACE: Hold on, Gold!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What weapon?
TAAFFE: Let him talk!
GRACE: The crime scene techs...
TAAFFE: Hey, is your name Gold (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: ... didn`t see a weapon -- don`t make me cut your mike, please. We`re in day two of deliberations. You know, I got to save my energy for tomorrow, Taaffe. But Gold, the crime scene tech didn`t see a gun. The witnesses there at the gas station didn`t see a gun. The boys in the car say there was no gun. And even Dunn says, Maybe I imagined it, all right?
All right, Hansen, your turn.
HEATHER HANSEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I just have to say that I think that the jury is going through this case with method and that`s because many of them -- there`s a software developer on the jury. There`s a software programmer on the jury. I think it`s in their nature to go step by step. And I think that right now, they`re judging Dunn`s credibility. I think while the defense had to put him on, he had major issues with his credibility. And I`m hopeful -- I agree that...
GRACE: Well, you know what? I`m glad that you all of you defense attorneys are so convinced that Michael Dunn is such a peace lover, kind of a peacenik, because, Matt Zarrell, we got an entirely different story from a neighbor. Isn`t that true?
ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, we`ve obtained video from a neighbor who claims that Dunn solicited him to kill or find someone to kill an individual for him. We are still working to confirm that report right now.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen to what his own neighbor had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES HENDRIX, DUNN`S FORMER NEIGHBOR: (INAUDIBLE) he`s got to go. You know anybody that will take care of him for me? And I responded, What do you mean, take care of him? Do you want him beat up? What? He said, No, I want him dead. The guy`s a liar, blah blah blah.
And I said, No, I don`t know anybody and I`m not interested in this conversation. My alarms went up then, and I said, This guy`s not right in the head. This is about a legal problem, and he wants some guy knocked off and he`s asking me to -- you know, do I know anybody that will do a hit, or will I do a hit on somebody. And I don`t know where that came from.
I notified the Port St. Lucie Police Department that somebody had solicited me to do a hit on from Vero -- on somebody from Vero Beach, and they seemed completely disinterested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a conspiracy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was, like, clear and present danger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Dunn doesn`t have prove anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) just to scare them off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not going to kill me, you son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was shooting to kill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your verdict in this case will not bring Jordan Davis back to life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are in a verdict watch here at HLN as we wait for a Florida jury to hand down a verdict, a true verdict in the case against Michael Dunn, the 47-year-old software developer on trial for the shooting death of an unarmed youth. Over what? The kid was playing loud rap music at a gas station, and Dunn lost it.
Now, he backtracks, never called 911. A day later, when police finally track him down, he claimed he saw what he thought was a shotgun in Jordan Davis`s car. There was no shotgun. One was never recovered. No other witness saw it. And Dunn ultimately tells police he may have even imagined the shotgun.
I want to talk right now, as we are waiting for a Florida jury to bring home a verdict, about what the neighbor said. Now, this neighbor, Charles Hendrix, is Michael Dunn`s former neighbor. The jury will never hear any of this, but we will.
Take a listen to what the neighbor said. He claims Dunn tried to get him, Hendrix, to be a hit man or find him a hit man. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENDRIX: Did I ever hear him say that he wanted to shoot somebody? Not directly. But there were several times where he made comments that, I can`t wait for somebody to try something with me when I have my gun.
When I heard about this incident with Michael Dunn, I said, There you go. I knew it. Sooner or later, he`s going to kill somebody. Michael Dunn got infuriated that somebody would not obey his commands and he lost control.
Do I believe that he wanted to kill that young man? No, I don`t believe that. I think he lost control, and once the bullets came out of the barrel of that gun, he couldn`t take it back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was the neighbor, Charles Hendrix. And there is more. Take a listen to what Dunn`s former neighbor has to say. Now, remember, the jury knows nothing of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENDRIX: And I heard about the incident on the TV, that a youth had been shot over loud music. And I looked into it because I`m concerned with gun violence in this country. And when I saw it was Michael Dunn, I said, There you go. I knew it. I knew it was going to happen sooner or later.
And my instant reaction was he had tried to tell somebody what to do and they didn`t comply because that`s the type of personality he had. By God, you`re going to do what I tell you to do. And I could see this scenario playing down where somebody had said, No, I`m not going to do what you told me to do, and him first getting loud and then, you know, trying to exhibit his physical presence by getting out of the car and showing people how big I am. And then when that still didn`t work, I could see him pulling out a gun and shooting somebody just because they had defied him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight to the courthouse. Standing by, CNN correspondent Martin Savidge. Martin, the jury will never hear what we know the neighbor said about him, how he had had problems with litigation at one point. It was a civil matter. And he approached the neighbor about finding a hit man, said, Man, I just hope the day somebody comes after me and I`ve got a gun. And there`s more, which I`m going to show the viewers in a few moments. But the jury will not know any of that.
SAVIDGE: No, not this jury, although others have pointed out that if this were to be a hung trial in any way and they had to redo it all over again, it is quite possible they might hear it then. And this neighbor, by the way, was supposedly on the witness list to testify, but he was never called. So you`re right, this jury is not going to hear any of that...
GRACE: Well, you know, Martin...
SAVIDGE: ... and you`re right, there was a whole lot more to come.
GRACE: This is what confounds me. My theory when I was a prosecutor as I`ve got one swing at the ball. This is it, give it all I`ve got. When the defense brought in good character, they brought in reputation witnesses to say Michael Dunn`s such a great guy. That opens the door under the law for the state to then bring in bad reputation or bad acts. They had this. I wonder why they didn`t bring the neighbor on.
SAVIDGE: And no one has given us that answer.
GRACE: Out to you, Frank Taaffe, Mo Ivory, Heather Hansen and Jeff Gold. So you`ve got the neighbor who was on the witness list...
TAAFFE: You know why? I`m going to answer your question.
GRACE: Obviously -- no, I`m right...
TAAFFE: It`s prejudicial!
GRACE: ... in the middle of a question, Taaffe. I haven`t even finished it yet.
TAAFFE: Sorry.
GRACE: Stand down, man! So here`s your guy going up to a neighbor, talking about how he wants to shoot somebody.
TAAFFE: Right. Two things. That was introduced by the attorney for the Davis family, number one. No collusion there. Number two, the introduction...
IVORY: Collusion?
TAAFFE: ... of that tape...
GRACE: It was never introduced in court.
TAAFFE: ... would be prejudicial...
GRACE: It was never introduced anywhere.
TAAFFE: It would be too prejudicial! It would be too prejudicial! It would be character assassination, and I think, according to you guys...
GRACE: I am not asking you for a legal opinion, Taaffe.
TAAFFE: You know what? I want to go back to a -- let me -- let me...
GRACE: I`m telling you that this guy is violent.
IVORY: Right. Absolutely. He`s violent.
TAAFFE: OK. I want to go back. You want to bring out this letter about a nuance. I want to go back to the dummy, OK? You know what`s important about that, why they wanted to know about that? Because they wanted to see where the entry wounds where. And in Mr. Strolla`s (ph) closing, he said one of the wounds was to the upper groin, OK, of Jordan Davis. And I`m going to tell you something. If those bullets fit, you must acquit.
GRACE: Oh, dear Lord in heaven!
(CROSSTALK)
IVORY: Nancy -- Nancy...
GRACE: OK, very quickly, Clark Goldband, the viewers have voted. What do you have?
GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy, for the first time ever here on a verdict watch, we`re doing a flash poll. Go on right now, Facebook.com/nancygracehln. Here`s what we`ve got so far. Do you think the jury will find Dunn guilty in the murder of Jordan Davis? Overwhelmingly, 85 to 15, yes. But guess what? It only takes one juror in that room.
And we will have an update on this for you later in the show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL DUNN, DEFENDANT: He says this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is going down now.
ERIN WOLFSON, PROSECUTOR: That`s the phrase this defendant said made him fear for his life. Did he tell the detectives that? Nope.
DUNN: He threatened my life like a man.
WOLFSON: And he told detectives, I don`t know how many kids were in that car? He used the word kids.
DUNN: The door opens and this young man gets out.
WOLFSON: The bullets popped out that plastic does not aligned on the specific Durango. There is no way this plastic would have been where it was if Jordan Davis was shot outside that car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and in a verdict watch here at HLN as we wait for a jury to hand down a verdict.
You are seeing now more of the video this jury requested to see today. They had 45 minutes to an hour`s worth of video looking at this. Shoppers going up and down the aisles at the little mini mart. Nothing probative as it relates to the shooting death of teen Jordan Davis.
We are live and taking your calls.
Richard in North Carolina. Hi, Richard, what`s your question?
RICHARD, CALLED FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Yes, Nancy, I have a question on -- why wasn`t his girlfriend being asked if -- why didn`t she call the police when she got to the hotel and also if she did, is she going to be convicted or charged as far as an accessory if he`s found guilty?
GRACE: Good question. Out to Larry Hannan joining us, reporting with the "Florida Times Union" in court today. He`s joining us from Jacksonville.
Larry, thanks for being with us.
LARRY HANNAN, REPORTER, FLORID TIMES UNION: Thanks for having me.
GRACE: What about the girlfriend Rhonda? Rhonda Rouer.
HANNAN: I don`t believe they are going to charge Rhonda Rouer. Quite frankly she`s the key witness putting Michael Dunn away and I don`t really think the -- I don`t think the state attorney is going to go after her because it`s Michael Dunn they want and she`s basically helped put his head in a platter for them.
GRACE: Larry, why do you say she`s a key witness? Because I agree with you, between that and that surveillance tape where she`s inside when the shots ring out and she`s not there when the shots occur. She runs outside. But why do you say she`s the state`s key witness? I`m very intrigued by that.
HANNAN: I think because she was -- she was the first person Michael Dunn talked to after he shot Jordan Davis and he never told Rhonda Rouer that Jordan Davis had a gun. They drove back the hotel, they spent the night there, they drove back to Brevard County the next day and at no point, according to Rhonda Rouer, did Michael Dunn say he had a gun. And I was watching the jurors when she testified and that had a big impact on them.
GRACE: Really? Why do you say that? What did they do when they heard that? Because she broke down in tears when she said -- when they said, did he ever say the kids had a gun and she broke down crying and said no.
HANNAN: I think -- I think the fact that she clearly didn`t want to be there, that she felt awful testifying against her fiancee but, you know, she basically had no choice because she`s already told cops that. I mean, the reluctant witness, as you know as a former prosecutor, is often the strongest witness. She has no reason to lie and I think that gave her credibility with the jury because she said what she said and they are still engaged.
GRACE: You know -- with me, everybody, Larry Hannon reporter with the "Florida Times Union," in court today.
Larry, again, thank you for being with us.
Larry, I`m really interested to hear how the jury is reacting. What do you think is going on?
HANNAN: I`m not sure what is going on, Nancy, with that. It`s -- you know, I think the jury is being very thorough, being very -- they`re looking over everything. I think they`re taking what the defense lawyer said to look at everything and not take what the prosecutor said seriously but, you know, it`s really only been one full day and a couple of hours into a second day we -- between 10 and 12 hours depending on how much you count for taking breaks.
And it`s a very complicated case. So I don`t know if I`d read this time as a good sign for Dunn or a good sign for the prosecution.
GRACE: With me, Larry Hannon.
Everybody, we are taking your calls.
Now to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner and forensic pathologist.
Dr. Gallagher, thank you for being with us. I want to talk very quickly about the injuries. The one gunshot that went through his side was almost straight on but the two to the boy`s groin were from behind. And I`m just trying to figure out -- I guess there is no way that we could determine which one came first, but that one that went through his right side basically ricocheted around his body.
Let`s see that autopsy graphic again, please. It went through multiple organs, tore through the liver, both lungs, aorta and more.
What can we learn from the trajectory path of those two lower gunshot wounds?
DR. TIM GALLAGHER, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, we -- as a medical examiner, we are only interested in the position of the victim and not necessarily the position of the shooter. So the trajectory would give us an indication as to the position of the victim when he was shot.
GRACE: And what does it tell you that the bullets came in from behind and went through the groin?
GALLAGHER: Well, it says that the victim`s legs were facing away from the shooter at the time he was shooting.
GRACE: You know, that is interesting. I want to go back out to the lawyers. Mo Ivory, Heather Hanson, Jeff Gold, Frank Taaffe -- out to you Heather Hanson.
That shows that Jordan Davis was trying to get away from Michael Dunn.
HEATHER HANSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, and I think that`s why --
FRANK TAAFFE: Why would he be getting away?
HANSON: One of the jury`s questions.
GRACE: Because shots were firing. I want to hear Heather Hanson, please.
Go ahead, Heather.
HANSON: I think that`s why that was one of the jury`s questions, Nancy. I think that they`re trying to reconcile Dunn`s testimony against the forensic evidence. Now it depends whether those shots were the first shots fired or the last shots fired. I think that -- the understanding is it was the later shots fired as the car was driving away. But this jury is working very hard to try to reconcile what Dunn has said on the stand to what the evidence shows. And I think they`re having a hard time doing so to be perfectly honest.
GRACE: Jeff Gold?
JEFF GOLD, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Really, I mean, that is a hard piece of evidence for the defense because it looks like he`s laying down on that --
GRACE: You`re darn right.
GOLD: It`s a hard piece of evidence to overcome and they didn`t have a witness to say contra to it.
GRACE: Mo, another thing, and I`m going to get to you, Taaffe, but after he fires the first round of bullets, he`s not afraid he`s going to get shot. He gets out of the car. I can no more imagine my father doing something like this than the man in the moon. He gets out of the car and gets down like Rambo on one knee and takes a police stance and continues shooting at the kids. They`re trying to get away.
(CROSSTALK)
MO IVORY, ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: And he`s still shooting at them.
IVORY: Exactly. And I think that that goes so much to the type of person that Michael Dunn is. That it wasn`t enough to shoot into the vehicle and have these kids fleeing for their lives, but he gets out and, like you said, Rambo style, starts shooting again. Because what he was trying to do was kill the kids in the car. And that`s what you do when you`ve shot a couple of times and you`re not really certain that you`ve killed somebody, you get out, you get in a stance.
TAAFFE: Really? How do you know that?
IVORY: And you start shooting more and more. And it`s so evident that that`s what Michael Dunn was doing.
TAAFFE: Really?
IVORY: The premeditation is there. The anger.
TAAFFE: Really?
IVORY: The intent is felt. Really.
TAAFFE: You were there?
IVORY: All of that is there for a guilty verdict. And you know -- I mean, it`s -- to me, it`s a very open and shut case.
GRACE: So again, Frank Taaffe, what do you make of his neighbor who has no conviction, the state found him. You said it`s been introduced -- it hasn`t been introduced anywhere. And it`s not come into evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
TAAFFE: The state never found him.
GRACE: The neighbor comes forward --
TAAFFE: The family attorney reached out to him.
GRACE: -- and says that he talked to him about hiring a hitman.
TAAFFE: Nancy, first of all, you got that all wrong. John Phillips, the attorney for the Davis family, reached out to him and put that --
GRACE: And where do you think John Phillips got the information, Taaffe?
TAAFFE: Let`s be clear with this, OK?
GRACE: Whatever you want to argue about where it came from.
TAAFFE: I worry about this when this case first --
GRACE: What matters is what he said. That is how Phillips knew about it.
TAAFFE: Right.
GRACE: I mean, he was on the state`s witness list.
TAAFFE: It was from 14 years ago.
GRACE: You know what?
TAAFFE: It`s all hearsay.
GRACE: Liz, roll the video --
TAAFFE: You know what?
GRACE: Roll the video, Liz.
TAAFFE: It`s hearsay. Hearsay.
GRACE: Of Charles Hendrix.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES HENDRIX, MICHAEL DUNN`S FORMER NEIGHBOR: I called the police because he knew he was wrong, quite frankly. He knew he was wrong and he figured well, I`ll take the chance and I`m going to get away with it. I`ll take the chance that nobody saw anything. Once it hit the news that they had -- you know, a description of the vehicle, he knew he was going to get caught. So of course he`s going to turn himself in.
I believe that when he left, he thought that he was going to get away with it and if somebody hadn`t gotten a description of the vehicle and license number, he would have never come forward. There is no question he would have never come forward and said, hey, I didn`t mean for this to happen but it happened. There is no way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN GUY, ASSISTANT STATE PROSECUTOR: There is shotgun in the car. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?
WOLFSON: Did the defendant ever tell you he saw a gun in that red SUV?
RHONDA ROUER, MICHAEL DUNN`S FIANCE: No.
CORY STROLLA, MICHAEL DUNN`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This man has a reputation for peacefulness, not only in his community at home but at work.
WOLFSON: This defendant may have forever silenced Jordan Davis but he cannot silence --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did you first hear about the shooter involved with Jordan Davis.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first thing, no, it didn`t happen. That it was on the news. My husband came into the bedroom and told me Michael had shot somebody and my first thought was, he always wanted to shoot somebody. But I didn`t know it was a young boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN. A jury is deliberating the fate of 47-year-old software creator Michael Dunn. He is charged in the shooting death of an unarmed black youth, Jordan Davis. They had an argument over the kids` loud music at a gas station.
We are live and taking your calls.
Straight back to Martin Savidge, what time -- the jury came in this morning, they were early -- oh, Marty`s satellite down.
Out to Larry Hannan, the jury was early this morning. They seemed very anxious to get started.
HANNAN: That`s right, Nancy. They were supposed to start at 10:00 but they were all in their seats at 9:30 and the judge basically shrugged and said well, I guess you`re here you might as well get started. So they went -- they went back half an hour early. Now they are sequestered so they didn`t -- it`s not like they all drove themselves in, but I guess for whatever reason the bailiff brought them in early after they ate breakfast so they seemed ready to go and ready to work.
GRACE: You are seeing a shot of Michael Dunn in the courtroom. It`s amazing to me how much they have him dressed up to look like Mr. Rogers, from "Mr. Rogers` Neighborhood?" He looks very, very different than he did the night of the shooting. I mean they`ve got him totally decked out. It`s a different sweater every day to make him -- you know, I saw this first in the Menendez trial when you try to make them look more approachable and try to humanize the defendant.
To Seth Meyers, clinical psychologist joining me out of L.A.
Seth, thanks for being with us.
Seth, I`m really interested in what the neighbors say. This particular neighbor and his wife, when they heard about the shooting, I always find this interesting in criminal cases, they went, well, he always wanted to shoot somebody.
SETH MEYERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, you know, hearing that was so interesting to me because what really strikes me the most about this case is this was a very angry guy who I bet spent much of his life looking for a fight. And I think that`s what he got that night.
You know, there`s no way psychologically that I can understand how this was self-defense for him. The truth is, he`s the one with the gun, he`s the one who didn`t go immediately after to the police. He`s the one who instructed these boys to turn their music down.
How on earth was that his role or his responsibility? Why was it his job to do that?
GRACE: You know, it`s just always interesting in so many homicide cases that I`ve tried myself, there`s always a friend, a relative, a neighbor that went, I knew it was going to happen, I knew it was going to happen, and that`s just what these neighbors say.
Out to the lines, Mary in Virginia -- Mary, in Georgia. Hi, Mary, what`s your question?
MARY, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Yes, hi, Nancy. I`m wondering why the prosecution did not elaborate on the number of seconds that it took between the rounds of shots that Michael Dunn fired, particularly that last set?
I counted at least 10 seconds, maybe 15 seconds. Clearly he had time to think before he -- he pulled that trigger. Those kids were trying to get away from Michael Dunn. Doesn`t that go to premeditation if he had that long to think?
GRACE: Mary in Georgia, you are absolutely correct.
Liz, let me get the video of when Rhonda Rouer is in the gas station. I want to hear it. I want the viewers to -- tell me when you`ve got that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god, somebody is shooting. Somebody is shooting out of their car. Oh, my god somebody is shooting. Somebody is shooting out of their car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is just what Mary is talking about. Premeditation. And of course under the law, the law says that premeditation can be formed in the twinkling of an eye, in the time it takes you to raise a gun and pull the trigger. So in the time that she, Mary in Georgia has pointed out, was time for premeditation, typically that`s murder one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HENDRIX: What are you going to do? You know anybody that will take care of him for me? And I responded what do you mean take care of him? You want him beat up or what? No, sir, I want him dead. The guy`s a liar, blah, blah, blah. And I said, no, I don`t know anybody. I`m certainly not interested in this conversation. My alarms went up then. And I said, this guy`s not right in the head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN in the "State versus Michael Dunn."
Out to Joseph in Nevada. Hi, Joseph, what`s your question?
JOSEPH, CALLED FROM NEVADA: I have a comment, Nancy. My comment, he testified that he saw a long gun, a single barrel shotgun. And no criminal uses single barrel shotguns or long shotguns at all. For Mr. Taaffe, and - - so that makes the statement utterly ridiculous.
GRACE: You know, joining me right now -- I`m going to let him address your question, Joseph in Nevada.
John Phillips is joining us tonight from Jacksonville. He`s the attorney for the family of Jordan Davis.
Joseph in Nevada is calling in about the use of long guns. Now I myself prosecuted a couple of guns with long guns. So they are used, but what`s interesting is how Dunn`s story changed about what he saw.
JOHN PHILLIPS, ATTORNEY FOR THE FAMILY OF JORDAN DAVIS: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, if it had been a long shotgun, it probably would have been in Leland`s position to be able to reach where he wanted it to reach. But regardless, these are -- these are good kids. They didn`t have shotguns. I`ve been in all of their homes. These aren`t -- these aren`t what they are being portrayed to be.
And aren`t we learning some interesting stuff about Michael Dunn now and who the real thug is here?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Frank Taaffe, why did your man Michael Dunn have nunchakus in his backseat? What`s that for?
TAAFFE: I guess he was practicing martial arts. You know, I want to go back to that --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: No, he wasn`t. And I want to go to John Phillips. Why would he have nunchakus and a loaded gun?
PHILLIPS: Nancy, he also had a silencer in his trunk. You know, this is a guy that was armed to the teeth. And oh, by the way, Frank Taaffe called me before all this went down asking if we`d accept him on our side and was saying Jordan was -- you know, was the good guy. And boy, hasn`t he changed his tune?
GRACE: Martin Savidge, a silencer? A silencer? The only time I`ve seen a silencer is when I was prosecuting homicide drug lords in inner city Atlanta. Nunchakus, a silencer, a loaded weapon?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And all of this goes to your question in the very beginning, why is it taking the jury this long? We still don`t have the answer to that.
GRACE: I don`t get it. You know, and Taaffe, your snide comment maybe he was practicing martial arts --
TAAFFE: And you know what?
GRACE: He`s not practicing martial arts. In fact he said --
TAAFFE: Listen --
GRACE: -- he doesn`t work out and he doesn`t lift weights.
TAAFFE: Can I -- please. One --
GRACE: He is armed to the teeth.
TAAFFE: One second. If a silencer was found in his trunk, why wasn`t he charged with that, too? I don`t understand where he`s coming from. I don`t understand that. A silencer. Really?
GRACE: I don`t even know what -- I`m asking you --
TAAFFE: John Phillips just said --
GRACE: Why is he carrying an arsenal?
TAAFFE: Nunchakus are legal, Nancy. Anybody can carry. Plus he had a concealed weapons permit to carry that gun. So where is the violation?
GRACE: Larry Hannan, what is taking this jury so long? Nunchakus, a silencer, a loaded gun, and he was under attack?
I can`t get Larry.
Martin, I`m just -- I`m beside myself about the jury and the questions they`re asking and where this is headed.
SAVIDGE: Well, one aspect could be that, of course, this is a high profile case. There have been a number of them here in the state of Florida. I think this jury was very astute as they follow and they`re just being -- doing their due diligence as they deliberate.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Private 1st Class Jr., JR Salvacion, 27, Eva Beach, Hawaii. National Defense Service medal, Army Service Ribbon, NATO medal. Loved guitar, the beach, parents Angelito and Milagros, sister Michelle, widow Joy. One son.
JR Salvacion, American hero.
END
