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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Dramatic Day in Court in Hammer Killing Trial
Aired February 20, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, explosive just-released interrogation tapes coming in as the wife and mother you see right there stands trial for beating her husband to death with a hammer. Prosecutors say her bizarre behavior as cops grill her proves she`s lying and deserves to die herself. Tonight, we`ll Marissa Devault describing in detail how she says her husband sexually abused and degraded her. But ask yourself as you`re watching and listening, do you believe her?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just hours after Marissa Devault`s husband, Dale Harrell, was found beat to death with a hammer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The two were having marital problems. Police say she confessed to hitting her husband with a claw hammer while he slept. The defense told jurors a different story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would she take that hammer and hit him over the head if there were guns in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Between long awkward pauses and a chuckle, she tells the detective she blacked out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: These twisted interrogation tapes, where she`s laughing one minute, bleeping the next, show Marissa Devault just hours after prosecutors say she bludgeoned her sleeping husband with a hammer.
OK. Just hours after cops raced to their Phoenix home to find hubby Dale Harrell bloody and thrashing and moaning. He later dies. And there are very gruesome photos of his skull that we will bring you.
Cops say she first tried to pin the murder on the couple`s developmentally disabled roommate. Listen to what she originally told detectives, from KFAZ (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEVAULT: I woke up to -- to this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
DEVAULT: And he was bent down a little bit lower and he wasn`t very polite to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did he say?
DEVAULT: "This (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is mine" is the one I remember the most. Something about (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You black out?
DEVAULT: And then the next thing I see is -- I saw a hammer go into Dale`s head. I got hit with...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where did you get hit with? Blood or something?
DEVAULT: It was blood on my face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You see Dale on the ground and you see what? Describe what you see to me.
DEVAULT: Crumpled up. Massive mess right here. And -- a gurgle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it`s like a bad high school play. Cops didn`t buy that story.
Well, now Marissa is pulling it right out of the Jodi Arias playbook, claiming self-defense after repeated sexual abuse from her now-dead husband. This defendant reportedly claims he forced her to have sex with other men so he could watch. But prosecutors say, "Unh-huh," she wanted Dale`s life insurance so he could pay back $300,000 she owed her secret lover.
Right after the stunning interrogation video was played for the jury, this 36-year-old wife and mom broke down as the doctor who tried to save Dale`s life described the horrible damage she inflicted with a hammer to the point where there was blood gushing out of the emergency medical vehicle that was whisking him away. She was sobbing so uncontrollably the judge sent the jury home for the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SOBBING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Members of the jury, we`re going to have to break for the afternoon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to ask you. What do you think of this woman? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. We`re going to go to a reporter who`s on the ground in Phoenix, Arizona, and was there in court in just a moment.
But I`ve got to get reaction to this hysterical -- well, some would say an acting job from the Jodi Arias school of acting. Remember, they`re both going to the same courthouse for trial. They`ve been housed in the same facility. It`s almost like Jodi Arias was the method acting teacher who taught her how to do this.
Wendy Patrick, prosecutor, should the judge have dismissed court for the day because of what could have been just an acting job?
WENDY PATRICK, PROSECUTOR: Yes. That`s a great question, Jane. You know, the issue of the defendant disrupting proceedings is something that the judge can control. Now the jurors hopefully will be able to decide for themselves, whether it`s for real or maybe it`s a corner.
But a defendant is entitled to be there during her own trial, but not to be so disruptive to the point that the jurors are distracted from processing the evidence from the witness stand, because they are too distracted by what`s going on at the defendant`s table. Because that, in and of itself, unless she`s on the stand, is not technically evidence, but nonetheless, that`s something they`re observing.
So the judge wanted to make sure that everybody understood this was not going to go on if she wanted to remain in that courtroom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we are very delighted to have with us tonight, Tammy Roman, actress and reality star, VH-1`s "Basketball Wives." You know about relationships. And when you see that sobbing and hysteria, which personally I believe is just a big acting job, and she was laughing just hours after cops say she bludgeoned him with a heavy-duty hammer. Now she`s sobbing historically.
TAMMY ROMAN, ACTRESS: Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Doesn`t that telegraph to the jury, though, that she`s legit if you end court proceedings?
ROMAN: Well, you know, we cry all the time on our show, so actually, it does not. I think that the judge needed to put his foot down and make her sit there and, you know, take responsibility to the actions that she has taken. You cannot dismiss the jury. We`re in the middle of trial. She`s crying. Now you`re sorry about what you did? I don`t think so.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I think he should have said, "Sit down and, you know, zip it, honey. We`re proceeding." Because by saying, "Go home for the day" and she collapses dramatically like that, it`s almost like saying she`s the victim. I am so sick and tired of trials where the defendant plays the victim. I could pull my hair out. You know what I`m talking about. Michael Dunn.
In these new released interrogation tapes, Marissa goes on and on and on about her sex life with her husband, who again, did I mention, she`d just bludgeoned him with a hammer hours earlier? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So basically every day you guys had sex?
DEVAULT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And one day in that seven days is one of those where, "OK, this is my duty" type of thing. I`m going to lay here? Does he get rough?
DEVAULT: When I`m not participating as much, he gets rougher because it`s -- I`m no fun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. As I hold this hammer, I want to warn you, we`re going to show you exactly one photo of the victim. It is so graphic and gruesome I have to give you a warning. But it brings home how hideous it is for her to be laughing just hours after prosecutors say she did that damage to his skull.
Check it out. There it is. Look at that. Oh, my God. J. Wyndal Gordon, look at that.
J. WYNDAL GORDON, ATTORNEY: I`m looking at it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What does that tell you?
GORDON: That he took a serious blow to the head. And it`s just one of those things where, you know, you hear about these case -- these types of cases all the time where the violence is so brutal and gruesome. And it kind of tears your heart out to witness something like that. And her histrionics in court really doesn`t help her cause. Because I`m of the opinion that everything in that courtroom is evidence, your demeanor, the way you act, your motive to tell the truth. Everything that happens in that courtroom can be considered as evidence to determine whether or not you`re guilty or innocent.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And by the way, the judge said that he`s going to get tough, and that`s the last time histrionics are going to disrupt the trial. So I`m pleased that he did that. But getting back to that gruesome photo, Adam Swickle, criminal defense attorney, you can defend that? I doubt it.
ADAM SWICKLE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the focus has got to be on what the trial is. In these kinds of cases, there`s always horrible photographs. There`s always a lot of emotion.
But I think the state`s got a lot of problems with their case. They`re going to be calling witnesses to the stand who are the primary witnesses who are liars, who have struck deals with the state in order to get off on child pornography charges. And are sitting on the jury in this particular murder, and I think the state`s really got a difficult time in order to do that.
But these photographs are something that the defense is going to have to deal with in order to lessen the emotion and lessen the effect on the jury.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sorry. She`s a pathological liar. She was having an affair with a guy. She owed him 300 grand. She`s laughing right after she allegedly did this. I mean, Simone Bienne, this should be a slam dunk for the prosecution. I don`t think this is going to be hard to prove at all or it shouldn`t be if they don`t screw it up.
SIMONE BIENNE, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Yes, Jane, you and me both agree on this. I know. What is it, like BFF Jodi Arias? There`s no way that she is going to get away with this. I mean (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hysterical laughing. That is used as a distraction method, No. 1.
No. 2, the crying in court, distraction method. Why do you distract? Because you`re lying. You`re lying, you`re lying, you`re lying. And there is no way she`s going to get away with it. And Jane, as a woman to a woman and all of our female viewers I find it so disgusting that she is laughing instead of showing sadness if she`s the victim of such horrific crimes. It is disgusting to every single woman who has any kind of sexual assault or has, you know, had any kind of domestic violence. It makes me sick.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It absolutely does, because it makes it harder for women who have really been abused to prove their case. Now I want to go out to Sandra Haros. We`re going to play a clip in just a second of this defendant talking about the sex -- oh, dripping with sex. Meanwhile, it`s a crime about violence. But just like Jodi, she`s bringing it to sex.
Tell us why this is such a sexual case, Sandra Haros, reporter, News Talk 92.3. You`re in the court. You`re on the ground in Phoenix.
SANDRA HAROS, REPORTER, NEWS TALK 92.3 (via phone): I think the entire case or at least the defense is trying to use that as a way to make the story plausible that she has PTSD or battered women`s syndrome.
You know, looking at the interrogation tapes, there are so many parallels to be drawn when it comes to Jodi Arias. And it has to do with the odd mannerisms and the emotional roller coasters and almost posturing herself as if she knows more than the cops do.
But when she breaks down and starts sobbing, you know, it`s just hard to tell. But I really believe that the defense is trying to use the sex and bringing the sex into this to make her story plausible that she is a victim.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: When the investigator asked Marissa about bruises on her thighs, she blamed them on rough, painful sex with her husband. Who does that remind me of? He allegedly liked to have rough sex. Who does that remind me of? Jodi and her accusations against Travis Alexander. Listen, then we`ll debate it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You do have bruises and we need to kind of delve into how you got those bruises on your thighs. I mean, that`s something that you see all the time. You mentioned something about possibly being caused by his hipbone or something. The way his hipbone hits you.
DEVAULT: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I take it that you would be laying on your back and he would be on top of you? And it`s not like his hip bone protrudes.
DEVAULT: He tries to thrust a certain way that causes his hip to rub.
It hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That hurts? OK. But that seems to be the...
DEVAULT: Likes the most.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Likes the most. All right. We`ll put it at that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just like Jodi Arias, she is talking in graphic terms about sex, rough sex, accusing the guy she`s had sex with, of forcing her. Even though prosecutors say, well, in both cases it was totally invited behavior.
They`re in the same courthouse, the trial. They have been housed in the same jail. They even look alike during these interrogation tapes. I really think -- honestly -- and I`ve got to go back to Simone Bienne. I honestly believe that Jodi Arias is a consultant with her on some level, because it`s just too similar. The sex right before killing.
OK. Remember, Jodi had sex with Travis. Then she slit his throat. This one says she was forced into sex and then kills him with a hammer.
BIENNE: I think what is so disgusting, Jane, is the fear that actually she was watching Jodi Arias`s trial and saw the attention that Jodi Arias got and saw the defense that Jodi Arias tried to give and saw the body language that Jodi Arias tried to get away with. I mean, that is what is so sad.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Swickle.
BIENNE: You`ll think method acting. Brilliant.
SWICKLE: Absolutely. And that`s -- and that`s what I`ve heard in other cases where the defendants were found not guilty. It`s easy to sit back and compare her to Jodi Arias, but there are differences. This young lady called 911. This young lady was interrogated for many hours and didn`t act the same as Jodi Arias.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She didn`t stand on her head...
SWICKLE: Hold on a second. Let me finish.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... but that`s about the only difference.
SWICKLE: I agree with that. But let me finish. People react differently to these types of interrogations. Some people smile. Some people have nervous laughs.
GORDON: I think the laughing is a bit bizarre.
SWICKLE: The question is, was she a victim of domestic violence? And let`s see what happens with the jury. Let`s not talk about impossibilities. Let`s not talk about there`s no way.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Maybe she`s smiling because she figures her husband`s out of the way and now I`m going to get my hands on that 300K that I need to give my secret paramour who I`m you-know-what-ing on the side.
Stay right there. We`re going to take a short break. Your calls are lining up. I want to hear what you at home have to think about this. This woman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... in between lone awkward pauses and a chuckle, she tells the detectives she blacked out. And when she woke up...
DEVAULT: And the next thing I see is -- I saw a hammer go into Dale`s head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEVAULT: I wake up to -- Dale is between my legs. My pants are around my feet. And then the next thing I see is -- I saw a hammer go into Dale`s head. I just -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Stan tried to calm me down. He`s like "Are you OK? Are you OK?" I guess I wasn`t paying attention. I asked him, "Just slap me." The look his face was just like and then he slapped me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. While comparisons to Jodi Arias, it`s happening in the same courthouse and both women changed their stories after they were caught in lies. Remember, this woman says, "Oh, this developmentally disabled renter came to my rescue and hit my husband." Well, after they basically proved that was a lie, then she fell back on Jodi Arias`s final story, that she was in a blackout while she killed her husband. Listen to this. This is Jodi, I believe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER: And I woke up, and he was on top of me. And he had already penetrated and started having sex.
And I didn`t even know that I shot him. It just went off and he was - - he lunged at me, and we fell.
There`s a lot of that day that I don`t remember. There are a lot of gaps.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my God. The list goes on and on. The crazy behavior during the interrogation. Laughing, smiling. You remember Jodi sang at one point a song. She stood on her head. This one`s laughing and joking like she`s on a job interview that`s going really well.
Then they both claim a phony story that nobody buys. Then they fall back on the blackout story. They both had sex right before killing the men that they had sex with. The list goes on and on.
Wow. Let`s go out to the phone lines. They`re lighting up. Michelle, Canada, what do you have to say? Michelle, Canada.
CALLER: First, thank you, Jane, for all the support you give victims and their families. I want to say that first. And now my question, please, is, with this unfortunate story I`m just wondering if everybody killed their husband or their boyfriend, in any case, because they`re both male, what would happen to the male gender in the world? There wouldn`t be any left.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s very interesting you say that. And I want to go to Tammy Roman, actress and reality star with VH-1`s "Basketball Wives." The vast majority of crimes that we cover are male on female or male on male. The reason why this is fascinating is that females killing is still an aberration. Thank God. I mean, we don`t -- it`s not a club that we want more women to join, Tammy.
ROMAN: Absolutely. You know, when you`re in a bad relationship -- and I`ve been there myself -- that`s an opportunity for you to, as a woman, stand up, stand up for yourself and step out and do something for yourself. You can leave that situation. You have a choice. Being violent and, you know, recreating those type of violent...
PATRICK: Right.
SWICKLE: It`s about the inability to get out of the relationship.
ROMAN: Here`s the thing, though. Everyone has a choice and everyone can make that choice to separate themselves from any situation...
SWICKLE: That is completely untrue.
ROMAN: That is definitely the truth.
SWICKLE: That is not what the syndrome is about.
ROMAN: But even if you can`t -- even if you can`t, that does not mean you should pick up the hammer in the middle -- not in the middle...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.
ROMAN: ... of the act happening, not in the middle and you`re defending yourself and you decide, "Oh, I need to pick up something to defend myself`. That`s not what happened. She waited hours. Waited for him to go to sleep and then decided, you know, a hammer is the best thing that I should use to bash his head in. So, no, you do not have to take that course of action.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam, are you telling me -- wait a second. Adam Swickle, are you telling me that the only choice that this woman had, even if hypothetically there wasn`t abuse, a situation, which prosecutors say is a crock of you know what, is to wait till he`s sleeping then then bash his head in with a hammer? Can`t you leave the house call a taxi, "Hey, taxi, take me to the police station. Tame me to family`s house. a relative`s house, get me on a plane. I`m going to go to Cancun.
SWICKLE: I want to go -- I have seen tons of women that find themselves in these situations on both sides of the coin, and they feel there is no other way out.
The pure issue with battered wife syndrome is that they don`t feel like they can get out of the situation, and they don`t always defend themselves at the moment of the violence. She may have felt that this was the only way out of the situation...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Patrick, a quick response.
PATRICK: You know, you point out a lot of parallels. You know, and one of the others is, by the way, not only were there many options available to her, this third person description of what she did, I think, is really telling. Hammers don`t kill people, people kill people.
It`s the same as the Jodi Arias case, sort of this third person almost description of what happened sometimes is very consistent with the physical evidence. There were many other options she had at the time and we know that because supposedly there was a length of time before this happened, if he really was asleep. We can`t just say it was a spur of the moment physical reaction when that`s not consistent with the rest of the evidence here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, is there anything such as an open and shut case anymore? You`d think this would be an obvious one, but it may not. Look at Casey Anthony. Stay right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Based on what you told me, that those incidents happened, that he put his hands on you and beat the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of you, I ask him, what do you do, what do you see?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEVAULT: And I was truly considering a separation and a divorce.
I told him, "Don`t you dare."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He what?
DEVAULT: He started screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was last Friday?
DEVAULT: And I said, "Don`t you dare. I can`t do this anymore. I`m done." I love him. He is an amazing person. He`s just not an amazing person with me. Maybe with someone else he would be. Maybe it`s me. Maybe I bring it out of him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, all pathological liars leave a little bit of the truth. She was cheating on her husband. So yes, she was definitely unhappily married.
Straight out to Sandra Haros, reporter, News Talk 92.3 on the ground in Phoenix. Tell us the back story, the debt, the cheating that this defendant was involved in.
HAROS: This woman has been involved in a secret relationship with a gentleman by the last name of Flores. And because of him, she ended up in serious, serious debt. And the prosecution is claiming that this woman killed her husband to cash in on his insurance policy to pay off that debt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. You say because of him. I thought she was the one that borrowed 300 grand from him. And what did she need 300 grand for?
HAROS: She fell into debt because of him, that`s correct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I mean, she`s a stripper is my understanding. Which also popped out at me. Wait, she`s a wife and mother and she`s a stripper?
HAROS: That`s definitely an understatement. She also, through all of this, it turns out that this Flores guy had kiddy porn on his computers. And no one has really talked about the fact that he was a very controlling individual, according to what she has said. And who`s to say that he didn`t manipulate her into doing what she`s alleged to have done?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he got immunity apparently, in exchange for testifying against her or will testify against her.
HAROS: That`s right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. This is crazy. This guy is a very clean-cut guy. Kind of reminds me of Travis Alexander. Just, you know, a good guy, and he`s hooked up with this woman who`s a stripper, marries her. Probably thinks, you know, well, she`s -- she`s wholesome. It turns out not so much.
And I`ve got to say, Simone Bienne, I don`t want to in any way, shape or form condemn strippers. I know that women work their way through college dancing. If that`s what they want to do, I say, you know, just do want you want as long as you -- as long as you don`t hurt anyone else.
BIENNE: Yes. No we can`t condemn strippers. And actually anyone -- well, not anyone, a lot of women who work in the sex industry like that and sort of sexualized -- oversexualized have already been victims of sexual abuse themselves.
Now, the reason I`m saying this to you, Jane, is because it fits in with our theory that she is a pathological liar psychopath. Because it sends women over the edge.
SWICKLE: Answer this question...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam.
(CROSSTALK)
BIENNE: ... over the edge. You said earlier they seemed mad.
SWICKLE: If there was distinct (inaudible) then answer this question --
(CROSSTALK)
BIENNE: -- what you said earlier made me mad.
SWICKLE: Answer this question -- if the state`s case is so dang good, why are they allying (ph) themselves with this scum? Why are they giving immunity to a guy with child pornography? Why are they putting liars on the stand? It`s ok for them to put --
J. WYNDAL GORDON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the operative words are "insurance policy". Anytime you have a case -- defend a case with an insurance policy, you have a lot to contend with anyway.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time.
GORDON: Anytime you defend a case --
SWICKLE: This has got nothing to do with an insurance policy.
GORDON: -- against someone with an insurance policy --
SWICKLE: The only --
GORDON: -- the mere fact that it`s mentioned in a murder case is going to cause problems for the defense, every time.
SWICKLE: The only reason why --
GORDON: Every time.
SWICKLE: -- there`s an insurance policy argument is so that the state can try to get premeditation. You don`t beat somebody over the head for an insurance policy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sure you do. Sure you do.
GORDON: Why wouldn`t you.
SWICKLE: No, you don`t. No you don`t.
GORDON: And then you claim that he was forcing you to have sex.
SWICKLE: You do a bogley (ph) because everybody --
(CROSSTALK)
SWICKLE: -- knocking somebody else on the head --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Every night we`re going to cover this story. It`s not going anywhere except to the verdict. So stay right there.
On the other side, a man accused of killing his roommate calmly describes in detail -- you will hear his voice in a second -- how he choked his female roommate, a beautiful 20-year-old who loved animals, who was compassionate, who was kind, who was trusting. We`re going to talk to the victim`s brother exclusively on the other side about this monster.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILIP HAMM, KILLED ROOMMATE: At the party we got into a little bit of an argument. And at that point I had been drinking a bit and I kind of blacked out and I ended up grabbing her and, like, I came to and I realized what I had done. And then I stayed away from her at the party for about a half hour, 45 minutes. And then we talked everything out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just -- I`m so in shock and disbelief.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just 20 years old when she died.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Met this guy online, problem number one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why? I mean, she was so precious.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: With zero emotion --
HAMM: I threw her down and was choking her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- as if you`re ordering pizza.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I killed her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a horrifying murder described in just incredible detail by the alleged killer himself. The 911 call you are about to hear will haunt you. A beautiful, innocent, kind-hearted 20-year- old woman was apparently choked to death by her 21-year-old roommate. Here`s part -- this part of his chilling call to 911 after he says he killed her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMM: Yes, I`m going to need police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s it in reference to?
HAMM: Last night, basically this morning my roommate and I got in an argument and I -- I honestly lost my mind and I went off. And I choked her and I killed her. And it probably happened a few hours ago. And I -- honestly, I don`t know what happened to myself. I really don`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I am just nauseated by how blase he is. It sounds like he`s ordering pizza, not confessing to murder.
Look at the tattoo on the victim. Meagan Fambry`s (inaudible). She says "Sometimes good-bye is a second chance. Please don`t cry one tear for me."
But we are very sad for her family and we`re going to talk to her brother exclusively in a second. You know she met the suspect Philip Hamm through mutual friends and online. There`s conflicting stories about that but we`ll get the whole story.
And she had only roomed with him for about three months. Now Meagan clearly had no idea that her roommate had a very dark side and was capable of snapping. The suspect says before killing Meagan, the two had argued during a party and he had begun drinking, ok.
Now my exclusive guest tonight: Meagan`s brother, Anthony Fambry. Anthony, thank you for joining us. I cannot imagine how painful this must be for you. Tell us what your reaction was listening to this 10-minute 911 call where this killer, by his own admission, but we have to say alleged because he hasn`t been convicted in a court of law, describes killing and choking your sister in such monotone tones? Honestly people say it`s like he was ordering pizza.
ANTHONY FAMBRY, BROTHER OF MEAGAN FAMBRY (via telephone): I mean, it`s just terrible. And it wasn`t -- there was now reason. There`s no reason for -- there`s nothing that could have caused such a terrible -- I mean I -- I just don`t get it. I`m still in shock, honestly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I am sure you are. And I know your sister was a beautiful animal lover. She had dogs, she had other animals that you are scrambling to find homes.
FAMBRY: She had --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She had a lot of them and I understand you`re scrambling to find homes for them right now?
FAMBRY: No, the night of, we got them homes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good. Good for you. Back to this horrific situation, how did she meet this character? I know she`s trusting. She`s loving and kind-hearted.
FAMBRY: Yes, a lot of people is confusing when she met him online. There was a few mutual friends that they did have. And the friends, you know, just -- they`re all -- he was 21, she was 20. And they were you know, part of the same scene I`m sure. I never knew the guy. I really truly never met him. But everyone is confusing that she met him online and that she met through mutual friends. Just, you know, with hanging out with friends.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, the weird thing is this guy has no criminal record. I believe alcohol probably played a big factor. And I hope that they gave him on alcohol and/or drug test as soon as they arrived because he called two hours afterwards.
FAMBRY: From what I understood --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, go ahead.
FAMBRY: -- he sobered up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh --
FAMBRY: From what I understand he was sobered up.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So he waited two hours to call so he could sober up. He says he was in a daze.
FAMBRY: No. No. They drank at the party the night before and this all occurred the morning after. He was -- there was no alcohol in his system to our knowledge. You know the toxicology report hasn`t been released to us. But there is no -- nothing has been said about him being drunk at the time of.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They had a fight at the party.
FAMBRY: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let`s listen to another clip of his phone call, extraordinarily blase phone call to 911 admitting to killing your precious sister. And then we`ll talk more about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMM: At the party, we got into a little bit of an argument. And I know at that point I`d been drinking a bit. And I kind of blacked out and I ended up grabbing her. Like, I came to and I realized what I had done. And then I stayed away from her at the party for about a half hour, 45 minutes. And then we talked everything out.
We started arguing again. And I just -- honestly I just, I really I don`t know what happened to myself. Like, I attacked her. I, like, choked her. I threw her down, was choking her. Like I just -- last night, it`s like I would have called sooner, but I just, I honestly didn`t know what was going on in my mind. And, like, it`s -- that`s not -- it`s not who I am.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I guess it is who you are because you did it according to your own admission. By the way, I`m talking exclusively to Anthony Fambry, the brother of the victim, this beautiful young woman who was kind-hearted, loved animals, wanted to work with animals. Look at her -- Sweet, trusting young woman who had the misfortune of coming into contact with this suspect.
They`re trying to raise money for her funeral. If you want to help out, the Twitter handle is $MagentaFambry. We`re going to put it up. @MagentaFambry.
Let me ask you this Anthony. She was with this guy. Usually there`s some other reason besides just an argument. Could he have been sexually attracted to her, were they just roommates and he put the moves on her and she said no?
FAMBRY: She did tell us that he wanted a relationship with her and she told us avidly that there was nothing about him that she was interested in.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s the key to this, Simone Bienne, relationship expert. This is not just about having an argument at a party. This is about a guy getting rejected and not being able to handle it and exploding in violence.
BIENNE: Yes. I actually think that there was something clearly, seriously wrong with him. And the reason I say that, Jane, is not just because of, you know, that very chilling 10-minute call. But just the way that he uses emotive languages. His voice tone is exactly the same.
And if you look at somebody that`s incapable of love, if you`re looking at like the Jodi Arias type, the borderline character, they hold contempt for people who are incredibly loving. So rejection, abandonment - - I don`t know whether he was acting out his childhood melodrama. What we do know is he couldn`t stand somebody who was so loving and clearly he was incapable of love.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So can this guy now say if he gets a good lawyer, oh, well, you know, "I really didn`t do it. Oh, yes, I said I did it but oops, no, I made a mistake."
We`re going to continue on, on the other side. And your calls are lining up. I want to take your calls. Unbelievable ten-minute conversation where he just flat-out admits, yes, I choked her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you right by the subject now?
HAMM: Yes, like we came in last night and we were together and everything. We just came from a party, and we had gotten in -- like, we came in and everything was fine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any weapons?
HAMM: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ok. And you believe you did -- she is passed away?
HAMM: I know she`s passed away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s your name?
HAMM: Philip Hamm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Straight out to the "Lion`s Den", this is an outrage, Wendy Patrick, prosecutor. Now you heard him admit that he did it on the 911 call. Well, he was arraigned. Guess what he pleaded? Not guilty. He`s going to get a public defender. He already has one I think. And they`re going to come up with something. Can they just totally change their story or is he committed to that 911 call?
GORDON: He`s got a --
WENDY PATRICK, PROSECUTOR: Everybody pleads not guilty at arraignment.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on.
PATRICK: Everybody pleads not guilty at arraignment. So the issue is going to be -- you know, now, he said he did it. And the beauty of that 911 call is everybody`s going to get to hear how he explained that he did it. So they`re going to get to take that into consideration if there`s some kind of a mental defense raised down the line.
But the fact that it`s a killing, now what the jurors are going to be asked down the line is what kind of a killing is it? Was it heat of passion? Was it premeditated? What kind of a homicide? How do you classify this?
And what you just heard and what we`re going to, you know, hear down the line, all is going to factor into what is going to be the defense of choice when this gets far enough down the road.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well Adam Swickle, given that he got drunk and argued with her at the party and apparently tried to choke her initially at the party, I would say it has to be premeditated.
SWICKLE: Not really, Jane. We don`t know what he talked -- we`re talking about alcohol. But we`ve got to get that toxicology report. We also have to do an evaluation of the psychological condition in the past.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, if you`re stoned -- if you`re stoned that means it`s ok? You can kill somebody --
SWICKLE: No. Nobody`s saying -- no, nobody`s saying it`s ok, Jane. But there are explanations to why things would happen, especially a gentleman who`s never committed a crime in the past. You never know what you`re going to find --
GORDON: I think he was rejected by --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: J. Wyndal, weigh in.
SWICKLE: You never know what you`re going to find.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: J. Wyndal. J. Wyndal -- weigh in.
SWICKLE: You never know what you`re going to find.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: J. Wyndal, weigh in.
GORDON: Yes. He was rejected by a woman who he had an interest in and he bowled over and --
SWICKLE: How do you know these things?
GORDON: I`m so sick of this black out defense because that one went nowhere.
(CROSSTALK)
GORDON: I can look at him and listen to the facts that we know and make a reasonable conclusion --
SWICKLE: Oh, yes, for sure.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Adam Swickle -- I`m trying to listen to J. Wyndal Gordon -- ok. I understand you want to debate. But let him finish his sentence. J. Wyndal, go ahead.
GORDON: We can look at the facts that we know already. And we can come to a reasonable conclusion. Now, what the jury chooses to believe is one thing. But what I`ve chosen to believe based upon what I`ve heard so far is that he was rejected by a woman, he got upset and he was mad at the party. He calmed down but the whole time at the party, he`s stewing. He`s stewing and he`s waiting for an opportunity to address her again in private and he kills her. So whether it`s first degree or second degree --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to leave it right there. We`ve got to leave it right there. We`ve got another extraordinary story.
BIENNE: It`s the same as Jodi Arias. It`s the tipping point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: On the other side, does this look like a gun to you? You won`t believe how this --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was WII remote he was (inaudible) as she shot him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Supposedly he opened the door with a BB gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a WII controller in his hand. He heard a knock at the door. This just doesn`t add up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does it look like a gun to you? Does it look threatening at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She came out of this house, she put her head in her hands and she was sobbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, coast to coast outrage, a 17-year old high school student shot in the chest and killed outside his mobile home when he answers the door to a cop. Christopher Roupe`s family says he was holding this, his Nintendo WII controller. It doesn`t look threatening to me.
Was this police officer trigger-happy?
Christopher, a high school senior -- two cops show up to serve his dad with a probation violation. The female cop says she felt threatened when she heard a firearm go off inside the home. She claims when the front door opened, the teen pointed a gun at her but the family says no, it was a WII controller.
Wendy Patrick, prosecutor, either there was a gun or it was WII controller, they`ve got to be able to figure that out pretty fast.
PATRICK: Right. That`s one of the facts that they`re going to be looking into. But you know, what makes these cases so difficult is what they`re going to be looking into in the investigation is not what we now know in retrospect but what facts and circumstances were presented at the time.
What did that officer -- what did she see, hear? What did she think she was going to find? The adrenaline that`s coming -- she hears what she thinks is a gun being loaded so her weapon is drawn. She`s in the moment and they`re going to look at whether or not reasonable force was justified given the facts presented to her at the time. It`s so easy for us to look back.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tammy Roman, are we becoming a trigger-happy society?
TAMI ROMAN, REALITY TV STAR: I absolutely think so and I understand what the young lady just said about, you know, analyzing all the facts. But at the end of the day what happened to formalities of "Stop. Freeze. Put down your weapon. Hold please." Whatever you want to say to get that person, you know, to put down their weapons before you blast him in the chest.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I got to say. Look at this youngster. His whole life is ahead of him. My heart goes out to his family. Oh, my gosh. Is this a gun? That is crazy.
Nancy Grace is next.
We`re going to stay on top of this.
END
