Return to Transcripts main page


License to Discriminate?; Interview with Arizona State Senator Al Melvin

Aired February 24, 2014 - 20:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. A very big night, including a growing backlash against a bill that says it's OK for a business to deny someone's service if they say it's part of their religious beliefs. Supporters say it's pro-freedom but we're "Keeping Them Honest."

Also tonight we'll take you inside the takedown of one of the world's most wanted Mexican drug lords. A big get.

And later, a warning any pregnant woman needs to know about the painkiller that most pregnant women are told to actually take. How safe is the active ingredient in Tylenol and so many other pain pills. Dr. Sanjay Gupta with some new information tonight.

We begin, though, "Keeping Them Honest" on Arizona Senate bill 1062, legislation that would allow businesses in Arizona to refuse service on the basis of religious beliefs of their owners. Refusing service to gays, lesbians, unmarried mothers, unmarried couples. Virtually anyone who isn't already protected under the Federal Civil Rights Act.

As these live pictures of protesters in Phoenix show, this bill which arrived in Governor Jan Brewer's desk today faces strong opposition from gay and lesbian people in Arizona and others. What the picture do now show is the opposition to the bill from business leaders who fear that SB-1062 will lead to boycotts of the state.

Arizona's two Republican U.S. senators, John McCain and Jeff Flake have said they also want Governor Brewer to veto it. So does several state Republican lawmakers who actually voted for the bill well now are having second thoughts. One of them defends its intentions, saying what many defenders of the bill say that it's not anti-gay but pro-freedom of religion.

Here's an attorney for the Alliance Defending Freedom. That's a national group that actually helped draft SB-1062.


KELLIE FIEDOREK, ALLIANCE DEFENDING FREEDOM: There's been a lot of lies and misinformation spread about this bill. And what this bill is not about denying people's services. This bill is advocating for basic freedom, ensuring that everyone's human dignity is respected and that the government is not allowed to force or to coerce or compel anyone to violate their sincerely held beliefs or to go against their conscience. This is basically to keep the government from discriminating against people of faith.


COOPER: So that's the ADF line. That their pro-religious freedom. They're not anti-gay or anti-anyone else. They're not pro discrimination of anyone. Just -- they're trying to stop discrimination against religious groups and individuals.

But "Keeping Them Honest", thought, defending freedom may be part of the name of this group, but the mission, they focus heavily on all things gay. ADF lobbied against lifting the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, for example. They filed a Friend of the Court brief in "Lawrence v. Texas" in support of Texas' anti-sodomy law. They oppose same-sex marriage, obviously.

ADF president Alan Sears has written a book titled, "The Homosexual Agenda, Exposing the Principal Threat to Religious Freedom Today." And overseas in Belize, according to a report from the Southern Poverty Law Center, ADF supports legislation in that making gay sex a crime.

Now in a moment, one of the Arizona state senators who stands behind SB-1062, also an exclusive with Governor Jan Brewer, but first, Miguel Marquez live in Phoenix.

Miguel, you're at a protest. Are they starting to gather outside the capital there? I understand that they're going to keep coming back, that there was a protest on Friday that you reported from?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is actually growing here tonight, Anderson, I'm going to show you what's happening here. About 400, perhaps 500 people have shown up and it's not just gays and lesbians who are out in front of the capital now. It is Democratic gubernatorial nominees, it is rabbis from local synagogues here, and even priests, all of them coming out from all different communities now to voice their concern about this bill.

This protest here really beginning to grow. In fact they want to keep this thing going tomorrow and possibly an all-night sort of presence or demonstration here at the capital on Wednesday. Basically they want to have a presence at the capital until Governor Brewer decides what she's going to do -- Anderson.

COOPER: There are still obviously plenty of people in the state who support this and religious organizations support the bill, they say they're not going to be deterred by these protests, which, as you say, just have a few hundred people?

MARQUEZ: Well, the biggest problem that religious organizations have right now is that those three senators who previously supported it now have come out against it, but that said, there are many, many in the community here who still support this, they feel that religion is under attack in Arizona and around the country. That they fear -- from what I can understand and pick up, they fear that when a marriage proposal comes down the pike here in Arizona in 2016, an initiative on the ballot here, that Arizona will be opened up to a lot of the same concerns as many other places in the country.

I spoke to one Christian business owner today who gave me her take on whether or not she would allow gays to join her business.


MAIA ARNESON, CHRISTIAN BUSINESS NETWORKING: I don't necessarily -- I don't really address that within Christian Business Networking, whether someone's gay or not gay.

MARQUEZ: Right. But would they be welcome in the network if they were?

ARNESON: Would they be welcome in the network? Give me just a second. I'm sorry.


MARQUEZ: Now, look, I don't want to make too much of what she said or the pause there, but basically the reason she paused, it's a very tough question for people to wrestle with, though, because they have very deeply held religious beliefs and they see that the rights being afforded to gays and lesbians across the country as some -- as a threat to their way of life.

It is a very difficult thing for them to face up to, and they are starting to wrestle with this so you really see that bigger fight across the country coming to Arizona and this is the result of it -- Anderson.

COOPER: I said Jan Brewer -- Governor Brewer is going to be on in a moment.

Our Dana Bash tracked her down. She has the bill and has until Saturday to act. And in a moment I have an interview right before our broadcast with a state senator who's actually running for governor in Arizona. He supports this bill, SB-1062.

We have a pretty intense exchange that I want you to stick around for and we're going to play that in a moment. But the only way to stop this is with a veto right now. A veto by the governor.

Dana Bash caught up with the governor who watched in to our exclusive interview. She joins us now.

So you managed to track her down at her hotel where she's staying for the National Governors Association this morning. What did she say?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's reluctant to talk about which way she'll go, especially because she's here in Washington and not in Arizona, but it is really clear she gets the consequences of her decision.


BASH: The bill is going to hit your desk back in Arizona today. You haven't seen it yet, I understand that, but you are very well aware of what's in it. Where is your mind right now on what you might do?

GOV. JAN BREWER (R), ARIZONA: Well, you know, certainly I'm going to go home and when I receive the bill, and I'm going to read it and I'm going to be briefed on it. We have been following it and I will make any decision in the near future. I have until Friday or Saturday morning to determine that so.

BASH: Now I've seen some reports of business leaders in your state very upset and afraid of what the damage could be to businesses in your state. Super Bowl is coming next year and obviously there are a lot of other potential problems. Is that weighing on you?

BREWER: Well, of course. But, you know, I have a history of deliberating and having an open dialogue on bills that are controversial to listen to both sides of those issues, and I welcome the input and information they can provide to me. And certainly I am pro business and that is what's turning our economy around. So I appreciate their input as I appreciate the other side.

BASH: Yes, I get as a governor you have to deliberate. It's your job. But as a person and as a woman and as somebody who, you know, sort of understands the plight of all kinds of people, where does your gut lie right now?

BREWER: Well, you know, I am a woman, and I don't rely a whole lot on my gut because I have to look at what it says and what the law says and take that information and do the right thing. But I can assure you, as always, I will do the right thing for the state of Arizona.


BASH: You see Governor Brewer was being very cautious in her public comments. But in private, people in Arizona who know her, when they say they're confident she'll do the right thing, that they believe that almost surely means she will veto this bill. And the main reasons is because we just heard her say, that she considers herself a pro-business governor, Anderson. Someone who above all else wants to protect and promote Arizona's economic interest.

And she knows full well, there will be massive economic retribution against her state if there's a law in the books that could be perceived as codifying discrimination.

COOPER: Right.

BASH: So I'm reminded also that last year she vetoed a very similar bill.

COOPER: All right, Dana, appreciate it. Thanks very much.

Now Arizona Republican state senator, Al Melvin, he voted for the bill, he wants Governor Brewer to sign it, in fact he's running for governor of the state. He spent a lot of time exploring all the angles on the measure. Here's part one of the interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Senator, this law came about in reaction to cases in other states where people have been sued because they refused to contribute in some way to a same-sex wedding. A wedding photographer in New Mexico, for example. And I know you say this is an attempt in Arizona to protect people's religious beliefs.

But the places where it's occurred in other states like New Mexico are states that have laws against discriminating against people based on sexual orientation. So Arizona doesn't have a state law protecting gay people. So -- there's no federal law either. So it's already illegal to refuse service to someone who's gay in most cities in Arizona already, correct?

AL MELVIN (R), ARIZONA SENATE: Well, the bottom line for us and those who voted for it, and it was a majority in both chambers is it's as basic as religious freedom. You could say that it might be preemptive after we saw what has taken place in some other states, but we think it's nothing more and nothing less than protecting religious freedom in our state and we take that very seriously.

COOPER: And I understand that but it is legal already to discriminate against somebody who's gay in Arizona, that you can fire somebody because they're gay. There's no law against that in most cities in Arizona, correct?

MELVIN: Well, we -- I've been in our Senate for six years and I don't know of any provision in our state laws to discriminate against anyone.

COOPER: But what -- but, sir, as you --


MELVIN: For Democrats and Republicans alike that we don't -- we don't want to discriminate against anybody.

COOPER: Right, but under federal law and under Arizona law, except for a few cities, there's no sexual orientation that's not included among race and gender and disability, things you can't discriminate against, correct?

MELVIN: Well --

COOPER: It's yes or no, correct?

MELVIN: Well, that's why this bill -- well, this bill will prevent discrimination, and that's what we want to do here.

COOPER: But, sir, with respect you're not answering the question. Under Arizona law, state law, sexual orientation is not included in anti-discrimination legislation correct?


COOPER: OK. So it's legal -- you can fire somebody for being gay already, correct? MELVIN: We don't want that to happen here.

COOPER: Right, but --

MELVIN: That's not my understanding --

COOPER: But it can happen.

MELVIN: And I would -- I don't know of anybody that would advocate that or stand for it.

COOPER: OK. But under this law, you say it's all about protecting people of faith in Arizona. Can you give me a specific example of someone in Arizona who's been forced to do something against their religious belief or successfully sued because of their faith?

MELVIN: Again, I think if anything, you -- this bill is preemptive to protect priests.

COOPER: You can't give me one example of this actually happening?

MELVIN: I -- no, I can't. But I've -- we've seen it in other states and we don't want it to happen here.

COOPER: But it's happened in other states that have laws protecting gay people specifically, that's what this bill is all about. And in Arizona they don't have laws protecting gay people so it can't happen in Arizona?

MELVIN: Well, sir, the bottom line is, this is not a discrimination bill, this is a religious freedom bill. We want to protect religious freedom here.

COOPER: But you can't cite one example where religious freedom is under attack in Arizona.

MELVIN: Not now, no. But how about tomorrow?


COOPER: So that's part one of the interview, we're going to have a lot more right after this break. That's Senator Melvin, we'll have him right back.

We also get reaction from NYU law professor Kenji Yoshino.

Let us know what you think, let's talk about it on Twitter during commercial break @Andersoncooper, just tweet using #ac360.

Also ahead tonight, millions of pregnant women take it because they've been told it's safe. The active ingredient in Tylenol and many other pain killers. New research is now raising real concerns about what it can do to a developing child. Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Welcome back. We're talking about Arizona's SB-1062 bill, and the question whether it targets anybody or was inspired by any fear of, animus against or disdain for any people or a group of people. In a moment NYU law professor Kenji Yoshino joins us, but first, part two of my conversation with Arizona Republican state senator who supports the bill, Al Melvin, who is running for governor, by the way.


COOPER: Help me understand. Under your law, under this law, if I'm a Catholic loan officer, say, in a bank, and I don't like the idea of loaning money to a divorced woman because Jesus spoke against divorce very strongly, or I don't want to loan money to an unwed mother, even though she might be, you know, able to pay me back as a loan officer. I just don't -- it's against my religious belief and my religious belief is sincere.

Under your law, I could refuse to do business with an unwed mother or a divorced woman, correct?

MELVIN: I don't know where you're getting your hypotheticals from, sir. Divorced women and what was the other one you cited?

COOPER: Unwed mother. I mean, Jesus spoke --

MELVIN: Who would be against an unwed mother? I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be against a divorced woman.

COOPER: But, sir, as you know --

MELVIN: And you don't --


COOPER: Sir --

MELVIN: Discrimination to the nth degree.

COOPER: No, actually, sir, I'm just talking about what Jesus talked. Jesus spoke against divorce. He actually spoke against divorce, he never said anything about gay people. So there are plenty of people who would oppose doing business with a gay person. I'm saying, if under your law, if it's a sincere belief on the part of that loan officer and doing business with that unwed mother or that divorced woman, would not be a trivial or a technical or a minor burden on my beliefs, and that's my argument under your law, I don't have to do business with that person.

MELVIN: I think you're being farfetched, with all due respect, sir. As a Christian, as most God-fearing men and women would respect unwed mothers, divorced women, who would discriminate against them? I've never heard of discriminating against people like that. I never have. I -- I don't know where you're --

COOPER: But I've read your law -- MELVIN: -- getting your hypotheticals from, sir.

COOPER: Well, by reading your law. And I'm coming up with an example of somebody who might be -- who has a -- there's plenty of people who oppose divorce and who have a sincere belief that it is absolutely wrong, that marriage is for life, they made a vow. And they don't want to do some business with someone who's divorce.

Under your law, as long as that belief is sincere and as long as it's not a minor interaction that you have to have with that person, which I would argue loaning money to that person is not a minor interaction or a technical interaction. Under your law, it's certainly something that could be -- go to the courts about.

MELVIN: I don't believe so, sir.


MELVIN: You know, all of the pillars of society are under attack in the United States. The family, the traditional family, traditional marriage, mainline churches, the Boy Scouts, you name it.

COOPER: So no -- so no florist in Arizona is going to be forced to participate in a gay wedding because, A, you don't have gay weddings in Arizona, and you're not going to any time soon. And B, under Arizona law, it's OK to discriminate against a gay person and refuse them service already.

So that's two reasons why no person of faith --

MELVIN: I don't --

COOPER: -- is going to be forced to interact with a gay person at their wedding. It's not going to happen in Arizona?

MELVIN: With all due respect, sir, I don't know of anybody in Arizona that would discriminate against a fellow human being.

COOPER: Really, nobody?

MELVIN: No Christian or no Jew that I know of.

COOPER: I know people in New York that would discriminate plenty.

MELVIN: Not that I know of.

COOPER: Really? There's nobody -- discrimination doesn't exist in Arizona?

MELVIN: Well, maybe you ought to move to Arizona, we're more people friendly here, apparently.

COOPER: You're on the tourism caucus.

MELVIN: You know --

COOPER: I understand, in the Senate. Aren't you concerned about the impact on --


MELVIN: I started it.

COOPER: You started it.

MELVIN: I started the -- I started the tourism caucus, we are number in the country by most business magazines as the best state in the country to start a business. We're number one for job creation as per "Forbes" magazine.

COOPER: But as you know, businesses have --

MELVIN: And we're number eight in overall pro business climate.

COOPER: But as you know businesses have come out saying that this is -- this is bad for business. This is bad for the state. But go ahead, I'm sorry.

MELVIN: Because as you -- because there has become a media frenzy on this, that has caused other candidates for governor that buckle --


COOPER: You're seriously blaming the media on this?

MELVIN: -- under the pressure of the media.

COOPER: Come on.

MELVIN: Yes, well, but when -- when you take discrimination against unwed mothers and divorced women, I have never heard of that in my entire life. It's like you're starting a cottage industry of perceived and --

COOPER: Are you telling me that there's nobody who opposes divorce? You're telling me there's nobody who opposes divorce?

MELVIN: Everybody that I know wants strong marriages. Strong traditional marriages. They want them. And divorce is a sad thing. It usually hurts children, and we don't want that. That's why we want to strengthen traditional marriage as defined between one man and one woman.

COOPER: But you're saying -- you're assuming under your law that everybody has the sort of the same religious beliefs as you do. But there are many -- there are dozens of religions.

MELVIN: No, I'm not.

COOPER: Well, there's probably hundreds of religions in the United States with all sorts of different beliefs.

MELVIN: Yes. COOPER: So you're saying everybody has to be able to act according to their own beliefs. And I understand that desire, that's part of America to protect your religious freedom. That's one of the great things about this country.


COOPER: But at the same time can a society exist --

MELVIN: And that's what this bill is all about.

COOPER: But can a society exist where everybody gets to decide who they interact with and who they don't based solely on their religious beliefs and -- for whatever reason, irrationally, somebody doesn't like somebody else, as long as it's a sincerely held belief under your law, they don't have to deal with that person?

MELVIN: This bill is designed for religious freedom. No matter how you twist and try to turn it. That's what -- that is the bottom line here.


COOPER: It is. No question.

MELVIN: There is no believe perceived, it was no belief voted on, and we hope the governor signs it into law.

COOPER: If somebody is fired because they're gay or lesbian in your state, is that discrimination? Would you say that's discrimination?

MELVIN: I -- I don't know of anybody that discriminates in our state, sir.


MELVIN: Including if you --


COOPER: I'm just saying, but if somebody -- if somebody is fired, a boss doesn't like some guy on their staff or a woman on their staff because they're gay or lesbian and they're fired for that, which is legal because there's no protection against sexual orientation, is that discrimination?

MELVIN: You know, you're trying to distort a religious freedom bill and --


COOPER: Sir, you're running for governor of the state of Arizona. You're running for governor of the state of Arizona.

MELVIN: I am, sir. Yes, I am.

COOPER: You're going to be governor of gay and lesbian people.

MELVIN: Yes, sir.

COOPER: And you can't even go on the record and say if a gay and lesbian person is fired simply for being gay or lesbian, that's discrimination? You can't even make that leap and just say, yes, that would be discrimination?

MELVIN: I -- I don't know of any case like you just cited, sir.

COOPER: I want to give you one more opportunity because I think this is going to come back on you. If somebody anywhere in America is fired because they're gay or lesbian, and that's the reason they're fired, just because somebody doesn't like them, and it's legal in that state, is that discrimination?

MELVIN: I'm against all discrimination and I want maximum religious freedom, sir.

COOPER: So, OK, that's -- you can't answer that question then. I gave you the opportunity --

MELVIN: That's my answer to you.

COOPER: I hear you.

MELVIN: I know -- I know you're trying to set me up, and I'm not going to stand for it, sir.

COOPER: OK. Senator Al Melvin, appreciate your time, thank you.

MELVIN: OK, thank you.


COOPER: And I want to introduce you to Kenji Yoshino, a constitutional law professor from New York University.

All right, Kenji, you just heard what the senator has to say. One, he says that if a Catholic loan officer doesn't want to loan to a divorced woman, he can't imagine that scenario happening, but he didn't -- he just said that would never happen.

Under this law, if I'm a loan officer with a sincere religious belief and I don't want to loan money to a divorced woman, is that legal?

KENJI YOSHINO, NYU LAW PROFESSOR: That would be absolutely legal under this law.

COOPER: So when you hear the senator saying there is no discrimination in Arizona that he can never even imagine or see, what do you make of his argument?

YOSHINO: Yes, I think that he's just -- well, I -- I really don't know what to make of that, because when I look at the history of -- I'm trying to be -- say the things that are both true and kind here, Anderson.

But when I think about what the impetus behind this bill was, it really clearly was this New Mexico case, the Elaine photography case.

COOPER: A wedding photographer in New Mexico refused to take weddings at a same-sex wedding?

YOSHINO: Exactly right. So I think that's one of the reasons why the gay and lesbian community experience this as such an affront is that it's sort of -- you know, the solution we're looking for our problem, assuming that you think of civil rights for gays and lesbians are the problems.

I mean, there isn't a statute that would protect gays and lesbians in the first place. So it seems like a little bit of overkill to come with a statute that says we have the religious right to opt out of giving equal rights to gays and lesbians.

COOPER: It's interesting to me that a guy who's running for governor of a state, who wants to, you know, be governor of all people, would not have even thought about whether firing somebody for being gay or lesbian is even discrimination. I mean, I -- because I didn't want to surprise him with that question, which is why I wanted to give him the opportunity to answer several times, but it seems like he hasn't even thought about that.

YOSHINO: Well, I read it a little differently, Anderson. I read him as saying, you know, there's no good answer I can give here because if I give the honest answer which is to say, I don't think that's discrimination --

COOPER: It's going to sound bad.

YOSHINO: -- because I think this is a simple lifestyle, and it's against my religion, which is what many people --

COOPER: Right.

YOSHINO: You know, believe on that Senate floor. Right? Essentially putting lipstick on that pig, right?

COOPER: Right. And, you know, I'm fine -- I mean, I'm a gay guy, but I'm fine if somebody believes that, it doesn't -- it doesn't bother me, I don't -- you know, everybody is entitled to their opinion. It's just always interesting to me that nobody actually is willing to come out and really say that rarely or people willing to come out and say that directly?

YOSHINO: Yes. And in fact to that point, I mean, one of the proposed amendments to this bill is to say you can actually discriminate under SB-1062, but you actually have to say, I'm doing it on conscience of objective grounds. So that you would have to say -- put a sign in your window that said, I'm a conscientious objective to gay people.


YOSHINO: And that's amendment was voted down.

COOPER: Really? So under the law, you don't have to be that? You don't have to explain why you're refusing?

YOSHINO: Under this bill, right, which is not allowed --

COOPER: Yes, under this bill.

YOSHINO: Yes. Under this bill, you do not have to do that. And the proposed amendment that would have forced individuals to do that and held them at least accountable -- forced them to be transparent about exactly what they were doing was voted down. And I thought what the senator was doing in his exchange with you just now was a more individualistic version of what happened on the Senate floor in Arizona.

Because once again, he didn't want to come out and say it, because it's not nice or polite to say that you want to discriminate against anybody but this whole we don't hate anybody but we don't want people to have their right, is very tough -- tightrope for them to walk.

COOPER: It's fascinating. Kenji, thank you so much for being with us.

YOSHINO: Thanks for having me, Anderson. Always a pleasure.

COOPER: Well, there is more of the interview both with Professor Yoshino and also Senator Melvin online, completely unedited.

Just ahead, we had to edit some of it for time. But didn't change any of the -- the meaning of the interview but you can check if all out online at

Coming up next, could the active ingredient in Tylenol and a lot of other painkillers be harmful to developing babies? So we're talking about pregnant women here taking Tylenol and other thing with acetaminophen in it. Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins me ahead to put a new study in perspective. Really information you should know about tonight.

Plus inside the dramatic raid that ended with the world's most wanted drug kingpin in handcuffs. Mexican officials caught El Chapo, their bin Laden. How they finally, finally got him.


COOPER: Welcome back. Tonight, new medical studies raising some serious questions about the popular pain killer acetaminophen, the active ingredient in Tylenol and many other over-the-counter pain pill. Pregnant women have long been told it's safe to use acetaminophen because unlike ibuprofen and aspirin, it won't hurt the babies that they are carrying.

But in this new study, researchers found that children whose moms took acetaminophen while they were pregnant were more likely to develop ADHD, the attention deficit disorder. The study didn't find the painkiller caused ADHD, but it did find a link.

It's a little confusing. We wanted to find out more about what that actually means. So chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us tonight.

So Sanjay, this finding, how significant is it?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: This could be a pretty significant finding. You know, keep in mind that Tylenol is one of the most common medications that women take during pregnancy, more than half the women in this study say they took it during pregnancy at some point.

But also there are not a lot of other good options for women to take during pregnancy. Ibuprofen, those types of medications is not a good idea. Asprirn is not a good idea. So if you're having pain or fever or something like that, Tylenol, sort of your best bet.

And also the final part, fever is something you want to control during pregnancy. It can be problematic for the unborn baby, so you've got to treat it with something. That's why there's a lot of attention on this.

Let me just point out real quick, Anderson, what they found specifically was that women who are taking Tylenol, acetaminophen for at least one day a week over 20 weeks of the pregnancy.

They're at the highest risk of having a child diagnosed with ADHD. So you know, in fact, the ratio is almost doubled in those women who are taking that much Tylenol.

COOPER: Which sounds very significant?

GUPTA: Yes, it is significant. This is what we call an association. There's no cause an effect here yet, that's something that can take a long time to find and investigate, but it's a large study. A significant finding and the numbers really are worth paying attention to.

COOPER: How would a pain reliever like acetaminophen, how would it actually contribute to ADHD?

GUPTA: The right answer is, we don't know, and people who say they know for sure probably don't. What they think could be happening is, that Tylenol could be acting as what is known as an endocrine disrupter. As the baby is developing, the fetus is developing. There are all sorts of hormones that are telling the body to do certain things.

Develop this organ, that organ, develop the brain. If some of those hormones are disrupted, the brain may not be getting some of the signals it needs during some very crucial points of development. Again, that's a hypothesis, Anderson, that we don't know for sure, this whole study, we don't know if there's a cause and effect here.

COOPER: So I mean, the bottom line, for someone who's pregnant. What should a woman do? Do they stop taking Tylenol during pregnancy?

GUPTA: Here's what I would say. I thought about this quite a bit. You know, looking at all the different things women take Tylenol during pregnancy, for fevers, I think, it's the best option, something that's going to be safe to take, and safer than letting a fever go unmitigated.

For things like muscle pain or joint pain, things like that, you know, doing non-medicated therapies, hot bath, these are some of the things the study author recommended, may sound simplistic, Anderson, but again, you want to try to reduce the amount of Tylenol as much as possible.

We did hear from Johnson and Johnson, the makers of Tylenol as well. They point out the same thing that I've been telling you, this is not a cause and effect study. That has not been established and they say, obviously talk to your doctor any time you take a medication, but this one's safe to take, they say.

COOPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, I appreciate the advice. Thanks.

GUPTA: You got it, thank you.

COOPER: We have more medical news just ahead. The latest on a mysterious illness that's paralyzing kids.

Plus one of the world's most notorious drug lords was sound asleep with AK-47 at his side reportedly when the commandos showed up at his house. How the super stealth raid that captured "El Chapo" went down.


COOPER: Tonight, the world's most wanted drug lord is spending his third night behind bars after more than a decade on the run. His name is El Chapo. That's his nickname "El Chapo" Guzman was captured over the weekend in a pre-dawn raid in a Mexican resort town. He was asleep when Mexican Marines showed up.

He's not looking at his best obviously in that photo, but don't be fooled. Authorities say he's every bit a drug king pin. The notorious head of the Sinaloa cartel whose reach into the U.S. is deep. He's also legendary for his ability to elude the law. That is until now.

Tonight, Brian Todd, has new details about how authorities finally caught him.


BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Mexican official says Joaquin "El Chappo" Guzman was, quote, "our Bin Baden. At the end of a 13-year manhunt, we get details of his capture." At 6:40 a.m. in a surgical operation, on Saturday, in what's described as a surgical operation, an elite unit of Mexican Marines burst into this apartment in Mazatlan, Mexico. They find the world's most wanted drug lord lying shirtless next to his beauty queen wife, current and former officials tell CNN not a single shot was fired.

MICHAEL VIGIL, FORMER DEA CHIEF OF INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS: He had an AK-47 next to the bed. When the Mexican Marines entered the condominium, he was still asleep. They used the element of surprise and he did not have a chance to react and seize his weapon.

TODD: Michael Vigil is a former senior DEA official who says he was briefed on the raid. A Mexican official tells us the Marines knew Guzman and his bodyguard were asleep because they used infrared and body heat scanners to detect their positions. They say Guzman's 2- year-old twin daughters were also in the apartment.

But how did they know he was there? Just days earlier, arrests of several operatives in Guzman's Sinaloa cartel yielded a trove of intelligence on his whereabouts, which Mexican and U.S. officials shared.

DUNCAN WOOD, WOODROW WILSON CENTER: The highly successful operation very well coordinated where you using both human intelligence and you know, the technological side of things where you are tracking down cell phones and zeroing in on a particular location.

TODD: Just before he got to Mazatlan, U.S. and Mexican officials say Mexican Marines raided one of Guzman's safe houses in Culiacan. It took them several minutes to get past a reinforced steel door. Officials say that gave Guzman enough time to escape through a hidden hatch under a bathtub.

They later discovered a series of tunnels between his houses in Culiacan. He was eventually able to use those and the city's sewer system to evade authorities and get to Mazatlan 135 miles south. But by the time of his capture, officials say, the man known for ingenious and airtight security had gotten sloppy.

WOOD: He was getting tired of having to move around from place to place, the increasing frequency of his visits to beach resorts and to cities is either hubris or it is just the general tiredness, the fatigue of having to be in hiding for that amount of time.

TODD: Mexican officials now have in custody the man named Chicago's public enemy number one. The DEA says Guzman was responsible for 80 percent of the drugs in that city, and at least 25 percent of all the narcotics flowing into the U.S. from Mexico.


COOPER: Brian Todd joins us live now. It's an incredible story. Where is he now?

TODD: Anderson, we are told by a Mexican official that he is being held in a basement of a prison in Mexico State in Mexico that he's being kept away from the general prison population. This official says he's being held in isolation, that's he's being watched 24 hours a day, and the video surveillance is part of that. They are keeping very close watch on him right now.

COOPER: All right, thanks, Brian. Appreciate it. During all the years "El Chapo" was on the run, the hunt for him took a lot of twist, a lot of turns, he was captured on his home turf in the Mexican State where the cartel inspired.

Gary Tuchman went there last year when there were rumors that "El Chapo" had been killed. Here's what he found and a warning some of the images are graphic.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is one of the most dangerous spots in Mexico, a place where few outsiders go.

(on camera): We're driving through the heart of the Mexican State of Sinaloa. It's the home of the certain multi-national business known as the Sinaloa cartel, one of the most powerful, wealthy, brutal, ruthless drug cartels there ever was. Its leader is a man by the name of Joaquin Guzman, better known as "El Chapo" and this is his home.

This is El Chapo back in 1993, after he had been captured, but in 2001 he escaped from prison in a laundry cart. He is the most wanted man in Mexico, marijuana, cocaine, meth, heroin and murder are all part of his business. Violent scenes like these, bodies stuffed in garbage bags, police executed and journalists assassinated are directly connected to the wrath of his Sinaloa cartel.

Much of the blood is spilled here, the largest city in Sinaloa and the violent nerve center of the cartel. This rumored spread that El Chapo was killed in a gunfight. No here seemed to believe it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translation): Around here, he is the legend of Sinaloa.

TUCHMAN: That mystique is part of the reason people are protective of him. He was seen as a modern day Robin Hood. Helping churn the Sinaloan economy with drug money, a common feeling? Leave El Chapo and his cartel alone and he'll leave us alone.

At the Sinaloa Cathedral, one of the priests says it's commonly understood that people mind their manners when it comes to El Chapo and his bloody exploits.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From people from around here, know not to speak about "El Chapo". We don't talk about it.

TUCHMAN: Just drive around here and you'll see how he and his members are idolized. Nothing idolizes the trafficking trade here. Money lines the walls and ceiling of a place of prayer. A man many compare to El Chapo. This is a sign you never expect to see.

A chapel dedicated to a man born in 1870. He is considered a patron saint for drug dealers and those who sympathize with drug dealers. He was considered a Robin Hoods back in his time. (on camera): Drug dealers come here, families of drug dealers come here to pray for people who have died, and good transport of the drugs up north.

This is a chapel right inside here, in Spanish it says thank you to God, thank you to St. Jude for the favor of protecting our family. And it's signed by a family.

(voice-over): But the most bizarre scene in Sinaloa may be this. Driving down the street, it first looks like you're entering a neighborhood. This is a cemetery where cartel members are buried.

(on camera): This looks like a house, but it's not. There's a body buried in here, it's a tomb.

(voice-over): There are scores of similar mausoleums in the cemetery. With the faces of the drug kingpins posted outside the crypts. Traffickers who likely grew up in poverty and homes much smaller than their final resting places and when the drug trade is glorified like this, it's easy to see how someone like El Chapo could elude capture for so long. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Culiacan, Mexico.


COOPER: Those mausoleums are incredible.

Still ahead tonight, what is making kids sick in California? A doctor investigating a mystery illness that's left several children paralyzed.

Also a pilot keeps his cool and his camera rolling after a bird smashes into his windshield. Details ahead.


COOPER: There's a lot more happening tonight, Susan Hendricks is here with a "360 Bulletin."

SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a mysterious polio-like syndrome has caused partial paralysis in at least five children in California. Right now, there is no hope of recovery. The cases go back as far as 2012 and all of the patients were vaccinated for polio.

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel is recommending massive cuts in military spending, this includes shrinking the U.S. Army to pre-World War II levels and also retiring the A-10 attack jet. Hagel will formally submit his 2015 budget proposal to Congress next week where he will face opposition from Republicans.

Hollywood is mourning the death of comedian/actor, writer and director, Harold Ramis, best known for his work on "Ghostbuster." Another hit film he co-wrote "Animal House," "Caddy Shack," the list really goes on. He died from complications related to an autoimmune disease. He was 69.

Over the weekend, a pilot kept his cool and managed to land his small plane in Fort Myers, Florida after a bird did that, shattered his cockpit window mid-flight. He was going about 170 miles an hour at the moment of impact. He's had several close calls but not a direct hit.

COOPER: Wow, so sad about Harold Ramis, such talented guy and so young. Susan, thanks very much.

"The Ridiculist" is next.


COOPER: Time now for "The Ridiculist." The man who gave us the soundtrack of the early 1990s is back. A renaissance man, a South Floridian bard whose dreams as big as his hair whose lines averts hell as much as gravitas as the lines in his eyebrows. I'm speaking, of course, about the one and only Vanilla Ice. Where is he now?

That's right, Vanilla Ice, good to see he's still practicing his craft. I'm surprised he went with Mac & Cheese. Uncle Ben's is probably in the exact same aisle. It's already seared into our consciousness. Recently, the heads of the Dormacademy in North Carolina made the following video to announce that school was closed.

The song is everywhere, remember the movie "Step Brothers?"


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Derek went on to win the contest by lip syncing Ice, Ice baby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a great song.



COOPER: So that clip is just a few seconds, but the actor who was lip syncing, had to learn the entire song in preparation, which was difficult because the lyrics actually make no sense. He says he had to try to interpret them for himself so he could remember them. Here's the example he gave to Conan.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first lyrics to the song are, Yo, VIP, let's kick it, which I think is a nice way to start out a song. It's saying, you're a very important person, let's begin. And then the next lyric is all right, stop, which is strange, because we literally just started.


COOPER: I'm starting to get worried that all this talk of Ice, Ice Baby is going to get stuck in your head. If that baseline is going to be in your head all night, it may as well be from the guys who wrote it. Check out the following while my DJ rolls it. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That's a good song. Queen and David Bowie's under pressure, one song that will never be called cheesy on "The Ridiculist." That does it for us. We'll see you again one hour from now at 10 p.m. for another edition of 360. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.