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Malaysian Prime Minister Speaks Out; Vets Dying While Waiting for Care

Aired April 24, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And now this.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Breaking news here, as we are at the top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Since the moment Flight 370 vanished, Malaysia has fallen under the critical gaze, not just of the families, really of the entire world. They have been called liars. They have been called murderers by the families on board that flight.

Well, you are about to hear now directly from the prime minister of Malaysia, sitting down with CNN, defending his government's handling of this flight investigation.

But, first, searchers in the Southern Indian Ocean may be mere days away from hitting the reset button as they run out of options pretty quickly here. We talked a lot about yesterday about that torn-up, riveted piece of metal, that fragment, the mysterious object that washed ashore in Australia yesterday.

That has now been ruled out as a piece of the missing plane. As for this underwater search here, this Bluefin-21, it has now scanned 90 percent of this entire area considered most likely to hold the plane's black boxes. And, so far, nothing has been found.

The mystery here of this plane is, quite frankly, just as baffling as Malaysia's response to the disappearance, a response they are now willing to answer some questions about.

And so we go to Kuala Lumpur now live, to Richard Quest, who landed this interview with Malaysia's P.M.

And, Richard, a lot to talk about. But let me just first ask about this strange immediate reaction or inaction when they saw this plane turn around. What did he tell you about that?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This has really been the biggest issue. Everything else is stuff, who did what, when, where and all of these things in terms of the search.

But, Brooke, the really big issue is after the plane did the turn and flew back across Peninsula Malaysia, out to the Strait of Malacca, was it being tracked in real time by Malaysian radar? And if it was, why didn't they send a plane out to see what was happening?

Because they couldn't have known what it was. It is -- if you like, it's the elephant in the room. What did Malaysia do on the night? And there was a question for the prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAJIB RAZAK, MALAYSIAN PRIME MINISTER: Now the military, the primary radar, has some capability. It tracked an aircraft which did a turn back, but they were not sure, exactly sure whether it was MH370. What they were sure of was that the aircraft was not deemed to be hostile.

QUEST: No planes were sent up on the night to investigate.

NAJIB: No, because -- simply because it was deemed not to be hostile.

QUEST: Don't you find that troubling, that a civil aircraft can turn back, fly across the country, and nobody thinks to go up and have a look? Because one of two things -- I understand that the threat level and I understand that either the plane is in trouble and needs help or it's nefarious and you really want to know what somebody is going up there to do. So, as prime minister, don't you find that troubling?

NAJIB: You see, coming back to my earlier statement was that they were not sure whether it was MH370.

QUEST: Even more reason to go up and have a look.

NAJIB: They were not sure, but it behaved like a commercial airline.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Now, what we have there is really quite classic. On the night, a relatively junior radar operator, I believe, sees what's happening, works out that it's a civil aircraft, because the threat level is low of Malaysia at the moment, doesn't think to send anybody out or to at least create an alarm as a result.

Brooke, that is going to be the issue that ultimately Malaysia has to answer for what happens on the night.

BALDWIN: You said it perfectly. It really has been the elephant in the room. And then I have so many questions for you, Richard.

Here is my next one. The fact that when you asked the prime minister to get his reaction to now that we know that that plane flew hours after it vanished, what was his reaction to that?

QUEST: Oh, he effectively said he couldn't believe it.

When he was told, he describes it as bizarre, because, as he puts it, the last thing you would have expected is something like that to have happened for the aircraft. A plane supposedly flying north towards Beijing is suddenly found halfway across the world in the most remote ocean, bizarre, and he couldn't believe it is the way he put it to me.

BALDWIN: Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAJIB: To be honest, I found it hard to believe to begin with, because how could a plane that was supposed to be heading towards Beijing, you know -- they could decide that the plane ended halfway towards Antarctica? It's a bizarre scenario which none of us could have contemplated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Now, that really puts it into the full perspective. And it really does show, Brooke -- you have covered this as long as I have on this, since day one -- the unprecedented nature of what took place starts to become understandable for the decisions that were taken, where to look, when to look, what assets to deploy, who to bring in, and remember they also had to do this with 26 other countries.

BALDWIN: Here's my next question, because we went back and we checked the transcript from about a month ago when the Malaysian prime minister, after texting the families came forward, but then publicly said this plane has ended in the southern Indian Ocean. Yet to you he is stopping short of saying the plane is lost. If that is the case, where does he think this plane is?

QUEST: He is -- there is no contradiction in that.

The text was sent by the airline. The statement, ended in the Indian Ocean, he admitted to me in the full interview, which you will hear in the hours ahead, he admitted those words were chosen very carefully. And out of respect for the families, he's not prepared to go that one stage further, Brooke, and say, the plane has crashed, everyone is dead.

But he does admit, if you look at all of the evidence, then it really is obvious what has happened, but he's not going to be the one just at the moment, if you like, to call the spade the proverbial shovel.

BALDWIN: But when you look at the semantics and specifically the word lost, if the word lost were to be used, would that not trigger more money, more compensation for the families?

QUEST: It wouldn't trigger more money. It would trigger the process.

And that's why some sources close to the airline tell me that they find it frustrating that the airline has said quite clearly -- the chairman of the airline said the day after the prime minister said -- ended the flight -- the chairman of the airline said we must assume there are no survivors.

So the airline is looking very much towards a notion of, please, let's move on. Let's be able to pay compensation. Let's have this dose of reality about what has happened. The government is saying as long as they have to keep everybody on board and they have to show respect to the next of kin, they're not going to take the measure.

They're not at each other's throats over this, but there is a difference, and that difference is now starting to become tense.

BALDWIN: Richard, I don't know how long you had with him, but during this interview, walking away from it, what is your biggest takeaway?

QUEST: My biggest takeaway is that it is unprecedented, that it's only -- look, in the television studios around the world -- and I put my hand up and have been as guilty as anybody -- second-guessing, Monday-morning quarterbacking.

But when I basically put a fact -- and it is this, Brooke, no plane, no evidence, no idea of where it is, scant satellite data, nefarious or mechanical, never happened before, 26 countries, most remote part of the world, and nobody knows what happened, once you put those facts on the table, suddenly the picture of who did what, where, when and why becomes much more, if not exactly excusable, at least explicable.

BALDWIN: A phenomenal interview. I look forward to seeing the whole thing in its entirety through the evening here on CNN.

Richard Quest live with us from Kuala Lumpur, thank you so much.

And let's talk to CNN aviation analyst Jeff Wise, because, Jeff, you just heard my back and forth with Richard. What's your reaction?

JEFF WISE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: It really is extraordinary. We are finally hearing from the horse's mouth, as it were, the prime minister's reaction to this extraordinary turn of events. I think Richard is absolutely right.

This is unquestionably an historic, unprecedented event. And we are still scratching our heads. Really, I think the person who is in a position to understand this event better than anyone is the prime minister of Malaysia at this point, because he has access to the information that so many of us around the world wish we did.

BALDWIN: And it still sounds like he is scratching his head, that the government, the P.M.

WISE: To hear him talk about how he can't believe -- or he couldn't that this plane could wind up halfway to Antarctica, I think that really sums it all. We all feel absolute bafflement.

BALDWIN: Something I didn't get to with Richard Quest, but one nugget that came out of this indeed, we know that the families have been demanding more information, and they are asking for a lot, and understandably so.

And so from this interview, we have learned that the Malaysian government will be finally releasing, should have done it around the 30-day Mary Katharine, but they will finally be releasing the preliminary report. What kind of -- Jeff Wise, what kind of information will be contained in that that will be released to the public?

WISE: Frankly, we don't know at this point until we see it. And releasing it to the public will be a huge step, because last night there was a lot of outrage about the fact that the original plan was to release it only to the ICAO, which is a part of the U.N., and not to the press, not to the family, not to the public.

And so I think we will all be very relieved and very excited to see this report. What is going to be in it? The point of a preliminary report is just to state the known facts about a case before the investigators go through the long process of determining what actually happens.

So, it tends to -- oftentimes, the United States, the NTSB, when they release these, it might just be a paragraph or two, very simply stating what happened and what is know unequivocally.

BALDWIN: That's the thing. This is precisely what it says. It is preliminary. It's a preliminary report. When you say we will be relieved, I'm not so sure that families when they read a graph or two will be relieved. They want a lot more information.

WISE: But more relieved than to not have gotten it at all, which is what we were looking at until very recently.

You know, we don't know. It could -- we don't know. It could have interesting things in it like where was the plane last observed on Malaysian military radar? We only at this point have a very fuzzy idea of what exact point it was last seen. And there's been some reporting that it did a zigzag course before it disappeared. Others say that it did a hook around the tip of Indonesia.

I would be very interested to know where the authorities think it last was spotted. But you're right. It might not be satisfying at all.

BALDWIN: I like your adjective, Jeff, fuzzy. A lot of this is very fuzzy.

WISE: Very.

BALDWIN: But finally -- this interview is huge with CNN and next week could be huge with this preliminary report.

Jeff Wise, many, many thanks to you.

WISE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, we will continue our special coverage here, this breaking news, missing Flight 370. We will talk to ocean explorer Fabien Cousteau. he says there needs to be a mission control for future ocean searches just like this unprecedented one. We will talk to him about what exactly he means by that.

Also ahead, could live streaming data for planes be in the near future because of what has happened with MH370? And why isn't there already a system like that in place?

Also ahead, a veterans hospital in Phoenix putting America's vets on secret waiting lists where they stay and wait without care and for some when their turn comes, it's too late; 40 veterans died while waiting for this care. Do not miss this CNN exclusive information coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Searchers here in this hunt for Flight 370 have been dealt yet another blow in this desperate search, because this torn-up metal fragment that washed ashore in Australia is not related to the missing plane, another false positive here.

Also, the U.S. Navy's underwater done is now more than 90 percent finished in this particular search zone.

So, joining me to discuss some really bigger picture needs when it comes to oceans, ocean explorer Fabien Cousteau, Mission 31 expedition leader and grandson of ocean pioneer Jacques Cousteau.

Fabien, thank you so much for joining me.

FABIEN COUSTEAU, OCEAN EXPLORER: Nice to see you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: First, let's just begin with really what you're so passionate about, because you say there should be this spearhead or this mission control when it comes to future ocean searches to coordinate assets.

But when it comes this missing plane, isn't Australia already doing that? What more do you think should be done?

COUSTEAU: I think this is just a perfect example and there are many of them out there of the lack of resources, first of all, and in many cases the difficulty with which those resources and those folks are coordinated, because of the vastness of the oceans, because of the lack of knowledge of the oceans.

And a mission control, maybe one in every continent, would certainly help with that network.

BALDWIN: When we talk about resources, I have talked to so many people specifically about the Bluefin-21, the AUV that has been deployed 10, 11, 12 times on this mission thus far turning up nothing.

I hear there's only eight of these in the world. They're using one. What other -- Fabien, what other types of equipment could be used either with -- in conjunction with the Bluefin or once the Bluefin is finished?

COUSTEAU: Well, the Bluefin-21 is certainly an excellent piece of kit and is being used as it should be in its role.

It would be wonderful to have a fleet of them to be able to cover a larger area in the same amount of time. But, as you pointed out, there are very few of them out there. There are other tools out there, ROVs, AUVs and of course submersibles that have their depth limits that can be used in this particular circumstance in the right order and in the right fashion, and only if we have tangible evidence of where to search.

BALDWIN: Which we don't and that's the problem, right?

COUSTEAU: Which we don't.

BALDWIN: You are not in the weeds in this. You're not leading this investigation. But let me just throw this at you, this hypothetical.

If you were, just given your knowledge, what would you be using?

COUSTEAU: Well, I certainly -- I'm not involved in this search and I sympathize with those folks who have dedicated all this time for the search because it is an extraordinarily difficult endeavor.

I don't think I would be doing too many things differently. And I'm sure they probably feel the frustration of the lack of tools and knowledge to be able to do this search. It's a very difficult endeavor. And of course the weight of all of those poor people who are waiting for an answer certainly is a burden on their shoulders.

BALDWIN: We have been, you know, reading these reports that officials are considering revisiting calculations of where this plane may be, maybe expanding the search, again back to the notion that much of this part of the world and probably oceans in general haven't been mapped. Lack of information.

What do you think of the idea of expanding the search?

COUSTEAU: I have said this for weeks, that with the lack of information, lack of tangible anchor points of information, this is best guess scenarios, which is really not a good way to proceed in terms of ocean exploration.

We have explored less than 5 percent of our oceans.

BALDWIN: That is amazing.

(CROSSTALK)

COUSTEAU: Therefore, this is really, really a shot in the dark, so to speak.

BALDWIN: Less than 5 percent.

COUSTEAU: To date.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Tell me about Mission 31. How is this paying tribute to your grandfather?

COUSTEAU: Well, because of the -- we certainly didn't time this according to the focus on oceans recently, but Mission 31 is an epic adventure, expedition that I'm leading to take six people to go and live and work underwater for over 31 days.

And we aim to connect with the general public to literally bring them along for the first time ever live on an ocean expedition, Cousteau expedition, if you will, through tangible media that everyone is used to through these little devices, these things that we carry in our pockets every day. We will be able to project through Wi-Fi underwater to the public at large in all seven continents.

BALDWIN: It's incredible. Again, it's called Mission 31. We will be checking on you when this happens. Fabien Cousteau, thank you so much.

COUSTEAU: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: Coming up, a veterans hospital in Phoenix putting America's vets on secret waiting lists where they stay without care. And for a lot of them, it becomes too late; 40 veterans died while waiting for help, for treatment. This is a CNN exclusive information that you do not want to miss. Back after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Now to what may be the most shocking example yet in CNN's ongoing investigation of American military veterans dying while they wait for military care at VA hospitals.

We have now uncovered exactly how far one this VA hospital went to hide its outrageously long wait times. Forty veterans died while waiting for care at this hospital. A doctor who has left the hospital says managers were actually keeping two waiting lists, a sham list that made the hospital look like this model of efficiency and a secret list that showed the deadly reality.

Here now is senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin -- Drew.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a plan by top management at this veterans hospital in Phoenix, Arizona to hide as many as 1,600 veterans waiting many months just to get a doctor's appointment. CNN has learned at least 40 veterans left waiting for care, many who are on that secret list are now dead. And what is worse? According to multiple sources, the management's plan included shredding the evidence to hide the fact there was a waiting list at all.

(on camera): We've heard as many as 40 veterans here in Arizona in the Phoenix area could have died waiting for care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is correct. The number is actually higher.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Dr. Sam Foote just retired after spending 24 years with the V. A. health system here in Arizona. The veteran doctor says the hospital did have a list that showed the V. A. was providing timely appointments within 14 days but that was a sham. DR. SAM FOOTE, RETIRED VA PHYSICIAN: The only record that you have ever been there requesting care was on that secret list. And they wouldn't take you off that secret list until you had an appointment time that was less than 14 days so it would give the appearance that they were improving greatly the waiting times, when in reality it had been six, nine, and in some cases 21 months.

GRIFFIN: In the case of a 71-year-old U.S. Navy veteran named Thomas Breen, the wait ended much sooner.

TEDDY BARNES-BREEN, SON OF THOMAS BREEN: He started bleeding in his urine. So I was like listen we got to get you to the doctor.

GRIFFIN: Teddy Barnes-Breen said his Brooklyn-raised father, Thomas, so proud of his military service would go nowhere but the V. A. for treatment. And on September 28th, with blood in his urine and a history of cancer, Teddy and his wife rushed him to the Phoenix VA emergency room where he was examined and send home to wait.

BREEN: All they wrote on his chart, must have primary doctor, urgent. And they sent him home.

GRIFFIN: This is a copy of Mr. Barn's V. A. medical chart, stating on the top, urgency, that he should be seen by a primary care physician or urologist within a week.

(on camera): Did anybody call? You called?

SALLY BARNES-BREEN, DAUGHTER-IN-LAW OF THOMAS BREEN: We called numerous times. I got a response, would you like to hear the response? Well, you know, we have other patients that are critical as well. It is a seven-month waiting list and you're going to have to have patience.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Sally kept calling day after day from late September through October through November and then she no longer had a reason to call. Thomas Breen died on November 30, 2013. The bleeding was from inoperable stage four bladder cancer.

SALLY BARNES-BREEN: They called me on December 6, he is dead already.

GRIFFIN (on camera): They called you and said?

SALLY BARNES-BREEN: I said what is this regarding? She says we have a primary for him. I said really, you're a little too late, sweetheart.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): Dr. Foote says Mr. Breen is a perfect example of a veteran who needed an urgent appointment with a primary care doctor, and who was instead put on a secret waiting list where he remained hidden.

(on camera): If you died waiting for your appointment, you didn't exist?

FOOTE: Correct. They could just remove you from that list and there was no record that you ever came to the V. A. and presented for care.

GRIFFIN: Pretty convenient.

FOOTE: Pretty sad.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): CNN has obtained e-mails showing top management, including the Phoenix V. A. Director Sharon Hellman knew about the actual wait times and knew about the off the books list and defended the use to her staff, which makes this statement to CNN from Hellman all the more strange. It is disheartening to hear allegations about veterans' care being compromised, the director writes, and we are open to any collaborative discussion that assists in our goal to continually improve patient care. Sam Foote says that response is stunning.

(on camera): This was all planned and it was planned by the very highest authorities here in Phoenix.

FOOTE: Correct.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

this was a plan that involved the director, the associate director, the assistant director, the chief of nursing along with the medical chief of staff. In collaboration with the chief of has.

GRIFFIN: Basically, you have medical directors cooking the books?

FOOTE: Correct.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): The Phoenix V. A's off the books waiting list has now gotten the attention of the House Veteran Affairs Committee in Washington. The chairman, Congressman Jeff Miller has been investigating delays in care at veteran hospitals across the country. In a hearing this month he later learned even the under-secretary of health for the V. A. was not being told the truth about the secret list.

REPRESENTATIVE JEFF MILLER (R), FLORIDA: Were you made aware of the unofficial list in any part of your look back?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, I was not.

GRIFFIN: Congress has now ordered all records in Phoenix, secret or not, be preserved. That would include the record of a 71-year-old Navy veteran named Thomas Breen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: Brooke, the Phoenix VA's off-the-books list is now getting attention of the House Veterans Affairs Committee in Congress, whose chairman has really demanded that the VA preserve all records out in Phoenix, secret or not.

So it becomes part of an ongoing investigation which is looking into these delayed care and deaths of U.S. veterans -- Brooke. BALDWIN: Drew Griffin, thank you for your reporting.

We should mention, late yesterday, the Phoenix VA sent CNN an additional statement acknowledging the -- quote -- "Phoenix VA health care system has had longstanding issues with veterans accessing care and have taken numerous actions to meet demand while we continue to serve more veterans and enhance our services."

CNN has continually asked the director of that hospital for an interview, but, so far, we have been refused.

Coming up, the secret life of a man believed to head the family that controls the company that owns the South Korean ferry. He is also known as the millionaire with no face. And now his private alter ego is being exposed. That's later.

Next: Russia is warning Kiev that military action is not out of the question. And now President Obama has his own warning for Moscow.

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