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Don Lemon Tonight
Worst Fire Season in A Long Time; September 11 Memorial Museum; Story about Family and Fame, Rap Music and Crack Cocaine
Aired May 15, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BILL WEIR, CNN TONIGHT HOST: I'm Bill Weir. Thanks for checking in on CNN Tonight. And we begin with breaking news with one official calling the worst fire season we've seen in a long, long time. Some 10,000 acres, burning near San Diego, one of the worse of the first in Marcos or a firenado rose and twisted in the air. CNN's Gary Tuchman live for us in San Marcos tonight. Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bill, it's been a volatile and dangerous stay. We're in San Marcos, California, to the north east of San Diego. This is a beautiful town with beautiful neighborhoods. But this neighborhood right now is a ghost neighborhood. People are evacuated, all that is left of the firefighters and us. And this is what we have been doing all day. The hill top on top of San Marcos blazed for the last three hours there, meeting with success and knocking it down. You still see the smoke, but that blaze that was on top with surrounding homes -- many homes here in San Marcos have been destroyed. Firefighters from all over Southern California are here on scene. This day started off where it appeared we were not going to have so much of a problem. The fires were much less than they were yesterday. But then, around 12 noon, we saw them pick up dramatically.
We were in a place where we saw this so-called fire tornado. What they do is making the fire spread hundreds of yards away in matter of seconds. We are literally standing in an area where there is no fire. We saw trees and we saw a foliage. We walked away, and five minutes later, it was engulfed in flames, and every tree that had been there for generations was gone. Over to this side, we saw a fire short time ago. We're gonna zoom in, and you are going to see a house that burned to the ground. All you see is the foundation. And that is what people in this town of 83,000 people are dealing with. They're very scared. They're used to fires here in Southern California. You move here and you know it is going to happen. But typically it doesn't happen until the middle of the summer, July or August, beginning of the fall. This is May.
Fire season usually doesn't start at this point, but it's been so dry in Southern California, so dry throughout the state. That's why this happened. But the winds have calmed down quite a bit and this is a crucial key moment right now. Right now, the local time just after 6 P.M. It is the beginning of the evening. By the time it gets dark fire decreases. And then tomorrow the temperature is supposed to be down about 10 degrees. Today, in the upper 90s, very low humidity, tomorrow, in the 80s, higher humidity, and on the weekend, it is supposed to be upper 60s, low 70s, typical weather. So, the worst they think will be tonight. They hope that by tomorrow it gets better. The most important fact still, no one has been killed. No one has been seriously injured.
WEIR: Oh, thank goodness. Given those hellish pictures, Gary Tuchman, stay safe. Thank you.
A lot to get to in tonight's show including the day that began President Obama indicating the most sacred space in America, the September 11 Memorial Museum.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Here, we tell their story, so that generations yet unborn will never forget.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEIR: Some families resent the $24 admission fee and gift shop atop the remains of their loved ones, but the former mayor, Rudy Giuliani, says they almost got it perfect. Almost. Even if you're not a fan, everyone is talking sports these days, from Sterling's bigotry to Sam's sexuality. And if anybody can put it in context, it is sports columnist extraordinary Rick Reilly who will sit down tonight and make you laugh.
And an incredible story of wrath and redemption, two brothers with the American dream. They went from selling crack to rhyming about it. It made them multi-millionaires until one had a crisis of conscience, so who chooses the dark, and the light? What happens next? It is a yarn I can't wait to share.
Let's begin tonight with what happened this morning. And after years of political bickering and costly delays, America's leaders dedicating a building designed to make you weep and reflect, filled with mementos and souls lost, heroes born, lives saved there, a somber dedication of the ceremony of the 9-11 museum took place at Bedrock, 70 feet below the surface. Next week, the public will be allowed to pay their respects to the 2,700 plus Americans taken in the worst attack on American soil.
And joining me now, a man whose name is synonymous with that day, the New York mayor and former presidential candidate, Rudy Giuliani. Great to see you, sir. Thanks for joining us.
RUDY GIULIANI, NEW YORK MAYOR AND FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Nice to be with you. Thank you for having me.
WEIR: Was there one image, one piece of memorabilia, one sound that moved you more than any other?
GIULIANI: Well, the story that moved me more than any other was the gentleman who I introduced, the firefighter who was saved after miraculously having falling 30 stories, and even crushed by the building. And because it kinda alcove from around them, they were saved. That was personal to me because I visited them just minutes after they were saved at Bellevue Hospital and St. Vincent's Hospital. And I remember talking to them at a time and they were in an almost spiritual state when I talked to them in the hospital, realizing that by the grace of God they had been carried down 20 or 30 stories. Didn't die, and then could have been crushed and were not. So, that story -- that story really has always meant a lot to me and getting me out of the bad feelings of September 11th.
WEIR: You say this museum moves you like few others. You walk out of there sort of emotionally drained. But there are family members -- I mean, the wounds are still raw for so many folks who protest how it is done and what is there and the remains. Do you think that if they see it, that will change? Or will that fight always go on?
GIULIANI: It is impossible when so many people are going through trauma of this nature, which is hard for anyone to understand if you have not been through it. It is the worst thing that could happen to you, put in big blaring lights in which you're expected to act in certain ways. So, people are all going to react differently. It would have been impossible to come up with a museum that satisfied everyone.
WEIR: Yeah.
GIULIANI: I was not satisfied with the museum, but I was satisfied with 80 percent of the museum. And for me, if I can get 80 percent, that is a home run.
WEIR: What do you want more of?
GIULIANI: Oh, I'm not even going to talk about it. There were things -- I wanted it much bigger, I probably would have never wanted a tower there. I want the whole thing devoted to all of these people because I think these are the bravest people that you know have existed in the last 100 years.
WEIR: Right.
GIULIANI: But what they had, this is as great a museum as I have ever been in. This is one of the great American iconic destinations.
WEIR: I love that neighborhood. It is back, the tower is there. This is done.
GIULIANI: Twice as many people live there as before September 11th. I really want to kind of scream this out. I want to say at the end of the museum, twice as many people lived there as before September 11th. Because you know what it says to the terrorists? You failed. You completely failed. You were supposed to frighten these people away and it didn't work.
WEIR: Can we pivot the politics for a moment?
GIULIANI: Anytime you want.
WEIR: The topic of the week. Karl Rove.
(CROSSTALK) GIULIANI: My friend Karl and my friend Hillary.
WEIR: And your theories about brain health going both ways, what do you think of the idea of bringing it up? Was it a successful way to raise legitimate questions about her fitness from office or a mistake?
GIULIANI: Neither. I think it will pass away. We're so far away from the election this will all pass away. Look, her age will raise health questions, 67, 68, 89, going to be 71, 72 when she finishes. They raised it about Ronald Reagan, every time he ran, that was a legitimate issue. It was raised. I think he was about her age when he ran the first time. Second time, in the 70s. Those issues were raised about John McCain. He had to put out the analysis. So, it is a legitimate issue, but no more so than it was for any them. I don't see it as a particular issue for Hillary Clinton.
WEIR: What about this new commission on Benghazi? You have been sort of an attack dog on that, Krauthammer, conservative columnist, says it might be a mistake. You were talking about oh, it's Obamacare.
GIULIANI: I rarely disagree with Charles Krauthammer, but I think there's a reason for the Benghazi committee irrespective to politics. We don't know the answer. We don't know the answer to the death of four Americans, we got to find out the answer. Maybe it's my background...
WEIR: But there have been seven reports.
GIULIANI: Well, there could be 100 reports and if you don't have the answer you got to have the answer. Sometimes, it would take four or five years of investigating to get the answer. There were seven reports, committees with overlapping jurisdiction. A White House that did not cooperate. I mean, the last memo came out. They were hiding a memo that was significantly relevant to what was said on television. I happened to be on television with Susan Rice that day, on your channel, on CNN, with Candy Crowley. And when she said that, I can't tell you what I said in the blue room. I think...
(CROSSTALK)
WEIR: The green room, but you made it blue.
GIULIANI: OK. I think it began with BS.
WEIR: OK.
GIULIANI: Because it made no sense to me from the moment she said it. From the moment she said, this was a spontaneous attack. I said people don't have hand-held mortars that they are lobbing into a compound, as part of a spontaneous attack. That is a planned attack that is a terrorist attack. We had to have known about it in advance. And I believe it was a deception then, and I believe it's a deception now. I think it is a bad deception.
WEIR: Take a look at this list, Bush, Paul Ryan, Huckabee, Christie. Can you beat any of these guys? Are you considering? GIULIANI: They're all friends of mine.
(CROSSTALK)
GIULIANI: Chris, I was there when he announced for governor. I just introduced Jeb Bush to the Manhattan Institute, and these are really good men.
WEIR: So, you might enjoy running against them?
GIULIANI: Well, I ran against good men before. John McCain is one of my best friends, and I ran against him.
WEIR: So, you're open to the idea?
GIULIANI: I don't know if I am. I'm gonna look at the field and we'll figure this out. I'll sit down with a bunch of them and ask them what they think and we'll try to figure out who is the best candidate. Right now, for me as a republican, 2014 is the opportunity to try to have a republican senate, to try to straighten out some of the thing things that the president is doing to the country, and we can straighten out and some of them we can't straighten it out until we have a new president.
WEIR: Mr. Mayor, always good to talk to you.
GIULIANI: And thank you.
WEIR: When we come back, one of the best sports writers in the game, Rick Reilly, and his farewell. Why he is writing his obituary right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEIR: Take it from a reformed local sports chip, there is nothing more so crushing with a press pass around your neck, walking up to a childhood heroes, and finds out he is a complete ass. And few have turned those moments into an entertaining copy better than Rick Reilly. Over his many years with that sign, he made bare our heroes (inaudible) he made reading about sports more fun than a Dubai expense account.
RICK REILLY, TIGER, MEET MY SISTER AND OTHER THINGS I PROBABLY SHOULD NOT HAVE SAID AUTHOR: I like it.
WEIR: His line. His latest book is Tiger, Meet My Sister And Other Things I Probably Should Not Have Said. And it starts with his very own obituary. Can I go to your funeral?
REILLY: Yeah, I wanted to write my own obit, because I didn't want anybody to screw it up.
WEIR: When the speech is done and the (inaudible) wrong, whichever comes first, you are driving monster trucks...
REILLY: I got to drive a monster truck over six parked cars once and I just think you guys would love it.
WEIR: It's an American dream.
REILLY: I can write your obit if you want.
WEIR: Really?
REILLY: What would you want your lead to be?
WEIR: Never met a beer I didn't like.
(CROSSTALK)
WEIR: Women liked him more than he thought they did or something like that.
REILLY: I thought you were going to ask me about the title.
WEIR: I love the title. I want to save Tiger for the next segment. We want to get into your all time heroes. Let's start current and work back in time. Donald Sterling, USA today just reporting now he is refusing to pay the $2.5 million fine. He is rolling up his sleeves.
REILLY: I have known him since 1991. Whenever you shake his hand, you want to bathe in Listerine.
(LAUGHTER)
REILLY: He is probably one of the worst people I have ever met. I had to cover a thing about one of his mistresses, where he proceeded to say in a deposition all the places where they had sex and how great it was. And this girl was like 22, he was like 60 then. We were like oh, it just got worse. You know, I have done this story before.
(CROSSTALK)
REILLY: She showed me the Nazi arm band. She said I don't like black people around because they steal from you. She ripped Asian kids. I said I told you I have an Asian kid. Oh, not yours. So Donald Sterling is just Marg Schott with larger breasts.
(LAUGHTER)
REILLY: We've done this.
WEIR: What about Michael Sand (ph) What your reaction to draft day?
REILLY: First of all, I have no problem with kiss. In 2014, we're ready for this. OK, some people were not quite ready for the kiss, there it is. But it was OK with me. But now I'm not happy with this decision to do a documentary, multi-part documentary on Oprah. Because -- how is that going to help him with the team? He said to us I want to be a regular football player. I don't want to be a gay football player. I just want to be like everyone else. Well, everyone else is not going on Oprah with a multi-part. So, then the agent, who by the way never represented a player before in his life. He is just out of college. He is a rookie, says today, well, we're not going to shoot it in the practice facility or at games. We're not going to interview a single player or we are not going to interview a single coach. I'm like you're not going to get that much buzz out of the kissing, dude.
(LAUGHTER)
WEIR: Excuse me, guys, my producer from Oprah is here. It's not the most endearing sentence in a locker room.
REILLY: Yes.
WEIR: Aaron Hernandez indicted today. This is scary. You can laugh at the Florida kid canceling crab legs, which the surveillance video of that came out, but double murder?
REILLY: Well, now he is indicted for two more murders today. This goes with the Odin Lloyd murder he was indicted before previously. That's three. But the most amazing thing about this is Aaron Hernandez, if we're to believe the police killed two people, then not long after signed a five-year, $40 million extension, and then played 12 games, having killed two people. And even gave a quote which is now chilling as you read it. You can see it on the internet. As he was talking to reporters after signing this deal he said I just hope I continue to make the right choices and I'm around, so that I can keep living the good life. Now, if he murdered two people within a month of saying that, what sort of cold-blooded person can do that? It gives me the goose bumps.
WEIR: But as for the guys who gave him the 40 mil, do you think that Belichick (ph) said look at the stats and said hey, innocent until proven guilty?
REILLY: Well, no. They had no idea. Do you think they knew they were signing a murderer?
WEIR: Well, that was before the suspicion came.
REILLY: Right. Right.
WEIR: Yeah. Yeah.
REILLY: Well, you know, he had had trouble in Florida. There were suspicions he was kind of a bad dude, because you know, in the NFL, you want bad dudes. You want guys who are just going to rip people's faces off.
WEIR: Right.
REILLY: The problem with sports, as I have covered them for almost 40 years now, we want them to just be animals inside the ring. Outside, oh, and it is very hard...
WEIR: Gentlemen and virgins.
REILLY: Now, this is like nothing I have ever seen. We'll see, but right now, they're just allegations, but they have a gun and that is not what they had with the previous murder allegations.
WEIR: Well, let's lighten things up with stolen crab legs then, let's cleanse our palate with that.
REILLY: Well, the video, did you see it?
WEIR: Yeah, I think we got it.
REILLY: Oh you got it.
WEIR: Yeah. He goes over to the seafood department.
REILLY: Well this is Jameis Winston, the FSU quarterback who won the national championship this year -- won the Heisman.
WEIR: I think his excuse was, I didn't realize they're so expensive.
REILLY: Yeah. To me this is so shell-fish, you know.
(LAUGHTER)
REILLY: He just walks out behind the cop. There's the cop, and there's Winston with this $38 in crab legs that he didn't pay for and says he just forget to pay for them.
WEIR: Well there was the kid at Yukon who said I go to bed hungry every night because the NCAA won't let me have a sandwich.
(CROSSTLAK)
REILLY: Yeah. Well, that was actually a very cool thing he said. Of Yukon. He said look, we're only allowed to eat until seven, I mean, I got teenage boys, they ate until 11:00, you know. So, I think they have fixed that, I'm totally proud of the North Western kid. Not for them to be paid because I think it's impossible for them to be paid with title nine. You pay a football player you definitely have to pay a female athlete. What I'm proud of is, there's taking a very brave stance, because if they're hurt their freshman year, say they break their back. That's not covered the rest of their live. They have no say in all of these hours. There's almost no limit on how often these coaches can make them work. It's an eight-hour job just playing basketball or football in division one. And then they got to get grades.
WEIR: Yeah.
REILLY: They have no lives.
WEIR: Let's take a break, when we come back, from Tiger to Lance. Rick's speed round with heroes and ghost.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes or no? Did you ever take banned substances to enhance your cycling performance?
LANCE ARMSTRONG: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes or no. Was one of those banned substances EPO?
ARMSTRONG: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever blood dope or use blood transfusions to enhance your cycling performance?
ARMSTRONG: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEIR: Rick Reilly defended that man, Lance Armstrong, for 14 years in his columns. And after that interview he said to you, what? A two word I'm sorry e-mail?
REILLY: Sorry, dude.
WEIR: Oh, sorry, dude.
REILLY: 14 years he put egg on my face, and I would even ask him off the record, hey, just tell me off the record if you're doing this stuff, because it keeps coming up and up. And every time he would be more and more adamant. And he wasn't doing it. And you can defend me, don't worry about it. So, I flew to down there. Three weeks ago to his house, hoping to find him in a fetal position, you know. Or, you know, with a bathrobe, and vodka, and cigarette just bumping into walls. He looked better than I've ever seen him. I said how come you look s so good? He goes, I'm at the bottom, I'm so relieved not to have to tell this lie anymore.
WEIR: Really? Wow.
REILLY: I said why did you lie to me for 14 years, I kind of thought we were friends? He was, I am sorry. I had such a house of card built up. If I tell you, then whole thing comes down. But still, it's not fair.
WEIR: Will he see redemption in his life time? Will people ever welcome him back in?
REILLY: Oh, yeah, I think so. You know what it really hurts him the most, you know, he lost $60, $70 million. But he still got a lot, I mean, I'm not gonna hold the telephone for him. When he got emotional three weeks ago was, he's not allowed in the cancer community anymore. And he really did do so much for cancer patients. Say what you want about him. But he did raise $500 million. And I sat with him about a dozen times when he typed out e-mail answers to people who had just diagnosed, answering their question, perfect stranger. So, I know that he did really terrible thing and it really pissed me off. He ruined my reputation in terms of bike reporting. But in some ways he did good things and he can never go back.
WEIR: Where does the title come from, Tiger, Meet My Sister and Other Thing I Probably Shouldn't Have Said?
REILLY: So, in my -- in my laptop, I collect sentence that never been uttered. In the history of the English language like, Tebow was so drunk last night. And Shaq, you shoot the technical. Tiger, I'd like you to meet my sister. No ones gonna say that. Because do you really want him dating your sister?
WEIR: No, bigger jerk, Michael Jordan or Barry Bonds?
REILLY: Oh, Bonds, times six.
WEIR: Time six.
REILLY: You know he wouldn't show up for the team photo? They had to cyber him in. He didn't eat the teams spread, the food. He has his own nutritionist. Players weren't allowed near his corner of the locker room. He's just brutal. Didn't tip.
WEIR: And Jordan. I covered him in Chicago for three championships. Talk about a guy who wants to rip the jugular out of everything in his way.
REILLY: Yeah.
WEIR: You saw it in the hall of fame acceptance speech.
REILLY: Which is in the column I wrote about it in the book. It's unbelievable, he sat up there and ripped everybody in the audience. His teammate from high school, you kept me from starting. Dean Smith, his college coach, you wouldn't let me appear on the cover of sports illustrated. Pat Riley, you wouldn't let me have lunch with Charles Oakley. He -- I'm like, I'm sitting where they can go. Dude you won everything.
WEIR: Yeah.
REILLY: What would've been like if you loss?
WEIR: Really, but tell the Cinnamon roll story.
REILLY: So, this is what Michael Jordan is like. He's on doing ads, he always has his cook making his favorite cinnamon rolls, but when he goes to shoot and leaves the trailer. He spits on all the rolls so nobody else can eat them.
(CROSSTALK)
WEIR: Right? Exactly.
REILLY: How bad do you want to win?
WEIR: But that's the thing you right about big people acting small, small people acting big. One name that you love? One hero for you.
REILLY: Chy Johnson was this Down syndrome kid in Arizona. She was being bullied. The team counter back found out that she was being bullied. As she went to each class, instead of beating up the bullies, he invited her to his lunch table everyday. But cheerleaders and other players and he assigned one player to take her to each class. And when I surprised them in the cafeteria that day there she was. It was real. And now that he is on his Mormon mission, his little brother is doing it. And it's just -- it's gonna be a Disney movie. I think it's gonna be cool.
WEIR: And some of your best stuff is parenting tip. As a further dad, if there's one thing I learned about parenting is the best gift you can give your kid is being someone they hate to descent point. And they don't gonna remember whether they win or loose. But that time in the dugout when you who shout out of their nose, right?
REILLY: That's what did -- they'll never remember...
(CROSSTALK)
REILLY: So, relax and just have fun.
WEIR: Tiger, Meet My Sister And Other Things I Probably Shouldn't Have Said. Rick Reilly, I can't believe you're retiring. I don't believe it. It will be like Barbara Walters, it's all fake for the parties. When we come back, an amazing story of two brothers. Couldn't be more alike until rap stardom made them millionaires and set them into very different path. You have to watch this, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEIR: And now a story about family and fame, rap music and crack cocaine. You can find plenty of critics who say rap is a scourge that only glamorizes the worst elements of urban society. And you can find plenty of defenders who say this is simply an art form. Recognizing real life in the street. The (inaudible) tells gangster stories on film. Rappers tell their version over beats. But it is rare to find these two points of view in men born of the same blood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEIR: Once there were two brothers, Gene and Terrence. And they were similar in every way.
TERRENCE "PUSHA T" THORNTON: The pressure was -- it was about having things. It was about greed and about drugs. It was about having money.
WEIR: Both had a skill for selling rock cocaine.
GENE "NO MALICE" THORNTON: I'd come home like $700.
WEIR: At 15?
G. THORNTON: At 15.
WEIR: And both had had a skill for rapping about selling rock cocaine. And that combination made them millionaires. When did you know you had made it?
T. THORNTON: Man, the MTV awards.
G. THORNTON: MTV, VMAS. And we were featured on the song with Justin Timberlake, called like I Love You.
T. THORNTON: I was like, wait a minute, I won the MTV awards, like people are calling me behind this.
G. THORNTON: Yeah, that was huge.
WEIR: Must have been high that night.
T. THORNTON: I think about it too much, I might get high. I might get high right now.
G. THORNTON: There are a lot of highs in this business. And one thing I come out to find out is that you're always searching for that next high.
WEIR: But just as they're about to explode into superstar status, one of the brothers made the stunning choice to walk away.
T. THORNTON: And I came to him, I was like man, I got these ideas. I got these beats, you know, I want you to check it out. He was like, I'm not doing another Clipse album right now. Wow, now that was hard. That was hard.
G. THORNTON: That's the house we grew up in right here.
WEIR: Oh, This one here?
G. THORNTON: Yeah.
WEIR: It all began in this middle class neighborhood in Virginia Beach where they had a good childhood, loving mom and dad, nice pool out back. But a couple of neighborhoods over, friends were proving there was real money to be made.
G. THORNTON: I mean, to see guys in high school with crazy cars and candy paint and -- it was just astonishing to me. I was like there is no way I'm gonna know everybody and then get money and not going to get that.
WEIR: When did you understand how they were getting that money?
G. THORNTON: Oh, instantly.
WEIR: How did it work, what was the business, what was your job? This was all rock cocaine right? It was all crack?
G. THORNTON: Hell, no. I'm not comfortable with all that.
WEIR: Yeah?
G. THORNTON: Yeah, I'm not.
WEIR: Why not? You talk about it, it's pretty good testimony. G. THORNTON: Yeah. You're absolutely right, hold on. Give me a second, because I'm getting flustered right now.
WEIR: OK. That's cool. I mean, why dance around it?
G. THORNTON: You're right, but this is CNN.
(LAUGHTER)
G. THORNTON: You know.
WEIR: But people have to appreciate the journey. I mean, I don't think you're gonna get in trouble for talking about youthful indiscretions.
G. THORNTON: That's right. Come on, let's go.
WEIR: OK.
G. THORNTON: Let's go, let's go. Bill Weir, that's what's up.
WEIR: I mean, you know, speak the truth. What were you doing?
G. THORNTON: Well, you know, just like, you know, any young kid growing up and especially in the hood, you know, just wanting to have money. I remember serving one of -- one of my people. And the kids were asking their mom for food. And she told them that she didn't have any money yet. I knew the transaction that we had just made.
WEIR: She was giving their food money to you?
G. THORNTON: Yeah. She was.
WEIR: To buy a rock or two, right?
G. THORNTON: Yeah, she absolutely was, she absolutely was.
WEIR: And you understood it?
G. THORNTON: I understood it, I understood it what kept ringing in my head was they're gonna get it from somewhere, so I might as well be the one to get it. Because if I don't do it, somebody else is gonna get that money.
WEIR: Did you ever get arrested?
G. THORNTON: Never, never, never.
WEIR: Is that luck or smarts, or both?
G. THORNTON: Man, I think it has a lot to do with smarts.
WEIR: Gene would teach Terrance how to turn their life outside on those streets into rhymes and hooks, which eventually caught the ere of a friend named Pharrell.
T. THORNTON: Pharrell made the suggestion, like yo, you know, maybe I should be a group man, like that would be dope. You don't like writing three whole verses anyway. You know, dude tell my brother that. So that split the work in half and made it faster.
WEIR: So, Terrence became Pusher T, and Gene became Malice, and together as clips, they quickly became the new favorites of hip hop Illuminati. First album, huge. And soon they were opening all the big names.
T. THORNTON: We did 50 cents. We did the Black Eyed Peas, Jay-Z, Nelly, NERD.
WEIR: Kid on a scooter comes up to you says, I'm a huge fan, turns out to be Kanye West.
G. THORNTON: Kanye west, you know.
WEIR: American dream, baby. Cash, car, and back stage girls, but for Gene, the more they got, the emptier he felt.
G. THORNTON: I was Porsche, no shirt, big chain, pulling up at the light. You don't want your girl looking over me at the light. You don't want that. You know what I'm saying? And that is what people saw. But at the end of the day I personally felt misery.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
WEIR: And when we come back I'll tell you why Malice felt so miserable. And the drastic steps he did to fix it and how that choice changed their fortunes for better and worse.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
G. THORNTON: Sometimes you would try something, and you're not sure if it was good and you basically listening for opinions and what people think about, not with me, not with rapping. Like if you didn't like my rap, I thought something was wrong with you.
WEIR: As they move from pushing crack to selling rap, the Thornton brothers were never short on self-confidence, and as clips became hip- hop's first big selling act, the money and the girls, the whole life style should have been the delicious spoils of their talent, but for the other brother Gene, better known as Malice, it just made him miserable.
G. THORNTON: It was more than just feeling dirty about it, you just don't feel dirty for no reason, because if it was good, then I wouldn't feel dirty about it, you know.
WEIR: So, through their rise, Gene was married to his high school sweetheart and caving to the temptations of the road filled him with guilt and fear that this life-style could kill him. So, in a moment of despair he turned to his bible and rekindled a long dormant faith.
G. THORNTON: Some people call it a come to Jesus moment, but this is a real transformation, when I think about my infidelities, you know, out on the road being a married man, when I think about the heartbreak that I caused my wife, that I caused myself. When I think about her forgiveness, how the word of God repaired us and nothing else, when I think about that, to me it is a no-brainer. I can't return to that life-style and that kind of way. I don't have a choice.
WEIR: But for Clipse that choice could not have come at a worse time. The tenth anniversary of their first album was coming up. Fans were clamoring a tour. But malice told his little brother he couldn't rap about cocaine anymore. Couldn't spit curse words anymore.
T. THORNTON: I want to say somewhere from 25 to 30 shows that people just -- who wanted us to do it. Come to the city. And perform the whole album in its entirety. And he was not interested.
WEIR: Hm.
T. THORTON: At all. So, that is when I knew it was real.
WEIR: He picked Jesus over you?
T. THORTON: Yes, he did. Yes, he did.
WEIR: And then Yeezus better know as Kanye West picked him. His rap on the epic single Runaway was part of a solo single career explosion, complete with all the perks. It's cool in here, like is this, what your closet looks like?
T. THORTON: For sure, my closet definitely looks like this. Hard core. Still, selling vintage -- still, like, I mean this right here is...
WEIR: 124 bucks? Somebody should rap about that. He has high-end fashion boutiques and a clothing line.
T. THORTON: Young enough to still sell dope but old enough I know better. When they say 42 for the black powder I know better.
WEIR: When he is not appearing on The Tonight Show he is consulting for the popular urban magazine mass appeal.
T. THORTON: I'm an investor, I'm also a -- you know, I bring ideas and project. We're working on a sneaker movie. South by southwest, we love you. South by southwest, like every year we do something at south by southwest, there are tons of things. And I think that you know, being a bright businessman is like man that is way cooler than any chain, way cooler than any watch, way cooler than any car.
WEIR: That reputation.
T. THORTON: That for sure.
WEIR: Yeah.
T. THORTON: Being on CNN. Way cooler -- listen to me, let me tell you something, being on CNN is way cooler than any watch. Any chain.
WEIR: Tell your friends.
T. THORTON: Any car. You know, that is true.
WEIR: But here is the uncomfortable question, could Pusha T have all of this without glamorizing the most destructive parts of urban America? Would he still be a hero if his name was not Pusha? But, you know there are kids growing up in this neighborhood see you as the American dream.
T. THORTON: Yeah.
WEIR: And part of the rise of that ladder was dealing coke for how over long, so you get that record contract, right?
T. THORTON: Right, right.
WEIR: But is that healthy? I mean, it's sustainable for generation after generation?
T. THORTON: I personally, like, man, I came up on the same music. You know what I'm saying? I came up on the same music and I can say to this day music has never made me do anything. Music itself has never made me do anything.
WEIR: I guess my point is if you hadn't dealt coke, well, you probably wouldn't have this car. You wouldn't have your clothing line, right? That is part of the whole mystique.
T. THORTON: No, if I wasn't a great rapper, I wouldn't have this car and I wouldn't have this clothing line.
WEIR: OK.
T. THORTON: I'm a great rapper first.
WEIR: But when his brother looks back on the music and revisits the spot they used to push crack, he has a much different take.
G. THORTON: I feel like hip-hop personally is the only genre that eats its babies. Now, you can take a white kid or the white generation, they're enjoying hip-hop, eating it up and paying for it and loving it. But they're not killing each other.
WEIR: He changed his stage name from Malice to No Malice. And now, raps about redemption. Even he's not sure what to call this. Is it Christian rap? Was it Gospel?
G. THORTON: All I know is that my music that I put out, you know, it was just no cursing in it. You know. So, I guess if I ain't cursing or killing somebody, no one wants to call it rap any more. Hey, we stumbled on something right there.
WEIR: But no denying, the crowds and pay checks are much smaller. There's no temptation at all to get back out there? A quick reunion would be massive. The money you could make. G. THORTON: Brother, brother. That money, that money at one time was out for my life. I -- they can't invent a dollar amount to get me out there, to tell, look at what's at stake. I can't tell anybody anything about selling drugs anymore. I can't even make it look cool anymore. There are people that are dying. Look at what's going on in Chicago. And like I said earlier, your race can enjoy it. And laugh and joke and enjoy it. And then get back it business. I have a message, and I have to share it. I have to share it. Then after that, you do what you want with it. You know, you do what you want with it. But I've got enough blood on my hand, enough.
WEIR: What an amazing story. But do you have a hunch maybe deep down that the clips will get back together in some form some day? What would have to happen?
T. THORTON: I don't have a hunch, but I -- I hope and pray that that happens. I hope and pray that that happens, in one way and one way or another.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
WEIR: Pusha T and No Malice are still close, respect each other, but neither was tried to convert the other to its point of view. I want to thank them both for their access and honesty. I would love to hear what you think about this piece, whether I have any other stories I should tell just like it. I'm on Twitter, @billweircnn.
When we come back, the most entertaining political debate you will see all year, guaranteed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WEIR: We are many months away from the mid terms. But when it comes to entertaining debates, I will bet you a mortgage payment, nothing will top what happened last night in Boise, as candidates for the governor of Idaho squared off, and it started predictably enough with an opening statement by the incumbent, Butch Otter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. C.L. "BUTCH" OTTER, IDAHO: We have a clear path before us, and I'm committed to following that path.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, governor otter. Senator Fulcher, your opening remarks.
SEN. RUSS FULCHER, IDAHO STATE SENATE: I'm Russ Fulcher, I'm a fourth generation Idaho from a dairy farmer in Meridian.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEIR: All right, good to meet you. Those are the two main politicians leading the polls, but to the credit of Governor Otter, he insisted that all candidates get to debate. Including a gentleman named Walt Bayes. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALT BAYES: I stand on principles. I went to jail for home schooling, and my kids turned out pretty good. I had four sons that were rodeo cowboys and one daughter.
WEIR: And then, there is Mr. Harley brown.
HARLEY BROWN: You know, I was filling out my taxes a couple of months ago and I thought to myself, thank God we don't get all the government that we pay for. Anyhow, I got out of the service, and several years later, I was at the low point of my life. I mean, things were bad. And I cried out to God. I said, God, how about put me back on active duty and make me a battalion commander. Long story, short, he said, no, son, I got a higher rank for you. I'm making you commander-in-chief. And I staggered on his promise. I'll get into that more with you. Don't think I'm crazy, because I'm not.
WEIR: No, no, no, we would never. Please, good on.
BROWN: I don't like political correctness. Can I say this? It sucks. It's bondage. And I'm about as politically correct as your proverbial turd in a punch bowl.
WEIR: That is when I knew this would be really good. They debated Obama care, and federal land use and wolf hunting and gay marriage, which seemed to form a consensus against.
FULCHER: When you start redefining marriages, you start impacting other laws throughout the state.
OTTER: When you redefine marriage, you redefine the whole idea of family.
BAYES: And like what I've said, the man, they have been the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another.
WEIR: So, Walt, reading from a very, very tiny bible. And next up, Harley Punch Bowl Brown. So, let's see where he comes down on gay marriage.
BROWN: I used to drive taxis in Boise for 20 years at night. And I picked up my fair share of the gay community. And they have true love for one another. I'm telling you, they love each other more than I love my motorcycle. And you know, they are just as American as a Medal of Honor winner.
WEIR: Did not see that coming. Bravo.
BROWN: You had your choice, folks. A cowboy, a (inaudible), a biker, or a normal guy. Take your pick. Thank you very much. We're leaving it up to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEIR: So, there you go. We have a new version of the village people. And they live if Idaho. I'm Bill Weir, that's all for us tonight. CNN'S special report with Don Lemon. Starts now.
