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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview with White House Chief of Staff Denis McDonough; Arson in California?; MERS Worries; Fires Force Tens of Thousands to Evacuate

Aired May 15, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Veterans were denied health care so long, they died. Should the VA secretary keep his job? The White House chief of staff is here.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: No one should be treated this way in a country as great as ours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Practices of intimidation and cover-ups has to change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The national lead. A national disgrace. The VA secretary getting an earful from both sides today over absurd, even deadly wait times at veterans hospital first reported by CNN. Does the White House trust Shinseki to make it right? Do you?

Also, they are not just fires. They are potential crime scenes. Officials have a strong suspicion the fires burning around San Diego are no accident.

And also yet another confirmed case of a mysterious deadly virus. It's killed 171 people so far. Can health officials contain it before it becomes a pandemic?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We will begin the national lead. This hour, we're keeping a very close eye on the massive fires burning in the San Diego area, tens of thousands of area citizens evacuated, hundreds of structures in peril, the images just insane. We will go live to California in just a moment.

But, first, it is nothing short of a scandal. Our nation promised them health care. That was the deal, and we did not deliver. Sick veterans across the country have died while waiting for care at the VA.

Today, after a long and damning CNN investigation uncovered mismanagement, allegations of a secret waiting list and cover-ups, as our nation's heroes died, finally, after months of refusing to answer CNN's questions, Eric Shinseki, the secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs, finally got behind a mike to answer questions from lawmakers.

CNN's Drew Griffin broke the story. He joins us now -- Drew.

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: It's clear that Eric Shinseki, Jake, is not going to resign, but it's also clear I think from this hearing today that many senators don't believe he has a full grasp of the scope of this crisis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. DEAN HELLER (R), NEVADA: Do you believe that you're ultimately responsible for this?

GEN. ERIC SHINSEKI, SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS: I am.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): At his first congressional hearing since the VA wait list scandal broke, VA Secretary Eric Shinseki tried to defend his handling a crisis that now seems beyond his control.

SHINSEKI: Any allegation, any adverse incident like this makes me makes me as -- makes me mad as hell.

GRIFFIN: Facing senators who are demanding not only immediate changes at the VA, but are also raising the possibility it's time for the FBI to be called in.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: Is there evidence here of criminal wrongdoing, that is, falsifying records, false statements to the federal government? That's a crime under the...

SHINSEKI: It should be, yes.

GRIFFIN: The latest crisis in the VA took off when CNN investigated the hospital in Phoenix where 40 veterans died waiting for care, according to sources. Those same sources say many of the vets were on a secret list, designed to hide the fact vets were waiting for months for appointments.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Are people -- quote, unquote -- "cooking the books"? Is that in fact a problem within the health care system?

SHINSEKI: I'm not aware in other than a number of isolated cases where there is evidence of that. But the fact that there is evidence in a couple of cases behooves us to go and take a thorough look.

GRIFFIN: General Shinseki may call it isolated, but CNN sources say just the opposite. CNN has learned the inspector general's office is investigating allegations in at least half-a-dozen states and whistle- blowers have come forward from across the country saying their VAs manipulate wait times as well.

The VA does admit 23 people in nine states have died because of delayed care, many of them veterans who were forced to wait too long for simple tests, like colonoscopies and endoscopies.

HELLER: Could you tell to me, after knowing all this information, why you should not resign?

SHINSEKI: Well, I tell you, Senator, that I came here to make things better for veterans. That was my appointment by the president.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: How long that appointment is going to last, we will wait and see. It's clear from today's testimony, Jake, these senators are growing impatient with this guy in his position -- Jake.

TAPPER: Drew Griffin, thank you so much.

White House Chief of Staff Denis McDonough joins me now exclusively for reaction to all this.

Denis, thanks for being here.

Obviously, General Shinseki served his country honorably. We all appreciate his service, but how on earth can the president have full confidence in him? People died.

DENIS MCDONOUGH, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Ric -- the fact of these deaths is an outrage to the president. He's made that clear.

And you heard what General Shinseki had to say today. He's mad as hell about this. Nobody is more mad than the present. And I have the scars to show it, given his reaction to it as he and I have talked about it.

But Ric Shinseki has dedicated his life to the armed forces of the United States, to the defense of this country. And he has shown over the course of nearly six years now his commitment to our veterans.

We have seen a dramatic expansion of 16 percent more vets into the health care system, 14 percent additional -- 14 percent increase in spending in the health care system. We have had a dramatic expansion of education benefits through the G.I. Bill, $40 billion for our vets, who have given us so much to make sure that they have the opportunity they deserve.

And so Ric is going to get to the bottom of this. The president is demanding that, and that's exactly what we will do.

TAPPER: But this is what happened. There was a new order put out by Shinseki saying that any new applicants to the VA for primary care need to be seen within 14 days.

And a lot of critics wondered at the time if the VA was capable of that. And what all of these VA hospitals, one we know of others that we suspect, is they cooked the books. That was under Shinseki. I'm not saying he didn't do other good things. But that was under him. People didn't tell him the truth, didn't tell his underlings the truth. Why is he not held accountable for it? MCDONOUGH: He holds himself to account.

And you saw him go before Congress to ask a very -- a series of very difficult questions. But you also see him travel the country every day to talk to vets and their families. He holds himself accountable to his men and women with whom he served, whom he led for decades.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: ... stay in the job?

MCDONOUGH: Well, let me tell you a little bit else about what he's done.

TAPPER: Yes.

MCDONOUGH: Take this question about the backlog on claims.

We have seen a dramatic expansion in the number of people seeking claims because of decisions, brave decisions that Ric Shinseki made. If you have PTS, then you don't need to have -- you will have a presumption of making your claim whole.

If you had Gulf War illness, if you had exposure to Agent Orange, that leads to a dramatic increases in the number of veterans who are trying to get compensated for the disaster that they have lived through.

TAPPER: Right.

MCDONOUGH: Ric Shinseki is the first secretary of the Veterans Administration who said, you know what? I am going to put a clock on myself. Not only am I going to make these tough decisions. I'm going to put up a scoreboard and hold myself to account.

So, he's put the backlog on himself and said, I'm going to finish this before the end of 2015. And you know what he's doing? He's dramatically reducing that. It's 50 percent less than it was. And it's because he cares deeply about these vets, as does the president. And that's exactly what we're going to do. We're not going to get involved in any political games. We're just going to get the job done.

TAPPER: But, Denis, senators say there's ample evidence that federal crimes may have been committed. Senator Blumenthal said we need to bring in the FBI to make sure that no evidence is destroyed.

Why is the Justice Department sitting on the sidelines on this?

MCDONOUGH: What I would say is, I would just refer you to the Veterans Administration I.G. on this.

They are investigating this, digging into it, taking a hard look at it. That's right where it should be.

TAPPER: Lives are on the line. And this is not new. Anyone who reads the papers know, in 2011, there was an outbreak of Legionnaires' disease in the VA in Pittsburgh. And what happened there? The individual running the hospital, even though I think five or six veterans died as a result of that outbreak, there was no accountability.

The person that ran the hospital got a perfect review, with no mention of Legionnaires' disease. And the person that was the regional director got a bonus. What can be done to stop this culture of no accountability in the VA system?

MCDONOUGH: You heard what Ric said to the Senate committee today, that, in this instance, there's been more than 250 cases of people who have been held accountable for their actions.

He can explain that in great detail. The president, as soon as he heard about this latest outrage in Phoenix, called Ric and said, you know what, Ric? I need to know exactly what happened. I need to know exactly the accountability measures that you have and that you can institute, and if it's not enough, then let's change it and make sure that we hold people to account.

TAPPER: But I'm telling you right now that happened in 2011 under Secretary Shinseki, and that person was not held accountable. The person got a perfect performance review and got a bonus. There are lots of examples like this.

MCDONOUGH: And I'm telling you, in that same health care system, Jake, we have dramatically expanded access, because that's exactly what our vets have earned and that's what deserve, and that's what we will continue to do.

TAPPER: This letter from the chairman of the House Veterans Affairs Committee from one year ago warns of dramatic problems at the VA, "a perfect illustration of the management failures, deception, lack of accountability permeating VA's health care system, an alarming pattern of serious and significant patient care issues."

This was sent to President Obama in May 2013, according to Congressman Miller. His office got no response from the president. It was referred to General Shinseki, who, according to them, sent back boilerplate. This is a year ago he was warning about this.

MCDONOUGH: Every day a year -- whether it's a year ago, whether it's yesterday, whether it's tomorrow, the president is dedicated to making sure that our vets get the care that they have earned.

(CROSSTALK)

MCDONOUGH: And we work with Chairman Miller, we work with Chairman Sanders, we work with all of the members of the House and Senate to make sure that they have it.

That's why the president has seen dramatically expanded investments in Veterans Administration operations over the course of these last five years, year on year, historic increases in that budget, at a time, by the way, Jake, when we have seen budgets under intense pressure. We will continue to make those investments. (CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: How many stories like this, how many letters like this, how many dead veterans do you need before somebody asks the question within the White House, maybe this guy isn't the best steward of these veterans?

MCDONOUGH: The question, Jake, is, are we doing everything we can every day to get the veterans the care and the opportunities that they deserve?

TAPPER: But you are not. This letter was sent a year ago. And you guys ignored it.

MCDONOUGH: And we have been working aggressively to ensure that not only is health care expanded, opportunities made more ready to our vets, but that people are held to account, as Ric is doing in this case. We will continue to do that.

TAPPER: Last question, sir. And that is, I appreciate your being here and I appreciate your coming and facing these questions live on television.

Drew Griffin has been trying to get an interview with General Shinseki for months, literally. He is the one that broke the story. He's the reason there was a hearing today. Why has Shinseki avoided reporters like Drew Griffin? Why does the VA cordon itself off from accountability, not only from lawmakers and the public, but the press? Doesn't there need to be a bigger cultural change there?

MCDONOUGH: I think what you just saw today is Ric sit down for a three-hour hearing, stay in the hearing to sit to hear the veterans service organizations testify.

After Ric was done, he could have very easily just gotten up and left. Then he came out and he sat down with the press again. Ric is not only going to held himself to account to the press, to Drew, your colleague, or to anybody else, but what he's doing day in and day out is sitting down with veterans and their families and making sure that they get what they need. That's what we owe them. That's what they will get.

TAPPER: It is what we will owe them. And I hope it's what they will get.

Denis McDonough, we thank you for coming in and answering these questions. We appreciate it.

MCDONOUGH: Thanks, Jake.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Best to your family.

Coming up on THE LEAD: exploding houses, thousands evacuated, as fires burn out of control outside San Diego. Now officials are opening a criminal investigation. Were these fires intentionally set?

Plus, millions of vehicles recalled by GM six years after dealers were warned of a problem with some of them. What took so long? Our money lead is ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

You're looking at live pictures from KSWB. The fires turning San Diego into a giant, charcoaled briquette. The big question now, were they set intentionally? At least eight separate fires burning all at once, blackening the areas, normally picturesque views with billowing clouds of smoke.

Sources tell our affiliate KGTV that all but one of them have a suspicious ignition point. The images are unearthly, looking like a firenado starting to form here in San Marcos. Yes, firenadoes, I did not make that up. That's a real thing and they are terrifying to behold.

One bureau chief says he can't remember it being this hot, this dry for this long, making conditions the perfectly wrong kind of situation to create these fast-moving fires, wrong for us, that is. Forecasters say today may be the hottest of the whole week, with highs between 98 and 106 degrees.

Here's a look at the spots and frames around the San Diego area. Nearly 10,000 acres burned so far, which is more than 15-square miles. The fire so massive you can even see the smoke from space. Look at this photo, showing -- it's from NASA, showing massive clouds blowing out to the Pacific.

Southern California, of course, is no stranger to massive fires like these, but eight all at one time? Officials suspect it may be more than just bad luck this time around.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HORN, SAN DIEGO COUNTY SUPERVISOR: I'm sure it could all be by chance, but I'll leave it up to the investigators. I just think that there's too much of a coincidence here.

CHIEF MICHAEL DAVIS, CARLSBAD FIRE DEPT.: We've had extraordinary numbers of started fires and each fire will be treated as a crime scene until it's proven to be accidental.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Perhaps no community has been impacted more than Carlsbad, California. The affluent resort city nicknamed the Village by the Sea, 30,000 evacuation notice is served in Carlsbad alone. Flames there destroyed at least four homes and several units of an apartment building. Even Legoland, the theme park in Carlsbad, had to be cleared out, though it's back open today.

Our own Dan Simon is standing by live in Carlsbad, California.

Dan, what are you seeing around you?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, first of all, you can see these two giant plumes of smoke behind me. That's San Marcos, about three miles away from where I'm standing. That is where the active fire is at this moment.

But here in Carlsbad, they really got hit hard. You can see a couple of homes leveled to the ground. This home right here where fire crews have been continuing to put out some of the hot spots all day long and then right next to this house you can see another home leveled to the ground. You know, you had nine fires going at once.

One county official telling me he's never seen anything like it. And he's questioning -- and you talked about it earlier, questioning whether these fires were intentionally set. At this point, they are treating these fires, all of them, basically, at the crime scene but at this point, no evidence of arson.

This is supposed to be the hottest day, Jake. We're expecting triple digit temperatures today and the winds are continuing to pick up and that's what's basically fueling the fire there in San Marcos. You've got a couple dozen military aircraft dumping water, that got hundreds of firefighters on the ground.

So, you've got a lot of resources battling this thing, but it just goes to show you when you have these drought conditions combined with the wind, it really creates a lethal mix, Jake.

TAPPER: Dan Simon, thanks. Stay safe.

Let's go to the phones now. Let's bring in Matt Hall. He's the mayor of Carlsbad, California, the city taking it so hard.

Mayor Hall, based on the evidence you've seen, do you believe the fires in your community and elsewhere in the southern California area are a product of arson?

MAYOR MATT HALL, CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): We don't have any knowledge of that yet and our primary focus right now is just fighting the fires and trying to keep both our citizens safe and as little damage to our community as possible.

TAPPER: So just hypothetically speaking, much of the fire zone, including your city, is considered relatively affluent. Does that, in general, make your citizens targets for things like arson?

HALL: Yes. Again, I mean, one can make that assumption but we really have no knowledge of that. And although that -- you know, I'm sure people who are thinking about that, I would just ask people to keep focus on what we're having to deal with today and everybody have patience as we work our way through this.

And this has actually grown far greater than just Carlsbad. The real focus now is in San Marcos and how that thing is really flaring up here in the last hour.

TAPPER: Fair enough, sir. Can you give us an update, how much of the fire is contained in Carlsbad? How many structures have burned?

HALL: In Carlsbad, it's been about 400 acres burned. It's about 60 percent contained. In the last hour, we have three minor flare-ups, there were 22 glowing units destroyed, including an 18-unit apartment complex, four homes, two commercial buildings, there were six other homes damaged, two vehicles. And that's about the -- what we know at this moment in time.

TAPPER: And Mayor Hall, most importantly, how are the citizens of Carlsbad?

HALL: Right now, I think everybody is calm. I know everybody's anxious to get back into their homes. We have re-energized the homes in the area that were -- that took the brunt of the fire and we're hoping to try and get people back later today.

But as the winds are playing games with us right now and with these flare-ups, our primary focus is safety.

TAPPER: Our thoughts and prayers are with you and the citizens of Carlsbad. Mayor Matt Hall, thank you so much.

Tens and thousands in the San Diego area had to pick up and flee at a moment's notice. Many are in shelters or staying with loved ones right now. One of those individuals is Dr. Gay Walker who was all the way across the country for her daughter's graduation from Duke Law School.

She flew back home to San Marcos, California, didn't get to rest from her travels for very long. Gay Walker joins me on the phone now. She's currently staying with a friend.

Dr. Walker, are you OK? We understand your family's not with you right now?

DR. GAY WALKER, SAN MARCOS, CALIFORNIA RESIDENT (via telephone): I'm doing as well as can be expected. No, my family's so where in New Mexico by now, I think.

TAPPER: And you were only home for about three hours when the police came through? What did they say?

WALKER: They were on a loud speaker and they were telling us we had about five minutes. So, I grabbed my cats, threw in carriers and grabbed my suitcase full of clothes that had not been unpacked yet and dashed out.

TAPPER: Describe the scene in your neighborhood. Was it a traffic jam? One of those apocalyptic scenes in movies when there's a disaster?

WALKER: It was an orderly evacuation but it was reminiscent of something apocalyptic. Cars were lined up bumper to bumper getting out of the neighborhood but it was reasonably orderly. Everybody was polite and going forward pretty quickly.

TAPPER: Do you have any way of knowing what is happening with your home? I'm sure you're very concerned about its status.

WALKER: My eyeballs have been pretty well glued to the news and as nearly as I can tell, my areas of homes has not been hit by the fire yet. I'm kind of nervous right now with the fire spreading to harm me grove, we're directly below that. So, if the winds keep blowing out of the east, we could be in trouble.

TAPPER: There's obviously no time frame yet for your possible return to your home. What's the earliest that you think you might be able to go back?

WALKER: I can't imagine being allowed back in before tomorrow. It's really going to depend on if the winds keep blowing in the direction that they are blowing, how long it takes them to get containment.

TAPPER: Dr. Walker, thank you for your time. We're glad you and your cats and your family are OK and we're hoping for your house.

WALKER: Thank you. Appreciate that.

TAPPER: When we come back, the killer virus is continuing to spread as another new case is reported and no vaccine and lingering questions about how it's passed from person to person. What should you do to protect yourself?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

In other national news, there are already two confirmed cases of Middle East respiratory syndrome or MERS on U.S. soil. And now officials in the Netherlands have today identified a second case there, stoking fears of a swelling global health crisis. The World Health Organization called MERS a more serious and urgent threat just yesterday. And the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control, is already scrambling to stop an outbreak, while stopping short of telling travelers to cancel that trip to Riyadh, federal officials posted these warnings in 22 airports, telling passengers to take extra precautions.

But will these steps be enough? Or is it just a matter of time before this becomes a full-blown pandemic?

Joining me is the director of National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at NIH, Dr. Anthony Fauci.

Dr. Fauci, good to see you, as always.

Walk us through what is going inside the medical community right now. How are doctors and researchers getting ready to fight this thing if it does become more serious? DR, ANTHONY FAUCI, DIR., NATL. INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY & INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, it's a big if and let's start off with that. Again, even though we're seeing more cases, they seem to be quite clearly related to people who come into contact with sick people in a hospital setting. There does not appear to be any indication that it's mutated or developing the capability of spreading more easily in a broader way through the community. But we still need to stay very, very heads up for that possibility.

What the medical community is doing, the CDC has extraordinary surveillance capabilities. You just mentioned correctly the airport situation now where they're posting alerts for people to do.