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Dr. Drew
Did Six Brothers Rape Baby Sister?; DWI on the Way to Class; Too Skinny Photo Backlash; Excessive Force Charged
Aired May 14, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the story you have been tweeting us about the most. Six brothers arrested, charged with raping their baby sister. Police say it went on for a decade and the parents did nothing. Our behavior bureau is here.
Plus, teacher troubles. One driving drunk to school. Another accused of trading sex for grades.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host Samantha Schacher.
Coming up, video you cannot stop watching. It`s a teacher who is caught on tape, there it is, grabbing a kindergartener by the face, by the shirt collar, and then dragging him into the bathroom. We will talk more about that.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: And really upsetting to see how the school responded to her actions. Just saying.
PINSKY: I`m going to share something very personal about my own kindergarten experience. I don`t want to make it about me, but I had a crazy thing happen, myself.
But, first up, we`ve got some very adult subject matter. Police say six brothers, they`re now in their 20s, when they were in their young adolescence, sexually assaulted their young sister over the course of nine year, all six of them apparently, and the parents allegedly knew because the suspects have not been identified, we can`t protect the identity of the victim.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sheriff deputies say the Jackson brothers sexually abused their younger sister. The girl was 4 years old when the abuse began and it lasted until she was 14. Their parents also charged because deputies say they knew about it and did nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The person who reported it, one of the brothers, two brothers backed up the first one`s claims.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they turned themselves in last week, most of the family was emotionless.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think they knew the magnitude of what they`ve done. Because I don`t think they knew it was wrong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Oh, that`s a profound statement.
Let`s bring in our panel. Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, host of "The Tomboys" podcast on Blog Cast Radio, Vanessa Barnett, social commentator, host of hiphollywood.com, and Dave Rubin, host of "The Rubin Report" on the Young Turks Network.
Vanessa, what do you say about this? It`s a pretty outrageous situation. Any thoughts?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I`m just -- ah, it just makes me so angry because not only did this happen to this young girl for almost a decade, but the parents knew, the parents knew and those parents were supposed to be there to protect her.
PINSKY: Well --
BARNETT: And they knew. And on top of that, their charges are less serious than the boys and they got out on a $15,000 bail. It`s just -- it`s insane.
SCHACHER: Vanessa, I`m with you 100 percent. How horrifying that this young girl had to endure ten years of abuse from six different abusers who are her brothers, at that, and, yes, I think they`re going to get theirs in jail which they should. But you`re right, the parents isolated these brothers, all of the siblings. They home schooled them.
Where do you think that they learn this behavior? Not only did they condone it, I`m sure they learned a lot from these parents, too. They should not be out on bail.
PINSKY: Leeann, I`m sure you have no sympathy. Let me make an attempt here, which is that usually these parents that ignore sexual abuse in the home, themselves, at least one of them, had been sexually abused in childhood, themselves, and the pain of realizing the same thing is happening to their kids causes them to go into a denial.
It`s not an excuse, it`s an explanation. But go ahead, Leeann, have at me.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, to me the boys obviously have to be held accountable. They knew it was wrong. I mean, the one boy finally went to his pastor and said, we`ve been doing something bad.
Even though it was nine years later, he knew in his heart it was wrong. But the parents have to take a lot of blame because they isolated these children. They home schooled them. They had a locked gate around their community.
Neighbors were saying we never saw them. We never talked to them. Basically these boys were locked inside the home. So, the parents -- they should not be let out on bail. They should be put in prison just like those boys.
PINSKY: They probably will be. Dave, your comment?
DAVE RUBIN, THE RUBIN REPORT: Yes, I mean, look, this is obviously disgusting at every level we can possibly fathom. That being said, this is about the parents. You know, I do have the slightest, I don`t know, 2 percent sympathy for these kids because for the boys, because as horrible as this is, yes, either maybe the parent had been molested and they were home schooled, all of this stuff, right?
But the parents let this happen, willfully let this happen.
SCHACHER: Exactly.
RUBIN: The lock and key needs to be thrown out with them. And then you deal with the sons had to know they had gotten to the point of age where they had to know what they were doing is wrong.
PINSKY: Well --
RUBIN: You deal with them a different light I think than the parents.
PINSKY: They all lived in this incubator of molestation. Like a little isolated universe where it`s possible the boys didn`t really appreciate.
Now, what I want to bring in on the phone, Dan Horn. He`s an elder at the Hope Baptist Church. He knows the family.
And, Dan, you played a very, very role in this story. Tell us about it.
DAN HORN, CHURCH`S ELDER (via telephone): Well, I was the pastor who ended up going down with Eric when he turned himself in. I guess when Eric heard the gospel preached about two years ago, he recognized just how sinful he was and went to his parents and asked if he could talk to somebody, get help for the family. And I guess after about nine months, he got permission and came and talked to me. I talked to him about how he need to walk in the light, so we ended up going down to the sheriffs.
SCHACHER: Oh, gosh.
PINSKY: Did he -- I mean, did he understand the profundity of what was going on in his own family?
HORN: I don`t think he -- he understood just how pervasive it was throughout the family and it really needed to be stopped. That it was something that had been going on if a long time and need to be stopped.
SCHACHER: Yes, what these boys did is monstrous. Two questions, are they monsters? And number two, what are the parents like? Have you met them? Do they attend the church services? Do they hide behind the religion? Hypocrisy.
HORN: They never attended our church, but they have attended church for many years. I mean, some of the reports about how isolated they were, I`m not sure they were as isolated as portrayed. I know that they were out in the community some. It`s probably just who the people are in the community.
PINSKY: Did they, in fact, know what was going on? The parents?
HORN: The first time that I knew of that they knew was probably about five years after the first incident.
SCHACHER: Come on.
PINSKY: The first instance, as I understand, is when the girl was 4 years of age.
Elder horn, please stay with us. We`re going to keep going. Take a little break. We`re going to bring a behavior bureau in to talk about how parents could possibly allow this thing to go on. It`s hard to imagine, but I`ve seen it before.
We`ll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six brothers, the Jackson brothers charged with raping a girl, alleged abuse starting when she was 4 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputies started to question the family when one of the brothers came forward after confessing to his pastor.
PASTOR: He told me there were things going on at home that he couldn`t talk about, but he could talk to me about at some point in time. About nine months later, he came to me and said he had gotten permission from his father. He wanted the things in the family to be healed because the family had problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam.
We were talking, the problems are that the six brothers were allegedly sexual abusing the youngest sister. All these brothers raped this sister. Six of them.
Police say it went on for years but the parents knew but did nothing. Now, listen, because the suspects have been identified, we cannot protect the victim of the identity -- the identity of the victim, rather.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau. I`ve got Evy Poumpouras, security expert and former special agent of the Secret Service, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, and Erica America, Z100 Radio personality and psychotherapist.
I still have elder Dan Horn, the pastor who urged one of the brothers to come forward.
Dr. Horn, Elder Horn, I have two questions for you. Do you think the parents when they allowed the one son to come forward understood what was likely to happen here?
HORN: No. I don`t think they did. I didn`t think they realized right away what we would say when we needed to bring in the civil magistrate. I thought some of the churches they attended in the past would just hide the sin and not what we believe the Bible says to do, so we didn`t do that at all.
PINSKY: And if he had -- if the brother had to confess to you and not been willing to two forward to the police, what would you have done?
HORN: Well, I had actually -- because the family -- I had heard before that the family had fled. I actually called the police before I talked to the brother about it.
PINSKY: OK. All right. Evy, I want to give you a chance to talk about this story. What are your thoughts?
EVY POMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: My thoughts are essentially this is a horrific event. And dealing in situations like these with offenders taking advantage of a young child like this, it`s unfortunate it happens often. Usually what happens when you have this type of guilt that builds up, it`s actually easier to get someone like this to confess. It`s more difficult to get somebody to confess when it comes to monetary or fraud.
But when it comes to some type of rape or murder, emotional, you know you`re causing harm, physical harm to someone, you have that guilt and it builds up. Although you may keep it quiet inside, it perpetuates. Even the father told the son, go tell the pastor because they want to be forgiven religiously but don`t want to go to jail, held legally, but I want my soul to feel good. Hypocrisy.
SCHACHER: Selfish.
PINSKY: I absolutely agree.
Now, Judy, let`s tell people about what it is that allows a parent, what your theory is about a parent that would know about or be told about sexual abuse and then deny and do nothing?
JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think there`s a huge denial in the family and we see this oftentimes with families that have a rape victim inside the actual nuclear family structure. So, here, it`s a little bit more egregious than usual because you have six people who are aggressing on the same victim. Sometimes there`s only one.
But this is what leads to the development of what we call the victims the child sexual abuse accommodation symptom, which is talked about oftentimes in court about why the victims don`t come out and speak up, when they do, they get conflicting information from their parents, from other family members. It`s not totally supported and they recant that information.
PINSKY: And they feel responsible for the family stressors, when things start to fall apart in the family system, the victim sometimes gets the blame which is the worst thing of all, but sometimes feels themselves responsible.
SCHACHER: My heartbreaks for her.
Question to you, or Erica or Judy, now that this girl, all she knows is abuse from her brothers, at that. What`s going to happen now? What`s the likelihood she`ll be able to heal?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`ll give Erica that chance.
Erica, what usually happens is that the people, the victim goes out and gets revictimized unless they get help. So, this girl needs a lot of treatment. I would say -- well, it`s so hard to know, six brothers --
ERICA AMERICA, Z100: I know.
PINSKY: The shattering quality of this is almost too much to imagine. Erica, you have at it.
AMERICA: Yes, no -- I mean, I think everybody, I don`t know -- people might be like, oh, the boys definitely go to jail. But I think not only the victim -- she`s number one, 100 percent. But everybody in this family needs therapy. I see this as a family structural issue. This was a dysfunctional family, where they took it out on a target, the one girl. It`s really sad.
So, I think what happened was these parents created this, like, cocoon-like environment, home schooled --
PINSKY: Yes, sort of incubator.
AMERICA: They didn`t know otherwise.
So, I really feel like the guys, if they`re not going to be in jail for their whole lives which they`re probably not, they need a serious amount of therapy to know what are proper relationships, proper boundaries? I don`t think anybody is hopeless. I think this girl has a chance. I`m happy this case got the light of day.
PINSKY: Evy, usually the perpetrators, themselves, have been victims. That`s the cycle of abuse we see so often. What are your thoughts?
POMPOURAS: Yes, I totally agree with you on that. I have conducted a lot of interviews on offenders of sexual abuse abusing children and quite often that has been the case. They, themselves, the offenders have been abused.
And I do agree with you all, this young girl -- she needs some serious help, continual help. Not just a couple sessions but throughout her life so that she can rebuild herself and her self-confidence as well. She`s been turned inside-out.
PINSKY: Elder Horn, I want to thank you for bringing this to the light. However we conceptualize it, that is what you`ve done and hats off to you for having done so. This poor young girl lived in terror, in horror. And I just want to say thank you for that.
HORN: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: And I want to remind people that though this is an extraordinary example of just awful, awful abuse and trauma. This happens every day in our country to maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people. And if anything like this has happened to you, please get treatment. It will effect how your brain develops, how you regulate emotions, how you feel about yourself and how you function in relationships.
And you have a certain percentage, a certain probability that you, yourself, could hurt somebody else. It`s a small probability, but that`s there. If you have those feelings, get treatment.
If you`re a parent, you may be attracted, again, to people and circumstances that re-perpetrate on your own kids. So you don`t want that to happen. So get the treatment.
Next up, lots of outraged tweets on this story. We`re going to show you the video of a teacher who grabbed a kindergartner by the face. Look at this. It keeps going and going.
We`ll talk to his mom after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam.
I want to show you disturbing video which sparked a ton of outrage on Twitter. This is a kindergartner slammed against the wall grabbed by the face by a teacher.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Riverdale school kindergartner walks down the hallway to go to the bathroom. The surveillance camera shows his teacher confront him as he steps out of the bathroom. The teacher grabs Ian, and pins him up against the wall, then grabs him by the face.
It doesn`t end there. She picks him up by his shirt and his head flops back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That teacher was suspended for a mere ten days. She is still employed.
Let`s bring our panel, Leeann, Vanessa, and Dave, back with us.
Leeann, what do you say?
TWEEDEN: You know, never touch my child. First of all, teachers are supposed to be people that are helping children and to keep them secure especially in a school environment. She seemed like a nasty old lady who is probably bitter, unhappy in her life. But there`s no reason ever to grab a child, to hurt them and cause them harm.
I mean, that kid`s head flops back. All I could see is my son in him and it just drives me crazy. I want to do that to her.
PINSKY: Vanessa, you were a substitute teacher. Is there any circumstance which we can understand what she`s doing? Make sense of it?
BARNETT: Absolutely not. I`m sure she has all kinds of excuses. Oh, he wasn`t supposed to leave, oh, he`s a troublesome kid.
You don`t put your hands on a child. That`s just common sense. The school board almost just slapping her on the wrist a little bit and defending her saying, oh, she`s a good teacher. I`m so sick of it. Sick of it.
RUBIN: Yes. Well, let`s talk about the punishment because I`m sure --
SCHACHER: Right.
RUBIN: We`re clearly all agreed that hitting the kid in the head right there, it`s terrible. Absolutely terrible. We`re obviously all agreed on that.
What is this school thinking? Ten days?
SCHACHER: I know.
RUBIN: Guess what, guess what? You hit a kid, you grab a kid, you a grab a kid`s face, at that age especially, you never get to teach again.
That`s really simple. That`s nothing controversial. That`s simple stuff. You lose your privilege to teach.
SCHACHER: I agree with you tenfold, Dave. Here`s the thing. What did this kid do?
He was in the bathroom for too long? Can you imagine how she reacts when a child actually really does test her patience? I`m sure there is a numerous amount of other incidents just like this.
Ten days is an absolute joke. She has no business being around kids and she should be terminated.
TWEEDEN: What if that kid peed his pants because he couldn`t go to the bathroom? She`d have to deal with that.
PINSKY: Let me bring in the boy`s mom. We have his mom, Autumn Nelson, and her attorney, Daniel Margolis (ph).
Autumn, I imagine your reaction was even, or in a magnitude more than ours but the same when you saw that video?
AUTUMN NELSON, MOTHER OF BOY IN VIDEO (via telephone): Oh, man, it was unbelievable. When I saw the video for the first time, it just -- it brought tears to my eyes. I didn`t know what to do.
When you see your son going through something like that, it`s very frustrating. My heart goes out to him. I`ve been trying to get him to talk and I`m just working on having him talk and he is not responding to anything.
PINSKY: How does he feel when he sees this on TV? I understand it`s been on the local news.
I also understand this went on far beyond what we`re seeing here. She dragged him in the bathroom and screamed at him for 2 1/2 minutes so loud that a cook nearby complained to the administration. Is that accurate?
SCHACHER: Wow.
NELSON: There`s actually three cooks that had heard the situation going on from the other room. They said she was speaking to him in a mean-sounding voice. She was really stern.
She was saying rude remarks to him and bad remarks to him. That nobody, no parent, no adult, nobody should ever say to a child.
SCHACHER: And how did your son feel when he sees the video? How does he react when he sees it now?
NELSON: Well, he was -- we had the video on. He got right up and walked away. He didn`t want anything to do with it.
PINSKY: You know, I will share with Autumn --
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: I will tell you, when I was exactly his age, I remember I was chasing somebody or chasing a group of people into the bathroom, very similar with this kid, they were in bathroom. My kindergarten teacher picked me up off the ground and shook me so hard --
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: Lucky I didn`t get an inter-cranial bleed frankly and screamed at me for a good couple of minutes. I`ll never forget it.
Mrs. Tibbett, screw you. The worse -- screw the teacher that screwed up Autumn`s child as well because we are your worst nightmare now. We now have an outlet to talk about your egregious behavior.
So, screw you. This is not OK. I remember it to this day.
SCHACHER: How did it affect you?
PINSKY: It`s funny. I don`t know. I know that terror isn`t good for your brain. It just isn`t. It affects emotional regulation for sure.
I know it made me question authority a little bit, makes you distrustful a little bit. I also know, Autumn, that I didn`t ever tell anybody until this minute. I hadn`t thought about it, frankly, but a child does not come out and start talking about this because he or she feels kind of responsible.
So, it`s not at all unusual your child -- I can relate very strongly, strangely, like I was just there, that he doesn`t want to talk about it. Don`t force him.
NELSON: I do believe he`s a little scared at the moment and he -- when he wants to talk about it --
PINSKY: Yes, he will. I think the important thing is to reassure him that this is an anomaly, that adults are not like this. To please don`t distrust people. And that this is this woman. This woman.
Vanessa, did you want to say something?
BARNETT: I just wanted to ask autumn, if the school district doesn`t do more than this ten day, almost early vacation, because there`s only 10 days of school left, if the school doesn`t do anything more, what are your next steps?
DAN MARGOLIS, ATTORNEY: Can I say something?
PINSKY: Yes, please, counselor?
MARGOLIS: Yes. There`s enough to charge her on at least three offenses here. Assault for grabbing him, and shaking him. There could be multiple counts of assault in there. Endangering children, which is essentially (AUDIO GAP)
PINSKY: Let me interrupt you and say when you shake a kid`s head, you can actually tear the veins in their brain. Usually, it`s the littler kids that can get that. It`s called the shaken baby syndrome. That`s exactly what can happen to kids this age.
MARGOLIS: Not to mention the emotional trauma.
PINSKY: Of course. I`ve been there.
MARGOLIS: And clearly we need to discuss with the family the need for counseling, but also when she took him into the bathroom and threatened to rip him apart, that`s aggravated --
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Unbelievable.
PINSKY: Yes, Mr. Margolis, thank you for joining us.
Autumn, thank you. And our best wishes to your son.
Panel, thank you.
Next up, another teacher in trouble. This one busted for DUI on her way to school. There she is. It looks like she`s ready for class.
Be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Patricia Almond`s job is to educate students at Timberwood Middle School about theatre.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, they should monitor the teachers more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, she`s accused of driving while intoxicated on her way to class at 8:00 in the morning. Ampleye(ph) police say Almond swerved and hit a retaining wall.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s very unfortunate, especially if she`s on the way to school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just last week, another Ampleye(ph) teacher was arrested on drug charges. Investigators say heroin, meth, and other drugs were found in her apartment, along with guns and stacks of cash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: I am back with Sam. Teachers behaving badly. We were just talking about a teacher who grabbed a kindergartner and shook him, and I shared my story. And we do a lot of trying to understand social media and its consequences, but here`s a positive one, there was no documentation, when I was having my head nearly taken off my neck.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: Sometimes social media does help, and we acknowledge that.
PINSKY: Also the electronic.
SCHACHER: Surveillance.
PINSKY: Surveillance video. The fact we`re all being observed, we have mixed feelings about that. And of course, there`s a mix but fits and let associate with it, but we`re going to talk about two teachers, where in the same school district, amazingly. One was arrested for dealing heroin and meth and possession. I think was it dealing, can you guys tell me, or just possession of heroin and meth -- both, fantastic. And two days later, another one cited for driving drunk on her way to school. These are the two teachers, you`re looking at here. Back with us, Evy, Judy, and Vanessa. And Vanessa, once again, you were a teacher. What should happen to these two?
VANESSA BARNETT: Well, obviously, this lady that`s driving drunk on her way to school, at least to lose her job. Had she made it there, she`s a threat to the children. She`s a threat to anyone in the in the school. We don`t know what would have happened and thank God she was arrested on the way.
PINSKY: All right. Let me tell -- I`m gonna just munch(ph) to the panel, because I may have different opinion as you seem. Evy, go ahead.
EVY POUMPOURAS: Random drug testing. That`s it. This is unacceptable. I`ve talked to several teachers prior to coming on today. And I asked them, do you get random drug tests? No. Have you ever been drug tested prior to getting the job? No, the only thing they do is fingerprint checks, make sure you don`t have any type of severe criminal history, and you get the job. Random drug tests, you don`t have this problem.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: And by the way, let me emphasize what, Evy, is saying here. A urine toxicology screen is a medical screen for a significant disease state. That`s the only screening instrument we have. It`s like taking a blood test for anemia. So, what`s so bad about that? I agree with you, Evy. I think -- and by the way, not taking -- I wouldn`t even take Vanessa`s approach. I wouldn`t take such a punitive approach. I would say, hey, honey, you have an illness. You get it treated, just like you`ll be at cancer, and then you come back with your doctor`s letters and your follow-up. And then, we`ll get you out.
SCHACHER: Wait a second. OK. I agree with you.
PINSKY: It`s just what I`m saying.
SCHACHER: But the other story, I agree with you. Remember, the other teacher that had the DUI, but she was doing that at her own time. This is on her way to a job, who I understand but.
PINSKY: She`s very sick, very sick. If the drug screening had been there before, it would have been picked up earlier.
SCHACHER: Teacher aside, you can`t show up to your job drunk. Imagine if I showed up to Dr. Drew On Call drunk, it would be a good show.
PINSKY: It would be interesting.
SCHACHER: But you don`t do that. It`s not ethical. Being a teacher, it`s even worse.
PINSKY: Maybe what that you say, OK if you cross a certain line, you lose your job, but in the meantime we`ll help you get treatment. Vanessa, you`re losing it there. No?
BARNETT: Well, no. First of all, you can`t punish all the good teachers that are out there with random drug testing.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Why is that punishing? Why is that not like saying get your blood pressure checked? Why is that punishment?
BARNETT: I haven`t done anything wrong. I shouldn`t be treated like a criminal. I`m not Chris Brown.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: When I talk to my patients, that makes me crazy.
SCHACHER: He`s standing up.
PINSKY: If I have a patient I`m going to scream for addiction, what I`m treating him like a criminal if I do your toxicology? No. I`m doing the one test I have to screen for disease that people don`t admit they have or they don`t even know they have.
BARNETT: If it has been proving that he`s an addict.
PINSKY: No. There`s no proof.
BARNETT: Yes. I`m a teacher, if I`m a teacher I don`t signed up for that. OK?
PINSKY: Judy, help me, help me. Judy, do you agree with me or not? First of all, to you back me up on this or not?
JUDY HO, PH.D: I absolutely agree with you. And absolutely when people do have an addiction problem, they are not good self-reporters. We cannot trust their word.
PINSKY: It`s in disease.
HO: Absolutely.
PINSKY: They don`t know it, they don`t tell you. Of course, it`s the only way you can screen for it.
HO: And that`s why we need to screen for it, but also there are just no standard protocol in terms of how we get these teachers in their jobs. If you have time for an interview and you get time to look at their resume, you have time for a psychological interview. You have time for some brief measures.
PINSKY: Sorry, Sam, hang on, Judy. I`ve opened the gates now. Every discipline is now going to want to have their own screening tests.
HO: Well, they should maybe.
PINSKY: Evy, finish this up here.
POUMPOURAS: I just wanna say, do you know that we randomly drug test the bus drivers?
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: We drug test them. I was in law enforcement.
PINSKY: That`s right.
POUMPOURAS: I took random drug tests. No problem here.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right. My point is everyone, maybe I`m stating it in way that`s hyperbolic, but just to say, listen, we should matter of fact about these things. And we`re about -- and I don`t -- I really believe -- this the hard part, though. Vanessa sort of brought this out, we tend to be punitive and judgmental in our approach to screening instruments. We should look at them as a medical screen for a medical problem and not judge people. If they don`t take the advice of the professionals once these things are detected, then the axe can fall.
Next up, I`ve got a high school student, he`s failing English but ends up with an A-plus. How does that happen? Oh, wait, I see. He gets an A-plus after having sex with his teacher. There she is. We`ll talk about that one after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Second degree rape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty five year old Kaylin Thompson was warned to stay away from her 18-year-old student after they`d been seen having dinner together in January. But the creek county Sheriffs office started investigating claims last month that the two began sleeping together. Thompson is accused of sleeping with the student at least twice. Police looked through their text messages and found conversations about drugs and raids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appeared it looked like he was flunking last semester and has a 98 percent average this semester.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, the teacher trading sex for grades or maybe, Sam, he was just inspired. Maybe that`s why the grades were so much better. That`s not what has the debate raging on our Facebook @drdrewhln Facebook, there it is. Sam, what is it they`ve gotten into there?
SCHACHER: Yeah, well, for one, we have almost 1,000 comments on our Facebook page.
PINSKY: ooh, my God. Wow.
SCHACHER: And most people are in favor of the teacher. They do not think this is rape.
PINSKY: OK. Well, she`s 25. The student reportedly had sex with her beginning at age 18. She has been charged with second degree rape, but they`re saying it shouldn`t be rape?
SCHACHER: Well, yeah. And I`ll tell you why legally. So.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: No, wait, tell me -- why are our Facebook followers saying it shouldn`t be rape?
SCHACHER: Because they say he`s 18, and (inaudible) in Oklahoma, he`s under the age of consent of.
PINSKY: What if I were a doctor and this were a patient?
SCHACHER: I agree with you. Believe me, but according to Oklahoma, the reason why it is legally rape, even though their age of consent is 16, it`s because the very reason that you have to be at least 21 years of age to have sex with your teacher past or present. And because he`s 18, I know, this is crazy that this is even documented as a law, but unless you`re at least 21 years of age, it is still not consensual, even though he`s 18.
PINSKY: Let me bring the panel in. I want to bring in Evy, Judy, Vanessa. Evy, maybe help me straighten this out a little bit. I thought that somebody in a position of authority in that state, if they have sort of coercive sex, like, you know, trading, tit for tat or whatever. That that`s a problem and that could be second degree rape. Am I getting that wrong?
POUMPOURAS: No. You are correct, that in some situations, rape is considered that, because you`re on a level of authority.
PINSKY: Right.
POUMPOURAS: And that you can influence someone in that way. I do want to say that legally, legally that I believe she should be charged with rape because she understood and she was told to stay away. However, on a personal level, I do think it is rather extreme to charge her with rape given that he`s 18 years of age, perhaps that law should be changed.
PINSKY: Vanessa, I think she`s sick. She`s talking about drugs. She`s got no boundaries. She can`t contain herself, and a sex addict, whatever. Again, she`s crossed the line now, which she`s hurting somebody. You agree? By the way, before you answer. Let me read your tweet, got a little threatening here. Drew had to get out of his seat during the drunk teacher debate. Wonder what will happen when he hears my next comment. I wonder what those might be.
BARNETT: Look, I mean, I respect you, you know I love you, Dr. Drew, but I don`t think I agree. She is immoral. This relationship clearly was inappropriate. She made some very poor choices. She is not a rapist. I do not see her preying on this young boy and taking advantage of him in the way that a rapist, I guess the Facebook followers and likers think a rapist does.
PINSKY: No, no, no. Facebook is with you. Facebook is more with you.
BARNETT: Oh, great.
PINSKY: But OK, I thank you for not pummelling me. I was feeling threatened there. I was like -- I have a flashback to Miss Tibbetts in kindergarten.
SCHACHER: Here we go.
PINSKY: Judy, help me explain what it is that you and I say will be concerned about for these 18-year-old males? The data on them ain`t good when they get involved in stuff like this.
HO: Exactly. So, even though he is 18, the data still shows that somebody who has gone through an experience like this, tend to have broken attachments. They will not trust people as they go forward in their adulthood. They tend to be hypersexualized and will meet -- also even be more likely to aggress on somebody else in the same exact way.
SCHACHER: And not only that, she was rewarding him, because he was a poor student before this. As soon as he started having sex with her.
PINSKY: How dare you. Might have been inspired. Evy, finish me up. Evy, finish it up here.
POUMPOURAS: I want to bring up one point. I wonder if we would be debating it this way if it were the other way around, the student was a female and the teacher a male.
PINSKY: Yeah. You`re right, and as usual, double standard. I completely agree. Judy, my point, Vanessa, is that the double standard shouldn`t be there, because the males have bad outcomes, when they got involved with this kind of thing.
HO: And Dr. Drew, if you want to talk about the trauma that, Vanessa, caused you, I`m here after the show.
PINSKY: Thank you. I`ll talk to you after the show. I appreciate that.
BARNETT: I love Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Next up, Louis C.K. went viral talking about overweight women and a model now faces a backlash after posting a photo of herself for being too skinny. So, how skinny is too skinny? After this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam. I hate body shaming.
SCHACHER: Me too.
PINSKY: I hate when people are body shamed. Now, even professional models, not safe from this. Take a look at this photo posted by model, Erin Wasson. This picture got more than 5,000 likes on Instagram, but she`s also getting criticism from her followers who are going off on the fact that she looks too skinny. Sam, what are they saying?
SCHACHER: Yeah. Well, gosh, this photo definitely is trending, Dr. Drew. So, all over Twitter, Facebook, getting comments, for example, very pretty lady, she could use 15 pound on her. She looks atrocious and should not be paid to maintain that.
PINSKY: You get skinny shamed, right?
SCHACHER: Yeah. I do get skinny shamed. And it makes you feel really bad about yourself. You know, I`ve been skinny my whole life. Apparently, Erin Wasson, has been skinny her whole life. And she`s been made fun of -- I`ve been made fun of called a scare crow.
PINSKY: Why did it in the Instagram?
SCHACHER: That`s my question. If she.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`ve been looking for your Instagram, Sam.
SCHACHER: Well, there, --No. I`m just saying. If you feel like that you`ve been made fun of for being too skinny, why would you post a photo that doesn`t look healthy? Even if she is healthy.
PINSKY: Let`s bring back the panel. Vanessa, Erica, Dave. Let`s start with, Dave, do you agree with this, what Sam was saying?
DAVE RUBIN: Well, I don`t want to jump into the skinning shaming, either. But look, unless you`re turned on by the zombies in Walking Dead, there is nothing sexy about that picture. I mean, literally, when I saw that, my head actually kind of went back. It`s really -- it`s gross. That is not what someone`s body is.
SCHACHER: Don`t use the word gross, though.
PINSKY: Yeah. Be careful. Now, you`re shaming it. Listen, you`re shaming it. I agree with you, I don`t find that attractive. But I don`t feel like anybody should be allowed to go, oh, disgusting. She`s so unhealthy. I don`t know if she is or isn`t. I can`t tell.
RUBIN: Let me just say, if this had been a regular person on Instagram, not a model, I wouldn`t be feeling as strongly as I`m feeling, but she clearly put it out there with an idea, she knew. When you put up an Instagram and you filter it in a certain way, you can literally make your back muscles look a certain way or ribs make a certain way, and I think that what she do.
PINSKY: Erica, Erica, go ahead, Erica.
ERICA AMERICA: OK. Sorry. I feel so strongly about this because this is why I do what I do. Why I want to be a talk show host. It`s about the impressionable young girls, millions of them who are on Instagram. Now, look, if any doctor saw that picture, they would say that it looks unhealthy, but you know what, maybe she`s a model and that is just the way she is. But the fact she knew exactly what, Sam, said, that that picture looks like that, she put it on there. All these girls are there. I literally screen shot it a couple of the comments were, oh, I love my right ribs to stick out like that. Oh, I wanna look like that inside their head.
PINSKY: You`re worried -- they`re gonna -- OK.
AMERICA: There`s something on Instagram called (inaudible), and proanna (ph), and it`s -- I don`t even want to get into it. So, for girls who don`t know about it but it`s kind of glamorizing eating disorders. And there are people that predisposed to eating disorders seeing that and not healthy, and she`s also -- I`m just saying, also like glamorizing cigarettes. I saw a lot of that on her profile as well. I just don`t think that`s a good thing.
PINSKY: OK. Great point, Erica. Vanessa, what do you say?
BARNETT: I have many thoughts on this. First, I don`t think -- just like we don`t want to shame her, I don`t think we can also dictate what she puts on her Instagram. If she`s comfortable with her body, there are other shots that didn`t look as alarming as this. It`s her Instagram. We don`t have the right to dictate what she posts. And obviously, she doesn`t see herself as some role model for young women. That`s her problem. Also, I just wanna say, that I -- I used to look at this whole site -- I`m about to cry, oh my God. I can`t believe I`m about to cry on air. See, I used to look at those sites, I used to look at those sites, and I never wanted to be super scary skinny, but I`ve always wanted to be just better. And even now, I`m on a freaking cleanse right now. Just so, I can lose weight, because.
PINSKY: Erica, we have to go.
BARNETT: I understand what it means to want to be skinny.
AMERICA: I just wish I could jump through the screen right now and talk to Vanessa. I`m going to start crying, because I believe too, too. Of course, all women want to be thinner. Of course, but it`s not in this way. And you don`t Wanna go looking at that thin-spo stuff, because it`s -- the bottom line, it`s negative. And we`re all beautiful exactly how we are, just the that way we are, and of course.
PINSKY: OK. So, let`s leave it there. I think that is exactly the great point and those of us that are in media have got to remember, that the things we post and gram and talk about have consequence, have effect. And let`s stay focused on doing good, showing ourselves smoking cigarettes, showing ourselves with images that might have a significant effect on young women. I think we have to really think long and hard about that. My panel said it all, and they said it well.
Next up, I`ve got the story of police tasing a man in the eye, in the orbit, in the eyeball. It`s another viral video that you really have to see to believe. We`re going to discuss it when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam. And I`m going to show you some video here of a - - it`s a viral video -- of a traffic stop that went bad. Very bad. Everyone agrees. The guy behind the wheel got arrested for drunk driving but it is the passenger who ends up blind in one eye. Watch what happens when officers try to wake the guy up in the -- who is just sleeping in the passenger seat. Watch.
(BEGTIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriffs office. Show us your hands. I know you`re asleep. Get up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputy Sines tried to pull Kelly out, but he was restrained by his seat belt. After several attempts, Kelly partially fell out. He lost grip of Kelly`s sweatshirt and then fired his Taser. You can see Kelly fall back toward the truck. A prong struck Kelly in his right eye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground. Get on the ground. Now. Get on the ground. I`ll do it again. Get on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kelly stood there with his hands on his head and appeared confused.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seat belt around him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see. Yeah. Turn around. Just turn around. Face away from me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: The officers here are facing a federal lawsuit accused of having used excessive force. The sheriff has told us, quote, Deputy Sines was not reprimanded for these allegations. I thoroughly reviewed the video and believed he acted within policy.
SCHACHER: I think they need a new sheriff.
PINSKY: Well, I think they need a new policy. Here`s my policy.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Your policy sucks. Let`s bring back Vanessa, Erica, and Dave. Erica.
AMERICA: Yeah, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: You`re holding your hands up. Do you agree with me?
AMERICA: Yes, I mean, this immediately reminded me of that horrifying video where we watched the man die in front of his family, where the police were so obsessed with police protocol that they missed what was blind in front of their eyes, which then that the fact that the guy was dying. In this case, he had a seat belt on. So, what really scares me, is that the police -- the whole system, they`re not vetting people, who have emotional and mental issues, that they go in, just because they want -- they have rage issues and they want power. They want control. I really think that`s the case.
PINSKY: Don`t go too far with that.
AMERICA: I really think that`s the case. They`re not paying attention to what`s really going on, though.
PINSKY: That`s right, or they`re maybe not trained. But Dave, do you get my point here is that we live in such a bureaucratic world that an addict with defense for almost anything is, hey man, to follow policy. We followed policy. And I have a policy, everybody. Bureaucracy sucks, your policy sucks. So, it`s not OK. What policy defense for reprehensible behaviors?
RUBIN: You know what, you`re 100 percent hitting it right, because that`s what this is about. And it goes to another video we showed at the beginning of the show with the teacher and the kid grabbing the face. This is the same thing. That teacher was reprimanded for ten days and this guy is getting nothing. You know, there`s certain privileged jobs that you need to be better than average people. I would put law enforcement in that. I would put teachers in that. And, of course, the system protects.
AMERICA: Exactly.
RUBIN: The system protects itself. So, this sheriff and internal affairs, they protect themselves. That`s what they`re there for. But you need to be better and the system needs to be better.
PINSKY: But the system, the system, Vanessa, you have my point here is that, listen, I have huge respect for law enforcement. I really want to back them up. God knows what that sheriff was experiencing in those moments or what he`d been through.
SCHACHER: What?
PINSKY: I don`t know.
SCHACHER: He`s a bad apple spoiling the barrel. Let`s call him what he is.
PINSKY: Vanessa, I have issue, again, with the fact, you know, let`s evaluate what he did and go, it`s a policy.
BARNETT: Yeah. I don`t know what policy under the clear blue sky exists, but like he was saying, this is like a frat. They protect their own. And they want to make sure that everyone comes out looking squeaky clean. The problem here is that there`s video that shows otherwise, like there is no excuse. I have a feeling they`re going to go back and they`re gonna re- evaluate and they`re going to come up with something that they feel.
RUBIN: By the way, guys, what more evidence would you need? What more evidence on the videotape would you need?
PINSKY: I`m just saying, just think of -- Erica, you`re reacting strongly to this. But think about the other policies that are followed by bureaucracy. The NSA is following policy. The White House is following policy. The Benghazi they`re following policies, and people get hurt by policies, all I`m saying.
AMERICA: But we need to look into all of these. The more and more stories we do in the show, teachers and policemen in particular, there needs to be more psychological evaluation.
PINSKY: I heard you on that one.
AMERICA: Looking at the victim.
PINSKY: I agree with you, but Sam.
SCHACHER: This guy is blind in one eye now. This is insane. He was strapped in his seat belt. He couldn`t to anything. He was confused. He was passed out. Not OK.
PINSKY: Leave it there, but DVR us any time. Watch any time that way. Got the Forensic Files, coming up tonight, next. It`s a story about a teen believed to be a runaway who turns up, -- turns up dead, of course, cops are trying to find that killer and they do so. It`s on Forensic Files, and again, be sure to DVR us, and be here with us tomorrow night, same time. We`ll see you then. Forensic Files, start right now.
END
