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Dr. Drew
Is Teen Bride a Serial Killer?; "Loud Music" Juror Speaks Out
Aired February 19, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, a teen bride claims she is a serial killer. The cops don`t believe her. A friend says she`s unstable.
"JACKIE", FRIEND OF MIRANDA BARBOUR: She has stated being raped by multiple men at once. And she wrote a lot of dark poetry which is usually reflecting on these sorts of events.
PINSKY: Her mother says she`s making it all up. Who is telling the truth?
Plus, he`s guilty. Hear from the juror who says Michael Dunn got away with murder.
And is this 19-year-old capable of slashing her 52-year-old roommate to death? Police say yes.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host is Sirius XM Radio`s Jenny Hutt.
And coming up, a juror in the loud music trial says Michael Dunn is guilty of murder.
But, first, Miranda Barbour claims she is a serial killer. She says she can pinpoint the precise locations of bodies. Police are skeptical.
Jenny, are you skeptical?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I am now, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I don`t know. Her mother has doubts. Her own mother.
And in few minutes, I will talk to Miranda`s friend who has some very chilling new details.
But, first, I want you to look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REPORTER: Did you really kill 22 people?
REPORTER: Miranda Barbour was brought to the police station to be fingerprinted and photographed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say she and her husband conspired on a thrill kill to celebrate the three-week anniversary of their wedding.
REPORTER: Luring a man to a meeting using craigslist, then stabbing and strangling him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miranda had sent me a letter and she requested that she wanted to speak. She said she has, you know, done this before. I said, what`s the actual number? She said under a hundred.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I hit 22, I stopped counting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she can pinpoint where the bodies are buried, then we have to take it seriously.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said she would learn these people, follow these people, befriend these people, then bad things would happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think she`s making this up, and I think her and her little 3-week-old hubby there are happy that all the cameras are shining on them.
HUTT: Just before she married her current husband, she reportedly used his semen to masturbate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said she was molested at age 4.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miranda revealed she was part of a satanic cult.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She looked at me dead square in the eye and said, I don`t care what anybody believes. I want to get this off my chest for me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us to discuss: Mike Catherwood, TV and radio host, my own co-host on "Loveline", Lauren Lake, attorney and judge on "Paternity Court", Judge Lynn Toler, presiding judge on Divorce Court, Sean Klitzner, actor and comedian.
And on the phone, CNN`s Susan Candiotti.
Now, Miranda Barbour`s husband called Susan from jail today.
HUTT: Wow.
PINSKY: Susan, I understand it`s your day off and thank you for joining us. What in the world? How did he get your number? What did he want to say?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, he had my number because I gave him this number but I was as surprised as anyone else would be to have him call me. Of course, I had been seeking an interview.
But, you know, he said, there`s only so much he can say on advice of his lawyer, Dr. Drew, but he said, look, everyone wants to know about his wife`s credibility. With everything he said that she has said so far, in his words, she pretty much nailed herself to a cross.
He said he does expect a visit in a week or two from the FBI. And he`ll be talking with them. Naturally, I tried to push him to ask him about what she told him about killing other people, where, how many.
He said, let`s put it this way, I`ve been more than cooperative with every police force I`ve had contact with so far. And he said, but she was -- he wouldn`t elaborate about how specific she was, maybe 50-50.
I can tell you this, Dr. Drew, that I`ve been reporting since the weekend that according to a law enforcement source even before Miranda`s interview with the newspaper reporter, investigators, I`m told, were well aware of her claims of killing other people because they heard the very same thing after interviewing her family and her friends and, yes, even her husband.
And then, finally, he added this before he had to hang up the phone. Just tell her that I love her.
PINSKY: Susan, let me ask you this. Did you get -- and this is maybe an unfair question. Did you get a vibe for this guy? Did you feel that he was playing us in some way, the press, or did you feel this was a really creepy guy capable of anything?
CANDIOTTI: You know, I did not get a vibe from him that he was trying to play me. I mean, this is someone who has pleaded not guilty to a murder himself. His life is on the line as well. Prosecutors have said they`re seeking the death penalty.
I think he was sincere. He sounded sincere to me, but obviously not wanting to give up anything, he`s been told not to talk.
PINSKY: All right. OK, got it. Thanks, Susan, thank you so much.
Lauren, why would this man call a CNN reporter? I mean, it seems to me it`s an attorney`s worst nightmare.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Worst! Where`s his lawyer? Get off the phone unless you want attention.
What? Are serial killers going to be the new reality stars? Do you make up a lie about killing people?
No, this is really ridiculous, if she can pinpoint, then start pinpointing then because I want to see if people are really dead, if these stories are true and if not get off the TV and stop calling reporters. This is ridiculous.
PINSKY: Lynn, you agree, you`re smiling.
LYNN TOLER: I agree, but I don`t think she`s as calculated as it appears. I think she might believe a little bit of her own lies. She has deluded herself. And I think that it may have -- I mean, she`s got a little Dexter with it. She only killed people who deserved it.
I don`t know whether her real life and TV`s life, I don`t know if they do not intersect in her own head.
PINSKY: Who is that, Sean?
SEAN KLITZNER, COMEDIAN: Yes, I just want to know. I put in a call to the husband, he didn`t call me back.
PINSKY: Well, I`m talking to you.
KLITZNER: Thank you. I appreciate that. Here`s what`s going on. Obviously, you have the shows like "Dexter" and we build these fantasies in our life that we want to emulate. And unfortunately some people want to emulate these crazy stories.
I mean, we watch "Dexter" we love the show. She might have loved the show.
PINSKY: Mike, I`m dying to know what you thing. You and I talk to people every night on "Loveline." We hear terrible things.
To me, this seems particularly plausible. I`ve particularly given her abuse and this cult thing. What do you think?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO PERSONALITY: I think the fact, or the idea of a 22-year-old girl snapping and killing people at an alarming rate is very plausible, like you said, given the amount of trauma survivors that we talk to.
I don`t think this girl killed 22 people, certainly didn`t get away with it. Isn`t it hard nowadays with forensic science and the effectiveness and the acute nature at which law enforcement thinks and acts nowadays? It is really hard to get away with stuff.
And she`s not very smart. All the evidence we`ve seen gives zero credibility to the fact that she`s done any of the things that she claimed to have done.
PINSKY: I want Lauren and then Lynn to respond to what Mike just said.
LAKE: She`s not very smart. But my issue is, if you can pinpoint, then pinpoint. Where is the evidence of these killings? How do you kill this many people and there`s no evidence of it?
PINSKY: Lynn?
TOLER: I disagree a little bit. I mean, serial killers, especially if they`re mobile, if they`re nomadic, they do manage to kill a number of people. They don`t stay long enough for any kind of forensic evidence to get tied to them. So, just because factually the evidence isn`t there, there`s no CSI resolution to it doesn`t mean that there couldn`t be bodies --
PINSKY: Somewhere.
TOLER: -- somewhere.
LAKE: But she can pinpoint, right?
PINSKY: But the so-called FBI`s coming in soon. Maybe she`s holding all her evidence until she can unload it on those guys.
I`m with you, I`m with you, though, Lauren. Once she tells us where the bodies are, that settles the score. We have our answer.
But I wonder, Jenny, is she building toward some kind of weird insanity defense, do you think?
HUTT: Look, Dr. Drew, she can only claim that insanity defense if at the moment of this specific killing she`s charged with today she didn`t know the difference between right and wrong at the moment that she committed the crime because she was insane at that moment. It can`t be that she`s just insane. Therefore, it`s a blanket insanity.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, why don`t you report again to Mike Catherwood what you heard about her sexual practice because Mike seems to be very interested in that when you heard that --
HUTT: Right. So, my goodness, Dr. Drew, look at you.
OK. So, basically, what was reported was that this woman used her husband`s sperm to masturbate just prior to getting married to him.
KLITZNER: Yes, but who hasn`t done that? Come on.
CATHERWOOD: Well, I mean, who hasn`t collected sperm?
HUTT: Right, of course.
PINSKY: Who hasn`t done that? Sean, you agree?
KLITZNER: Absolutely. No, it`s disgusting. And, honestly, she`s just -- she`s crazy. This last killing was like -- if she`s a serial killer, she`s like the worst serial killer to just give it all up in the last killing.
PINSKY: Right. It was so sloppy. Well, sometimes, you can get sloppy later on.
OK. We`ll leave it at that. Up next, we have an exclusive interview with a friend of this self-proclaimed serial killer. And she has some interesting and disturbing details hopefully she`ll share with us.
And later, a teenaged waitress goes missing. Her 52-year-old roommate turns up dead. She turns up with some crazy equipment on her. Did she murder him?
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKIE: When I met her around years ago, she confided in me that at 13, she had joined a gang. She didn`t call it a cult. She had stated being raped by multiple men at once. And she wrote a lot of dark poetry that was usually reflecting on these sorts of events. She was quiet and introverted, and I guess I was kind of drawn to her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jenny and I are back.
Now, Jenny, her friend Jackie there was very helpful. I mean, she confirms the history and the history for me is consistent with somebody that may have behaved in a murderous fashion. I mean, not necessarily so, though, right?
HUTT: Yes, but how many kids are disturbed or unhappy or writing dark poetry and they don`t all wind up serial killer, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Right, even people who have been abused. Not as if someone who has been sexually abused or even in a cult will be killers.
Let me give you a tweet also, Jenny, here. It`s from Kish. "Where are these victims, who are these victims and why did she kill them?" Which has sort of been everyone`s question. Where are the bodies? Who are these people? What`s going on here?
HUTT: Show us the bodies.
PINSKY: Yes, show us the bodies.
Time for the behavior bureau. Let`s bring in Samantha Schacher, social commentator, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network. Erica America, Z100 Radio personality and a psychotherapist, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, and Leeann Tweeden, social commentator.
Judy, you`re first. We`re hearing all these -- I`ve even heard more provocative stuff about her relationships with men. Does that add up to anything for you or is that merely incidental evidence?
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: It does add up for me, Dr. Drew, and some of the more provocative evidence.
I`ve heard is that she`s subjugated men into these sort of like S&M positions where she has power over them. And it really goes along with somebody who has been abused and they have an active fantasy life and dreaming and thinking about ways they can dominate others and sometimes they play that out in these sexual games.
But at one point, the fantasy and the reality blurs, and I do believe maybe she`s had one other killing before this one we`re talking about here. But 22?
Some of that must have been in her head. It`s one of those profiles that we see with people that have been extremely abused.
PINSKY: But, Erica, what if we heard she tortured animals when she was 5 or something? One more piece of evidence? That`s kind of what`s missing.
ERICA AMERICA, Z100: I totally agree. Something I want to mention is that false confessions are a phenomenon that actually happened a lot. In this case, it was voluntary by some need for, you know, notoriety or something like that.
But the thing that makes this a difficult situation is she did allegedly kill this one person. So, she is a murderer potentially, so she is a threat no matter what. We just have to look into and give it a chance to see does this follow through with what she`s saying. But I tend to think that it didn`t happen. Everything she`s saying.
PINSKY: Sam, what do you make of that?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, YOUNG TURKS: I`ve always said that she`s a liar from day one. But, Dr. Drew, this has me thinking. Do you thing this was possible because she was molested as a kid, because we learn last night allegedly she was raped by multiple men in one time, that she did lure this guy from Craigslist because it was a possibility to get all her vengeance on all the men that abused her in the past?
PINSKY: Again, it adds up to me, but maybe the husband had sway over her when it pertains to this particular killing. So many missing pieces.
But, Leeann, you and I still think she did it, not only she did this one, but she may have done others.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, if she`s done this one, it`s possible she did the others. I don`t know if she did that many. But to me, I always -- I look at people`s behavior and I think, where are their parents? I did read something today where the mom did move away to North Carolina in order to get away from everything, and said that her daughter was mixed up in the wrong group of people.
But I want to know, I read earlier that this cult leader that put her finger on the trigger for her first killing, this is what she said, where is that guy? Where is the cult? I`d like to know more information about them.
PINSKY: Maybe that`s what the FBI will be looking into. I don`t know.
I`ve got another interesting tweet. Let`s put this up here. It`s from ESNEET4113. You guys and your Twitter handles. I don`t understand them.
"Ted Bundy got sloppy as he began to decompensate. Some say serial killers want to be caught."
Go ahead, Judy.
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, there are two types of killers. There`s the disorganized type of killer, and then the organized kind of killer. She`s obviously the disorganized type. She hasn`t done well to clean up her mess if she really did commit this murder.
So, my question is, if there are 22 other murders, at some point we would have found a body somewhere. There would have been some questions. It`s 22. She`s saying at least 22, not one or two others.
She`s a disorganized killer. I mean, when you listen to her in an interview, she`s got the possibly lower IQ. She`s definitely not a very, very high IQ from what we see.
PINSKY: How dare you?
TWEEDEN: Where is the father of her child? Let`s start with that guy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s dead.
SCHACHER: They`re investigating it.
PINSKY: Last comments. We`re going to break. Erica?
AMERICA: Yes. No, I just think that we have until we see that it`s not true, we have to give it the potential that it could be true and just look into it.
PINSKY: Jenny, wrap it up.
HUTT: I just want to say that the satanic cult leader of the whole satanic cult system says he wants no association with her.
PINSKY: All satanic leaders withdraw their support from this lady. Fantastic.
Up next, we`ll hear from the juror in the loud music murder trial.
And later, we`ve got some unbelievable video of a woman attacked in a crowded store by her husband and the people that came to her rescue. Here it is. Watch. Oh, my goodness. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: And back with Jenny.
One of the jurors in the Michael Dunn trial, a white female, is talking to the media. We`ll hear from her about what was happening in the jury room. But, first, here`s Dunn himself in some jailhouse phone calls. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MICHAEL DUNN: She found some YouTube videos of these guys, and they`re all gangsta rappers. When the police said that these guys didn`t have a record, I was like, yes, I wonder if they`re just flying under the radar.
ROUER: Right.
DUNN: Because they are bad. I mean --
RHONDA: Yes. All right. But we don`t want to talk about anything like that. Talk to Charlie, because he`s missing you so much. OK? Hold on.
DUNN: OK.
RHONDA: Talk to daddy.
DUNN: Hey, Charlie!
"CHARLIE": Hello, daddy.
DUNN: Hey buddy, hey little man.
"CHARLIE": Missing you so much.
DUNN: Hey little man. Be good for mom.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Just to clarify there, jenny, the little man he`s talking to is Charlie his dog. So --
HUTT: Oh, gosh.
PINSKY: Nice.
Back with Mike, Lauren, Lynn and Sean.
Now, if the jury had heard some of these calls, Lauren, do you think there would have been a different outcome?
LAKE: I don`t know. Dr. Drew, you know, the jury heard that he fired shots, went home, ordered pizza, had a drink and walked the dog. And people were still holding out.
I have a problem with this. I think even though he says that sounds like they were gangsta rappers or whatever, he already told the girlfriend and she admitted on the stand that he called it thug music. There is something going on in this jury room where they were not able to really talk about race and figure out whether or not his actions were reasonable.
The juror keeps talking about they really believed he was fearful for his life. That`s not the law. It`s not about whether he really believed it. It`s about whether it was reasonable to believe it.
PINSKY: Mike, not only that, isn`t -- like calling these guys this goofy gangsta rapper, isn`t that racial profiling? I mean --
LAKE: Right!
PINSKY: Like Snoop Dogg drives up, we got to get our guns out. I don`t understand what he means by that.
CATHERWOOD: I don`t understand at all. I have to say that one thing`s for sure. We don`t know if he got away with something. We don`t know if race was an issue.
We do know that this guy`s tragically unhip, because I listened to him talk to his fiancee for like 60 seconds and I wanted to go hang out with my dad who is 70 today and is cooler and my dad`s fat and really white.
PINSKY: But he`s more hip.
Sean`s right down the road here. You can go hang out with Sean, if you want.
Sean, what do you say?
KLITZNER: You know, it`s another Florida thing. And this is the problem with our court system. We don`t bust a guy like this, who clearly killed the kid. There`s no -- I mean, he`s guilty of killing, but not in the court system of being punished for it. So, it`s really confusing.
One of the phone calls, though, that I read up on and then heard, was he`s telling his wife that he was in the jail cell and he`s telling these guys, yes, these three guys were playing this loud music. And the three guys are like, yes, you did the right thing.
That`s what he`s like telling his wife, like the guy said, I did the right thing -- they`re in jail! They`re in jail. This guy is not the smartest guy.
PINSKY: Fantastic.
LAKE: Right, exactly.
PINSKY: Now, one of the five white female jurors spoke to the news. I`ll share here what she said about a couple of the racial issues. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VALERIE, JUROR #4: He testified he wouldn`t say or use the words "thug," but he said he would use the words "rap crap." However, in his interview, he did say "thug" a few times.
INTERVIEWER: How could it not be about race in some level?
VALERIE: Sitting in that room, it was never presented that way. We looked at it as a bad situation where teenagers were together and words were spoken and lines were crossed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, this same woman said that there was yelling, screaming and cursing inside the jury room as well. Judge Toler, how bad does this get? How do passions like lie that all the time?
TOLER: It`s not unusual, because the prejudices we hold so closely to us we don`t know we have them. So that is the truth that we are seeing. And you`re arguing for that truth when you`re in there.
We charge people to say, stick by your guns, hold your opinions while still listening to others and being reasonable, but to move. But it does get passionate and angry often.
PINSKY: Sean, you have a story?
KLITZNER: Well, it`s tough. First of all, it`s hard because this case, you know, it`s not illegal to be racist, unfortunately. So if you want to go the hate crime route, it`s just tough. But when it comes to --
PINSKY: Hate is illegal. But racism is not illegal.
KLITZNER: Exactly. So this fine line, but there`s a story that happened.
I am walking my dog. And I -- you know, there was a black guy walking toward me. And you know, we kind of came head-to-head. And I said, hey, and he said, "F-U, man," and he cursed at me. And I walked away and said that`s a really mean guy. I didn`t say that`s a mean black guy.
But I thought when I tell this story, I`m going to say there`s this black guy walking. And I`m not racist. I don`t -- I don`t feel that in my heart. I looked at this as a mean guy, but unfortunately, that story then turns into white people are racist or, you know, and it could happen the other way as well.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Was that Mike? Somebody`s trying to talk. Go ahead, who is it?
HUTT: It`s jenny. Would you have told that story differently if it were a white guy? I guess that`s the question. Would you say and this white guy?
KLITZNER: You know what, if I told the story, somebody might ask, was it a white guy, black guy, Asian guy, Hispanic guy.
PINSKY: Lynn?
TOLER: I think it`s disingenuous to say, I don`t see color. I don`t think it`s true. If they never went in the jury room and never said color and said thug. I mean, thug and black are not synonymous. And to say that you don`t see someone as black or white is untrue.
And if we really want to be a nonracial racist society, we have to be able to acknowledge race.
LAKE: Exactly.
KLITZNER: I think that`s a great point.
(CROSSTALK)
LAKE: Acknowledge it, Dr. Drew.
CATHERWOOD: And I honestly, I truly feel that like thug -- especially the word "thug" has just become like the crotchety old racist`s guy`s new word for the N-word. That`s what he says people are looking. Like thug is the racist white guy says when people were actually around.
LAKE: And, Dr. Drew, if they went through these whole jury proceedings and came out of that room and said race was never brought up, I have a problem with that because we should be able to talk about --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I agree with you, Lauren. I mean, shouldn`t we be looking at people`s point of view? If this was a bad situation where two people came together, shouldn`t we understand how they experienced one another to understand what happened?
CATHERWOOD: But I think the judge would be the best person to ask about this. Really does it matter? Right now, they`re not trying this man for his racially --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But understand what happened at a gas station. Lynn, then Lauren.
CATHERWOOD: Objectively, did he murder this boy or not? That`s the question.
TOLER: But race matters in a society. When you talk cross-racially, people have perceptions and prejudice and things that they believe. And if you refuse to acknowledge them, discuss them and understand them, you cannot come to a just verdict as to what was in his head and why he did what he did.
PINSKY: Lauren, finish up.
LAKE: Exactly. And you`re not having an authentic conversation, because why is it is that he couldn`t stand the music because it was thug music. The boys intimidated him.
Why? He thought he was going to be killed but there`s no gun and no evidence of any other weapon. Why? Why is this?
If the roles had been reversed and the kids would have been white, and the man in the car would have been black, you got to talk this out in the jury room. Hey, you guys, someone`s life is on the line and, more importantly, a kid is dead that had no weapon.
Let`s be strong enough to talk about the difficult issues because I`ll say this last thing, Dr. Drew, if I hear one more jury come out of a jury room and talk about they`ve made a decision, then I figure out that they don`t even understand the law, that they based the decision on, I`m sick of it. I heard it in Zimmerman.
They don`t understand the jury instructions, and it`s -- the law, people are dying and people are not being held accountable.
PINSKY: Leaving it there.
Up next, a 15-year-old man is found slashed to death. The question here is, did his 19-year-old roommate murder him?
The victim`s girlfriend is here to tell us what she knows. She was there when this young lady showed up.
And later, is pornography becoming mainstream? We`ll talk about a porn star that made a mainstream movie with Lindsay Lohan, a mainstream movie.
Be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say McLinn`s (ph) roommate, 52-year-old Harold Sasko (ph), was found brutally murdered January 17th. And two weeks later, they found McLinn in Florida with Sasko`s car and several weapons, one may have been the murder weapon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down the road we`re going to find that maybe this isn`t a who done it, OK? This is a why.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: McLinn is competent but may have some mental issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying to figure out what motivation was there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny and our "Behavior Bureau," Sam, Erica, Judy and Leeann. We`re talking about that teenage girl you saw there accused of brutally killing her boss and roommate. The victim, the 19-year-old -- let the 19-year-old woman move into his home because, well, the report is she was so-called struggling with personal problems, whatever that means. Now, more than a year later, he`s dead. She`s caught sleeping in a vehicle with drugs, guns, knives and an axe.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: His vehicle.
PINSKY: His vehicle. Thank you, Leeann. Now, Leeann, you`re very suspicious of this relationship.
TWEEDEN: Oh, yes. I definitely think that there was some sort of sexual relationship. And if you read any of the documents on this, some of his friends have said, yes, he was a fixer. He liked problems. He liked taking care of things. So, it seems to me that probably she had some issues. She worked for one of his restaurant. And he`s like, you know, maybe he can get a little something out of it and he let her move in and maybe she was done with it.
Maybe she was done paying the sexual favor back and just, you know, killed him and took his car and drove away.
PINSKY: Well, Leeann, let me take you to task for that theory. I`ve got Kimberly Qualls who was dating the victim, Hal Sasko (ph), when he opened his home to this young woman who is accused of killing him. Kimberly joins us on the phone right now. So, Kimberly, can you set this straight for us? People are suspicious that something was going on between them. What did you see?
VOICE OF KIMBERLY QUALLS, VICTIM`S EX-GIRLFRIEND: Well, I was dating Hal when -- actually Sarah moves in with him just after her high school graduation. And, we talked quite a bit about this. You know, I told Hal, I said, you know, "you got to make sure really you have everything kind of in place for this because this is a young woman." She, you know, did have some problems in her background.
PINSKY: Like what? What were the problems?
QUALLS: Oh, just drugs is one of the things that had been mentioned. Just some type of self-esteem issues and just some other things and he just wanted to get her into a good stable environment, help her get on to college, and kind of mentor her like he did so many of the people who worked for him, you know, even within his stores.
PINSKY: But Kimberly, so, that was sort of his -- that was a common thing for him. Did this still concern you that he was actually opening his home to this young lady?
QUALLS: It did just because of knowing of some of her background and, you know, none of us -- we`re definitely not experts. Hal was not an expert. And, you know, it just -- it kind of seemed maybe she needed more than just his help.
PINSKY: Yes. Did you have a theory about what led to this murder?
QUALLS: No, I don`t. This is really a hard one to understand. This was a good man, caring, friendly, big smiles, who generously gave to everyone he knew and, you know, it`s so hard for any of us who knew him and loved him to understand.
PINSKY: It`s so sad. But let me -- I`m going to push you a little harder on this issue. You keep sort of blushing -- brushing over this having issues. Was she a hard core drug addict? I mean, if she was a drug addict, then it makes sense. I mean, people get in altered states. They need money, they need drugs. Was it something like that, do you think?
QUALLS: I don`t know, to be honest. I really don`t. I just know that that`s been mentioned a few times, you know? And that`s a hard age anyway, 17, 18, 19, the teenage years we know are tough years for any out of reach teenager let alone to have bad influences maybe with friends around you. You know, there`s just a variety of different things mentioned and I don`t know if any one thing was more significant than the other.
But, it was definitely a young lady that definitely needed some help going in the right direction.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Was she living with him at the same time that she moved in, the girl moved in?
QUALLS: I was not living with him, but we were dating.
PINSKY: Judy, your question?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. Kimberly, you were talking about him being a fixer. And I was just wondering if you have any other examples from this man`s life where he was trying to fix somebody else`s problem, whether it was yours or somebody else that you watched him do that to?
QUALLS: Yes, most definitely. We actually would go to concert with gals and guys that he had helped. I met many, many of them. There were many at the memorial this past Sunday. Many stories told. I mean, there was a story of a young man who worked for him, Hal fired him and the young man to this day still respects him highly because he was not only, you know, a tough mentor, but he set him on the right path as well as he was a good friend, too.
PINSKY: Sam.
SCHACHER: Yes. Kimberly, in fact a number of sources that I checked out today claim that he was generous to a fault. But I also learned that she manipulated him allegedly to the point where she got him to loan her money for clothing --
PINSKY: Nose job, did we hear?
SCHACHER: As well as a nose job. Is that true or just false allegations?
QUALLS: Well, I do know that he had mentioned possibly helping her with a nose job to kind of help with her self-esteem. And, you know, that wouldn`t have been the only person he helped with things like that. There`s many, many, many stories just from the time I knew him and even a couple of years before of helping all kinds of people.
SCHACHER: Wait, do you think she took advantage of that? It seems like it. Yes. Clearly.
PINSKY: Kimberly, I`m going to let you go. Thank you so much. Very, very helpful tonight. I want to talk to Erica and Judy real quick here. Erica, it`s like what I`m hearing is like a malignant co-dependency. Like, you know, you`re going to fix this very disturbed person. And that is not the way you do it. Listen, if you or I or Judy were going to fix, the three of us alone wouldn`t be sufficient. We would need a big team around that even.
ERICA AMERICA, RADIO PERSONALITY: Right. Well, first, I want to say we definitely need more details in this case to see really what went down between the two of them. Why she left her home, what problem she was having, you know, with her own family? But my question is, as the older man, why would he have a young teenager move into his house? That`s a little odd to me. Doesn`t anyone else think it`s a little weird?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Leeann is going to the math on that one. Leeann is convinced that there`s something more went on. His motivation was not strictly altruistic.
TWEEDEN: Well, obviously, she`s was a manipulator. So, I think she would use anything and -- when you`re 19, if you don`t have anything else but your beauty and your youth, what else are you going to use to get a man to do anything for you?
PINSKY: Leeann, I don`t want to talk about your history right now.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: I`m just kidding. I`m just kidding. Judy, you have something to say.
HO: Yes, I did. You know, I actually really believe that this man is somebody who`s just that person who wants to fix people. And, these types of individuals who are mentally ill and a little bit kind of like, they draw that out of you. They draw that out of people who are fixers.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And they get these fixers involved. You know what I`m talking about, Dr. Drew, his access (ph) to personality disorder people.
PINSKY: Listen, when I was starting out in practice, I would get cleaned up by these people. You want to help them. You want to be perfect for them. Sam suffers from the same thing.
SCHACHER: I do.
(CROSSTALK)
HO: And this is kind of what I believe is going on and what I think we`ve all experienced parts of it as a clinician. But you know what, maybe this man should have actually gone into a professional industry of being a clinician to fix people instead of doing this personal life. There was definitely a boundary problem.
PINSKY: Right. And let`s be clear, I want to do two things. First of all, I want to apologize to Leeann. That was a low shot I took at you.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: I`m trying to be funny.
TWEEDEN: Accepted.
PINSKY: You have way more than your beauty, and that`s my point, and that`s why it was funny. But the other thing is that for people that want to be altruistic, I`m not saying they shouldn`t be. I`m saying that you got to be very careful and people have -- and this is back to issues that we talk about on this show all the time.
When people have symptoms of major mental illness, they need mental illness treatment because bad things can happen. Now, you can go be altruistic, but get them care along the way. Somebody has drug addiction, somebody has personality disorder, somebody has been acting out as a teenager, if they are cutting, sexually acting out, they`re doing drugs. That`s mental illness and that needs treatment in addition to your altruistic support.
TWEEDEN: Well, he was getting away with it, too, Dr. Drew. He`d been helping people, helping people. Probably each patient got worse, you know, had a harder person to solve and fix, and then finally one killed him.
HO: And I just want to mention, too, you know, she is a 19-year-old teenager. And you know, she`s a female. So, he probably thought there`s no danger in taking this person in. But you know what, when do most of the onsets of mental illness happen? It`s in that late teens period. That`s when they`re the most severe.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: And people just don`t see that as a danger sign, but the low self-esteem, all of these things that we`re finding out about her, the drug problems, it all adds up to what we know must be a very severe mental illness.
PINSKY: Jenny, last thought. You`re saying something --
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Yes, because it`s so inappropriate that he took in this 19-year-old. That`s zero boundaries on his part. Hello!
PINSKY: Coming up next, a shocking incident caught on video. Speaking of inappropriate, a school bus driver slapping an autistic child. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Jenny, Sam, Leeann and Mike. And we have two disturbing viral videos to share with you tonight. The first one, 16 surveillance cameras in and around a market in Bakersfield, California captured a domestic violence dispute as it happens. Take a look at this, you guys. This is really something.
We see a woman running to a parking lot -- man on a bike, I guess, and then he jumps off. Look at this. Leeann, please.
TWEEDEN: You know, first of all, for a man to be riding a BMX bike, which obviously means he probably doesn`t have a car, so he probably doesn`t have a job, but to beat a woman and to pummel her -- yes, exactly. Go get a job and be a man. Man up and stop beating women.
PINSKY: He keeps going after her. Mike, do you agree?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, CO-HOST, "LOVELINE": Yes. I -- well -- also --
PINSKY: Oh my God! Look at this.
CATHERWOOD: He throws and hits like a bitch.
TWEEDEN: Exactly. Thank you.
CATHERWOOD: He really does.
PINSKY: Oh, my God. Look at this.
CATHERWOOD: What is going on?
SCHACHER: this is in broad daylight. So, if this is how he treats her in public, can you imagine --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: I know.
CATHERWOOD: I`ll bet you, they`re going into that liquor store for a fine, fine merlot, perhaps --
PINSKY: No doubt.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: French wine, no doubt. He pleaded no contest to misdemeanor spousal abuse.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: However, he will spend 20 days in jail. He`s on probation for three years, has to enroll in domestic violence counseling. I don`t know which of you guys wants to comment on this, but the fact is when domestic violence gets that bad, it needs treatment, it needs extensive treatment --
HUTT: And she needs to get away.
PINSKY: Absolutely. A 100 percent. So, there`s a lesson anybody who`s experience anything like this.
(CROSSTALK)
HUTT: That`s a full punch.
CATHERWOOD: Something really interesting, though, I wanted to point out in the video. And I don`t know if it was her instinctive kind of reaction.
HUTT: To hug him.
CATHERWOOD: -- or if it was kind of that battered female syndrome where she immediately after she hits, and yes, she runs and hugs him. And I was so blown away by that. I have no idea what`s going on in the situation other than what we see.
PINSKY: The classic cycle is tension builds. They do it again with the abuse, and then they apologize and tell you it will never happen again, it`s because they love you so much. That is a sick situation that must change.
Next up, an Ohio bus driver may lose her job after surveillance video caught her slapping an eight-year-old autistic boy who was screaming on her school bus. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the problem? Stop. Now. You touch me and -- that is enough. Do you understand me? Enough. Stop it. Enough.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: No!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You heard me.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: No!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Bus driver told investigators and school officials that she did not know the child was autistic and she doesn`t remember slapping her.
HUTT: Oh, come on.
PINSKY: Hang on, Leeann, I see you have a very powerful reaction.
TWEEDEN: You know, my best friend and the co-host of my tomboy`s pod cast, Dana, who I`m sure is watching this right now is going crazy. She is the mother of an autistic child. A, first of all, autistic or not, you never lay a hand on somebody else`s child ever. If anybody ever lays a hand on my son --
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: Thank you. Thank you, but I will be a parent to where my son doesn`t need that, but when you`re a bus driver of public school children, you need to know that you can never put a hand on a child. And to know that somebody on your bus route that you drive to school every day might have a problem, that`s not how you dealt with it.
If she felt like she needed to pull over and call the school or call the cops, fine, but don`t take your hand and put that on the child, especially a child that doesn`t understand.
SCHACHER: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Jenny, your reaction.
HUTT: Yes. You lay a hand on my kid, you`re going to be in a whole lot of trouble, Dr. Drew, plain and simple.
SCHACHER: And Dr. Drew, autistic aside, eight-year-old kids scream all the time on a bus.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: How threatened did she feel like an eight-year-old kid? Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: If you sign up knowing that every day you`re going to go to work in a bus full of eight-year-old kids, isn`t screaming par for the course? And I`d like to point out, isn`t it nice how she didn`t get her fat ass to even get out of the chair to turn around and hit a kid like she could use a couple of burnt calories. Maybe at least get a jog in - going to punch that kid. She doesn`t even move her ass.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Mike, I got the bring your friend in next in our series all about porn "Hooked" with an adult film actor who starred with Lindsay Lohan in a mainstream fil. There he is. He`s going to talk to us. Mike --
CATHERWOOD: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: There he is. Award winner, Mike.
And a reminder, you can find us any time on Instagram @DrDrewHLN. We need a few more followers to hit a real landmark. So please, everybody, sign up on our Instagram account. And we`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back to this week`s series "Hooked: All About Porn." Jenny and I are back with Sam, Leeann, and Mike. Joining us porn star, James Deen, who at 22 was the youngest porn actor to ever win male performer of the year. I know Mike Catherwood has been following you, James, very diligently.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: You know that about Mike. You know, he`s proclaimed his love for you many, many times. My question to you, James, what I want to get at as sort of part of this week`s focus is how is this industry changing, the people that participate in it? You obviously represent a change. What is that change?
JAMES DEEN, @JAMESDEEN: I don`t necessarily think the adult industry is changing so much as I think it is society`s opinion of the adult industry and acceptance of sexual culture.
PINSKY: Does that make the participants likely to be more mainstream? My wife has a theory, Sam. My wife has a theory that in 30 years, every PGA mom is going to have their own porn. That she`s --
HUTT: Oh, goodness!
PINSKY: I`m just saying. I`m just saying --
(CROSSTALK)
DEEN: Drew, I actually agree with you. I actually do think, I`ve been saying for quite some time that with the internet nowadays and, you know, all these amateur websites and everything like that, I personally think that between Facebook and people`s Instagrams and Twitter and everything like that, within the next 30 years, everybody is going to be naked on the --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: But there`s a difference between a home video with your husband, per se, and one that you would put out on amateur porn site.
DEEN: The whole video that being just distributed throughout the world or a self-taken nude photo or anything like that, I personally think that within the next 30 years pretty much --
PINSKY: Real quick, Mike --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Mike, go ahead.
CATHERWOOD: I just think that, Dr. Drew, with your "Behavior Bureau," we could work on something, maybe the beaver bureau. I mean, I know a lot of people would be into that.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Leeann, help me out here. Get out my friend there.
TWEEDEN: No. I think your wife could be right, Dr. Drew, and James as well. I think with technology, you don`t have to go make a video like with vivid and have them produce it and distribute it. Now, everybody has got, you know, their Mac or their iPod or they phone they can do it on and you can put it out on the internet.
I watched a report on like ABC News talk about women, moms that are making their own porn to make some money on the side. So, it`s very feasible.
PINSKY: Watch more than just a report. I`m just saying.
(LAUGHTER)
HUTT: Pick on Leeann night --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`m going to save the "Last Call" for Leeann. So, let`s do that next. Thank you, panel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: "Last Call" goes to the tweets of the night, and particularly, we are sharing on behalf of Leeann who`s been a very good sport tonight -- your partner on your podcast, Dana Commandatore, "A bus driver should never touch an eight-year-old child." Leeann, it`s off to you.
TWEEDEN: Well, it`s very true. And a child, whether they`re autistic or not should never be touched by anybody else. And you`re right. They should never be touched by their parents as well.
PINSKY: Where do we find your podcast?
TWEEDEN: Podcast, you can find it on blog talk radio or on iTunes.
PINSKY: It`s called --
TWEEDEN: "The Tomboys Show."
PINSKY: Thank you, Leeann.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: Everybody, "Right This Minute" starts right this minute.
END
