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Don Lemon Tonight

Search for Flight 370's Black Box Continues; Rise and Fall of Cliven Bundy; Interview with Ann Coulter

Aired April 25, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL WEIR, CNN TONIGHT HOST: I'm Bill Weir. Welcome to CNN Tonight as we wrap up our week here in the U.S.

That torpedo-shape microphone known as the Bluefin-21 wraps up its 13th mission under the Indian Ocean. It's almost finished searching that six miles circle around what may have been the last ping to come back from that black box of Flight 370 and still nothing. So now what? Where should they search next? Our experts weigh in.

Also tonight, a couple different flavors of anti-government rage. Everybody's still talking about the rise and fall of conservative rancher Cliven Bundy. You heard him here last night defending the racist Red that turned him radioactive even among his most ardent supporters. So why does this man, his African-American volunteer bodyguard stand by him? Say he's willing to take a bullet for him. I'll ask him tonight.

And Conservative flame theory (ph) Ann Coulter drops by with her take on the saga (ph) and the fallout.

Meanwhile, on another ranch, another man rails against the feds. But this one is a liberal. And in addition to raising cows, he also makes movies like "Die Hard" and the "Hunt for Red October." How Director John McTiernan went from Hollywood to prison and back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WEIR: You came out of prison a changed man.

JOHN MCTIERNAN, DIRECTOR/PRODUCER: I'm a way more angry than (inaudible). I'm much more upset.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEIR: Later, McTie's mission to clear his name and fix what he calls an evil system of justice.

But let us now begin with the mystery, 50 days old now, where in the world is Flight 370? CNN's reporters are live in the region. Miguel Marquez in Perth, Richard Quest in Kuala Lumpur. But let us start with Miguel. Good morning to you. Down under, what's the latest on the Bluefin? MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is probably done with its 13th search now which means that it's either very close or completely done a 100 percent with that most promised area where they thought they would find the missing airliner. That was the area where the second ping, the strongest ping was heard. Remember, they got four of those pings. There were two that were of great quality or good quality. There were two that were not as good. This was the best of the bunch. They had hoped to find it there.

What they're saying now is that they're going to search adjacent areas to it before they probably move this entire road show north. The question though is where that first ping was picked up over a long period of time. That's about six miles from where they are searching now, six miles north. U.S. Navy is saying that they're going to move everything up there but it's a different underwater topography or photography down there. So, it would maybe take a different tool in order to do that.

It's not clear how long that they will continue searching with the Bluefin in this initial search area. The other thing to consider is that the Ocean Shield that is launching the Bluefin has to eventually come in for refueling the Cesar Chavez. The U.S. Navy ship is not able to refuel it at sea. Bill.

WEIR: OK. Miguel, I appreciate that. Let's go to Richard Quest. I wonder if people are still talking about your interview with the Malaysian prime minister. How are the families responding to what he had to say?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you might imagine, the families are not exactly pleased by what they've heard. They really form into several groups. On the one hand, you have those members of the families who still believed that the plane could be somewhere, that the plane landed safe, for example in Diego Garcia, or that it's in Kandahar, or that it's being held hostage by some country or another. And then you have those who are just annoyed that the government or the airline hasn't provided more information so that they could understand what has happened.

And finally, there are those members of the family who basically have recognized what happened, taking a sort of dignified silence and now want the plane to be declared lost so that they can move on to their next part of the process of compensation. All of them in some shape or form not terribly happy with the Malaysian government.

WEIR: Well, President Obama actually arrives in Malaysia on Saturday evening. He addressed of course the ferry tragedy on the South Korean visit. I'm sure that this will come up when he's there. Did the Prime Minister have anything to say about the Malaysian-American relationship?

QUEST: Yes. The Prime Minister did most certainly have something to say about the relationship. He sees the way Malaysia is positioned between say for example the United States and China. The U.S. of course has been a traditional ally, but the friendship hasn't been that great. Now, of course, when the president arrives, the first sitting president in some 48 years, he is very keen, the Prime Minister, to establish a relationship that puts Malaysia, if you like, the heart of China and the United States. He doesn't want to play the math against each other, but at the same time, he also doesn't want to annoy one to the exclusion of the other.

WEIR: OK. Richard Quest, Miguel Marquez, appreciate your reporting gentlemen. Let's turn now to our experts David Soucie, Former FAA Safety Inspector, author of "Why Planes Crash," and P.H. Nargeolet, director of Underwater Research for Premier Exhibitions, been down to the Titanic more than any other person alive, also lead one of the expeditions down to look for Air France Flight 447. Gentlemen, good to see you once again.

So, I guess on day 50, might be a good time to reset here. We just heard Richard Quest run down a lot of the family's theories, everything from the plane is in Kandahar to -- maybe it was shut down to fire in the cockpit. Where do you stand, P.H., what is your prevailing theory on what happened to this flight?

PAUL-HENRY NARGEOLET, DIRECTOR OF UNDERWATER RESEARCH, PREMIER EXHIBITION, INC.: First, I want to say that Richard did a very good job yesterday. You know, it was very interesting ...

WEIR: With the Prime Minister. It was a great interview.

NARGEOLET: Absolutely.

WEIR: Yes.

NARGEOLET: It's a great interview. And plus, I noticed some informations especially by the military radar which for me is there is some information when he say -- the Prime Minister was saying, "the radar saw this plane turning but we were not sure it was this one." You know, that theory is trench for me because it was an unidentified plane coming to -- back to Malaysia ...

WEIR: Right.

NARGEOLET: ... and they didn't send anything.

WEIR: They didn't scramble any jets he said because they didn't think it was hostile but how do they know?

NARGEOLET: Yeah.

WEIR: Does that mean you think maybe a missile went up there erroneously and it's a cover up?

NARGEOLET: He even didn't know because, you know, they didn't send an aircraft but they sent something different.

WEIR: From a ship or something?

NARGEOLET: From a ship, from the land, from -- you'll never know. You know, and they are trying because he was not clear yesterday. You see, sometime, he was saying something of couple of reason (ph) opposite to what he was saying a month ago.

WEIR: Right.

NARGEOLET: And so -- and for me, there is something.

WEIR: Yeah.

NARGEOLET: I don't want to talk about a conspiration or something like that.

WEIR: Sure.

NARGEOLET: But just there is some strange information.

WEIR: How about you David Soucie. I know you think they've been looking in the right spot. How do you think that plane got there?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, you know, you do have to look at the combination of all the things that we know. What we do know, what I've been focused on and been talking about is this lithium batteries in the aircraft and the fact that they changed the first extinguisher systems in the airplane so that there would be Halon rather than the previously used fire extinguisher systems. So, that's going to affect a fire from Lithium batteries in a different way in such the gases would escape from them.

So, that's my theory at this point because I'm thinking that at some point, the crew and the passengers were incapacitated. There was never cellphone discussions, there is nobody trying to reach someone through a cellphone. There were no communications from the aircraft. Something took out either the crew and passengers, and/or the radios as well. So, I'm looking more along in the lines of the on-flight fire or decompression, something along those lines at this point.

WEIR: And how do that explain all those turns, all those deliberate moves around Indonesia?

SOUCIE: Well, it doesn't -- if the communication systems were out prior to the incapacitation of the crew, then that would explain that, because the crew has a lot longer period of oxygen than does the cabin and the passengers as well. The passengers -- oxygen only last about 15 minutes whereas the crew has 30 to 45 minutes even up to an hour and a half depending on whether they're on emergency or not.

WEIR: Right.

SOUCIE: So they could have been cognizant and then trying to avoid other traffic.

WEIR: P.H., let's go back to the search now. If they do cover this one six-mile circle, now maybe moved to the area of the next closest ping and it's just going to expand exponentially going forward? Do they need different assets?

NARGEOLET: Yes. They could have a different asset. I hope that HMS Echo finished them up and to have a good map because that is something very important with a good map. Because with a good map, you can decide which equipment you are going to use. You know, because this is pretty flat or pretty good area. I would say the towing sonar is -- could be better than Bluefin even if the Bluefin has a sonar too, but it will be probably more efficient as it can do faster in big area, you know. But ...

WEIR: There are (inaudible) between the towed versions like you have live data, but still, you got to turn them and it's not as ...

NARGEOLET: The turn is very -- that's problem in deep water ...

WEIR: Yeah.

NARGEOLET: ... when you have one to make a turn, it could take, in good weather, six to seven hours to do 180 degree turn.

WEIR: Interesting. Yeah.

NARGEOLET: With the Bluefin, it takes five minutes ...

WEIR: Right.

NARGEOLET: ... to turn around and its coming back.

WEIR: But it stays down 24 hours at a time and it's always ...

NARGEOLET: Exactly. And ...

WEIR: ... it's all at balance (inaudible).

NARGEOLET: ... (inaudible) if you have a long track, I will say the towing sonar is good.

WEIR: Yeah.

NARGEOLET: If we short track, that's not good because you spend a lot of time turning and that could -- that's what happened on the Titanic. You know, first time we we're using for the discovery, we're using a side-scan sonar and it turned out -- it was unbelievable. A lot of time, you know, because at this time, the AUV, like the Bluefin didn't exist ...

WEIR: Right.

NARGEOLET: ... we have no choice. It was the only ...

WEIR: Like the old (inaudible).

NARGEOLET: ... (inaudible).

WEIR: Hey David, about -- it's interesting the families now, you know, they've been so frustrated with the Malaysian authorities now. These seven weeks that -- a one 370 family member told CNN, they're going to start asking questions at a Boeing shareholder meeting next week. Will they get any sort of satisfaction there? What could they possibly glean? SOUCIE: Absolutely not. I've been to the Boeing shareholder meetings before. They're all about business. They've been in business a long, long time. They're not going to tolerate that at all. There's not going to be any questions there that weren't previously planned to be discussed at the shareholder meetings. The only chance they have is if they can get on to the ballot of that meeting to say this is a subject we're going to discuss and here are the specific points that we're going to talk about. They will not vary from their plan at all.

WEIR: What happens if a piece of wreckage finally is found, maybe floating on the surface, maybe washes up on the beach, but the black boxes are never found. It's just -- isn't it an Amelia Earhart mystery of the 21st century?

SOUCIE: Actually, there's a lot of information, Bill that can be received from pieces of any kind. First of all, if we find something identified as part of the aircraft, which will be pretty simple to do that these parts are easily identified. They have zinc chromate on the inside. They have Imron paint on the outside, the colors of which we already know. We also know that most of the aircraft parts, even the ship metal parts are numbered with the 200-series or 300-series part number. So ...

WEIR: And that would tell us it's 370, but it wouldn't tell us why had crashed, right?

SOUCIE: Exactly. Exactly right. We might be able to get some clues as to what happened because you can tell whether it's a convex or concave type of explosion. You can look at the metal. The seams of the torn metal will give you a lot of information as to whether it was sudden or whether it was pushed out or pushed in. You can also see debris carbon even thought it's been floating in the ocean. You'd be able to tell if there's an explosion or a fire onboard from (inaudible) itself. The metallurgy scientist now can do unbelievable things with just any part on that aircraft.

WEIR: CSI missing plane. David Soucie, P.H. Nargeolet, thank you gentlemen. Have a great weekend.

NARGEOLET: Thank you Bill.

WEIR: And coming up next, the most famous or perhaps infamous rancher in America these days, Cliven Bundy, he went from Conservative superstar to leper with his musing son quote "the Negro." When we come back, I'll talk to the African-American veteran who says he would still take a bullet for Bundy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLIVEN BUNDY, RANCHER: I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro. They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEIR: That is Cliven Bundy. His remarks about race lost him awful lot of supporters on the Right overnight. But not this man, Jayson Bullock is Bundy's bodyguard and joins us tonight to say that rancher is no racist.

Jason, thanks for being with us. How are you?

JAYSON BULLOCK, CLIVEN BUNDY'S BODYGUARD: Thanks for having me. I'm doing all right.

WEIR: OK. Let's start at the beginning. Where are you from? I know you're a veteran. What is army?

BULLOCK: Yes sir.

WEIR: You're in the army and you came to this area outside of Vegas when you heard about this story, why?

BULLOCK: Well, I live in Vegas and I heard everything that was going on, you know, this is a fight against an oppressive government and I have the chance to come help out and take a stand and I did.

WEIR: You -- when you serve -- these beliefs that you had when you were serving in the army, you know, why is it that you believe we have an oppressive government?

BULLOCK: I took an oath to defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and there are domestic enemies in the current administration.

WEIR: In the Obama administration.

BULLOCK: Correct.

WEIR: OK. Now, when you got down there and you started meeting Mr. Bundy and his kids, his grand kids, all of the folks there, did you -- have you heard of his theories on race in the African-American community?

BULLOCK: He never spoke to me about any race-type issue or anything like that when I first met him. The point he was trying to make is would the African-American community be better off having families being productive, as that's what he meant by picking cotton, being productive, doing something, having jobs being with their families as opposed to how they are now. You see the majority of them grow up with no fathers in their homes, you know, broken families, you know, living in broken communities, living on the government handouts (ph). Is it better to be a slave under someone else or slave under an oppressive government?

WEIR: Yeah.

BULLOCK: Treating one form of slavery for another. WEIR: Sure. But, he, you know, he said -- I guess and maybe it was his choice of words. They put their young men in jail. They abort their children because they never learned how to pick cotton. He came on the show last night and said that, you know, back in the days of the south, when they had chickens and something to do, is much better than era now or where they can vote, marry whoever they want, and even become president. That -- those ideas don't, as an African-American, don't offend you in any way?

BULLOCK: Doesn't offend me at all because the point he's trying to make, as I stated earlier, the cotton-picking statement was -- it was more of a -- he meant to say or what he meant by that was being productive, you know, having a job, having something to do instead of going out and being a criminal, being -- what you generate (ph), things like that.

WEIR: So you said, you told one of my colleagues, you're willing to take a bullet for this guy.

BULLOCK: Correct.

WEIR: And you're ...

BULLOCK: I still stand by that statement.

WEIR: And you're a volunteer. You're not being paid or ...

BULLOCK: I am a volunteer here at my own volition not being paid at all.

WEIR: And would you really be willing to steal the blood of another American over a fight over, you know, where are these cows eat.

BULLOCK: This isn't about the cows. This is about a government, a federal government overstepping its balance. This is a states rights issue. We are the sovereign state of Nevada. We are the sovereign people of the United States.

WEIR: OK. Jayson Bullock, we appreciate you helping us understanding mentality. Thank you so much for your time.

And joining me now, a Conservative eager to go tooth and claw against anybody on the Left. Ann Coulter's latest book is "Never Trust a Liberal over the Age of 3-Especially a Republican."

Great to have you here.

ANN COULTER, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST: Thank you.

WEIR: Good to be with you.

COULTER: Good to be here.

WEIR: And you told me, you've been dying to talk about the story because you're on vacation I guess and what do you make of Cliven Bundy, the rise and fall? COULTER: This is what I think is going on. I mean, I was never -- I never thought this was a great cost. It's federal property. He needed to pay his grazing fees. There was a court hearing. I wrote a whole book against mobs. I don't see much difference, some difference, between what's going on at that ranch and occupy Wall Street. But, in larger sense, what I think is going on when actually Jayson was, I think, very well spoken and made the point. I'm glad we saw that first. There's a lot to be angry about and people want to punch back. I mean, they see for one thing on a pure party line vote having health insurance taken away. 33 states vote against gay marriage. The court say, we're forcing gay marriage on you. You have pot legalization all over. People are angry.

But what I think is happening is people you look to, to be leaders to direct that justified anger or instead being followers of the people. I mean, you need to say to people who are angry what's going on the government, yes, that's why we need to, from my perspective, elect Republicans and repeal Obamacare. That's why we need to get elect Republican president to appoint judges. That's why we need immigration and fighting embassy. These are issues you should be focusing on. But this is the first time I've seen this. I mean, I think, I saw the same, I think, stupid punch back with that hysteria over the filibuster on drones. I love drones. Why are we suddenly against drones? But, it was all, you know ...

WEIR: Yeah.

COULTER: ... (inaudible). It was a sense of -- we're finally punching back. And my argument is, you who have -- who are elected officials, who have radio shows, who have T.V. shows, stop following the mob. You are supposed to direct a ...

WEIR: To lead them.

COULTER: ... mob with a -- who have a legitimate grievance.

WEIR: But this is, I mean, obviously, you're never going to win over the Obama base. You're going from moderates (ph) in the middle who agree in principle with some of these things.

COULTER: And also, people like Jayson.

WEIR: Yeah. But, a lot of folks. I mean, for better or worse or unfairly or not, there is a perception that some in the Tea Party have a strain of racism through them and a guy like Cliven Bundy comes out of the woodwork or Joseph Flammer (ph) or Ted Nugent, and it reaffirms that bias. This guy was a creation of Fox News, really. I mean, I don't know that Mike Huckabee would have -- this rancher, you know, support him if he wasn't on their air every night for two weeks, right?

COULTER: Well, I was on vacation. So I'm not ...

WEIR: (Inaudible)

COULTER: ... exactly sure who was pushing it. But I know it became this big issue and I'm wondering ...

WEIR: There's Hannity and Greta and ...

COULTER: ... what's going on ...

WEIR: Yes.

COULTER: ... he didn't say it's grazing fees. And by the way, why aren't you talking about immigration. And for those of you worried about drones, if like you're concerned about personal security, I know, let's talk about airport security. There are things that I think are serious issues but we need more leaders directing what is justified anger.

WEIR: Listen, in fairness, we should play this. This was Mr. Bundy's press conference from today and a quasi apology. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUNDY: I hope that I didn't offend anybody. If I did, I ask for their forgiveness and -- but I'm not going to withdraw what I said. I think I said I meant and whether you have to consider it right or not, I don't know. But it comes in my heart. And the reason (ph) that comes from my heart is I'm concerned about all of these individuals. I believe that they should have equal rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEIR: Is this -- is Cliven going to be in the campaign ads do you think for a while? Is this going to be an albatross for the Rights?

COULTER: I can't imagine. I mean, Harry Reid complimented Obama for being white-skinned and not having a Negro dialect. Joe Biden complimented Obama for being right and clean and articulate. I mean, these are elected Democrats who said things aren't coming pretty close to just some random rancher. I think Republicans and Conservative talkers ought to learn be careful before you choose a mascot. And also, in defense of what some of the anger is about because I heard -- did hear people say this. Look, they're sending in -- they were just trying to move the cattle off the federal land for grazing. But they move in, you know, this massive military force, "Hey, could we get that down to the border?" "No, no, no, the border is wide-open. Go and cross it, we'll give you free college tuition and a driver's license."

WEIR: Was that ...

COULTER: There is legitimate anger. I think this was -- this city's random explosion is here and there where it ought to be directed to something useful and could also been something we can do something about it.

WEIR: Rand Paul has some interesting words today about the Republican Party. "We either adopt it all or die (ph), they're not big enough. I tell people they need to look like the rest of America that means tattoos, without tattoos, with earrings, without earrings, black, white, brown. You go to Republican event, it's all white people."

COULTER: This is what I mean about being more of a follower than a leader. He's also going around, you know, telling blacks that the drug laws discriminate against them. You know why we have such tough drug laws. That was the Black Caucus that pushed up because their constituents were saying, "Get these drug dealers out of our neighborhood." And now, Rand Paul was saying what's legalized drugs?

WEIR: It's amazing you should mention that because our next guest coming up, Ann Coulter is angry about that very thing. His name is John McTiernan. We're going to go to a very different ranch to meet a liberal who's upset at the federal government. He was sent to prison over a single phone call (inaudible) really steamed (ph) is what he learned when he got inside, the kind of people who are there and why. That incredible story is coming up next.

Ann Coulter, thanks for being here.

COULTER: Thank you. Good to be here.

WEIR: Good to see you. We'll be right back everybody.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEIR: If you are a movie studio executive in the 90s and wanted to make a blockbuster action flick, chances are your short list of directors included the name John McTiernan. He made Die Hard and Predator, a Hunt for an October and the Thomas Crown Affair, but then his life spiraled into a stranger than fiction legal drama that put him in prison for something few people would consider a federal crime.

He was freed just a few months ago and when I met him on his Wyoming ranch, he said he's now a changed man but not in a way you might imagine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WEIR: It takes a certain command of camera and ego to blow up someone like Bruce Willis but the Die Hard franchise made him a superstar. It takes a certain sensibility to take Arnold into the jungle to fight an alien predator and not come away with corn ball first. And it takes guts to remake a classic like the Thomas Crown Affair and fade our memory of the Steve McQueen original and John McTiernan had all of the above.

For a time, he was one of the most powerful directors in Hollywood, but after a single phone conversation he had all that power taken away by the American justice system.

He lost his career, and reputation, and eventually his freedom. He's back on his Wyoming ranch these days after almost a year in prison and the ankle bracelet is gone after weeks of house arrest.

Do you see this place differently after your year?

MCTIERNAN: Of course. WEIR: How?

MCTIERNAN: Where we got it back out in the whole lot if you want an answer to that.

WEIR: It all started with a guy named Anthony Pellicano. For years, he was Hollywood's go-to private eye. A guy who seemed to know everyone's secrets from Tom Cruise to Michael Jackson and it turns out that his particular skills were tapping people's phones and making violent threats. The skills that now have him serving a 15-year sentence.

McTiernan had hired Pellicano twice, one in a divorce and once to keep an eye on a producer of "Rollerball", but the director suspected of sabotaging their project.

MCTIERNAN: Film making is filled with an awful lot of politics.

WEIR: One night in 2006, his phone rang. The voice identified himself as an FBI agent and asked how many times he had hired Pellicano. McTiernan said only once, only for the divorce and hung up. Weeks later, he was charged with lying to a federal agent and asked to testify against his former divorce lawyer.

McTiernan refused and after seven years exhausting every legal option, a judge sent him to the minimum security prison in Yankton, South Dakota.

MCTIERNAN: Well, the camp was fine. All right, they are both terrible hardships. The guys were actually very nice. Most of the stuff is depicted in movies and things uttered nonsense.

WEIR: What was the hardest part then?

MCTIERNAN: It was seeing what the prisoners (inaudible). I met 800 guys who 90 percent of them weren't -- clearly weren't criminals and there were 80 percent black and brown. They weren't criminals at all. Most of the people in for drugs are in for what's called ghost dope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ghost dope.

MCTIERNAN: Ghost dope. That's the dope that nobody can see because it never existed. They find somebody with one joint. They get him scared to death and they had him start naming everybody he knows. Fighting a federal charge successfully cost $3 or $4 million. None of this people have anything like that. They have no way to do it.

So it's just they make the deal whatever the deal is and they'll wind up eight, nine years in prison or they can insist on a trial and they'll get 25 or 30 and the thing is that it's not an accident. It's deliberate political intention.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because prosecutors need stats?

MCTIERNAN: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? What's the motivation?

MCTIERNAN: They are just this part of the machine. It's a giant deregistration machine. It is Jim Crow who spread the fall of 50 states and now they passed the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and in 1974 they announce the war on drugs. And that they hadn't had drugs that would have had a war on shipments and soul food, they wanted a way to bring the power of the government against black and brown people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And had these ideas occurred to you before politically in any way?

MCTIERNAN: No. No. No, no. No. No. I thought it before this happen. I thought it was a Republican. Now, I'm sort of like the former smoker but, you know, I'm a former moderate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you came out of -- you came out of prison a changed man.

MCTIERNAN: I'm way more angry than I ever was when I was 15 and 19. I'm much more upset.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEIR: And John McTiernan joins me here in studio along with his attorney Oliver Diaz. Gentlemen good to have you here, good to see you again.

MCTIERNAN: You too.

WEIR: You didn't want to talk about your case out on the ranch. I wonder why?

MCTIERNAN: Where I shouldn't for one thing, legal reasons for action. It'll give them admonition to go over me again if they want.

WEIR: And do you fear that there's more prosecution coming as you speak out about this?

OLIVER DIAZ, ATTORNEY: Well, we actually have appeal still pending at this point and we want to make sure that we don't do anything to prejudice the deals.

WEIR: I understand.

MCTIERNAN: And there is a second reason.

WEIR: OK.

MCTIERNAN: I maybe able to convince somebody but some of the things I've seen, if -- and that would be abuse. That might be of help to somebody.

WEIR: Right.

MCTIERNAN: I'm not going to be able to help my own case by creating it here. WEIR: But it's an incredible story and I do want to dig into it. When we come back, we're going to get into the details of how McTiernan is trying to clear his name. Who in the Hollywood spoke up on his behalf, who didn't, and whether this journey might make a good movie. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEIR: And we are back with John McTiernan and his attorney Oliver Diaz.

The director of Die Hard, Hunt for an October, the Thomas Crown Affair recently served almost a year in prison after being convicted of perjury and lying to the FBI. And it all began as the feds were chasing Hollywood private eye Anthony Pellicano, now serving 15 years for possession of explosives and for wire tapping, some of the biggest names in show business and you know Pellicano. You had hired him in a divorce?

MCTIERNAN: Wait, you just said this about wire tapping? OK. This is enormous amounts of information left out in that sentence. OK.

WEIR: Sure. But this is Pellicano which you were never have choose ...

MCTIERNAN: Do you know who he is?

WEIR: Sure.

MCTIERNAN: Who is he?

WEIR: He's a private eye.

MCTIERNAN: Yes.

WEIR: He is locked up.

MCTIERNAN: Yes. But do you know why?

WEIR: Why?

MCTIERNAN: All right, you remember Mrs. Clinton? Remember her husband used to be president? OK. They were going to removed him because he had monkeyed around with a young lady in the White House, right? Someone came up with the former girl -- boyfriend of that young lady and the quote that she was going to Washington to get her presidential and she got ...

WEIR: Monica Lewinsky.

MCTIERNAN: OK. Who do you think came up with that guy? That was Pellicano. OK.

WEIR: So he's plugged in at the highest levels?

MCTIERNAN: And have had significant things to do with the history of our country for the last eight years. So you can say this is about wire tapping but I don't know.

WEIR: But they were the feds -- the prosecutors were looking at him and the story at the time was some of the biggest names in Hollywood could fall as a result of him being hired to go after ex-wives or other producers and stuff and you knew him. And so, one night the phone rings, you're having dinner at your ranch and somebody who says they are from the FBI is that the other end?

DIAZ: Exactly. And I think that's where you come in and can't believe this incredible story. McTiernan was prosecuted because he answered the phone and he spoke to an FBI agent on the phone, not on the road, not in person and this guy didn't present credentials to him or anything with that nature.

WEIR: Right.

DIAZ: A telephone conversation at your home can be the basis of a federal prosecution.

WEIR: And the question was did you hire Pellicano more than once?

DIAZ: Yes.

WEIR: And he said no?

DIAZ: Yeah. But there's a -- one of the problem is that this transcript was never -- there was never a transcript. This was never put in into writing of other conversation.

WEIR: Yeah.

DIAZ: So, you know, it wasn't recorded. There wasn't another person there to justify about the conversation. The conversation was not recorded by the FBI. They simply say that McTiernan had made a false statement.

MCTIERNAN: And the reason I talked to him was that when Arnold Schwarzenegger started winning the politics. I started getting all these phone calls because he said they were law enforcement wanting to know and in essence did Arnold have cold and hot running the young ladies on the set. And I learned the hard way that I can't say no comment because then its immediately put in the article as and the director had no comment. Meaning, the director agreed.

WEIR: Right.

MCTIERNAN: And so I learned, I had to talk to the guy and they were, you know, they said they work from this investigating agency or that, investigators from the agency. I pursued a couple of them to find out that no they weren't, they were reporters and after that I realized it doesn't make any difference whether they are real or they are reporters. You still have to say no.

WEIR: OK.

MCTIERNAN: Arnold didn't have young ladies running in and out of the set. I never saw anything like that. So I got a call about an attorney named Dennis Waltzer (ph) and I said truthfully that I've never seen him do anything illegal and I knew nothing about it.

WEIR: And you hang up and thought that was it.

MCTIERNAN: Yes.

WEIR: A couple of weeks later, they called back and say get a lawyer, you're in trouble.

DIAZ: A couple of weeks later, the telephone rang again. This time it was the Department of Justice saying that you need to contact an attorney that you're now a target of our investigation. McTiernan hired an attorney at the time who'd took him down and met with the DOJ lawyers and actually gave a statement at that point and that served as the basis of his original guilty pleading.

WEIR: Right. That lawyer encouraged you to plead guilty. You decided that was a mistake at some point try to withdraw that plead and the feds ...

MCTIERNAN: No. I did withdraw.

WEIR: You did withdraw.

DIAZ: Actually the nine-circuit court of appeals at the Western United States actually heard it and said that he should be allowed to withdraw that appeal -- that plead based upon the irregularities in the case.

WEIR: But then the federal prosecutors doubled down. Brought a perjury charge basically saying by withdrawing the plead that you had perjured yourself, right? Is that how it works?

MCTIERNAN: Right.

DIAZ: Either to me, I mean, you can't believe this dump.

WEIR: Much more with McTiernan when we come back.

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

WEIR: And we're back with famed Director John McTiernan and his next project is a sequel to the Thomas Crown Affair, he has another project in the work. He joins us now with his lawyer.

How did people react in Hollywood as you were going through this? Did you try to call Schwarzenegger who is governor? And ...

MCTIERNAN: No, no, I absolutely wouldn't.

DIAZ: Well, this was a federal prosecution. It was not at the state level.

WEIR: Yeah.

DIAZ: So it was in federal system.

WEIR: But do people, actors you'd work with, how did the industry react to the whole of this as you're going through it?

MCTIERNAN: Some people were very supportive, other people and it was sort of shocking to realize how frightened of the government people are. So it's very much like your Typhoid Mary, like the people don't want your name on their own risk because they're afraid the side they'll get in and implicated on something. There's a great deal of that.

WEIR: I know Alec Baldwin, at least voice support online, Jeremy Irons, Samuel L. Jackson ...

MCTIERNAN: No, it's been wonderful. Yes, the remaining people who were wonderful. That is a general thing, what I saw was the terror of the federal government, just people really didn't want to know you because they were afraid of the government not because they hated you, they were scared.

WEIR: Wow and you couldn't ...

MCTIERNAN: And Americans shouldn't be scared of their government. I'm sorry, that's significant.

WEIR: You couldn't make films at this time? You are uninsurable.

MCTIERNAN: Right

WEIR: And you were spending money on legal defense and this was an eight-year saga, when you finally had to understand I'm getting in a car to go to prison. What was going through your mind?

MCTIERNAN: I don't know, I've been through a lot of it, scary or strange experiences in my life, so as OK there's no way around this. So let's go find out what it's like. So I drove to South Dakota and we did it.

WEIR: And you did it. We talked on the rancher about what you discovered there, how angry it made you to see these other people. What are you making now just come out this week the justice department is going to change those sensing rules and try to exonerate a lot of this long term sentences on these drug offenders. Do you think that's a step in the right direction?

MCTIERNAN: To see anybody say anything about giving them their boats back. That's what it's about it's a deregistration machine, the whole giant of out this is about making sure that a certain percentage of poor people can't vote. And that's what's about. So the more noise you're going to hear about this being the prison country, the more they will, "OK, well, we won't send them first.

We'll reduce the sentences, we'll reduce the sentences but you'll never hear anybody say you're going to give them their vote back because that's the reason in this. This is Jim Crow for all 50 states. The war on drugs is a war on poor people. WEIR: Your wife said the feds probably don't know what they were doing when they locked up a master storyteller. Can get your name back and some vengeance back by making a movie of this?

MCTIERNAN: I don't want vengeance.

WEIR: But with this - can you turn this into your art? I know you're trying to...

MCTIERNAN: I'm sorry it's not a movie. I don't want vengeance. I would like people to know more about what's going on because if they knew it's not the America they think they live in and they would demand change.

WEIR: John McTiernan, Oliver Diaz I appreciate you coming in.

DIAZ: Thank you.

WEIR: We're following your stories as you appeal.

MCTIERNAN: Thank you.

WEIR: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WEIR: Violent crime is taking its toll on many of America's struggling inner cities and Baltimore is no exception. Last year, that city's homicide rate in a four year high, devastating families have lost loved ones.

This week, CNN Hero grew up in a funeral home surrounded by so much grief. But now, she helps her community focus on life by getting past trauma.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chicken nuggets, French fries, chili honey mustard, and a milkshake. My daddy ordered the same thing as me. That is my daddy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son's father, he was murdered. They had a bond. It was just a bond that a lot of kids don't have with their father.

ANNETTE MARCH-GRIER, CNN HERO: I love my city i have lived here all of my life. But people here are having crisis after crisis. I believe that the violence in this city and grief are directly connected.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel sad that somebody hit my dad.

MARCH-GRIER: A child's grief can be very different from adults. They can easily loss their identity and their security and that shift can be very dangerous.

There you go write your feelings. How are you feeling today? Our program provides that safe place for child to recover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, how are you doing?

MARCH-GRIER: Our volunteers can help the children explore their feelings. Why did you choose red?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was angry when my dad passed away.

MARCH-GRIER: And talk about healthy ways of coping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get that anger out.

MARCH-GRIER: We teach our children that it's OK to cry.

His father died, so he's feeling very sad.

Grief is truly a public health problem. We have got to begin to address it.

Coping is how we deal with our feelings.

We're giving families a sense of hope. We're helping to heal wounds and bring families back together again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEIR: Such a sweet faces. Each week, we honor a new CNN Hero, an ordinary person doing extraordinary work and if you want to get in on the action you can go to CNNHeroes.com to nominate someone like Annette who is making a difference.

That is all for us tonight. I hope you have fantastic weekend.

And CNN's spotlight Cameron Diaz starts right now.