Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

U.S. Says China Stealing U.S. Industrial Secrets. New Report Says Obama Knew About V.A. Problems; Jill Abramson Speaks About "New York Times" Firing; 2 Nigerian Informants Talk about Boko Haram; Hologram Brings Michael Jackson Performance to Life

Aired May 19, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And in one case, Brooke, U.S. officials allege the hackers stole trade secrets of a nuclear power plant while negotiations were underway between Westinghouse, one of the alleged U.S. victims, and a Chinese company. And, Brooke, officials say these Chinese hackers ultimately drained the economy of at least billions of dollars and put people out of jobs.

These are the first charges against Chinese state officials, officials have been -- spent the last few years stockpiling evidence against these hackers and what cyber experts say is a painstaking and sensitive process and a huge deal. They called this problem rampant. And we could see some similar cases just like it -- Brooke?

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You say billions. We're hearing trillions, as well of dollars of theft.

Pamela Brown, thank you so much, in Washington.

Also, we're asking this question: Did President Obama know there were problems at the Veteran Affairs Administration even before he took the oath of office? A new report in "The Washington Times" says officials told the president's team that V.A. hospitals were reporting inaccurate wait times as far back as 2008. And not only that, he was also told that those hospitals could be delaying or even denying care to veterans. The president is already facing pressure to fire V.A. Secretary Eric Shinseki who testified last week on Capitol Hill, but this could put him right in the center of the scandal.

And CNN senior investigative correspondent, Drew Griffin, broke the story.

You were there at the hearings last week. The obvious question is, how do they fix this?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is a big problem. There's two problems here. One is a scandal, one is a tragedy. The scandal is what's being investigated all across the country with secret lists, wait times being actually hidden, falsification of data. That is a scandal that they are trying to contain politically right now. The tragedy, Brooke, is --

BALDWIN: Deaths. GRIFFIN: -- the delayed care that has led to deaths and adverse outcomes, that's being harmed, has been so widespread for more than a decade now. 23 deaths across nine different states is what the V.A. admits to. Many believe many more of that.

So how do you contain this problem politically? You try to get ahead of the scandal, nip it in the bud and fire a few people, maybe move on. The bigger question is, how do we improve the treatment for our vets?

BALDWIN: So many people are calling for the firing, resignation, what have you, of Shinseki himself. I know that you keep asking for interviews and are getting crickets in return. We saw, I think, it was a Friday when Petzel, the undersecretary of health, will be resigning instead of retiring later this year. That's the beginning. Do you foresee any more fallout?

GRIFFIN: I think there has to be, but we'll have to wait for the investigations to figure out who knew what and when. And if somebody like Eric Shinseki did not know, why not? Did he have no command of his understaff or were they not telling him?

And I think the same thing goes for the president. Was the president truly aware of what was going on? Just a few minutes ago, Jay Carney said the president learned of the Phoenix V.A. secret wait list scandal from watching CNN.

BALDWIN: From watching your report --

(CROSSTALK)

GRIFFIN: That's right. So they did not know, apparently, if we're taking Jay Carney at his word, about the Phoenix scandal. But the president did know there was a wait list issue. He campaigned about denied and delayed care in 2007, that he would end it. It hasn't ended. And that's why I call that part of it the tragedy.

BALDWIN: I hope Shinseki calls you back.

GRIFFIN: I'm right here.

BALDWIN: Drew Griffin, thank you. Excellent work, you and your team.

The woman at the center of a firestorm made her very first public appearance a couple of hours ago. You may not recognize her face, perhaps not, but her firing from the "New York Times" certainly sparked a debate about women in the workplace. And what she said today about her former employer and why people across the country were watching. We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You may not know her name, but the firing sparked a debate that is all too familiar. Are women business leaders held to different standards than men? Jill Abramson just lost her job as executive editor of the "New York Times." And just this morning, she turned this low point into her -- in her career into a highlight of her commencement speech there at Wake Forest University.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JILL ABRAMSON, FORMER EXECUTIVE EDITOR, NEW YORK TIMES: Sure, losing a job you love hurts, but the work I revered, journalism that holds powerful institutions and people accountable, is work what makes our democracy so resilient.

Last night, after I arrived, they know that I have that some tattoos and one of them asked me, "Are you going to get that "Times" "T" that you have tattooed on your back removed"? Not a chance.

What's next for me? I don't know. So I'm in exactly the same boat as many of you!

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

ABRAMSON: And like you, I'm a little scared, but also excited.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: There she was speaking this morning.

According to some reports, this firing was over Abramson's push to get the same pay as her male predecessor. But in this unprecedented move, her boss at the "Times" released a statement saying gender had nothing to do with her termination, that her salary was higher than the man she replaced. Quoting publisher, Arthur Sulzberger Jr: Quote, "During her tenure, I heard about a series of issues from here newsroom colleagues, both women and men, including arbitrary decision making, failure to consult and bring her colleagues with her, inadequate communication, and the public mistreatment of colleagues." He went on, "Ultimately, I concluded she had lost the support of her masthead colleagues and could not win it back."

Let's talk about that, shall we?

Joining me now, senior media correspondent, host of CNN's "Reliable Sources," Brian Stelter, who used to work at the "Times;" and also writer and founder of The Li.st, Rachel Sklar.

Welcome to both of you.

Brian, I have to begin with you. Jill Abramson was your boss and here you are covering media. You're wearing two hats for us right now. I'd like to go back first to her speech this morning at Wake Forest. I've been reading a lot of the tweets from her daughter and on Instagram. And ahead of time, her daughter put on Instagram that her mother would take the #highroad. But she surprised us, in the degree in which she did address this firing. What did you make of the speech?

BRIAN STELTER, SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: She surprised me. I thought she would make a subtle reference and move on. But she talked at length about resilience and it was a wonderful message. She also said it was the honor of her life to lead the "New York Times" newsroom and she said she'll stay in journalism. It sounded like she'll stay in some capacity so I'm curious what her next job will be now.

BALDWIN: So many people are.

Rachel, I imagine that includes you. You've been atwitter over this one since the beginning. I've been following you. For me, this story is not about the machinations of the "New York Times," the hierarchy, et cetera, it's about women, it's about positions of power, it's about leadership. And you wrote this arguing that she was offered, quote, "Much lower tolerance, was on a much shorter leash, the glass cliff is real." Explain what you mean by that.

RACHEL SKLAR, WRITER & ENTREPRENEUR, THE LI.ST: Well, I think that whatever happened at the "New York Times" and whatever faults Jill Abramson may have had as managing editor, or editor-in-chief, rather, executive editor, that's the proper title -- and she may have lost the confidence of the masthead, that may be true. But there is a definite double standard applied to women in power.

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

SKLAR: Well, for example, the report that she was brusque and uncaring and the arbitrary decision making. When I was listening to that statement, I was realizing, like, have you ever heard about a man being deposed for arbitrary decision making and failing to consult colleagues when the buck stops with that person? That is not usually what CEOs are deposed for, but we saw that that was the language again and again used to describe Jill Abramson. Is that she didn't talk to people or she was hard to read, that people felt that she wasn't as nice to them as they could be and it's just -- that was very out of step with the sort of classic exec editor personality at the "New York Times." And, indeed, the treatment that she received at the hands of Arthur Sulzberger was very different than the last extremely brusque and sort of like favoritism showing editor -- exec editor of the "New York Times," which was Howell Raines. That's not the say Arthur Sulzberger may not have learned his lesson and learned to act more decisively this time. It just means that when you're operating from the assumption that it's a big deal to have the first female exec editor leading the "New York Times" and she had a pretty good tenure. She won eight Pulitzers. The newsroom -- you know, the paper was doing well business-wise. To have had such an abrupt and really difficult firing, that's a little bit much.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Both you and David Carr of the "Times" describe this abrupt firing as "Game of Thrones-esque." David Carr said, quote, "When Sulzberger stood up in a hastily called meeting in the newsroom where we usually gather to celebrate the Pulitzers and said Jill was out, we all just looked at one another. How did our workplace become a particularly bloody episode of 'Game of Thrones'?"

Now -- STELTER: There's a couple reasons why. One is that apparently Sulzberger tried to ease her way out and she wouldn't go quietly.

BALDWIN: She was going to fight it.

STELTER: She chose not to pretend she would step down. I respect that. Having to pretend you want to leave is a tough thing sometimes. But she chose to make this get ugly.

BALDWIN: So because of that choice, perhaps, perhaps.

But here's my real question because if we're talking about, like, you know equality in the workplace here in 2014, Rachel, to you, let's say the firing 100 percent had merit, that she really was not the boss the times employees need, when will we not be talking about the firing on CNN or national news? When will this not make news about women in high places fired?

SKLAR: When it's commonplace to see women ascend to the very top of organizations such as this. And the practical matter is that it is not commonplace. And further more, the data also shows that women tend to ascend -- they tend to be green lit in times of real need and when there's a real difficulty, and so that makes it much harder for them to succeed and much quicker for the plug to be pulled on them when they don't.

I would take issue, though, with the characterization of her as having made this decision to not go quietly. I think that if, indeed, Arthur Sulzberger was aware of these problems and was having second thoughts about her and all of that, then a wise and considered leader with foresight would have actually looked ahead and really thought about how to execute on this plan in a far-reaching way and plan to do this in a -- I mean, this essentially was Arthur Sulzberger's call, and it was his call to do in an abrupt manner. So I'm not say that he might not have felt justified in so doing and that there's a lot going on here. All I'm saying is that this has been a total mess.

STELTER: We can all agree on that.

BALDWIN: OK, we can agree. And we can agree this is about Jill Abramson and we're all wondering where she ends up.

Rachel Sklar and Brian Stelter, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

STELTER: Thank you.

SKLAR: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, an exclusive look inside a terror group. CNN talked to two men working as government informants providing information about Boko Haram. What they reveal about the group that kidnapped almost 300 school girls in Nigeria.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As African and Western nations met at a summit over the weekend calling for war on Boko Haram, the international effort to "Bring Back Our Girls" continues to gain traction, taking a role at the Cannes Film Festival. Recognize these faces? Actors, including Sylvester Stallone, Harrison Ford, displaying the message for the world to see. Actress Salma Hayek holding up a similar sign as she walked the red carpet.

Despite international calls for change, little is actually known about the inner workings of this Islamist terror group responsible, Boko Haram.

CNN senior correspondent, Arwa Damon, talked to two men who are working as informants, providing information on the group responsible for kidnapping nearly 300 Nigerian schoolgirls.

I should tell you that the men's voices in this piece have been altered to protect their identities.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We meet in a safe house. Just speaking to us could cost them their lives, already at risk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the only way for our children and our future.

BORGER: Mohammad and Osama -- not these two men's real name -- are government informants on the feared terrorist group Boko Haram. They have seen the group's influence spread and lure in their friends.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After convince you, they take you. Once you move to their training camp, that is the end. You won't come back again.

DAMON: Recruiting from among the poor who tend to make up their rank- and-file fighters, and drawing in the educated, trained in explosives.

(on camera): The two informants we met described their links to Boko Haram as being to midlevel fighters. They're not from the same state where more than 200 schoolgirls were kidnapped. That is here, Borno State. This is the capitol where Boko Haram's radical ideology was born.

(voice-over): Unchecked by the government, the group grew more violent and ruthless, kidnappings becoming common.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take them to the bush and force them to join or kill you.

DAMON: The informants have heard of shadowy links to al Qaeda. Their friends who joined trained in Sudan and Somalia. They claim to know exactly where Boko Haram's camps are in their area, but for the most part they say the government has failed to act. Similar to the accusations that Nigerian forces were warned in advance about the attack. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will use them. They will use them to negotiate with the government about those of their members that have been detained by the government or to use them as human shields.

DAMON: They've seen their friends slaughtered and they know the group will show no mercy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: And here she is, Arwa Damon, joining us live from Nigeria.

Arwa, it's stunning that those two men -- you got these men to talk to you. Do we have any idea how close they are in determining where these girls are?

DAMON: That's the problem, Brooke. It seems as if the authorities really don't at this stage. Now, the Nigerian government has said that it has beefed up its aerial surveillance. There were those talks that you're mentioning earlier that took place over the week end that the U.S. was attending as well. America being quite vague, though, in its rhetoric as to how much cooperation, how much intelligence sharing actually exists and then one also must look at the terrain. The forests among many locations where the girls could be. Other similarly difficult to navigate parts of the country they could possibly even be split up into smaller groups. But that's what's so horrifying and so difficult for so many people to grasp is this notion that these girls have been missing for five weeks and there is still no concrete evidence or intelligence as to where they may be.

BALDWIN: Thank you for shining the light and having certain voices being heard.

Arwa Damon, excellent reporting from Nigeria.

And, listen, we've been talking about these girls in Nigeria for weeks, but there are girls around the world who are not given a fair chance to get an education. If you would like to learn more, go to CNN.com/impact.

Coming up, a major development in the search for missing flight 370. Remember this Inmarsat data? That's the information used to calculate the search area for that missing plane. Well, a Malaysian official now says that data could soon be made public. Our experts explain what that could mean for the search.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Last night's Billboard Awards, everyone is raving about this one performance that was kind of surreal, kind of creepy, depending on who you ask, because it seemed to very real. The late king of pop, Michael Jackson, singing and dancing to a track off his posthumous album "Xscape" via hologram. Even in death, M.J. reminded fans why his artistry will forever live on.

In case you missed it, roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So there he was via hologram. The crowd was on fire, in awe. Some people even cried. Was it cool? Was it creepy?

Entertainment correspondent, Nischelle Turner, is joining me.

And, I mean, honestly, looking at it, I don't think it really does him justice. I mean, it's pretty cool but -- I don't think it does.

NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: I said the same thing. I said the same thing. I've seen better holograms and Michael Jackson is such an amazing performer that I don't think a hologram can do him justice. I think it had elements of both creepy and cool and that makes for good TV. The moves were eerie, but they were accurate. And really I couldn't take my eyes on the screen.

BALDWIN: How did they pull it off? I think of Tupac at Coachella. Is it the same sort of thing?

TURNER: I wish I knew every detail. They're trying to keep some mystery to this. They are telling a little bit of how this was done, though. They say the performance was the result of six months of planning and filming. They brought in some brothers who are long time associates of Michael Jackson. They came in to choreograph Michael Jackson's moves and it was a bit of old and new technology.

We've seen these before, and I know you're a big music lover so you know about the Tupac hologram in 2012 at Coachella, and Elvis in recent years. I think it's interesting, though, it seems to me only the greats have been made into holograms, Elvis, Tupac, Michael Jackson, so in good company.

BALDWIN: In good company. Obviously, the Michael Jackson estate gave the green light. Still, it makes you wonder. Would you have said OK? Thoughts to ponder, I suppose, Nischelle Turner.

TURNER: That's a really good question.

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Who knows? We'll never know I suppose.

But, Nischelle Turner, appreciate it.

Got to run because we need to start the next hour here.

Roll it.