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Dr. Drew

Twelve-Year-Olds Slashed Friends 19 Times?

Aired June 03, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, 12-year-old girls accused of trying to murder a friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One suspect held the victim down while the other suspect stabbed her 19 times.

PINSKY: Cops say they obeyed orders to kill from a fictional character on the Internet. How did their fantasy world become so real?

My behavior bureau is here with answers.

Plus, a mom turns to Facebook to protect her child.

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.

Of course, Samantha Schacher is my co-host.

And coming up, our behavior bureau is listening in and standing by. We`re going to hear from them in a few minutes. We`re going to try to make sense of this unbelievable story. You heard about it on Jane, you heard about it on Nancy, and we are going to make sense of it.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, we also have the babysitter, Dr. Drew, one of the suspects. She`s going to share her thoughts, hopefully provide some insight.

PINSKY: Not just one of the suspects, but the one I believe, and I`ll explain to you as we go through this, that really was the driving force behind what we`re going to show you here, which is two pre-teen girls, 12 year olds, charged as an adult with attempted murder. Police say the plot to kill a third girl was kicked into action, of course, cute, during a slumber party. It`s unbelievable.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twelve-year-old Morgan Geyser appears in court. Geyser and her friend, now co-defendant, 12-year-old Anissa Weier, aren`t even teenagers, but they are charged as adults for attempted murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the two middle school aged suspects said they believe in a fictional evil character called Slenderman and essentially wanted to be one of their disciples. To do so, they believed, required killing someone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We should be proxies of slender.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, how do we do that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have to kill to prove ourselves worthy to the slender.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to this criminal complaint, the girls grabbed the kitchen knife and led their friends to this woods.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One suspect held the victim down while the other suspect stabbed her 19 times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those wounds pierced the heart, pancreas, and stomach. The girl crawled out of the woods and caught the attention of a man riding his bike. The girl said, help, I`ve been stabbed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: A truly unbelievable story. I`m having such trouble getting my head around this.

Joining us to discuss, Evy Poumpouras, former special agent with the Secret Service, Renee Herlocker, entertainment host and lifestyle blogger, and Segun Oduolowu, social commentator.

Evy, is it appropriate for these girls to be handled as adults?

EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT: I`d like to say they should be handled as adults and their parents handled as children, but given the circumstances with the types of parents that they had, I think --

PINKSY: What is that? Tell us, what do you think -- Evy, tell us what you think you see in these parents?

POUMPOURAS: I think a lot of the blame should go to the parents. There`s a lot of it -- they`ve done some research as far as Instagram accounts, social media accounts, and the father and mother had this type of gothic background.

I mean, the father had names related to, you know, "deadly" and "666" and all this almost like obsession himself with this type of gothic, evil background.

And so, you have a parent who`s an adult, understands the difference between evil, reality, and fiction, and teaching this to their child. So, you can see that there was an impression made to the child here.

PINSKY: Well, let`s talk about, Sam, Creepy Pasta and this Slenderman. Who is this Slenderman?

SCHACHER: Right. No, I know. Creepy Pastas are scary, creepy short stories people share online.

PINSKY: A Website.

SCHACHER: Well, those are short stories, Creepy Pasta. You can go to places like creepypasta.com, read Creepy Pastas short stories, you can submit your own.

PINSKY: Are there little memes that they go around?

SCHACHER: Well, Slenderman has become a meme. So, we`ll get to that. But they are just creepy short stories.

PINSKY: I see.

SCHACHER: Now, as far as Slenderman goes, this is somebody like a modern day urban legend, kind of like a Bloody Mary, that`s been subject to creepy pastas, also an Internet meme. But, Dr. Drew, I have to say, like if these girls were really obsessed with Slenderman, they would know this guy was created just a short few years ago.

PINSKY: There he is, looking at a picture.

SCHACHER: Yes, just a few years ago from a Photoshop contest. I don`t buy it.

They planned to kill their friends for a few months and this is something else for them to blame.

PINSKY: There`s a drawing of Slenderman, the dad posted of one of the girls to his Instagram account. The caption reads only Mogo, which is Megan`s nickname, Megan`s a girl I`m going to focus on the behavior bureau. She draws Slenderman in crayon on a napkin when we are out to dinner. "The Daily Mail" reports he`s a death metal fan that goes by Dead Boy 420 on Instagram.

Segun, what do you think?

SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I`m tired of trying to find cliches, was it the parents or was it the music? Let`s just start blaming people for what they`ve actually done. If there was justice, the girls would be tried as adults, sent to detention center and when they graduate or become old enough, they would go to prison.

They premeditated this murder. They planned it. They lured a girl, stabbed her in the woods and left her for dead.

Anyone who wants to say they are only 12 year olds, in their own dialogue, they said we need to be proxies of Slenderman. If you`re smart enough to use the word proxy of Slenderman, you knew exactly what you were doing.

And I would challenge you, Dr. Drew, the internet we`ve been heralding as a way to find who`s suffering from mental disease, without anyone guarding it, this is what happens.

PINSKY: Well, listen, I`m the one saying we`ve got to become better at how we look at the Internet, read the Internet, become better citizens of the Internet.

Renee, do you agree with Segun?

ODUOLOWU: Please do.

RENEE HERLOCKER, LIFESTYLE BLOGGER: You know what? I think he has a valid point, but at the same time, these kids, they are 12 years old. Their mental capacity isn`t exactly that of an adult and because they were delusionized by the Internet, of course they are going to use the terms proxy, because they are regurgitating what they are looking at. It`s starting with the parents and they weren`t getting it from home. So, I think rehabilitation is the answer here.

ODUOLOWU: How do you rehabilitate two murders?

PINSKY: Hold on. Sam?

SCHACHER: I don`t think I buy the fact they thought these were delusions. I think this is just another way for them to place the blame. As I said earlier, if they really were obsessed with the Slenderman, they knew that this character was fictional, that was invented from Photoshop, so I don`t really believe that.

PINSKY: OK.

SCHACHER: If the parents, but, Dr. Drew, if the parents were to monitor their social media and see, let`s say they were obsessed with the Slenderman, that would have been a symptom of a much greater issue.

PINSKY: OK. On the phone, I`ve got pathologist Dr. Bill Lloyd.

Bill, thank you for joining us. We missed you.

How did this girl survive 19 stabs to the pancreas, near the heart, some of which, I think she got at the liver also? How did she survive this?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, knife stab wounds that go to individual organs, viscera, all right, can be well tolerated in the initial acute phase. There will be bleeding, but not at the rate that`s dangerous, but maybe along stab number 12 or was it number 14 could have hit a major vessel, could have collapsed the lung, and that would then, of course, lead to a more proper fatal outcome. So, she`s able to mobilize out to the road, but then she didn`t last long after that.

PINSKY: So, they missed arteries, they missed veins, that could have caused her to bleed out in seconds or minutes, and they hit organs that would have given her trouble in hours, but not in minutes. Thank God she was found by a bicyclist.

We`re going to hear from the parents about this and a babysitter, as Sam said. I`m going to find out what`s going on with that Morgan, because my behavior bureau has ideas about Morgan and the evidence she gave police.

They`ll be right back with us after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They invite the victim over for a sleepover, were going to kill her that night, didn`t. Instead, it`s the next morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girls grabbed the kitchen knife and led their friends to this woods. Now, they had second doubts, but that didn`t stop them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have two separate different plots. They think about shutting her mouth with duct tape, then they say, well, maybe we need to kill her in the bathroom so the blood can drain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One suspect held the victim down, while the other suspect stabbed her 19 times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam.

We are talking about two 12-year-old girls, who cops say lured another 12-year-old friend, a best friend, into the woods, stabbed her 19 times because an Internet meme told them to do it.

Morgan and Anissa are charged as adults in this case. I want to focus on Morgan for a few minutes, because the police -- she said to police some things that really caught my attention and help us understand what this girl`s all about. Anissa remains a mystery, I can`t understand her.

But my behavior bureau will help figure this out. I still have Evy Poumpouras. Judy Ho joins us, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University. Wendy Walsh, psychologist, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox."

Evy, I`ll let you comment here very quickly. They`ve been planning this for six months. Even if we as a bureau here do figure out a name for what this is, these two premeditated this for six months.

POUMPOURAS: I understand they premeditated for six months, but I don`t think they should be tried as adults. I just think there`s an issue here that`s greater than what they`ve done.

I understand what they did was wrong, but you see a clear disconnect between their understanding of reality versus fiction. They don`t understand that. That`s why we have all these media problems. That`s why we have video games that are rated.

PINSKY: I can`t resist. I`ve got to jump ahead. I need Judy and Wendy alongside me here, because here`s the deal. You two, did you read what Morgan said to the police? You both are clinical psychologists.

This girl Morgan had visual hallucinations "Slenderman" visited her, put radiation into her body and commanded her to do things. What do we call that? That has a name, right?

JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Delusions.

PINSKY: That`s a delusion with visual hallucinations in a 12 year old. That is profound mental illness. Why didn`t somebody notice this?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, I`m going to disagree with you there.

PINSKY: How can you disagree with that?

WALSH: All children have big, wild, huge imaginations.

PINSKY: Twelve year old, radiation thoughts into my head. How does a 12 year old think about that kind of thing unless they are having delusions?

WALSH: No, the fact she was having her desolutions around horror, and around evil, and around blood, may have to do with some kind of conditioning her parents put her into, or the exposure that she had on the Internet.

My own hallucinations of that age were that my Ken doll would visit me at night and that was a happy thought, OK? But these kids are having a kind of big imagination that`s very normal for this age group.

PINSKY: Twelve!

WALSH: Where is that line between reality --

PINSKY: She lost it, because she was delusional and hallucinatory.

WALSH: She`s a child, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Judy, back me up. She`s 12. Judy, back me up on this.

HO: That`s right. You know, the delusions and hallucinations in this case are extremely severe. Not only does she have delusions of grandeur, she`s also having delusions of reference. That somehow --

PINSKY: Radiation, radiating her.

HO: Exactly. There`s, obviously, a possibility, too, there`s a shared delusion here with her friend.

PINSKY: Well, that -- you think -- she`s the one I cannot understand. I can`t understand Anissa because she doesn`t seem psychotic. She seemed to have played along, here, look at this, this is what Slenderman, watches her, reads her mind, Wendy, and she can see him when nobody else does.

SCHACHER: Hold on --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Sickness because of slender radiation. No way to come up with those ideas at 12 unless you`re having major psychiatric --

WALSH: Or way too much Internet with a young mind.

SCHACHER: Thank you, Wendy. How do we know, and I`m not saying this girl Morgan is not --

PINSKY: I`m going to stop you, Sam, because if that person walked into a hospital and described those symptoms, she would be put on a 72-hour hold, no questions asked.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: A 12 year old!

SCHACHER: How do we know this girl isn`t crafty? They`ve had six months to plan this, how did she not look up things to give her an insane defense? How do you know she hasn`t done that?

PINSKY: Let me show you something else. Jane Velez-Mitchell spoke to the mom of one of her classmates. And according to that mom, the kids iPads in the class. And here`s what she said about the daughter`s interaction with that suspect, Anissa. Let`s hear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had stated that she was shown a game called Slendy Man (ph) on the iPad. And she talked about it a lot. According to my daughter, she seemed like she was just a normal happy little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, I think we all know the two girls lured this friend into the woods by telling her they were going bird watching and Morgan even told police this, this is a disturbing thing. This is more than, right, "People that trust you are very gullible."

Evy, that`s the part that`s disturbing to me. Even if we do call her -- let`s say she`s having a severe mental illness, this kind of sinister quality to this girl, to me, makes this whole thing extremely concerning.

SCHACHER: Right.

POUMPOURAS: This is the thing, Dr. Drew, she believed in this. She believed the story was real, and then also she`s raised in a house with family members who also follow this type of mentality and thinking. That`s where I have concerns. That`s where I`m kind of hesitating here, and you put her on as an adult, she could get 60 years. You have to take a moment --

SCHACHER: We don`t know. This could be one big fat excuse. You guys are not giving 12 year olds enough credit to go online and search up little defenses. I don`t buy she has a mental illness. I`m not saying she doesn`t, but only time will tell.

PINSKY: And, Wendy, she said to the police, quote, "It`s weird that I didn`t feel any remorse in regards to stabbing her." That`s hard to --

SCHACHER: She`s a psychopath.

PINSKY: Right or something in that order.

WALSH: So, that may be a giant red flag, I`ll give you that one. But let me also say even adults have a very difficult time on the Internet discerning between reality and fantasy. There`s a whole show on MTV called "Catfish" for people who fall in love with people who don`t exist online. So, why would they fall in hate with an evil character and they`re 12 years old who are using to playing with Barbies and living imaginary lives during playtime all the time.

PINSKY: Judy?

HO: But doesn`t the fact that she`s 12 years old flag you to something that might be biological here? There`s a stressor, sure -- the parents, the environment, but there`s still a biological underpinning here. That`s what we need to pay attention to.

PINSKY: Here`s my take. I appreciate everyone`s point of view, and you`re all correct in raising these issues because they may end up being the right issue, but I`ll tell you what, if that 12 year old walked into a hospital in this country and described those symptoms, they would be put into a psychiatric hospital.

Now, for a work you, admittedly, and maybe she was lying about it because she had dreamed up these things because she just killed somebody and is a psychopath and found a sinister way to cover it up, it`s all possible. Maybe it`s because she started getting confused, it`s possible.

If I were a betting man, I`d bet on significant psychiatric illness, but what I cannot figure out is what`s up with Anissa. I cannot figure out. Judy says shared delusion, not enough for me. I can`t figure it out. So, both still remain somewhat of an enigma.

Next, one of the teen`s former babysitters shocked by the news is with our behavior bureau and she will be with us after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CALLER: I came upon a 12-year-old female, she appears to be stabbed.

OPERATOR: She appears to be what?

CALLER: Stabbed.

OPERATOR: Stabbed?

CALLER: She says she`s having trouble breathing. She said she was stabbed multiple times.

OPERATOR: Is she awake?

CALLER: She`s awake.

OPERATOR: Is she breathing?

CALLER: Yes, she`s breathing. She said she can take shallow breaths. She`s alert.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam.

We`ll be talking about this topic in our after show. Be sure, we`re asking you, go to our Facebook page and like us and send us your comments. We`ll be taking your questions and addressing them on the after show and online at Facebook again, like us at the Facebook page.

Of course, that was the 911 call from the bicyclist who came across this 12-year-old girl, who police say was stabbed 19 times by two friends, who we`ve been discussing.

Back with the behavior bureau. I`ve got joining us Kati Morton, psychotherapist, Judy and Wendy remain with us.

All right. Judy, again -- actually, I want to go to Katie. You heard us yelling about what we thought this was. Where do you fall in on this?

KATI MORTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I have to kind of see the --

PINSKY: Let me interrupt you, Kati, this is Kati`s first visit to our show. We`re going to put her on the hot seat. If you don`t agree with me, well, just say it.

SCHACHER: Team Sam.

MORTON: I`m team Sam. I have to agree that I think that children, we underestimate the amount they can search, and I -- I mean, what is the percentage? Do you remember learning this in school the percentage of people who are schizophrenic that are actually violent is little? And so, I just hardly believe at 12 years old, she would have florid psychosis and go stab her friend.

PINSKY: Kati, I`ve seen that hundreds and hundreds of time.

SCHACHER: And premeditated?

MORTON: Premeditated, though.

PINSKY: I`ve seen premeditated, usually impulsive, not six months premeditated. And, Judy, that`s the part a little confuse. What do you say, Judy?

HO: Well, that`s right. And, Dr. Drew, you know, even if it is a small proportion of the population, when this happens, people who have these delusions can actually carry on and seem normal in a lot of other respects. I know this is a little bit --

PINSKY: Particularly early, particularly early. It`s a progressive condition. So, early on it may be rather spotty, and people missed it, although I do, again, if we were watching on social media, parents were on top of things, this may not have happened.

Joining us on the phone, I have Emily Edwards. She is the woman that babysat Morgan a few times.

Emily, what was -- thank you for joining us first of all, Emily. What was your reaction when you heard about this tragedy?

EMILY EDWARDS, BABYSAT FOR MORGAN GEYSER (via telephone): I was really shocked, because, you know, I babysat her. I remember her as a sweet little kid and now she`s grown up and she`s stabbing people.

PINSKY: When was the last time you had seen her?

EDWARDS: Last time I`d seen her was about two weeks ago.

SCHACHER: Wow.

PINSKY: Were you aware of or did you notice anything that concerned you about her behavior?

EDEWARDS: No, I mean, she just -- she would come home from school, play outside with her friends, and she was -- she appeared completely normal to me, like --

SCHACHER: Emily, did she ever talk to you about these delusions that she`s now sharing with police?

EDWARDS: No, she didn`t. She never said anything out of the ordinary.

PINSKY: How about those in our panel that have been sort of worried about the parents? Tell us about them.

EDWARDS: Worried about the parents, like are you talking about --

PINSKY: Well, they may have given her ideas or sort of been in a cultural, you know, attitude that may have infected the kid in some way.

EDWARDS: I don`t think so.

SCHACHER: Emily, did she ever draw "Slenderman" to you, talk about her obsession with "Slenderman", or do you think she`s manipulative enough to use this as an excuse?

EDWARDS: She never talked about it. And as far as being manipulative, honestly, I think at 12 years old, you know, not really manipulating things, not really a skill that you`re focused on, you know?

PINSKY: She didn`t have a -- people can develop it at 12. But you didn`t observe that with her.

Judy, what is your question?

HO: Emily, I was just wondering, you know, one of the things I worry about is how much parents monitor their activity and communicate to their children that they will be monitoring all of their online activity. Do you know anything about how they monitor this child in general?

EDWARDS: Well, her parents are very protective of her, and, honestly, I think what happened is, she`s a good girl, you know, they probably trusted her to do the right thing. I mean, they talk about Internet safety at school so probably figured she`d already learned that. I mean, I`m not really, like, in the loop with the family.

HO: Right.

PINSKY: Emily, do you have any questions for us?

WALSH: Well, I have a question for you, Emily.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Wendy.

WALSH: I want to know about her peer relationships. Did she have any friends over on those babysitting times, were there play dates? What were her relationships like? Was she definitely the leader or the follower?

EDWARDS: I don`t think, from what I`ve observed of her, she was not either. She was, like, in the middle. Like she is -- she got along with everyone. You know, she was never especially violent or mean towards anybody.

SCHACHER: Se was compliant.

PINSKY: OK, thank you, Emily. I really appreciate you joining us and helping us try to figure this out. It`s a tragedy, I`m sure everyone is very upset by. So, thank you.

Now, when asked why they`d stabbed the friend, Morgan said that Anissa was the one who said they had to kill her or "Slenderman" would kill their family. Did Morgan say it? I read Morgan said that.

My question is, I don`t understand Anissa. Any of you have a theory?

Wendy, what do you think?

WALSH: Oh, Dr. Drew, you obviously have not been an adolescent girl before.

PINSKY: I`m not. I`ve been around, but not been one.

WALSH: One of the ways children --

PINSKY: Adam Carolla (INAUDIBLE) they may believe, but go ahead.

WALSH: One of the ways that adolescents separate from their family of origin and start to create new attachment figures is through mimicking their peers, and that`s why when you see young teenage girls, they all walk the same way, they have the same jeans, the same sneakers, same hairdo. They copy each other as a stepping stone away from family of origin into new attachments. That`s just natural.

So, now, you`ve got a kid who may be delusional, may be having problems and may be a leader, and you got another kid who may be somebody who, you know, forecloses, who`s compliant, who`s follower, who follows along, and also now, you reach this developmental stage where they all copy each other.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

HO: Yes, that`s right, Dr. Drew, and I think about Anissa`s profile. She must have wanted to belong to something, we all do, but some of us need it more than others. No matter what that cause is.

PINSKY: These kids will be tried separately and they, obviously, have different circumstances, but it brought her to the edge of murder.

By the way, Anissa had real trouble doing this. If you read the police report, Anissa kept handing the knife back to Morgan and Morgan kept saying, do it, do it, do it, but they had different reports of what actually happened.

It`s confusing. I appreciate you guys trying to help us get our head around it.

Listen, us trying to come to terms with and understand it is not us excusing things, not us somehow allowing for it, we just want to understand it so we can anticipate it next time and prevent these things from happening.

Bottom line, if you have someone you love who is saying strange things, saying that somebody special is talking to them through the television or Internet, get them to a doctor.

Next up, a teen charged with raping and murdering his teacher is accused of another attack, this one apparently on video.

Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Philip Chism did fall to be Colleen Ritzer with intent to murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was cold, this was calculating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chism killed her in the girl`s bathroom with a box cutter he brought to school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They found her body in the woods behind the school.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My suspicion tells me that he may have been abused himself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Legal separation papers filed 12 years ago. Chism`s father had restricted time with him because of, quote, prior physical and emotional abuse, as well as alcohol abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It would not surprise me if his family moved around a lot and knew that they had a budding serial killer in their midst.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: This is a teenager that after brutally murdering his teacher and now, we learned that he raped her, went out and had dinner immediately after and then saw a movie. I think he`s a psychopath.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: Back with Sam, Philip Chism is the 15-year-old accused of raping and murdering his teacher and this, ladies and gentlemen is the story of all the crazy stuff we report here, this is the one that has Sam upset.

SCHACHER: Yeah.

PINSKY: He slit the throat with a box cutter in the school bathroom, his teacher, dumped her body in the woods and really violated her. All kinds of crazy -- right the over this crazy sexual weird stuff that went on.

SCHACHER: Oh, yeah.

PINSKY: And police charged him with aggravated rape, when they realized the there has been sexually assaulted, sodomized and they implied that he may have photographed the crime. Good times, Sam. Tonight, we learned Philip Chism apparently attacked a female employee at the youth facility where he`s in custody. Let`s bring back Judy, Evy and Segun. Evy, we all sort of arriving at the same conclusion that we didn`t believe this guy could be rehabilitated. What do you say?

EVY POUMPOURAS: I don`t think he can be rehabilitated. You have a clear pattern of behavior. There are serious problems here. This is someone you need to put away. He`s going to do this again. Clear pattern of behavior, we have serious behavioral problems. And again, I want to point out the interesting thing, when he did his first attack, he took a souvenir. He took the underwear of his victim. Serial killer, serial rapist who enjoys this, usually takes souvenirs to remember their victims.

SCHACHER: Yes, Evy, and if there`s an eerie similarity. And I brought this up before between the young Norman Bates, that`s portrait in the A&E`s series Bates Motel, both of them were these odd antisocial high schoolers that moved around a lot, both of them raped and murdered their teachers, both of them slit their teachers` throats, both of them took underwear as momentos, as trophies, both of them after they committed these heinous crimes, they would go about their days like nothing happened.

PINSKY: Judy, do you agree with that?

JUDY HO, PH.D.: Yeah, Dr. Drew, you know what`s happening now in prison, is that he`s learning better ways to be a criminal. So, as far as rehabilitation goes, I think he may actually be able to learn to control his impulses, but as far as moral development goes, this is a completely lost project. I agree with Evy.

PINSKY: Wait, Segun, I think, Judy, is saying that the fact that he went to prison and not some kind of treatment is making things worse. Is that your opinion, too?

SEGUN ODUOLOWU: No. I`m just flabbergasted, and maybe because it`s because I don`t have my bowtie on, but I remember those same ladies talking about two 12-year-old girls, don`t be tried as a adult that they can be rehabilitated and they planned the murder. This guy is now being branded as a serial killer. Do I think he`s a monster? Absolutely. When we first spoke about him, I wanted more details before we declared him a monster. He has attacked somebody in prison. So, I`m with you, Sam, I think he`s a budding psychopath and should be locked away, but I don`t care about his age. All of us professors and doctors, we forget that these kids at 12 and at 15 they are at an age that we can never understand because we didn`t have cell phones that could access everything. We`ve never been their type of 12 or their type of 15. Stop trying to understand them like we were and understand them as they are, monsters to the core.

PINSKY: Evy.

POUMPOURAS: No, I disagree with Segun. This is not the same thing as a 12-year-old girl. The 12-year-old girl clearly believed in this fictional story. That`s the difference here. That`s where my problem is, or there`s a possibility of some type of mental disorder there. This is different.

ODUOLOWU: Prove it.

POUMPOURAS: This is an individual who has devious behavior. Devious behavior clearly violated this woman and then, violated another woman. We see a pattern of behavior, two complete different animals, Segun.

ODUOLOWU: They planned it for six months. You`re saying that -- you`re saying that say one is deviant, one took souvenirs and that -- and these girls aren`t the same as him, but the same.

POUMPOURAS: But again, again, you`re missing what I`m saying. What I`m saying is these girls believed in this fictional story.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: We don`t know that.

ODUOLOWU: We don`t know that.

SCHACHER: Yeah.

ODUOLOWU: Now, prove it, prove it. How do we know it`s not an act? You`re claiming what she said at 12.

SCHACHER: I agree with you, Segun.

ODUOLOWU: I don`t tend to believe, a 12-year-old who planned a murder for six months. For six months, they planned a murder. POUMPOURAS: Again, it`s based on information we have where she believes she can`t delineate the difference between fact and fiction. Again, if this is correct, we are hypothesizing here based on information we have, without sitting in a room and me interviewing her.

PINSKY: Right.

POUMPOURAS: Again, I`m hypothesizing based on all what we have.

(CROSSTALK)

ODUOLOWU: But I`m not hypothesizing, Evy, I`m saying lock them up. There`s no hypothesizes what I`m saying, I`m saying that they have killed a person and planned it, that both of them should be locked up.

PINSKY: Hold it. Hold it. Listen, I don`t -- again, this is interesting conversation. I don`t disagree. I`m not calling anybody wrong, but again, we all agree with the outcome, which is this kid is not rehabilitatable, this is a pattern of behavior that suggests a profound brain disorder we call psychopathy, where he does not appreciate that people exist, except to satisfy his bizarre, twisted, perverse impulses, and if he is outside of a structured environment, the overwhelming probability, now, we`d say more like 100 percent probability, is this will happen again, somebody else will be tortured, and it is unacceptable, regardless of the age of this kid. I do agree with, Segun, we still don`t know for sure about the 12-year-olds we just talked about.

Next, a mom says Facebook is the only way to stop other kids from beating up her son. The question is her host seemed to be making things worse. We`ll get into that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Judy, and Kati, and joining us now, Jason Ellis, you can call him @wolfmate. He`s also, of course, a radio host on SiriusXM radio. And be sure to check out @drdrewhln, Facebook page, like us there. We`re moving on to a story about a Tennessee mom who`s fed up by several students that allegedly tormented her son. Not only does this mom (inaudible) get into the middle of this teen altercation, you can see it here, but she then posts this video you`re looking at on Facebook. Sam, what do we know about this?

SCHACHER: Yeah, so, that mom has been arrested for, charged and arrested, for disorderly conduct, as well as her 15-year-old son, as well as the two alleged bullies and she claims the reason why she got involved is because the two boys were harassing her son for quite some time, nothing was done.

PINSKY: School wouldn`t do anything.

SCHACHER: She claimed nothing was done.

PINSKY: The police wouldn`t do anything.

SCHACHER: Yeah. She filed a police report, and nothing was done. So, therefore, she wanted to get involved in an altercation. She wanted to post it on Facebook to get other parents involved, as well.

PINSKY: Jason, something tells me your mom didn`t post stuff on social media when you got in fights.

JASON ELLIS: I don`t know of that at all, but I`m pretty old, there was no social media when I had a mother.

PINSKY: Well, your mom didn`t run in there and try to save you in the middle of a fight.

ELLIS: No, my father probably -- no, nobody fights for me. I`ve always had to fight for myself. And I feel like when you get older, for me, when I was younger maybe I would see that for a second I would lose my cool and lash out and maybe slap a kid for beating up my child, but when you become a little older, God gives you some wisdom, and then you start to realize that if I beat up little kids in front of my kids, what is that showing them?

PINSKY: Thank you, thank you.

ELLIS: You`re just stupid, your brain doesn`t work, that`s all it is.

PINSKY: That`s right. Her ex-husband -- this woman`s ex-husband, not happy with the wife who put this on Facebook, he told local reporters, quote, she escalated this situation and put my son in harm`s way. Kati, do you agree with that?

KATI MORTON, PH.D.: I totally agree. I mean, obviously, this woman is an attention seeker. There are so many other ways. I mean, I know she says there`s nothing that was done, but there are so many other ways to get involved in your child`s life to protect them other than throwing dirt in people`s face. She threw dirt in these children`s faces, called one the N- word. I mean, who`s the child then in this situation?

PINSKY: Sam.

SCHACHER: OK. Well, yeah, I definitely don`t agree with her using the N-word by any means, in any situation, but, hey, if I saw two kids beating up my dog, let alone my child, I would intervene. I`m not saying that I would smack the kid, as, Jason, says, but I would definitely pull them off my kid. Maybe I would have picked up dirt in their face, too.

PINSKY: Judy, what do you say? Judy.

HO: Yes, but as a parent, you need to be in better control of your emotions, and set a good example for your kid. Dr. Drew, I was actually beat up when I was 8 years old. My bike was taken away and my dad witnessed it and what he did was walk over to this kid`s house, who beat me up and talked to the parents in a reasonable fashion. Now, it turned out the parents were not reasonable themselves, and actually...

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Shocking.

HO: (Inaudible) shocking.

PINSKY: By the way, shocking.

HO: But then, threw racial slurs at my dad and me, but you know what, my dad just left then. He said, you know what, these guys cannot be reasoned with. We`ll take care of your wounds and let`s get you a new bike this weekend.

PINSKY: And by the way, there`s an opportunity there, Jason, for Judy`s dad to go, hey, this is what a bad person is. You would now, you`ve got a bad person, you learn to avoid people like that, and here`s what a horrible person is.

ELLIS: I`m kind of a tough person. So, I could beat up anybody if I wanted to, and I`ve got kids. Sometimes people do crazy stuff on the road in front of me and my children and I don`t try to intimidate when my kids are around. It`s easy to do that, because I have a silly head tattoo, people think I`m crazy.

PINSKY: Yeah. Why would they think that...

(CROSSTALK)

ELLIS: I don`t know. It`s probably because I am, but I would never threaten somebody in front of my children, because then they -- they see this bad guy.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: Would I be wrong to pull them apart? Because that`s something I would do.

PINSKY: But here`s the deal, I think, all of this is systemic of the way parents are getting overly involved in their children`s life as though the children were extension of them as a child. The parents are responding as a child, and this is where the entitlement, this is where some of the problems are coming, where they kind find fashion and autonomy, this is where it`s coming from. We`re going to do another story on this. It`s a mother who was a teacher harassed her daughter`s rival with dozens of anonymous messages. And a reminder, again, friend us on Facebook and you can find us any time on Instagram @drdrewhln. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Renee, Evy, and Jason. And, Jason, look out by I took this panel -- I put this panel together specially for you, buddy.

ELLIS: Can I rank them first?

PINSKY: No ranking.

ELLIS: Drew, you`re number one. I mean, Sam`s super hot, but she`s all married, she has a tramp stamp, she`s suspicious. Drew, I am never gonna give up. We are going to be together.

PINSKY: Thank you, thank you.

SCHACHER: I hope so, too.

PINSKY: The odd couple. All right, we`re talking about a mom now who`s arrested for using social media to harass her teenaged daughter`s rival. Starts with two teenaged girls competing for one boy`s affection, imagine that, when her daughter was rejected by this boy, the mom used Ask.fm to harass this other teenage girl anonymously. She sent 65 messages across three months. The girl was so traumatized they called the authorities. And, Sam, this woman was a third grade teacher.

SCHACHER: Yeah. I mean, this sounds like one of those lifetime movies, of the mother`s from, you know, Texas, the cheerleaders, that lift to their kids, and do these crazy things to avenge for their kids and she has no business being in a classroom if this is how malicious and mean spirited she is.

PINSKY: Evy, online harassment is a crime and it`s not anonymous, is it?

POUMPOURAS: No, it`s not anonymous. Everybody thinks if they use certain websites that they can hide their identity, but they can`t. Law enforcement can track your I.P. address. Go into your system, and do a proper investigation, a forensic investigation of your computer without going to your computer. For everybody out there, if you think you can do something anonymously online or via media, you are wrong. They will find you.

PINSKY: And it it`s -- if there are threats involved, it becomes an FBI issue, does it not?

POUMPOURAS: It varies. It depends on the type of threat and jurisdiction that it`s going to fall under. It can only become an FBI issue if it`s on a felony level.

PINSKY: I see.

POUMPOURAS: And I believe this particular case she was charged with a misdemeanor.

PINSKY: Sam, explain what Ask.fm is.

SCHACHER: It`s a social media site, and a lot of kids go on where people can few ask questions anonymously. And so, this is where the mother thought that she was being smart by being able to go on this site because she believed she was anonymous.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Jason.

ELLIS: Stupid people always think they are smart. That`s the problem with that. You know, anybody that wants to talk smack on the internet, I don`t think that I`m very school smart, so I have already heard from using the internet that if you make comments on the internet, that they can use those against you, so everybody knows that. Especially if you have kids, because you would know that they always use the internet. This person is not a very smart person, and it aggravates her. And that`s why she`s a bitter, stupid lady.

RENEE HERLOCKER: Yeah, and it`s a simple love triangle. Her daughter got flat-out dumped and she was upset about it.

ELLIS: It happens.

HERLOCKER: Sounds like she needs to spend more time on match.com or something, finding her own relationship and stop meddling in her daughter`s.

SCHACHER: Exactly.

PINSKY: So, again -- once again, Jason, we`ve got parents acting like children, seeing that their children as extensions of themselves, being unable to tolerate their kids` frustrations and life experiences without themselves responding as children.

ELLIS: It`s about the kids, allies are over, it`s about the kids. Believe it or not, I have two of them and they speak English and they don`t murder anybody. It`s just sad that somebody doesn`t see. It`s like you yell at your kids for yelling at each other. You hit your kid for hitting the other kid. It makes no sense. Where`s your brain go, you`ve made a baby.

PINSKY: Evy.

POUMPOURAS: You know, Dr. Drew, we always talk about these different topics and I always take a serious approach, but I have to tell you, when I read this one, a part of me was like, what is this woman thinking, what are you doing? You know, you`re a teacher and your mom, what kind of behavior is this? I mean this is something ridiculous.

PINSKY: It`s certainly something for all of us to think about. Panel, stay with me. We`re going to come back after this. And reminder again, go to our Facebook page, like us, we`re hitting a milestone there. I need your help on it. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Thank you for liking us on Facebook and finding us on Instagram. My panel stays with me. And Sam, we have a tweet I want the panel to talk about.

SCHACHER: Yeah, we do. We actually have a lot of action on Twitter in regard to the first story. This tweet from Catalina Grissom, she writes, I think they are lying, the two girls that killed their friend, and quote, I think they are lying about the cartoon character to cover up wrong doing.

PINSKY: Renee, I want to get your opinion on that. What do you say?

HERLOCKER: You know, I just don`t believe it. I just feel like these girls, you know, it`s not a cartoon character that is to be believable. It`s fiction. It`s not real.

PINSKY: So, you think they are manipulating. They`re using it as an excuse?

HERLOCKER: I do.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: That`s what the tweet said. Jason, what do you say?

ELLIS: Music doesn`t make people kill people and neither do cartoons.

PINSKY: Jason, that`s exactly right. Evy, that`s my point, is that when somebody comes into an emergency room and says my 12 year old believes that a bizarre character she heard about in the internet is beaming thoughts into her head, radiation, giving her a sickness, and she sees her, when no one else sees this character, we don`t go, oh, maybe they read something, and maybe there`s something in the internet that infected them, no, we go, this is early schizophrenia. Evy.

SCHACHER: It`s an excuse.

ELLIS: Yeah, full excuse.

POUMPOURAS: I understand what you all are saying, but I still feel that this is a child who didn`t truly understand the difference between fiction and reality. I think that does play a role here. Again, do I think this one -- I think one of the girls does have some type of mental psychological disorder.

PINSKY: Yeah. Morgan, yeah.

POUMPOURAS: I believe it`s that, and that in combination, led her to do this, but then again, you have this other girl who followed suit.

PINSKY: I can`t understand her. Everybody goes, you`ve never been a 12-year-old girl. Jason, you have never been a 12-year-old girl either. I still don`t think having been a 12-year-old girl explains that girl`s behavior.

ELLIS: Look, I`ve been 12 before, I know it`s not a girl, but I was 12 and I never wanted to stab anybody. I think maybe at this point in my life I could handle it more than ever and I have -- I don`t have what it takes to stab people. That`s just the way I`m made. Some people that stab people are 12 were made to stab people. That`s illegal, so you need to go away and stay away from us.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: That is that. DVR us right now, then you can watch us any time. Forensic Files is next, and it begins right now.

END