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Interview with Rancher Cliven Bundy; Racist Remarks Separate from Legitimate Land Issues; MH370 Families Still Searching for Answers; Tensions in Ukraine High; Interview with Rep. Mike Quigley

Aired April 25, 2014 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: I just want to make sure we're on the same page of understanding what the law is here. The federal constitution allows the government to own land. You know that. They charge a lower fee than market rate, what private landowners own, so it's kind of like a subsidy you get for using their land. You refuse to pay it.

CLIVEN BUNDY, RANCHER: You're wrong. You're wrong.

CUOMO: How?

BUNDY: This is a sovereign state. Sovereign state of Nevada.

CUOMO: Every state is a sovereign state.

BUNDY: The federal government has nothing to do with public land here in Nevada. The United States government has nothing to do. Oh, very limited, maybe something to do with, like, Nellis Air Force Base, maybe Lake Meade recreation office buildings. Them are the two things they purchased from Nevada under the Constitution.

But Nevada is a sovereign state. The land within this state belongs to the State of Nevada, not the United States. And you've got to understand that. The Constitution does not allow -- this is a sovereign state of Nevada.

CUOMO: Mr. Bundy, every state with a sovereign state within the United States of America.

BUNDY: This is a jurisdiction question, who has ownership of this land.

CUOMO: There is no jurisdiction question.

BUNDY: Is it the state of Nevada or the United States?

CUOMO: And I'm telling you there is no legitimate question. There is no legitimate issue there. The Bureau of Land Management was founded in 1946, and they never owned that land. It was always federal. And because of the Taylor Act in the '30s, they would have had to pay grazing fees anyway. You know all this. You've been working the land forever. You've been not paying your fees. They came after you. You could argue it was too aggressive, you could argue it was too military. They say it was in response to threats from you. But you have to look at the situation. You want to be plainspoken and honest, own up to what your situation is.

BUNDY: I am. And I'll own up to the fact that this is a sovereign state and they do not have jurisdiction. They do not have authority. They do not have policing power. And I won't back down on that. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court, however you want to do it. But that's the way it is.

CUOMO: Well, then file suit, Mr. Bundy. That's the right way to do it.

BUNDY: I don't file suit against the government. They filed suit against me.

CUOMO: That's because you're not paying your fees like every other rancher.

BUNDY: No. They want total jurisdiction and authority. They want policing power. They want to make this a policing state. That's what they've done here in Clark County the last few weeks is make this a policing state in America.

CUOMO: Well, look, there's no question it has gotten ugly there and it shouldn't have been. Nobody likes that. But, Mr. Bundy, if you're going to hold yourself out as somebody who represents fundamental freedom in America, make sure you're living by its laws.

BUNDY: OK. Let me tell you something. If I have to say I'm sorry here, it's not because what my thoughts, maybe it's because of my words. Because my thoughts have sure been loyal to our Constitution and our country, and my thoughts have sure been loyal to we the people. And I'm talking about all ethnic people in this country. I don't even like to say ethnic. I think they're equal and they should have their seat anywhere in the bus. And I would be proud to sit by them anywhere in that bus.

CUOMO: Mr. Bundy, I'm sure there are people who appreciate your apology. I'm not here to judge you. Thank you for coming on new day and clarifying some of this situation. Good luck going forward.

So much for Mr. Bundy for now. There's a lot of news this morning and for that we're going to get you to the NEWSROOM with Carol Costello. I'm sorry I ran over, Carol. Forgive me.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: No, no, no. I'd like to talk about it, Chris, because it was an incredible interview, because Mr. Bundy's comments have left -- it's united both the left and the right in disgust. And as you were talking to Mr. Bundy, you just get the sense he just doesn't understand why he's offended anyone with his comments about slavery and race and he used the word Negroes. He just doesn't seem to get it.

CUOMO: I think that's maybe a fair analysis. I don't know. I can't speak for his sophistication, I can't speak for what's in his heart. Certainly, we're not here to judge him. We're here to give voice to something because he has become symbolic of legitimate political and legal issues. And that's why he got a lot of legitimate people supporting him. But when he took this step and said things that are just on their face offensive, well, now he's got to be held to account for that, if not for himself, for all the people who are standing behind him. Why he said it? Does he understand it? The stuff about Martin Luther King, I think it just further confuses the picture. Hopefully people won't take him seriously on that level.

But ,also, Carol, it's important to note. If he's going to be held out as a symbol for the over reaching of government, there's a legitimate question about whether or not he's been following the laws that are pretty clear. For all you can say about big government reaching into people's lives, I don't know that he's the best example of that.

COSTELLO: In fairness to other ranchers in the state of Nevada, though, some of them say they have a legitimate gripe. The state of Nevada own as huge percentage of land in the state and it charges fees to use that land in part because of endangered species. Now, these ranchers say they that's not fair, they ought to be able to buy that land and they can't because of the federal government. And that's a legitimate gripe. But, you're right, it should be taken through the proper channels.

CUOMO: And you have to make sure you have the right people representing the station as well. Those are all legitimate issues. Many of the people who produce the food in this country have had a hard time with government for all that we hear about subsidies and everything else. It's tough to make it in that business right now.

But, as the federal government goes, the fees that they pay on federal land are often submarket fees in terms of what private landowners own. And there's no question they're legitimate issues. You have to make sure you have the right people being held out as representative of those issues and that you don't get distractions like this. Because then the legitimate conversation becomes second to one that is very productive, to say the least, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, I want to go back and I want to play for our viewers some of your interview with Cliven Bundy. He's the rancher who sparked so much controversy, the latest controversy surrounding these racist comments that he made about Negroes and slavery and such. But let's play a bit of your interview, Chris, and then I'm going to bring in Brian Stelter as well. Take it away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUNDY: I'll tell you who is responsible for it. This calf would be -- produce something for America. Now this calf is dead. That's what I did, produce, and that's what all the rest of the rest of the ranchers, is produce for America. They're producers. We're not out here just having fun and having a party. We're out here trying to produce food for you people.

And that's what we're doing. And I had a legitimate business here in Clark County, Nevada, following all of the Nevada state laws, and trying to produce for you people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right, that's a bit of Chris Cuomo's interview. I also want to bring in Brian Stelter of "RELIABLE SOURCES" because Clive Bundy's actions have far-reaching effects, because some conservatives have rallied to his side over this land issue, including some very popular Republicans right at the moment. So put this into larger - actually, before you do that, because I want our viewers to be totally brought up to date, I want them to listen to what Cilven Bundy said about race. Let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUNDY: I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro. They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I've often wondered were they better off as slaves picking cotton, having family lives and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy?

(END VIDEO CLP)

COSTELLO: OK, so those remarks were first reported by "The New York Times." They set off this firestorm and sparked reaction from some Republicans who had supported Mr. Bundy in the past. Among them Rand Paul who originally supported Bundy's case. He now says Bundy's comments "were offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him." That's a direct quote from Rand Paul.

But I think, Brian Stelter, that these comments will linger no matter that Republicans came out and immediately condemned what Mr. Bundy said.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN HOST, "RELIABLE SOURCES": So did some of the hosts on Fox News that had been sympathizing with Bundy, bringing him on and giving him pretty sympathetic interviews, not asking him all of the hard questions that we just heard Chris Cuomo ask. We saw those hosts also distance themselves from Bundy yesterday.

Bit I agree with you it will linger. Because this is an example of something called slavery nostalgia, whether he think this is what it is or not. There's a history in this country of those kinds of words being brought up, those sorts of ideas being brought up. It's reprehensible that you could ever hear that kind of nostalgia for that part of our country's past. But we've seen it in the past and in this case we are now seeing it and hearing it again.

COSTELLO: And, of course, Chris, the danger here is militia -- armed men have appeared on Mr. Bundy's ranch. And I believe they're still there. It makes you wonder if all of this will inflame things further.

CUOMO: I hope not, Carol. I hope that people see a very bright line distinction between what is supposedly being represented in the actions as a rancher and the fight for land and ability to prosper with this ugliness. The reason I did not repeat the words is because they're not worthy of being repeated. You hope for several things in this situation. One, that the ugliness of these words, which is obvious, is an opportunity to say that, that they're wrong -- not just to repeat his words, but that they're wrong. And that you don't paint everyone who supported him with this brush. There are good politicians; there are good people in the media. Sean Hannity has been behind Cliven Bundy. He is a friend of mine; he's a good man. He does not support any of these things. And because Bundy says them doesn't mean his supporters believe them.

And then you also hope that the legitimate issues, as you pointed out, Carol, of the ranchers, don't get brushed away because of stupid talk like this. And that's what it is. We try to stay objective. Objectively, this is stupid talk that we were hearing. You have to engage and give him a chance to apologize.

COSTELLO: Brian, last word.

STELTER: The issue of guilt by association is very troubling in any case including this one. On the other hand, if you are going to -- if you're a politician and you're going to support rancher like this, you should probably know a bit more about this person first.

CUOMO: Fair point.

COSTELLO: No, no, I agree wholeheartedly with Brian Stelter. You shouldn't jump on the bandwagon without checking things out first. You got to know who your (inaudible) are, right?

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: Last weekend, these comments were recorded last weekend. We didn't know about it for five days because there were no other reporters on site. If Fox News was going to spend days talking about this guy earlier this week, they probably should have had a reporter there as well.

CUOMO: Well, fair point. But, Carol, when you play to the extremes, which is what politics is becoming more and more on both sides, you're going to get extremist situations. And it's one of the things you that you hope gets corrected. Hopefully this is a little bit of a cautionary tale this time for members on the right.

But, again, I want to be very careful. You don't want to paint people with this brush of this guilt by association with the nature of these racist remarks. But Brian makes a fair point. They aren't just said yesterday, not just on CNN's air, but it was very important to go there and get after him about it, because you've got to squash this kind of stupidity right away.

COSTELLO: Brian Stelter, Chris Cuomo, thanks so much. When NEWSROOM comes back, we're going to talk about that missing, Flight 370. Richard Quest sits down for a one-on-one interview with the Malaysian prime minister. We'll tell you what he said next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: The search for Malaysian Airlines flight 3 70 is now wrapping up its seventh week and we're approaching a milestone for the underwater drone, that Bluefin-21. It is almost finished scanning the initial search zone. And if no plane wreckage is found in the coming hours, Australian authorities say the drone will move into the surrounding area.

(SHOUTING)

COSTELLO: In the meantime in Beijing families are demanding answers, protesting in front of the Malaysian embassy. And Malaysia's prime minister shows signs of bending, says his government will indeed release the preliminary report on the plane's disappearance. But in an exclusive interview with CNN, the prime minister also said he's not ready to abandon hope pour the plane or for those on board.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOICE OF RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Prime Minister, are you prepared to say that the plane and its passengers is lost?

NAJIB RAZAK, MALAYSIAN PRIME MINISTER: At some point in time, I would be. But right now I think I need to take into account the feelings of the next of kin. And some of them have said publicly that they're not willing to accept it until they find hard evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: CNN's Richard Quest joins us with more of his exclusive sit-down interview with Malaysia's prime minister. Good morning, Richard.

QUEST (on camera): Good morning, Carol. And I think of all the aspects of this story, besides the search, the deep grinding search trying to find the plane, none is more heartbreaking and rendering than the families and their search for answers. They continually asking questions of the government and of the airline. They get some answers; they're told some of them can't be given for investigative reasons. And, of course, there are those members of the family, Carol, that still believe the plane may have landed somewhere.

So you have a wide range of family views which is why, when I spoke to the prime minister, I needed to point out however good they think they are doing, the families think they're doing a terrible job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: The next of kin continue to ask questions and they believe they're not getting answers. They believe that various technical facts are not being given to them. Can you tonight reassure them that they are being given the information. And if they believe they're not, that you personally will make sure that they will?

RAZAK: I know this is a very, very excruciatingly painful time for them. I understand that. And we've done our best. We did many, many briefings, and we give them as much information as we could in terms of information that could be -- that were corroborated. And, as I promised, next week we will release the preliminary report that we sent to ICAO. But the most important information that they want, and sadly the one that we cannot provide, is where is the plane?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: Now, the families, of course, continue to be the key area for Malaysia, and the prime minister chooses his words extremely carefully. Whether it's refusing to say the plane is lost, whether it's saying that Malaysia will continue to search up to the limits of affordability or, indeed, as he did at the beginning of the search process, when he said that the plane had been turned by somebody deliberately, what did he mean by that?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: You've given two statements, one on the 14th or 15th, one on the 24th. They are major statements of the direction of the plane.

RAZAK: Sure.

QUEST: When you describe it as deliberate action by somebody on the plane, that word deliberate is very carefully chosen. And it doesn't tell us whether it's deliberately nefarious or deliberate because of mechanical issues. And you deliberately didn't want to say which.

RAZAK: Precisely. It was very, very carefully chosen. Of course, given the facts -- mind you, Richard, the cardinal rule that we used from day one was always follow the evidence. And the evidence that was presented to us meant that that was precisely the right word for me to use.

QUEST: Which do you believe it is? Nefarious, mechanical, are you prepared to say?

RAZAK: Not at this stage. It would be wrong for me to speculate because you need hard evidence, Richard.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: And so, Carol, the lack of hard evidence, the lack of Bluefin- 21 finding anything, what I fear we're now coming to is sort of a shift and a change in the whole process. The immediate crisis has come to an end, that immediate fast search of 30 days for pinging sounds has come to an end, the narrow search has come to an end, everybody in the days and weeks ahead will be getting ready for a much more detailed, a much harder, a much longer slog to find out what happened.

COSTELLO: Richard Quest reporting live for us this morning. Thank you. I want to talk about this more, I want to bring in Mary Schiavo, a CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general for the U.S. transportation department. She now represents airplane disaster victims and their families. Also aviation attorney Mark Dombroff, who represents airlines in litigation. Welcome to both of you.

MARK DOMBROFF, AVIATION ATTORNEY: Thank you, Carol.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Welcome. Specifically I want to talk to you both about this idea -- one of the family members suggested that they go to the Boeing shareholders meeting to get some answers. Mary, how feasible is that?

SCHIAVO: Well, actually it's been done before. There's an organization in the United States called the National Air Disaster Alliance and they have shares and have shareholders in major airlines, and Boeing and others. And they attend -- they are very civil and they attend and they ask questions at the shareholder's meeting. And so it's a perfectly legitimate way to do it. But they are shareholders. So whether they would be allowed to speak or not as family members would be at issue as you can require only shareholders at a shareholders meeting. But it's been done before and sometimes quite successfully if done properly and respectfully. Sure.

COSTELLO: Interesting. So, Mark, would Boeing have any obligation to respond to these requests from the families?

DOMBROFF: Well, Carol, shareholders meetings are not accident investigations. And the fact of the matter is, Boeing like the Federal Aviation Administration in the United States is participating in the accident investigation under the International Civil Aviation Organization rules and the Malaysian rules. The likelihood that anybody that is a participant in the investigation is going to speak publicly as opposed to the Malaysian government, which is leading the investigation, is highly unlikely.

And so no, I don't think it's appropriate. It's no more appropriate than going to the FBI, the families going to the FBI and demanding answers. Simply we're not in a position, the parties that are part of the investigation, are simply not in a position to go off on their own and start releasing information, even assuming they know anything.

COSTELLO: But, Mary, I don't equate Boeing with the FBI. If I'm a family member who has lost a loved one on board that plane, I want to know from Boeing if there are any known mechanical problems with Boeing 777s. If they're involved in the investigation, I might want to know what they found out. Can they give me any information at all? Isn't that fair?

SCHIAVO: Well, usually what they ask, when other people that I'm familiar with, the National Air Disaster Alliance has gone to shareholders meeting. Again, they are shareholders. They actually own stock in the companies to which they go to.

They usually ask proactive things. For example, in this one, there's been a lot of issues raised about the plane being impossible to be found. Would it be possible for Boeing to construct their planes such as, A, you cannot turn off the transponders or, B, that this system status messaging, ACARS, cannot be turned off in the future? Would Boeing commit to look at that? That seems like a perfectly legitimate question that could be asked by a shareholder. COSTELLO: Mark, I think that would be legitimate. Even if Boeing put out some sort of statement, it might calm the families. Why would that be harmful to Boeing in any way?

DOMBROFF: Well, I think the issue is what people want to ask of Boeing or anybody else in this regard. Certainly the impression is that, that's been left out there, if they want to go to the shareholder meetings, whether it's Boeing or any other company, and they want answers because they're not getting them from the Malaysian government. And the fact is, at the risk of repeating myself, a shareholder meeting is not an accident investigation. It's not the forum for these sorts of things to occur. So, no, I don't agree that's properly.

Certainly, as shareholder, if somebody is a shareholder, they should ask any legitimate question of a company in terms of that company's business. But in terms of accident investigations, as much as they may not like it, and as poorly a job as the Malaysian government has done, the Malaysian government is the source of the information here. And hopefully, as Richard's interview with the prime minister showed, some information is going to come forward.

I'm not optimistic that a preliminary report is going to give anybody the answers they want. And, in fact, it may raise more credibility issues in terms of the families, but it's the Malaysian government that should be the source of the information.

COSTELLO: Mary Schiavo, Mark Dombroff, thanks so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

DOMBROFF: Thank you, Carol.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, tensions shoulder and fears rise as Ukraine and Russia teeter on the brink of war. We'll talk to an American Congressman who just got back from the embattled Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Within hours, the U.S. could unleash new economic sanctions against Russia and Moscow's economy suffers more fallout from the crisis with Ukraine. As investors flee the country, Standard & Poor's slashes Russia's credit rating to one notch above a junk rating. In the meantime, Ukraine's prime minister says Moscow wants to occupy his country both militarily and politically. As Russia holds more military drills along the border, he says Moscow is trying to start World War III.

The region looks like it's inching closer to the brink of war as the Ukrainian military tries to wrestle back cities taken over by pro Russia militants. And Russia has issued stern warnings, warnings of immediate consequences.

Our next guest has returned from Ukraine as part of a congressional delegation. Congressman Mike Quigley joined the bipartisan trip as both as fact-finding mission and a show of U.S. support for Ukraine's government. He joins me now. Welcome.

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D), ILLINOIS: Welcome. Thanks for having me. Good to be home.

COSTELLO: I bet it is. Things don't seem to be settling down in Ukraine at all. How would you characterize it?

QUIGLEY: It's clearly a country on edge. At the same time, talking to the public and cultural and political leaders, it is a country that is facing an underdog's role with extraordinary optimism.

COSTELLO: Well, it sort of seems the sanctions are working since Standard & Poor's slashed Russia's credit rating, a good sign at least from our perspective in the United States.

QUIGLEY: Sure. And the ruble is at an all-time low. Their stock market is down 20 percent. This is clearly a financial war that Putin can't handle. I'm not sure if he realizes that.

COSTELLO: He doesn't seem to care.

QUIGLEY: No, he doesn't seem to care. We met with Mr. Yanukovych's former chief. He explained -- he knew Mr. Putin pretty well in the old days. He thought that -- it was interesting. In Russia, if Putin takes and keeps Crimea, his name would be written in gold on the Kremlin wall, but that if he invaded in that he had ethnic Russians killing ethnic Russians, his name wouldn't be written on that wall. There are many who don't understand how far Putin is taking this action.