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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Did Mom Murder Seven Infants?
Aired April 14, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, breaking news on a story that`s trending across the country. It`s like something out of a horror movie. Cops say they uncovered a really gruesome scene; the bodies of seven dead infants inside a Utah home, each placed inside a cardboard box. And now they`ve charged their mother with six counts of murder, claiming she strangled or suffocated each one.
But family and neighbors say they had no idea this suspect was even pregnant. What the hell was going on inside that house?
Good evening, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would have never guessed it would have ever happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just terrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over the course of ten years, police say Megan Huntsman gave birth to, then killed at least six babies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seven dead infants in the garage. Babies, police say 39-year-old Megan Huntsman gave birth to, charged today with killing at least six of them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had no idea. Absolutely no idea.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, 39-year-old Megan Huntsman is charged with six counts of murder and being held on a $6 million bond after her ex- husband said he discovered one dead infant inside a box while cleaning out the garage. Cops rushed over to the house, and then they uncovered six more dead babies, all in separate boxes, all born within a decade between 1996 and 2006.
Neighbors say they had absolutely no idea they were living next to this house of horrors, saying Megan Huntsman seemed completely normal and that she never looked pregnant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was one that would gain weight and lose weight and, you know, just one of those that would kind of go up and down a little bit. But nothing, you know, to look like she was pregnant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But in an eerie twist, Megan has three living daughters, all born in the same time frame. So why would a mother choose to keep three babies and murder the others?
What do you think? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
Now, we`ve got a fantastic Lion`s Den panel ready to debate tonight how she could have gotten away with this for so long with nobody noticing. She was continually pregnant for a whole decade.
But first, we`re delighted to have Lieutenant Britt Smith of Pleasant Grove police.
Lieutenant, thank you so much for joining us.
And now I want to start with the ex-husband. The ex-husband gets out of prison, and he goes back to this house where she no longer lives. She`s moved out a few years earlier. And what happens? What does he discover?
LT. BRITT SMITH, PLEASANT GROVE POLICE (voice-over): Well, first of all, Jane, he`s still currently married to her. So he`s not the ex- husband. He`s the current husband.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. All right.
SMITH: And he`s there, cleaning out the garage. And they`re just -- the garage is pretty full. And if you`ve seen any of the media coverage, and they`ve got shots of the front of the house, their yard and the driveway is...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a mess.
SMITH: ... full of -- yes, it`s a mess. And all that stuff was once in the garage. And they`ve pulled it out. And as they get to the point to where they can get to shelves and cabinets and that sort of thing, they start removing boxes and opening them up to what`s in the contents of them.
And the husband made the discovery of human remains in one of the boxes. And he -- he contacted us.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s give our viewers a little back story, and then I want to go back to you, Lieutenant.
Neighbors say Megan Huntsman`s husband, who`s believed to be the father, as you just heard, he`s the guy who discovered the first body, and then cops came in after that. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He seemed very upbeat. They were cleaning out the garage, and apparently going to take a lot of it to the junkyard, probably. Two hours later, I saw these police cars show up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But we did some digging, and we found out Megan`s husband has his own record, very serious charges. Thirteen years ago, he was convicted of rape, as well as sodomy. Eight years ago, he was convicted of possession of a controlled substance in a case that he reportedly had used chemicals, and he had chemicals that are used to manufacture methamphetamine.
So I`ve got to go back to you, Lieutenant. A, everybody is asking, how could he not know that his wife was pregnant seven times? Is he the father, and is he being investigated for possible charges, given that he`s her husband?
SMITH: So that`s really the million-dollar question, is how did he not know that she was pregnant? That is a key focus of the investigation at this point. And that`s still being investigated. And we can`t really talk too much about that, because it`s still an ongoing and active investigation.
The second question that you asked is, is he the father of the seven children that were found in the garage? That still is going to be -- we`re going to have to test the remains and do DNA testing and that sort of thing. That`s still ongoing. We still don`t have the answer to that either.
And then you had a third question, and I apologize. I forgot.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think I even have a better third question. Is how are we so sure that these children are hers? Given that he has a history of rape and sodomy, this man, given that the pregnancies ended around the time that he went to prison the last time, given that she has three daughters that are now grown up. The oldest is 20, 22. So that child would have been about 14 or so around the time the last pregnancy occurred. How do we know that there isn`t another story and she`s covering to protect someone?
SMITH: Well, that`s why we`re still investigating. And certainly, we have thought of that, and considered that. And we`re investigating that. But at this point, you know, obviously she`s admitted to giving birth to these children. And -- and then murdering them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So she`s admitted it? She`s confessed, is that -- is that what you`re saying?
SMITH: That`s correct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. And then the fact that there are six murder charges, but there were seven babies, the general assumption is one was stillborn, according to her?
SMITH: That`s correct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And would that be the first one?
SMITH: The time line, as far as that goes, is really kind of ambiguous.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do we know why? Lieutenant, everybody wants to know why. Why would you do this? Why not give the child away, drop them at a safe haven, put them up for adoption? Or not have future children if you didn`t want them? Use family planning. I mean, why?
SMITH: That`s a great question. And that`s a question, as you said, that everybody wants -- wants the answer to. And then the unfortunate answer to that is that, no matter what her why was, no matter what her reasoning was, it`s not going to make sense to the average normal person. It`s not going to explain why she did it. And it`s never going to make sense, and nobody is ever going to understand how a person could do that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the last question. She has three children. They were living in the home. She left a few years ago and allowed her three teenagers to continue living there. I guess they`re now around 13 and mid-teenage and then 20 to 22. How could they have not found seven babies in the garage? It`s not a mansion. It`s a pretty small house.
SMITH: That`s correct. I can tell you that the garage was used mostly for storage throughout those years, especially after the husband was -- had left and gone to prison. And so there probably wasn`t a whole lot of foot traffic through that area. And I can tell you, as someone who stood in that garage before the discovery was made, that there was really no detectible odor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, fascinating. Lieutenant, I want to thank you for being -- for talking to us and actually giving us information. A lot of times we talk to law enforcement, and we get a lot of -- circles, sentences and circles. So I thank you for being so candid with us and giving us the information you have. I very much appreciate it, sir.
We`re going to do things a little bit differently tonight. I want to start out with a caller, because this has trended on social media. It`s like No. 2, two or three all over the country in various news sources.
Let`s start with Barbara, Arkansas. You just heard the police officer. What do you think?
CALLER: I just want to know, has CPS been in this home yet?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a fascinating question. I don`t know. Is the lieutenant still on? Probably gone.
Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, you listen to law enforcement, something doesn`t make sense about this. There`s something fishy. And I hate to use a species-ist phrase, but there`s something not right about this whole story.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, that`s putting it mildly. Among other problems, ten children in ten years, and all the neighbors said she looked skinny to them? At all times? I don`t think so. Unless she had triplets, in which case you -- she had to look like a horse at least once. I don`t know. The story makes no sense.
There`s no question -- there`s no question they cannot all be her children. End of discussion. Whether they`re all his is another story. I don`t know.
And, you know -- I read another article about this case that said there was a strong odor of decomposition, which is one of the reasons the guy was led to the box that he was led to. If that`s true, then this is a relatively fresh death that was causing that odor. Because you wouldn`t smell that for eight years. There are a lot of questions we still need to uncover.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Leiberman.
JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: And the reason...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re dying to get in.
LEIBERMAN: Well, the reason why we might not have answers any time soon, Jane, is because I`m told most of these bodies were badly decomposed. So we may not have answers to the sex of the children, certainly to the DNA match. So we may not have many of these questions answered for many, many months, because of the varying stages of decomposition.
And each little baby was wrapped meticulously, I`m told, in either a towel or a shirt and hidden. These weren`t out in plain sight. These little babies were hidden. Horrible.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And remember, the husband who came back from prison and was cleaning out the garage, is a convicted rapist and sodomist (ph). Could that have something to do with it? Remember, right around the time he goes to prison, the pregnancies stop.
More on the other side. We`re just getting started.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A neighbor across the street who was too disturbed to go on camera watched through his surveillance video as police carried the lifeless infants out of the dark home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how something like this could even happen. But it did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six more small cardboard boxes were discovered by police, each with an even tinier body inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my God. And we`ve got to look at that woman`s mug shot again, because it`s -- it tells a story in itself. She`s a woman accused of having seven babies and murdering six of them. You heard the police officer say one was stillborn. Cops say Megan`s husband discovered the dead infants, all in individually-placed cardboard packages.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some family members of the residence were cleaning out the garage, came across this suspicious package. Had kind of a pungent odor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Jeff Gardere, we need a forensic psychologist tonight. Utah has a safe-haven law. Somebody has a baby, and they don`t want to keep it, they can drop the child at a fire station, a place like that, with no questions asked.
But instead of doing that, she, according to cops -- this is the initial story, although I`m not sure I buy that she had all these kids. She choked or strangled these children to death and then put their bodies in little cardboard boxes. All six of them. And then keeping them like little keepsakes in the garage. Like you`re keeping a collection of antique watches.
JEFF GARDERE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is there a psychological explanation if, in fact, she did all this?
GARDERE: If, in fact, she did all of this, we have to look at someone -- of course, seriously emotionally disturbed.
But, Jane, I agree with you. This picture is much more complicated. It`s not just about her insanity. The husband is, I believe, involved in some way. This guy is a convicted rapist. Therefore, whatever is going on involves the two of them. She might be in fear of her life. She might be in fugue states. Put all of that together, and we have a very complex tapestry here of real emotional disturbance. Not just her, but the interaction with the husband.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Areva Martin, attorney. If it turns out that this is his DNA and these are his children, should he be charged?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Well, I`m not so sure of that, Jane. And I`m not so sure that the husband is involved. Because why would he go into a garage, discover a baby and then call the police? If he`s involved, he`s calling the police on himself. He`s a convicted felon. He knows how the criminal justice system works.
And also, I want to address the point about the woman being pregnant. I heard one of the neighbors say that she did have fluctuations in her weight and her weight went up and down. It`s very possible for a woman to be pregnant and for people around her not to know. For the woman to conceal a pregnancy. Women do it all of the time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Claypool, I mean, give me a break. How on earth can -- excuse me. How on earth can somebody get somebody pregnant once a year over a decade and not know that the person is getting pregnant, getting bigger and giving birth? I mean, come on, we don`t have to get graphic here to realize a husband is going to realize that.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, ATTORNEY: Jane...
MARTIN: Jane, women are pregnant all of the time and people don`t know. People on their jobs, people in the community really don`t know they`re pregnant.
CLAYPOOL: Hey, Jane, I have a possible answer. I have an answer to your question. It might work. I don`t think that the husband -- everybody is calling him the husband. I don`t think he`s the father of many of these kids. And I will tell you.
There is a controversial law in Utah that permits a woman who is pregnant to somebody who`s not her husband -- let`s say they`re a couple, they`re not married, or pregnant with somebody else, another man she`s not married to, she has no obligation under the law in Utah to tell that man that she`s pregnant with her child. So it could be coming from somebody else, No. 1. No. 2...
MURPHY: Dude, dude, dude! She...
CLAYPOOL: Here`s a possible motive. Can I finish, please? Can I finish?
MURPHY: Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Wendy answer and then you`ll go to the possible motive. Wendy.
CLAYPOOL: Go ahead.
MURPHY: I mean, can we have a tiny dose of common sense instead of latching onto absurdities? All the pregnancies reportedly stopped when he went to prison. I mean -- come on!
Plus, this is his wife. Is he having sex with her? I think so. Would that...
CLAYPOOL: Yes, I doubt it. I doubt it. I doubt it. She had a motive. She had a financial motive -- she had a financial motive to have these kids. Here, two possible theories. One is, I would check with the federal government and the state government to find out whether she`s committed any kind of welfare fraud. Whether she`s having children, not claiming them...
MURPHY: You`ve got to keep the kids alive in order to get the money.
CLAYPOOL: ... for getting money, Food Stamps.
MURPHY: You can`t...
CLAYPOOL: The government doesn`t even know. The government doesn`t even know whether you`re dead or not. She hid them in the garage. Crazy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a second.
(CROSSTALK)
CLAYPOOL: Money is what drives people.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on.
GARDERE: He is involved in some way. He is involved in some way. I`m not saying he`s involved in any murders. I`m saying when you look at the pathology of the story, this isn`t just about a crazy woman on her own. I`m talking about a very crazy situation. And there`s some interplay involving the family, specifically the husband. Whether it`s out of fear, I leave that up to the panel.
LEIBERMAN: When the estranged husband found the first baby, we should point out, he called her first. Then he called police. That`s No. 1.
The second thing is, police are also questioning her boyfriend. She has a current boyfriend.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh.
LEIBERMAN: Right now.
CLAYPOOL: Thank you! Thank you!
LEIBERMAN: They`re also questioning him to see if he knew anything.
MURPHY: Come on.
LEIBERMAN: She`s been living with this boyfriend for...
CLAYPOOL: There you go, Wendy.
LEIBERMAN: Apparently they had it on and off. Just facts to digest.
MURPHY: Well, the guy came out of prison and he just, oops, accidentally happens upon the garage and some dead bodies?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s remember that her husband is a convicted rapist and sodomist (ph). Again, I think that that might be a huge factor in this. Did she have sex against her will? Is she covering up for someone else who had sex against their will? Somebody who was raped? I`m not making any accusations. I`m just opening up the dialogue.
And by the way, the husband is invited on our show any time. Again, he got props from some of our panelists for calling police, saying when he just got out of prison, only an innocent man would do that. So he hasn`t been charged with anything.
Now, we`ve got more on this story and the calls are lining up. But coming up a little bit later, another absolutely gut-wrenching story. An innocent little 9-year-old boy murdered, allegedly, by his abusive, drug- addicted mom.
But get this. Just six months before, he courageously recorded a 911 call, secretly, and said, "Look, my parents are screaming at me in the background. They`re threatening me."
Cops came over. They didn`t file a police report. They didn`t talk to him. They did nothing. They left. And now he`s dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could beat the life out of you. Shut up! That is not a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) rug burn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bruise, either! That`s not a bruise!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She lived there for about 15 years. And she was a good neighbor, as far as we knew. We just really loved her and her husband and family. And thought they were really good people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But their rap sheets, at least the husband`s, tell another story.
Now take a look at this. Seven babies dead. But she has three other children. One`s 13, one`s 18, one`s about 20 years old. You`ve got to wonder, OK, so the one who`s approximately 20, maybe 22, back when the sixth child, the sixth pregnancy happened or the seventh pregnancy, the last pregnancy, she would have been about 14.
You`ve got to wonder, is there more to this story than we know? Could there be a giant cover-up going on? Could the mother be trying to protect someone else?
And I just want to throw that out to Wendy Murphy. Because there`s something about this story that doesn`t add up, the number of children that she had in such a short time period.
MURPHY: Yes. And not -- I think you`re exactly right, Jane. And I think it`s also likely we`re going to hear that the last pregnancy wasn`t necessarily in `06. And I say that for a number of reasons, including the smell of decomposition material. That doesn`t last forever. It doesn`t last for eight years.
And why were her three living daughters in that home with his parents while she was living elsewhere? What was going on in that house that dead babies are in the garage, decomposition material, rotting flesh, and nobody notices all these pregnancies? That is not possible.
LEIBERMAN: Jane, Wendy -- Wendy makes a great point in that the only facts we know right now are facts from her interrogation, from the suspect`s own mouth. And there isn`t any independent confirmation of any of that yet. As I said, police are interviewing the husband, the boyfriend. They`re waiting on the DNA. They`re waiting on all that. So right now...
MURPHY: How about his parents?
LEIBERMAN: ... it`s her word.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And look at this...
MURPHY: His parents were caring for those three daughters. What are they doing?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Areva Martin, I want to see the mug shot again. And I want to zoom in on it, if we can. Because published reports say that Megan moved out several years ago and left her three daughters behind.
MARTIN: That`s right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now her husband has got a conviction for having materials to make meth. I`m wondering, could she have a drug problem of some sort? And should they test her, Areva, for drugs?
MARTIN: I think we`re going to learn a lot about her psychological and emotional state.
You know, I`m concerned, though, the way she`s being talked about tonight. Someone used the word crazy. A woman that kills her six babies and has another baby that died, she`s not crazy. She has some clear emotional problems. And let`s try to figure out what those emotional problems are. And hopefully, we can help some woman that`s out there that may be going through something similar.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look at those eyes! Look at those eyes!
MARTIN: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s something wrong with her.
MARTIN: It means she has something going on emotionally and psychologically. She needs help. She doesn`t need ridicule. And in this case, maybe she...
MURPHY: Damn straight, she need ridicule. Damn straight, she needs shame.
LEIBERMAN: It`s a serial killer, Jane.
GARDERE: She`s not -- she`s not the only one -- she`s not the only one who is emotionally ill. I`m telling you, just from the information you`ve gotten, the triangulation of information, where the neighbors are saying these were the nicest people in the world.
You`ve already dug up the information. The husband is a convicted rapist. This woman was putting on weight, losing weight. Children were left alone, her oldest three children. This is a very complex horror story that`s going on.
MURPHY: She may not be the actual killer! She may not be the killer. Jane is right. She may be covering up for someone, who, by the way, if they did kill all those babies is evil, not sick!
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: She`s covering up, there`s still a mental health issue. If she`s covering up, it still proves my point, there`s a mental health issue. Because who admits to killing six of their own babies? No one would do that unless they are deeply disturbed.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Family planning has become this sort of topic that nobody talks about anymore. And oh, well, we can`t talk about it, because it might offend some people. You know what I find offensive? The murder of little infants. OK? It`s time that women who feel they have no other options get other options.
Next, an abused little boy ends up dead after his cries for help go unanswered. Some of the torture he suffered was actually recorded during a chilling 911 call that we`re going to play for you, next. And police still did not save him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could beat the life out of you. Shut up! That is not a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) rug burn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bruise, either! That`s not a bruise! This doesn`t hurt. Don`t act like it hurts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never hated nobody like you in my life, ever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beat him with a phone and belt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The officer never listened to the 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That doesn`t hurt so don`t act like it hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They did not write a report in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One officer has been fired. One officer has been suspended.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The little boy was shoved (ph), beaten and stumped to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could beat the life out of you. Shut up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, I am sick -- sick over this story. And there is escalating outrage in this gut-wrenching case of this innocent nine-year-old little boy beaten and allegedly murdered by his own mother. Little Omaree Varela courageously tried to save his own life six months before he was stomped to death. He secretly called 911. Yes, he used his cell phone so cops could hear the horrific abuse from his mother and stepfather in the background.
But tonight this little boy is dead. His mother`s excuse, oh, she kicked him, quote, "the wrong way". Cops say little Omaree was shoved, beaten and stomped to death by his mother.
Albuquerque police have suspended these two officers, ok, who responded to this boy`s desperate 911 call six months earlier but did nothing to help him. In the troubling 911 recording, you hear two adults, allegedly Omaree`s mother and stepdad, clearly berating and verbally abusing this innocent child as he cries.
Tonight we`re learning Omaree`s desperate 911 call was just one of many warning signs of abuse in which police and Child Protective Services were called and yet nothing was done to save him. Listen. We warn you, it`s disturbing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could beat the life out of you. Shut up. It`s not even a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) rug burn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) bruise, either. That`s not a bruise. That doesn`t hurt. So don`t act like it hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re a (EXPLETIVE DELETED), everything hurts you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can it hurt you for one day and not hurt you the next day, Omaree? It doesn`t, does it? You just want attention, right?
OMAREE VARELA, KILLED BY MOTHER: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up before I really (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pop you hard, man.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You caused this on yourself, Omaree.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He threatens to pop the nine-year-old -- this guy, Steve Casaus, coward. Just released lapel camera video shows the two cops disregarded the dispatcher`s suggestion that they listen to that horrific 911 call. So instead they show up at Omaree`s home without knowing really what was going on because they hadn`t heard the call.
Then these cops allegedly failed to do all sorts of basic police work like interview the child alone, file a police report, notify Child Protective Services -- they apparently didn`t do any of that. Even more outrageous, one of the officers even compliments the parents. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You seem like good family. Decent family -- just be careful --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ok.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- on what you guys say when you say stuff like that. You know, I`m going to -- I`m going to overlook it right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my blood is boiling. Unbelievable. Straight out to our "Lions` Den debate panel". The child is dead. What should happen to these officers who responded and did nothing six months earlier, Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, when the nine-year-old risks his own life to secretly record his mom and dad in an effort to get rescued.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, can I first say that this boy is a hero and I hope kids watching or parents with kids in desperate situations can teach their children to do the same thing. What a brilliant little boy he was.
Here`s the thing, Jane. I think folks will say they should get fired and all sorts of stuff. Here`s where it really helps, when you go after cops for bad behavior like this because they did in a sense have a role to play in this child`s death. We should be able to sue them for huge amounts of money as a civil rights violation of children`s right to be protected from police when they`re in danger and they beg for help and call 911.
We can`t sue cops in the United States of America. They`re granted immunity for failure to protect people in danger by our beloved Supreme Court. We need to overturn that doctrine, allow lawsuits, not because I like suing cops. Because they`ll worry about being sued, which means they`ll save the kid.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead -- Brian.
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, Brian, go ahead.
CLAYPOOL: Yes, Jane, these police officers are mandated reporters. They are obligated under the law if they suspect -- buzz word is "suspect", any form of child abuse. They`ve got to call CPS. And here`s what they did wrong. All they had to do was ask those two parents for their driver`s license, pull it up, read it, do a criminal background check on these two folks, and then they would have seen their background and remove that child and taken him into emergency custody. And then they could have done a full investigation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen the autopsy report shows --
JON LEIBERMAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Brian -- Brian is right on that point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- that this child -- yes. I want to go through, first of all, the autopsy report. It shows Omaree died from blunt trauma with injuries to his head, chest, abdomen, back, arms, legs. And they also found old injuries consistent with prior abuse. Here`s another part of this horrific 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VARELA: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up before I really (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pop you hard, man.
You make everybody sick around you Omaree. Everybody.
You make me and your mom (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sick man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. These two have a lengthy rap sheet. Look at all of their mugshots -- between the two of them they`ve been arrested more than 19 times, Areva Martin -- prostitution, selling drugs and shoplifting between them. I don`t know what`s worse, if cops didn`t run a background check by getting their driver`s licenses or if they did run a background check, found these lengthy rap sheets and still walked away, leaving an innocent child in the hands of the monsters. You know, Areva, this is laziness, in my opinion.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: You know what`s so bad about this -- Jane.
It`s laziness, it`s negligence. Jane, what`s even worse in this case, those injuries didn`t happen on that day. Those are old injuries. So that means the school system failed this little boy. That means the Child Protective Services failed this little boy. This isn`t just about what the police didn`t do on that day.
LEIBERMAN: Yes.
JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: The school already called them in.
MARTIN: That`s like the whole system that failed to report those injuries and to put this boy in a place where he would be safe.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon Leiberman.
MARTIN: As a result of not doing that, he`s dead now. And everyone should be held accountable for that, not just the officers.
LEIBERMAN: I agree with Areva. This was a systematic breakdown. Nine referrals to children, youth and families -- two that confirmed abuse -- and yet the parents weren`t ever locked up in connection with the abuse or alleged abuse of this little boy. This wasn`t just about those two police officers. This was about a systematic breakdown.
And I don`t think it`s laziness. I don`t think it`s laziness. I have worked there in Albuquerque. I think these cops, many of them, have become immune to this, because they`re seeing it so often.
GARDERE: That`s right.
LEIBERMAN: It is such a problem there of abuse.
MURPHY: That is no excuse.
LEIBERMAN: I don`t think it`s -- I am not making an excuse.
MURPHY: Sorry.
LEIBERMAN: I am saying -- I don`t think that it is laziness.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen if they can give somebody a parking ticket, if they can pull you over for speeding, and I have to say, I`ve been pulled over many times all over that area. They can stop a parent who is abusing their own child. I`m sorry.
LEIBERMAN: I`m not making excuses for them. I am telling you --
GARDERE: I agree.
LEIBERMAN: -- as somebody who has worked there, in the streets of Albuquerque.
GARDERE: Tip of the iceberg.
LEIBERMAN: They get 20 of these calls a day. I`m not saying it`s right. I`m saying, though, that many of these cops have become immune to it and they should --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me --
CLAYPOOL: Jon, Jon -- the little boy called.
GARDERE: And these cops even though they`re guilty -- even though these cops are guilty, in my mind, it`s not just about those two cops. Again, let`s look at the bigger system, the school system, let`s look at Child Protective Services -- they all failed. And they all need to be re- trained.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. Yes, because it`s --
MURPHY: It`s not about training.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- it`s worse than that. A year earlier, the same child had tried to save his life before by telling a teacher at his elementary school that he was being beaten at the hands of his mother. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything hurts you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How could it hurt you for one day and not hurt you the next day, Omaree? It doesn`t, does it? You just want attention, right?
VARELA: Stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up before I really (EXPLETIVE DELETED) pop you hard, man.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You caused this on yourself, Omaree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never hated nobody like you in my life. You know that Omaree. I hate you more than I hate anybody in my whole life. And I`ve been on this earth 41 years. And nobody has ever made me (EXPLETIVE DELETED) feel the way you do you, Omaree, ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sorry, but it`s laziness not to listen -- in my opinion, not to listen to that 911 call. And, you know what, those officers are invited on the show any time if they would like to give an explanation for why the dispatcher suggests that they listen to the 911 call before going to the house and they don`t do that. I would love to hear your side of the story.
Lisa, Canada. You`ve been so patient -- Lisa, Canada.
LISA, CANADA (via telephone): what I would like to say, please, Jane -- hi, by the way.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.
LISA: If there was so much abuse prior to the unfortunate death of this child, then why the heck, not to be rude, wasn`t Child Protective Services called?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They were called. In fact, when the two officers showed up at the school, when this child had tried to save his own life before this incident, and he told the school he had been beaten, the police showed up. They called -- they say they called Child Protective Services, and Child Protective Services disagreed with their assessment that the child needed to be put on a hold. So, you know --
CLAYPOOL: Hey, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, go ahead, Jeff.
CLAYPOOL: Jane? It`s Brian.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian.
CLAYPOOL: We need a new law. We need a new law. It was introduced in California, Sammy`s law. All CPS interviews of children who are suspected of abuse and parents need to be audio and videotaped so we can confirm whether they investigated properly and did the right thing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. I agree. Something has got to change. This child should not be dead. This child should be alive. This child is a hero. He could have gone on to great thing to have the presence of mind to call 911 when you`re nine years old to tape your parents behind you screaming and threatening you -- that`s genius. Even this child`s genius couldn`t save him.
Up next, reality star, Tori Spelling, gets brutally and I mean brutally honest about her failing marriage. You won`t believe what she says led to her husband cheating on her. Next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TORI SPELLING, REALITY STAR: I`m so honest with everyone. I mean that`s what I love about my life. And my celebrity is that I`m an open book. And I`m happy to be that way. Bad, good, positive, the faults -- I put it all out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SPELLING: We finished Season Six, "Tori and Dean, Home Sweet Hollywood".
DEAN MCDERMOTT, REALITY STAR: When we signed on to do a reality show, we`re like, you know what we`re going to do this for real, warts and all. And you know, what people see is what they`re going to get.
I cheated on my wife.
Be honest and love the crap out of your partner.
SPELLING: I love you, babe.
MCDERMOTT: I love you too, baby.
SPELLING: I can never give him enough sex. He`s never going to be happy with just me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, Hollywood heartbreak. Actress Tori Spelling spills her family`s dirty laundry revealing her actor/hubby Dean McDermott is a cheater and she cannot satisfy him sexually and it`s all caught on tape. Watch this carefully from Lifetime`s "True Tori".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPELLING: They got it wrong. Every story you could create they told.
MCDERMOTT: That`s my worst nightmare. I cheated on my wife.
SPELLING: I`m really mad.
MCDERMOTT: I was out of control. Sex was an escape, just like drugs and alcohol.
SPELLING: I can never give him enough sex. He`s never going to be happy with just me.
MCDERMOTT: People don`t think you deserve me.
SPELING: I`m well aware this might not have a happy ending.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dean and Tori lurched from reality show to reality show -- five, possibly six so far -- and now there`s here latest docuseries, "True Tori". In this one, things get really real. In the emotional sit-down, Dean revealed he cheated on Tori, saying sex is his escape like drugs or alcohol -- interesting choice of words for somebody who checked into rehab earlier this year for personal reasons.
Tori and Dean got married in 2006. They have four young kids together, ages 1 1/2, 2, 5, 7 -- kids who all play a big part in their reality shows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPELLING: Are you going to change the baby`s diaper?
CHILD: I always --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Those poor little guys. Is this all a big publicity stunt from attention addicts or are they actually trying to save their marriage the only way they know how? Ok.
Steve Santagati, author of "the manual" --
STEVE SANTAGAT, AUTHOR, "THE MANUAL": Hey Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- what a fantastic new book. And we`re so glad to have you on. Tori says she can never give her husband enough sex. So is he a sex addict, or could he be sexually starved, as some reports claim?
SANTAGATI: You know, Jane, Dr. Drew and I have had this discussion before, believe it or not, and I disagree with him because these people say that sex is an addiction. Sex is the most natural thing a human being can do. The fact of the matter is, Tori can`t be all the women that Dean wants. You know, the black girl, the Hispanic girl, the Asian girl, the girl with the pig tails. He`s trying to satisfy all these fantasies that he should have satisfied before he got in the relationship.
Commitment is not necessarily natural. It`s a choice. And it`s a mature choice. And he`s just not willing to make that. It`s not an addiction. It`s just a copout. And quite frankly, to be complete honest, it looks a little weird that they`re doing this on television. It is publicity after all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, I agree with you there -- 100 percent. I mean Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, I mean the idea that you`ve got four young kids, and you decide to start talking about how your husband is cheating on you, and that you can`t satisfy him sexually, I mean think about the kids. Why are they doing this on television? If your marriage is in trouble, the last thing you want to do is have a reality show.
MURPHY: Well, I don`t know. I mean I don`t think the kids should be hearing what they`re doing sexually -- well or not so well. I just don`t think that`s right for kids to be hearing. And I don`t know whether the fact that they`re in the show means they`re also listening to this stuff. They`re just too young.
But I give her credit for this. This is a country where we`re so weird about sex. We don`t talk honestly and openly nearly enough about what`s good about it. We have all these secret fantasies that make people feel weird and bad. And one of the things we need to do is talk more openly.
And I totally disagree that it`s not an addiction. If you get a good feeling, a rush, some kind of jazz in your brain about food, booze, sex, whatever it is, you easily become addicted. And one of the ways to get past that is to talk openly about it. So for that, I give them both credit.
I feel bad that she blames herself. It`s not her fault that the guy wants to have it up and going all the time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, according to one report --
SANTAGATI: We don`t know that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- in "Us Weekly", there was a claim made by a 28- year-old that Dean met who told "Us Weekly" that she had a conversation with Dean, and she claims the actor told her he and Tori had a sexless marriage. I don`t know if that`s true or not and everybody involved in this is invited on our show.
GARDERE: Maybe --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.
GARDERE: I`m sorry. Maybe in his head it was a sexless marriage, because it wasn`t enough sex as far as he was concerned. Dean has been very clear. He was out of control. It was about the alcohol. It was about the drugs. It was about the sex.
And I agree with Wendy. Why is Tori blaming herself? This is the same pattern we see over and over again where the victim blames the self for the misbehavior of the husband who`s out of control.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, first of all, he said he was a sex addict, not an alcoholic or a drug addict. But what`s very interesting about this is that they were both married when they met -- so they started out as cheaters. Is this a big karma kickback? We`re going to discuss that on the other side.
And we`re asking you, in your marriage, does one partner want a lot more sex than the other and is it a process (ph)?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Steve Santagati, is it common for one person in a relationship to want a lot more sex than the other?
SANTAGATI: Of course it is. And you know, the thing is Jane, everybody expects when they`re in a relationship that the sex is going to be like it was the first month or the first couple months, and that`s just not how it happens. People all lie and pretend like, oh, we are having the greatest sex life of our -- sex of our lives.
The fact of the matter is if you are having sex as a long-term relationship more than three times a week, you`re doing pretty well.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Ok, so this is a common problem.
SANTAGATI: Sure. Of course it is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So what do couples do if one person -- it`s not always the guy, or it may not always be a male/female relationship that one person wants sex a heck of a lot more than the other?
SANTAGATI: Now Jane, the thing is, this guy Dean sure displayed a lot of these quote/unquote, "character flaws" when she first met him but she overlooked them because she wanted the relationship, she wanted the kids. She wanted that thing. And he unfortunately probably misled her or she was blindsided by it and he just didn`t grow up, you know. He should have never gotten married. People need to think this through before they tie the knot.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Like I said, he was a cheater when they met. And you may say, once a cheater, always a cheater, I hope not, but it looks like it. Thanks, Steve.
Nancy, next.
END
