Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Inside the Mind of the Santa Barbara Killer
Aired May 27, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Isla Vista, California. The virgin killer intended to slay his 6-year-old stepbrother, whom he adored, because he feared the child would grow up to be more popular with girls than him and plotted to stab his stepmother, as well? This after he murdered six in and around a sorority house and on the streets of Del Camino Drive. (sic)
Bombshell tonight. We uncover the truth, the truth behind the demented mind of the self-proclaimed social outcast. While Elliot Rodger lived in the lap of luxury, his father a director on the wildly popular "Hunger Games" movie, he wanted for nothing. He had designer clothes, a brand-new black BMW, $300 sunglasses, even a private Katy Perry concert, anything money could buy. But it never brought him happiness or the single thing he seemed to want the most, sex.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELLIOT RODGER: Tomorrow is the day of retribution.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White male, 20 years old.
RODGER: The day in which I will have my revenge against humanity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shot fired. Shots fired.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) multiple gunshot victims.
RODGER: Against all of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to Torrance, California, a young dad of three, outside working on his car, comes in to find his three little daughters dead in bed with Mommy, clutching a knife. Mommy, the mom of three, Carol Coronado, released from the hospital, now in the jailed unit of a county hospital. Three counts of murder now await her. New details emerging. In the last hours, we discover killer mom tried to kill her own mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can hear my nieces crying and crying in the background.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say in addition to killing her children, Carol Coronado also attempted to kill her own mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, Nothing. I`m tired. I`m exhausted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three young children dead inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to Dallas. Mommy, high on marijuana, weed, pot, tries to drown two little girls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It basically said that their mother tried to drown them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police records show she admitted to smoking marijuana laced with PCP. Her 6-year-old daughter said her mother told them, We were fixing to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight. Live to Isla Vista, California. The so-called virgin killer actually intended to murder his 6-year-old little stepmother, whom he adored? Why? Because he feared the boy would grow up to be more popular with girls than him. He also plots to stab his stepmother to death, as well. This after he murdered six in and around a sorority house and on the streets of Del Camino Drive.
We uncover the truth tonight, the truth behind the demented mind of the self-proclaimed social outcast. While Elliot Rodger lived in the lap of luxury, his father a director on "Hunger Games," he wanted for nothing. He had designer clothes, a brand-new black BMW, $300 sunglasses, even a private Katy Perry concert, anything money could buy. It never brought him happiness, or apparently, the single thing he seemed to want the very most, sex.
Straight out to CNN digital reporter Alan Duke. Alan, all of this happened seemingly so quickly, but the planning process started years ago. If you look in his journals, this goes back years, where he started planning and plotting to kill people because he hated women.
ALAN DUKE, CNN DIGITAL REPORTER: Yes. He was very uncomfortable with women, and he was very jealous of anyone who had a woman, anyone who had a girlfriend, because he said he never thought he could.
And let me -- let me correct something that I think is a misconception about this man. He did not live in the lap of luxury, Nancy. I have dug into it. What I found out, in fact, the last apartment where he lived in Los Angeles wasn`t very nice at all. I was shocked it find it was the same building where my daughter, his age, lived.
He wanted luxury. He went on this plan, this day of retribution starting a couple of years ago because he desired to be wealthy. He was playing the Mega-Millions lottery, driving to Arizona to buy Powerball tickets because he thought wealth would be his only way of ever finding happiness.
He did not have it. In fact, he was from a broken home. He had the clothes and the sunglasses because he wasn`t really going to school. Instead, he was spending that money on the clothes that his parents were sending him.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait!
DUKE: He was a deception in that way.
GRACE: I`m looking at the home worth a million dollars. And I mean, maybe we think of luxury in a different way.
DUKE: He didn`t live there.
GRACE: Yes, I...
DUKE: He didn`t live there.
GRACE: Right. But this is his family.
DUKE: His stepmother kicked him out.
GRACE: Right. I`m looking at the mansion where his family lives, and it`s pretty incredible. But I guess it`s just a matter of interpretation. To me, when you...
DUKE: His dad lost his money and was almost bankrupt from making a documentary that fell on its face. And he was resentful about that. He was resentful toward his mom because he wanted his mom to marry somebody very wealthy so he could have money. And he said his mother was selfish for not doing that. He didn`t have luxury. He wanted it, and that is, I think, part of what his anger was.
GRACE: That`s an interesting take. Alan Duke is joining us, CNN digital reporter, and taking your calls.
Now, many of us would believe that he was living in the lap of luxury, even though Alan tells us his apartment was not as nice as what many people thought. But when you see the mansion his family lived in and the brand- new black BMW, the $300 sunglasses, the private concert with Katy Perry, where he flew to the concert in a private chartered jet, to me, that reeks of money.
But you know what? I want to show you the crime scenes before we get to the why. I want to show you what happened. There are multiple crime scenes -- a deli. There you see closed-circuit TV video of what happened. Not only that, in and around a sorority house, out on the streets.
Tonight, inside the mind of the virgin killer. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODGER: Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which I will have my revenge against humanity.
On the day of retribution, I am going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB. And I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up blonde (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I see inside there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, he seems very, very articulate in that. By the way, that`s video from YouTube. And he was releasing these YouTube videos. And it got his family so upset, they actually called police. I believe this was April 30th. Wasn`t that right?
Out to Tyler Hayden, news editor at "Santa Barbara Independent." Thanks for being with us, Tyler. And many people are saying, coulda, shoulda, woulda, that it`s the police`s fault. The family saw this YouTube rambling, read his manifesto about how he wanted to kill women, that women need to be brought to their knees, and he wanted revenge on them. They call police. Police go to the home.
What happened, Tyler?
TYLER HAYDEN, "SANTA BARBARA INDEPENDENT" (via telephone): Apparently, a few deputies showed up at his door in Isla Vista and found him to be pretty articulate and well-spoken. They said he was a little bit quiet and shy. And he assured them that he was fine, that his mother was maybe just a little overly worried about him, being a little overly protective. And he convinced the deputies that there was nothing to be concerned about.
Apparently, the deputies got his mother on the phone, the two of them talked, the suspect and his mom, and then cleared the call. So nothing that he said or nothing that they saw about him or about his demeanor, you know, triggered sort of any kind of response that would prompt them to search his apartment or go through his belongings. They assumed that it was just kind of a family domestic issue, and then moved on from there.
But obviously, a lot of people are wondering if that was, in fact, a missed opportunity to find some of these videos, these manifestos, as well as, you know, the guns that he had in his possession at the time.
GRACE: To look at this guy and imagine one person leaving behind such a wake of pain -- you know, today, tonight, the police taking the heat, many saying that they could have prevented the whole thing when they went for that security check.
Joining me right now, former police commander Woodrow Tripp. Woody, what about it?
WOODROW TRIPP, FMR. POLICE COMMANDER: I heard the statement of, "a few showed up." Actually, six showed up. They were quite serious about what they did when they showed up.
But we have to remember that this person posed no threat verbally or physically to anyone else, nor himself, nor did he verbalize that in any way. You know, law enforcement can only do so much and they`re hampered by the laws that we have in this country. So I think the missed opportunities here were from family members.
GRACE: That is a really good point.
Unleash the lawyers, Shireen Hormozdi, Atlanta, and high-profile lawyer Yale Galanter joining me tonight. Yale, you know -- and I wish the police had gone in, too. I wish they had seen the manifesto, seen the YouTube postings. But Yale, you know, if police had gone in there, this kid would have sued their pants off. They would have been violating police policy. They`d be in all sort of trouble.
We don`t want the police barging into our home when we answer the door. I assume we all agree on that. And now police are the ones taking heat for this. This is not their fault!
YALE GALANTER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I agree. The police did their investigation. They didn`t have probable cause to enter the home. They didn`t believe anybody`s safety was in danger, his or anyone else`s. This is definitely family issue. I mean, this family had to have these signals. You know, you can Baker Act (ph) somebody...
GRACE: Well, they did. But you know what?
GALANTER: ... you can commit somebody...
GRACE: You know what, Yale?
GALANTER: ... you can -- you can force...
GRACE: Let me see Yale one more time, please.
GALANTER: ... somebody to continue to get medical help.
GRACE: But another thing...
GALANTER: And they didn`t do (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: ... about the family, Yale...
GALANTER: It`s a shame.
GRACE: And yes, I agree with you that it`s not the police`s fault, but -- but, you know, you can love somebody so much that you don`t want to see what`s wrong with them. You know how love can be blind? I don`t think it is anyone`s fault what happened.
Very quickly, joining me, Alan Shifman, a family friend and former lawyer for the Rodger family. Alan, thank you for being with us.
ALAN SHIFMAN, FAMILY FRIEND AND FORMER RODGER FAMILY ATTORNEY (via telephone): My pleasure.
GRACE: Alan, I know the family is devastated. I know that you had a lot of contact with the family. What can you tell us about Elliot?
SHIFMAN: Well, you know, Elliot, you know, he was seeing several therapists at this time. And although I have never met the -- met the person, you know, there was definitely a proactive effort on the family to help this child. You know, I heard some of the -- some of the comments here about, you know, whether it was the police`s fault, whether it`s, you know -- whosever fault, whether the parents did enough or didn`t do enough. I think the focus really needs to -- really, really needs to focus on the system, the mental health system and this welfare check system.
GRACE: Well, there is the possibility, Alan, that they could have had him, as many people say, Baker Acted. They could have. Remember -- I mean, Britney Spears perfect example. When she was going off the rails, her family put her in treatment, and look at her now.
SHIFMAN: You know -- you know, perhaps what we need to do is educate parents, OK, to -- to -- so that they know what their remedies are. How do you know that the Rodger family knew that that was a potential -- that was one of the remedies?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the 22-year-old Santa Barbara college student was shooting at will, exacting the revenge he`d been planning, police say, for at least a year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He, like, lifted up a little black pistol. And I just thought it was, like, an airsoft (ph) gun or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A group of six, seven, eight people eating (INAUDIBLE) and (INAUDIBLE) front of it, and that was (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) ambulance for another gunshot wound at 6553 Pardall, IV Deli Mart, Code 3. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a girl right over here, and she was really, really struggling. You could tell she was just barely able to move her eyes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: In the aftermath of this horrific crime, everyone asking why. Why did a guy, this guy you`re looking at, Elliot Rodger, who according to many of us, lived in the lap of luxury compared to what most Americans have, his father a director on "The Hunger Games" -- why would he unleash this terror in and around a sorority house and on the streets after killing his own roommates and then wandering into a deli?
With me is Sam Hassan, whose family owns the Isla Vista deli market, who knows Elliot Rodger. What was Elliot like in your encounters with him, Sam? And thank you for being with us.
SAM HASSAN, FAMILY OWNS DELI MART (via telephone): Thank you. Well, he was a daily customer. He would come in and order his food, come in and pay for it, say hi. He was very polite, very nice smile. He was thankful to the people in the kitchen to prepare his food and thankful to the cashier. And he would leave and say good-bye. So we almost saw him on a daily basis. He was very quiet, very nice and nice smile...
GRACE: I`m very interested -- I`m very interested, Sam, in his behavior. For instance, you`re seeing on the left of your screen the video we obtained of the closed-circuit TV video when the incident occurred. I`m interested, Sam Hassan, the owner of the deli there -- his behave when he would come in (INAUDIBLE) for instance, always order the same thing, always do the same thing. Was there anything...
HASSAN: No, not really the same...
GRACE: ... unusual about his behavior?
HASSAN: ... but most of the time, he would order a burger and a Coke. But he would order the sandwiches sometimes, yes.
GRACE: So he deviated behavior. Nothing unusual, correct?
HASSAN: Never. Never. He was really, really polite guy. You know, as a parent, I am -- you know, I wouldn`t mind just go and hug him because he was so nice, so polite. He was quiet. He wouldn`t...
GRACE: Well, you know, if he had good -- good...
HASSAN: ... talk much. He would just nod and smile and leave. That`s about it.
GRACE: It seems as if he had good encounters in your deli. I mean, he went there every single day, practically.
HASSAN: That is correct. That`s -- that`s why I was...
GRACE: Why would he unleash a hail of bullets there?
HASSAN: ... surprised that he can in and he shot Mr. Martinez in our store. I think because he probably saw a lot of crowd and he saw a lot of girls there coming in to buy food from us.
GRACE: Oh! So he saw girls there.
Justin Freiman, what`s stumping me now -- obviously, that`s why he picked the deli because he had actually made friends there, but there must have been girls there that wouldn`t speak to him.
Justin, what can you tell me about the stepmother and the 6-year-old little brother? Why did he want to kill his 6-year-old brother?
JUSTIN FREIMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Nancy, it always goes to the girls, it seems, because he was worried that his 6-year- old brother would become more popular than him with girls and that the stepmother felt the same way about it. So he wanted to kill both of them because somebody else couldn`t be more popular than him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The day of retribution, a plan Rodger outlined in a 137-page manifesto. Rodger wrote, "All of those beautiful girls I`ve desired so much in my life but can never have because they despise and loathe me, I will destroy."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "If only one girl had given me the chance, tried to get to know me, let me take her out on a date, none of this would have happened."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want you to look into the mind of Elliot Rodger. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODGER: I`ve never had any sex or anything like that. It`s such an injustice. I don`t know why you girls hate me so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That video is from YouTube, and those were some of the conflicting thoughts in Rodger`s head before he unleashed a hail of bullets around a sorority house, on the street, even in his deli that he would go to every single day.
You know, you mentioned something very important, Woody. With me, former police commander Woodrow Tripp. Many people say the parents didn`t know what was going on. They had no reason to think they should have him committed for treatment. Response?
TRIPP: Nancy, there was warning bells. There were fireworks going off in the spring of 2013, according to Elliot. He actually wrote that he showed a Web site to his parents, in fact, trying to convince them of how miserable he was as a result...
GRACE: You mean the Puahate (ph) Web site?
TRIPP: Puahate (ph).
GRACE: Where men get on and talk about how much they hate women.
Back to Tyler Hayden, news editor at "Santa Barbara Independent." Tyler, why did he target the places he targeted? For instance, the sorority house area? And the sorority sisters say they were all in there, and they heard loud and aggressive banging. And I think they were afraid to answer the door. Thank the Lord they had it locked. But he targeted that, the deli he visited every day. Why those spots?
HAYDEN: That`s a good question. My only response would be that he was familiar with those areas. In his manifesto video, he promises to target the sororities in Santa Barbara, and he actually picked one he thought was the most popular or had the best-looking women.
So I think he just had serious pent-up anger and aggression and rage against these places that he maybe tried to become a part of, but he felt rejected him. So it all came down to just sort of this self-loathing confusion and anger of not being part of these groups, these communities, these places that he desperately wanted to be. And so that`s my best guess.
GRACE: Well, another issue -- Alan Duke with us, CNN digital reporter. A whole `nother can of worms is how he got the guns. Of course, you have to have been committed, and they`ve got to find that record for them not to give you the gun.
But Alan, what do you make of his plan to kill, to stab his stepmother to death, and to kill his 6-year-old little brother?
DUKE: Yes, he was jealous of the half-brother, the 6-year-old, Jazz (ph). And he resented his stepmom because, you know, that expensive home you refer to -- he couldn`t step inside of it, really, because she banned him from it. He had to go and live with his mother, who as I said, lived in a very modest apartment. And so he wasn`t living in that lap of luxury.
And one more comment about the guns. If the cops, when they thought he might be suicidal -- why isn`t it routine when you`re checking on somebody reportedly suicidal to check the computer and see if they bought any weapons? They would have found out he had three guns inside his apartment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now we head to Torrance, California. A young father of three, outside working on the car, comes in to find his three little daughters dead in bed, Mommy with them in bed, clutching a knife. At this hour, we learn the mom of three, Carol Coronado, may have been sent to a jail hospital with armed guards. She will soon face three counts of murder. Now, we learn special circumstances having been added to those counts that could mean the death penalty in the state of California.
New details emerging. In the last hours, we also discover killer mom tried to kill her own mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her mother had killed the children inside the residence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The district attorney`s office has announced new charges against the mother accused of stabbing her 3 children to death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ages 3, 2 and 2 months.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say in addition to killing her children, Carol Coronado also attempted to kill her own mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Larry Altman joining us tonight with the Daily Breeze. Larry, first of all, had she been moved? Is she in a psych ward? Is she at the jail? Where is she, exactly?
LARRY ALTMAN: From what I can see on jail record, she is at county USC medical center which has a jail ward.
GRACE: Now, that`s what you told us you thought was going to happen. So county USC, what does that mean? Where is this?
ALTMAN: That`s in East Los Angeles. She originally was scheduled to go to court this morning but was not able to because of her medical situation.
GRACE: When you say medical situation, Larry, do you mean physical or mental? Because if she had a physical medical condition, that serious, I don`t think they would have taken her out of the hospital.
ALTMAN: Well, from what I know from last week, she had scratches and everything over her body. And a knife wound of some kind to the chest. I don`t think it was life threatening. But whatever it is, it is severe enough that they still had her hospitalized. But now she is in the jail part of the hospital. The other hospital she was in did not have a jail.
GRACE: Everyone, tonight we are learning that Carol Coronado, 30- year-old mom of three, we just had learned she has been moved out of the hospital. So her self-injuries are not serious enough to keep her in the hospital. Yet she was not in court today. This as we learn the district attorney has tacked on special circumstances to the three counts of murder. That sets the case up for a death penalty proceeding. But what can you tell us, Larry, from the Daily Breeze about her trying to kill her own mother?
ALTMAN: Well, don`t know exactly what she did. But we do know that her mother walked in on her and found her and the children, everyone all covered with blood, and did grab the knife away from her. So at some point in there, something happened that had led to an attempted murder charge. So far detectives aren`t saying.
GRACE: To Matt Zarrell, last we heard, she is still refusing to admit she killed her three children. What more do we know?
ZARRELL: Cops spoke to us today. They say they are speaking with Coronado. They won`t reveal the details of what exactly was said. They have not changed her position that since last week, she hasn`t admitted to any role in the killings.
GRACE: With me, Dr. Joy M. Carter, chief forensic pathologist Marion County, author of "I Speak for the Dead." Thank you for being with us. I`m just the JD. You`re the MD. But if she had a serious medical, physical situation, they would not have taken her out of the hospital. She would still be in the hospital today. Which leads me to believe her self- inflicted injuries were minor.
CARTER: Yes, I`d have to agree with you. If she still needed medical attention, she would still be in the medical facility. So it had to be something minor. They took care of it and released her back into the custody of law enforcement.
GRACE: Also with us tonight, clinical psychologist, Dr. Patricia Saunders. Patricia, weigh in.
SAUNDERS: My best guess would be that this is a case of postpartum psychosis, it`s very rare. Only 1 percent of women who have postpartum depression are psychotic.
GRACE: Whoa, back it up. If this is so rare, Patricia, then why are you assuming this is what it is?
SAUNDERS: She had three children within a three-year period. There was also an alleged report -- she was in the military very briefly and was discharged for an injury. Being briefly in the military raises big questions for a psychologist. Did she have a head injury? Was she acting bizarre? We don`t know. But psychologically, the trigger is often having babies too close together, to trigger this unusual condition.
GRACE: Can I say, Patricia, I appreciate what you`re saying, because handling two at one time, giving birth to twins, was -- it is very, very difficult, if you want it do it right. But Dr. Saunders, I typically agree with you, but just to assume because she killed her children and she gave birth in close proximity each to the other, that this is postpartum psychosis I think is quite a leap. As a matter of fact, I interviewed several people close to her, including her next door neighbor of over five years, who said that she interacted with the woman almost every day, and that she was extremely normal. She talked about the children. She played in the front yard. She was a very calm, had a very calm demeanor. And very interesting that -- hold on, Patricia, I will come back to you.
Unleash the lawyers. Yale Galanter and Shireen Hormozdi. Shireen, at first I was going with insanity here. But the fact that she called someone that day, that day, and out of the blue said, I`m going crazy. Where up until that point, there had been no treatment for mental illness, nothing, that day she calls someone and said, I`m going crazy. What about it?
HORMOZDI: That could have been a cry for help. She could be realizing she is about to break and she was reaching out for help by saying she was going crazy. She also called her sister-in-law and said she was extremely tired and fatigued, lending support to Patricia`s theory of postpartum psychosis here.
GRACE: Yale?
GALANTER: I don`t know whether it is postpartum psychosis or not, but I know this girl didn`t know right from wrong. So obviously there was an insanity, diminished capacity defense that is being set up here. Mothers don`t do this to children. Mothers don`t do this to their own mothers.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa, back it up. Yale, mothers do kill their children when they are not insane. But what makes me think that she may have been insane, is in other cases we see planning. Like Elliott Rodger, the one we just talked about, that ultimately shot himself. But look at others like Julie Schenecker, that we just covered, the trial. She planned that. She went and bought the gun. She wrote in her journals about the slaughters of her children. She was planning. Susan Smith.
GALANTER: These acts, Nancy, these acts are very, very rare. And they really go against our societal norms.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, very rare for a woman -- good point, Shireen. You and I talked about this off camera. I know you both have degrees out the ying yang. Let me go to Woody Tripp, who was a police commander. Woody, this is anecdotal, but for a woman defendant to be arrested buck naked is extremely unusual. They usually will not -- and I don`t care what it is, what the circumstance is, I don`t care who they killed, what bank they robbed, it does not matter, they will not get arrested that way. And also, Woody, the fact she did not -- there was no preplanning. I think this was like a kitchen knife. I think she went into a psychosis. I agree with Patricia Saunders.
TRIPP: In this case, I have to also. There is just a certain amount of modesty that`s just instilled in women in reference to clothing and things like that. Again, the spur of the moment, just very instantaneous type of crime. Absolutely.
GRACE: Another thing we`ve learned, to Matt Zarrell, is that the children`s funeral will be June 1 at Green Hills mortuary. And the funeral home, Green Hills, is so distraught for the family, they are actually paying for the funeral for the family. Is it June 1st for these children?
ZARRELL: Yes.
GRACE: Will the mother be allowed to go to the funeral, Matt?
ZARRELL: That I`m not sure. But I can tell you that the husband doesn`t want anyone throwing the book at her or condemning her to death. He wants her to get help.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And now to Dallas. Mommy high on weed, pot, marijuana, tries to drown her two little girls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors at the Rosemont apartments in South Dallas heard their screams and called police. Witnesses say that`s when Gardner`s son forced his way in. He ran out carrying his 4-year-old sister, soaking wet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This Dallas mother accused of trying to drown her children while high on pot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gardner told police she got upset because the children were asking for snacks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Norm Kent, the president of Normal, who wants -- that is the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. Norm? I thought you told me that when people are high on pot, that they don`t pose a threat. Here is a mother high on weed, who tries to murder, drown, her two children in the bathtub. That`s part of your claim that it should be legalized is that it mellows you out. What happened, Norm?
NORM KENT, PRESIDENT, NORML: Oh, my grandmother used to say half a truth is a whole lie. The clear evidence from the Dallas Police Department is that--
GRACE: I don`t even know what you`re talking about.
KENT: Oh, I will finish, Nancy. Oh, that pot was laced with PCP. That is a horse tranquilizer. No human being should be ingesting that in any manner, shape or form.
GRACE: And you`re going to personally vouch for all the pot that`s smoked all over the country that it`s not laced as well? Okay, that will be a cold day in h-e double l. Oh, hold on. Joe hold it, Norm. Joe Gomez, KRLD, what happened?
JOE GOMEZ, KRLD: Nancy, 35-year-old Sonya Gardner arrived at home with her two kids. Her neighbors say she looked out of it. 15 minutes after she walked into her apartment, blood-curdling screams could be heard out of the apartment. Her 18-year-old son bursts in and finds Sonya is on top of her 4-year-old daughter, apparently pushing her face down in the bathtub full of water, trying to drown her. Her 18-year-old son had to save her, and then also save her 6-year-old daughter, who apparently she was going to drown as well. The 6-year-old girl later told police, quote, "we were fixin to die," Nancy.
GRACE: Okay, Stacey Newman, everybody that wants pot legalized, here you go. What more do you know, Stacey, other than this mom, high on pot, tries to drown her two children?
NEWMAN: We also know when cops arrived, they found an iron in that bathroom still plugged in. And are investigating was this mom actually trying to burn these children as well before she drowned them. The 6-year- old told cops, mommy was also trying to burn us with an iron.
GRACE: Joe Gomez and Stacey Newman, I will come back to you. I want to know exactly what we know the children said. Right now no L.A., Howard Samuels, founder and CEO of the Hills treatment center. Also with me, let me formally introduce Norm Kent, president of Normal. Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Howard, I would like to hear your take on this.
HOWARD SAMUELS, TREATMENT CENTER: Well, first of all, Nancy, the legalization of marijuana makes me disgusted, okay. There are so many people that are psychologically damaged by addiction and marijuana. In fact, I was addicted for five years before I got sober, which was 29 years ago. And I was addicted to marijuana. In fact, when I was smoking marijuana, I smoked PCP, which is called angel dust, because it was mixed with the marijuana, and it was a horrific experience. So for Norm to be pushing this, he is pushing for our kids to get loaded and making our kids` lives that much more dangerous out there in the drug culture, and it actually makes me sick to my stomach when people like Norm trying to promote this.
GRACE: You know, another thing concerning me, Howard, listen to this, Norm, this woman, this mom, has one criminal offense. And it was 14 years ago. It was pot. So when you say it is not addictive, this is 14 years later. And she is still smoking weed.
KENT: There`s no indication. And Nancy, let`s be realistic. You know, they are going to name a strain of marijuana after you in Colorado when you smoke a joint and become irrational. Somebody smoking pot 14 years ago --
GRACE: If you could just answer the question, that would be great.
KENT: -- does not make them addicted today. Come on, be real.
GRACE: So Howard, she was busted 14 years ago with pot. 14 years later, she is still high on weed, except now tries to murder her children while she`s high.
SAMUELS: I got to say, I mean, this is where addiction takes you. Is that for me, because I was addicted to marijuana after five years, I then went to heroine and cocaine, and of all the people I treated, and I treated thousands of people. I`ve been doing this over 20 years, is that marijuana is where it starts. And --
GRACE: What do you mean by that? Marijuana is where it starts?
SAMUELS: Well, a lot of people will end up smoking marijuana because they think it is harmless, it is safe. That is what Norm is promoting along with a lot of other people. Marijuana is not safe. It leads to harder drugs. And 15 to 20 percent of the people that end up smoking marijuana become long-term addicts and can get into such psychological issues like this case in Dallas, which has just been horrific.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A 35-year-old mother high on weed tries to drown her two little girls to death. Joining me tonight, Joe Gomez, KRLD, also with me, Howard Samuels, founder and CEO of The Hills Treatment Center out in L.A. Also with me, Norm Kent, the president of Normal. Gentlemen, again, back to you, Howard Samuels and Norm Kent. Norm, I want to hear your response.
KENT: My response is that there are millions of Americans that use cannabis responsibly, that go on to a higher education, become lawyers like myself, doctors like your friends, and are capable consumers of marijuana. And a regulated system will make that marijuana safe for consumers everywhere in America, and we ought not to deny Americans that freedom of choice not to go to jail.
GRACE: That`s not even a response. I think maybe you`re actually high right now.
KENT: That`s a great response. Nancy, being with you is grounds for being high.
GRACE: Howard, you were talking about marijuana being a gateway drug. That`s what you were talking about. That was just, like, two minutes ago. If you could repeat that so maybe you can jog Norm`s memory.
(CROSSTALK)
SAMUELS: Thousands of people that I`ve treated have been addicted to marijuana --
KENT: Like yourself.
SAMUELS: -- and went on to become heroin and cocaine addicts. I would say 15 percent, 20 percent of the population. What Norm is suggesting is that we mass produce it, we mass promote it, which will add to more addiction in this country and a treatment center on every corner. That`s not what I`m looking to do to protect my children, that`s for sure.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, in a nut shell, do you believe this mother even remembers what she did, she was so high on weed, does she even remember she tried to murder her girls?
SAUNDERS: Probably not. It`s PCP that`s really the loaded drug. It makes people psychotic, and --
GRACE: So you`re saying, no?
SAUNDERS: Saying no.
GRACE: My next question, Dr. Howard Samuels, would be, isn`t it pretty common PCP is in marijuana?
SAMUELS: That`s usually where it`s found. That is the most common way of using PCP is in marijuana, and you do not know if it`s there or not when you`re smoking it.
GRACE: OK, Woody, what about marijuana being so mild and practically a sedative, Woody Tripp, former police commander, what about it?
TRIPP: Well, there`s a lot of assumptions, a lot of innuendo when it comes to marijuana. It`s certainly the gateway drug, but it`s certainly lowers a person`s inhibitions to try, to experiment with other drugs and to create combinations.
GRACE: You know, you may call it lowered inhibitions, Woody, but I think trying to drown your children is a lot more than lowered inhibitions. Norm Kent, response?
KENT: Nancy, if millions and millions of Americans have used cannabis responsibly, why are you creating the impression that it causes people --
GRACE: You always say millions and millions of people use cannabis responsibly.
KENT: And they don`t turn on their children, yes, they do.
GRACE: I keep showing you example after example after example of people high on pot that commit killings.
(CROSSTALK)
KENT: You`re showing me isolated -- you`re showing me isolated examples that aren`t accurate. This is a woman high on PCP. People who smoke pot do not lace it with PCP as a matter of course. Howard is out of his mind to say that, and it`s absolutely absurd to have him on the air to say that.
GRACE: I`m glad you said that Howard Samuels, the founder and CEO of the Hills Treatment Center is out of his mind, because you say that about everybody, including me, that disagrees with you, so I`m happy to stew in that pot, pardon the pun.
Let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Corporal Charles Gaffney Jr., 42, Phoenix. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation, loved motorcycles, parents Charles and Tina, one brother, two sisters. Widow, Laticia, twin daughters. Charles Gaffney, American hero. I want to thank you all for being with us tonight. Drew up next. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
