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Dr. Drew

Couple Kills 3 in Rampage, Commits Suicide

Aired June 09, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Las Vegas killing spree. Was this the work of white supremacists with a Slenderman

connection?

Plus, another Slenderman stabbing. A girl attacks her mom wearing a white mask. I will break it down with the behavior bureau.

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Welcome, everyone.

My co-host is Sam Schacher.

Coming up, we`ve got an exclusive interview with a friend of the couple you`ve been hearing about all day who was involved in a weekend

shooting in Las Vegas.

SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes. And so she was friends with both of them. What she has to stay is astonishing.

PINSKY: All right. Can`t wait to get to that.

Now, of course, this is the couple with extremist views shot and killed brutally two Las Vegas police officers on their lunch break. They

also killed a witness, and then they killed -- the wife killed the man and then she killed herself. They leave behind a social media trail and a

disturbing reputation including documented interests in our old friend, Slenderman, as well as a preoccupation with YouTube.

Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re on our way to Vegas, baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The seemingly happy couple are behind Sunday`s deadly shooting rampage in Las Vegas that left three dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Jerad and Amanda Miller were anything but happy. Jerad seen here crying about going to jail and missing his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just wish they could understand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These police officers were doing nothing more than having lunch inside a pizzeria and these two suspects walk in, this married

couple, the male takes out a handgun, shoots an officer right in the head as he`s sitting in the booth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspects pulled the officers out of the booth and on to the ground where they placed the "don`t tread on me" yellow flag

on the body of Officer Beck. They also threw a swastika on top of his body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the suspects then moved to Wal-Mart, after a gunfight with officers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cops are coming, the cops are coming, everyone get out, get out, get out. And he went into the store and shot in

the air.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Time for our behavior bureau.

Michelle Fields, correspondent for P.J. Media. Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University. And Evy Poumpouras,

former agent with the Secret Service.

Evy, let me ask you this -- if they wanted to start a revolution, as they were saying, why did they seem intent as well on taking themselves out

if things got rough?

EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: That`s how usually most of these play out. If we look historically at all these shootings, they go

in, they take out the targets, they make a statement. At the end they take themselves out. Usually suicide shootings are part of this death by

police.

Nobody -- in the end, ultimately, it`s because they don`t want to go to jail and they`d rather take themselves out, too as part of the process.

PINSKY: So, they won`t go -- it`s not a suicidal intent. It`s that`s where they go if they feel there`s no way out. Is that right? Evy?

POUMPOURAS: Usually -- yes. This is the thing. Most of these shootings, they understand at the end that there`s no way out. If they

think they`re going to be able to get out, they`ll take that exit, but they usually go in with a lot of rounds.

And in this particular case, Dr. Drew, they were looking for the cops. They wanted to get into a gunfight with the cops hence the difference. So

they knew ultimately if they were going in to take targets out and flee, they could have done that. They could not.

PINSKY: Sam, what else do you know about these two?

SCHACHER: So, thank God for social media. We can peek into their world. They left behind two YouTube videos, one documenting their trip to

Vegas. The other was a Valentine`s message where he was, Jerad, professing his love to Amanda. Both of them are really, really strange.

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: Also reportedly they did have an affinity for Slenderman. The Internet me that was the center of the 12-year-old stabbing story we

were reporting on. And then finally, they also had an obsession with Batman villains.

PINSKY: Saw that.

SCHACHER: Like Harley Quinn and then also the Joker.

PINSKY: And there are pictures of them dressed as the Joker.

SCHACHER: They were also street performers. So, I think that`s why - -

PINSKY: They`d be dressed like that.

Michelle, you were expressing disgust there which I feel with you. Go ahead.

MICHELLE FIELDS, PJ MEDIA: Well, you know, you say thank God for social media, Sam. Well, you know, they have this whole trail of crazy

that we can see. Where were their friends, where were their families?

SCHACHER: Exactly.

FIELDS: They spoke to the neighbors and told their neighbors --

PINSKY: Wait, wait, Michelle. I have to interrupt. You`re willing to call this crazy. When we actually talk about crazy, you won`t let us

talk ant that? I think there`s some crazy here, but this is something far more sinister in my opinion.

FIELDS: Well, look, I think this is -- I think these are drug addicts. We know they were meth heads. They told their neighbors that

they were going to kill people and they said their final good-byes to the neighbors.

So, I think the neighbors ought to be ashamed of themselves and hold a little bit of responsibility, because it was their duty to then go to the

police.

But I don`t think this has anything to do with a revolution. I think these are people who are on drugs. You know, people trying to say that

they`re white supremacists. Maybe they are. Why do they go shoot white people? It doesn`t make sense to me. It seems like just people who were

on drugs and went crazy.

PINSKY: Well, there`s no doubt that, listen, it`s so interesting to me Michelle wants to call these guys some mental illness.

I don`t call it that, Judy. Back me up on this. There may be some of that in the background. Certainly you sprinkle meth on to somebody with

these belief systems and they`re going to be violent. Meth is the drug of violence. I think this is an example of something other than mental

illness.

JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: I believe that, too, Dr. Drew. So as you said, meth is the drug of violence. It does increase aggression,

impulsivity, and violent behavior. But this appears to be a really long planned out, sort of, cascading event.

PINSKY: Over months s and months and months.

HO: That`s right. And so, there`s something operating here other than a delusion from a drug or mental illness that just got triggered.

This is something else and this is two people who possibly don`t have mental illness histories planning this out together.

PINSKY: Right.

HO: So we`re talking something more like psychopathy here or something more sinister, right?

PINSKY: Or, Evy, a personality disorder that gets into a certain social context and becomes inflamed. They were at that branch of a bunch

of anti-government people and this becomes now as somebody who`s just a little bit peculiar, maybe has a little meth problem, who`s maybe not a

good person but maybe not a sick person is suddenly funneled in to sick behavior.

POUMPOURAS: Yes, you`re correct. You`re bringing up the situation that happened at the ranch. Clive Bundy was a cattle owner who had a

ranch, and he was allowing his cattle to graze on federal government property.

The Bureau of Land Management stepped in and they were going to go in with federal agents to deal with Clive Bundy and what happened is all these

militias came around to include our two offenders here and went in to help Clive Bundy fight federal agents.

However, what`s interesting here is Clive Bundy found these two individuals to be too extreme, too fanatical and asked them to leave.

Think about how sinister they were.

PINSKY: Right.

POUMPOURAS: That Clive Bundy, ready to fight with federal agents said, you know what, I think you need to keep moving along.

PINSKY: Or, Sam, you always think of reasons to sort of second guess people that claim being too sick for whatever. Maybe that`s a ruse. Maybe

that`s part of Clive Bundy`s operation, they`re going to put these two sack official lambs ahead of another group, who knows?

SCHACHER: That`s actually a good point. But I agree with Michelle here, because I`m sorry, these people are preaching they`re disciples of

this new world order. That seems like a delusion to me. They believe they`re starting a new revolution.

If you look at their Facebook accounts, again, like Michelle stated, if you look at their YouTube videos, how did nobody get involved? They

were passing out pamphlets to neighbors preaching white supremacy and also saying they`re going to contribute to a mass shooting.

PINSKY: Listen, Sam -- Evy is shaking her head. I agree with her, the fact is there was not enough there for police to do anything or mental

health professionals to do anything. Even though in retrospect --

FIELDS: They told their neighbors they were going to kill as many people as possible.

PINSKY: That one neighbor knew something. You`re right.

But on social media, Evy, you agree with me, it was documented, we didn`t have enough to do anything with.

POUMPOURAS: I don`t know if anybody said anything. That`s absurd here. Did not anybody go to law enforcement say, there`s a problem here?

Again, this is a problem we`re having out there, everybody. It`s on all of us to keep ourselves safe. If we see something, we have to communicate

that.

PINSKY: Yes.

POUMPOURAS: Nobody`s doing that.

PINSKY: Absolutely true. That is something we chant about here every night.

And next up, we got an exclusive. Someone who knew the killers. We`ll talk to her, joins us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Patty Rosales who was at a nail salon across from the restaurant didn`t know what happened but saw the aftermath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The officers that were handling some items that were bloody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I saw the blood and the eyes bloody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At any time, something can take our lives or take a loved one.

DEAD SUSPECT: We love each other. That`s all that matters. You know? Before you know it, I`ll be back out and I`ll be back in your arms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam. The last part of that video was from YouTube. We`re, of course, talking about the couple who set out on a revolution to

murder police officers, took out two before they killed themselves.

Behavior Bureau is back. Evy Poumpouras, Erica America, psychotherapist, Z-100 personality. Loni Coombs, former prosecutor.

You can be part of our show by tweeting us right now @DrDrewHLN, #behaviorbureau.

Erica, I want to ask you -- do you think the intent to this -- Evy has told us these people who go out on these rampages often turn toward

suicide. Do you think they intended it to be a murder/suicide?

ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO: Yes, I agree with Evy. Absolutely. If you look at most of the murder sprees, this is how it ends. I feel that

these people whether drug-induced or organic felt delusional and paranoid and they had so much pain in living with this government that delusionally

they thought it was so horrible that planning this attack on people on, you know, random cops which is so horrific to us, was the only way they could

do something about it. No getaway plan. There`s no getaway plan.

PINSKY: Right.

AMERICA: They knew they were going to be, you know, accosted at one point. They were shooting each other, going out in a blaze of glory.

PINSKY: Remember, there`s no significant mental health history other than substance use. The woman particularly was somebody people talked

about as nice and quiet. No mental health history per se. And no overt evidence of major psychiatric.

Lots of personality stuff, and a lot of substance sprinkled in. I think to me, this is one the story we`ve done recently where there`s

something far more sinister going on here. This is where a social context that takes somebody who is predisposed or who`s vulnerable, and turn them

into monsters.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Right. Hang on.

I want to talk to somebody who knows them. Let`s see if we can get some facts here. She`s joining us exclusively. Her name is Leslie Waye.

She`s a friend of Jerad and Amanda Miller, the shooters in this story.

So, thank you for joining us, first of all, Leslie.

In hindsight, did you ever imagine they were capable of something like this?

LESLIE WAYE, FRIEND OF JERAD AND AMANDA MILLER (via telephone): No. I did not. Not at all.

PINSKY: And am I right that they really had no previous history of delusions or depressions or being under psychiatric care per se? Is that

accurate or no?

WAYE: Yes. That`s accurate. They --

PINSKY: Go ahead.

WAYE: As far as I know, yes. Especially with her, she was just so quiet and sweet, like.

PINSKY: What do you think --

WAYE: Somebody you`d never guess.

PINSKY: What do you think -- how did he persuade her, do you think, to engage in something as heinous as this?

WAYE: I don`t know, to be honest with you. I know she was so in love with him that she would have followed him to the moon and back.

SCHACHER: OK. Wow.

PINSKY: She virtually did that.

SCHACHER: That mug shot just gives me creeps.

Leslie, did they talk about, or at least did Jerad talk about the fact of this new world order and that they wanted to embark in a revolution and

kill people? Shoot people?

WAYE: No. He said that he didn`t want it to come down to a revolution.

PINSKY: He didn`t want it to come down --

WAYE: He said it was something he didn`t want to see this world happen to, but he had a feeling that`s where it was going to go.

PINSKY: Leslie, hold on. Thank you for joining us.

Evy, when I made that comment about the social context creating monsters, you got enthusiastic about that. Tell me what you`re thinking.

POUMPOURAS: I agree with you. You`re trying to figure out how did this nice young woman get involved with something like this?

Well, one, who do you hang out with, you know? The value systems of the people you surround yourself, you`re going to absorb those and you have

clearly here you have the alpha, which is the husband, and then the follower, which is the wife, which is almost like what we see consistently.

We always wonder how does this one person follow that, they`re so nice? That`s what happens. And I agree with you with that.

PINSKY: And, Loni, let me get thoughts from you. I haven`t heard from you yet. But you can certainly tell me what you`re thinking about

this. I`m also wondering, at any -- is there any -- I hate to say this. Do we need to hold people accountable for not having reported what they

knew about these monsters?

LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, look, I agree with you. I don`t think this is a mental illness story.

This is a militia mentality. We see it in white supremacists, we see it in anti-government groups. They want to send a message. And their

whole philosophy is built on this paranoia, what was going on there.

Now, if they had spoken that way and talked about this anti-government stuff to their friends and neighbors, that`s First Amendment protected

speech. That`s what we have a problem with when we go after this these.

Once they start killing people, then you can start stepping in. But even then, if he couches it in terms of it might be a revolution, but I

don`t want it to go there, I can see why the neighbors or friends might have held back. But, Dr. Drew, what I find interesting is we`re all

painting him as the alpha and yet when you go through what the police are discovering about the crime scene, Amber who is described as this sweet,

kind, quiet girl is the one who actually, she stepped up and shot one of the police officers in the head, herself. She`s the one who actually took

out the innocent bystander at Wal-Mart who was trying to protect people and she`s the one who shot Jerad and shot herself.

So, to see her take on such an active violent role I think is a fascinating aspect of it.

PINSKY: Loni, I agree. This whole story, I find this terribly disturbing. This is one that really -- I mean, mental illness and problems

like that, I understand. I think there`s treatments for that. I sort of, I get it.

This to me is almost incomprehensible, like trying to understand how, well, there`s examples of countries and organizations adopting horrible

monstrous attitudes. This is one of those stories, I`m sorry to say.

Whether Slenderman had anything to do with it, I`m going to say no. Even if they had a preoccupation with him. It`s not the Joker. It`s not

Batman. It is people being affected by other people.

Now, I do have another Slenderman story. It`s a Slenderman stabbing. I`m back with that in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, and our behavior bureau, Erica, Evy and Loni.

A 13-year-old girl, just pubescent girl, dresses up like our buddy, Slenderman, and attacks her mother with a knife. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I came home one night from work and she was in the kitchen waiting for me. And she was wearing a white mask.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She also had a knife and began attacking her mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got the feeling she was playing a role. We found things that she had written.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They referenced demons, being insane, falling into darkness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she made reference to Slenderman. She also made some references to, you know, killing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: This happened a few weeks before the Slenderman stabbings in Wisconsin we reported on last week. We`re just finding out about this

story now.

So, Evy, let me go to you first. Do we blame the Slenderman for these attacks? Or if it had been 19, you know, whatever, it would have been

Black Sabbath or Freddy Krueger, or something else?

POUMPOURAS: Well, I think the situation here is it`s documented the mother said that her daughter suffered from mental illness.

PINSKY: Yes.

POUMPOURAS: So, for here, that is I primary red flag. Her daughter had mental illness.

Now, why if her daughter has mental illness, is she surfing the net and looking into these types of things? This is where I feel that a parent

--

PINSKY: Interesting.

POUMPOURAS: -- when you know your child has these issues you need to very closely monitoring.

The other thing is the parents did discover all the Slenderman stuff until after the fact, until after the attack.

SCHACHER: Yes, Evy.

POUMPOURAS: I think this is --

SCHACHER: Go ahead.

POUMPOURAS: Right?

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: I`m jumping out of my seat.

PINSKY: That`s right. We agree.

SCHACHER: I`m so glad that you brought that up.

POUMPOURAS: Go ahead, Sam.

SCHACHER: When I read that, I was absolutely shocked that her daughter was having delusions, believed she was being spoken to by demons

then nobody was monitoring her social media activity especially when she was engulfed in such dark things like these creepy pastas.

But here to me is a clear cut, we know she`s suffering from mental illness. She blacked out. She can`t recall the incident of the crime.

This is completely different from the two 12-year-olds who premeditated, who remember every single detail of their attempted murder. That`s why I

think the other girls are not mentally ill, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: And different from the Las Vegas story we just reported on where people have months of preoccupations and are in their right mind.

Loni, what do we do with this girl?

COOMBS: Well, I think she needs a mental evaluation obviously and probably there`s a history of this based on what the mother says.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: She`s known for a while she has mental interest. And I agree, the interesting point here is she said after her daughter tried to

kill her with a knife, she went through and started looking at her Facebook and her writings. You know, if your child has mental illness, you need be

on high alert to what they`re writing, what they`re looking at, if they had access to weapons, guns, knives. Things like that.

PINSKY: Yes.

COOMBS: You have to be constantly vigilant to help this child be safe for themselves and for others.

PINSKY: Yes, that`s absolutely.

Erica, I`m sure you agree with this. Help people understand how, you know, people were -- like Michelle was having trouble with that last story

not being so much about mental illness and this being almost exclusively a mental illness story.

AMERICA: Yes, absolutely. These are nuanced cases. It`s easy to kind of put everything in one bag, but they`re separate. This one we see

she had a mental illness. It was possibly psychosis at that point. She was reaching out in drawings, all these things to her mom.

And the Slenderman thing is something she latched on to. You took my point out of my mouth. If it was Freddy Krueger 15, 20 years ago that`s

what it would have been.

You know, the mentally, stable, healthy mind can handle slightly off distractions such as Slenderman or violent video games. But just watching

Slenderman or just watching violent video games doesn`t make one stab one`s mother. There`s something much deeper.

PINSKY: That`s right.

Evy?

POUMPOURAS: The one thing I want to point out is the young girl saying she doesn`t remember any of this. I`d want to go back and see does

she have any amnesia, any, you know, history with as far as recalling things because it`s very possible she`s malingering that. Just from my

experience in doing interrogations and interviews, a lot of times what people would do, especially young people, they would say, I don`t know, I

don`t remember. It`s a way to kind of get out of something.

PINSKY: Fair enough. But also, also people that have severe traumas, whiteout or blackout or red-out, they will do that in those moments and as

well when people are severely psychotic, they sometimes come back from it and go, what was that? I can hardly remember what happened.

Guys, got to go. We`re talking to, next, a Craigslist nightmare. A girl answers an ad and confronts a predator, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought he was going to kill me. I thought, like, I was not going to come home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This 18-year-old victim says she answered an ad on Craigslist last week and was told by this man the job was for a home

health aide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Social media is great. Social networking is great. But you have to be careful when you`re dealing with people you

don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he brought her back to his apartment, he told her to sign this paperwork for a sex for hire company.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The guy`s an animal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tried to get up from the chair. I was like this and he grabbed his hand, pushed me back down on the chair and he said,

you don`t fill these paper works out, you`re not going nowhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He used threats when he forced her to sign this document of the escort service.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, and our behavior bureau, Michelle, Evy, and Judy.

The police found 50 of these so-called escort contracts signed by 50 other women at the suspect`s house. And those contracts detail specific sex

acts that women were expected to perform. Judy, I find this story, again, another unbelievable story. Do we understand these women signed these

voluntarily and they were prostitutes or is this 50 women that he beat into submission?

JUDY HO, PH.D.: I think it`s more likely that most of them were beaten into submission like the way that this woman was. And this is a very

egregious way of describing this foot in the door technique that oftentimes sales people will use to kind of get you involved just by getting you to

commit to something smaller and less important. So, she -- he obviously got her in with an interview, I`ve heard, and then the second interview was

when he said I found you a job, come and sign the paperwork. So, that way she was invested and she thought it was a health aide position. And then,

once she arrived and he said what it was actually going to be, she was obviously surprised and didn`t know how to back herself out of it.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: I`m just alarmed that this went on for so long, because not only were 50 women victims, but he

lived in an apartment building with his mother and he`s mom -- he`s 42, by the way.

PINSKY: Nice.

SCHACHER: He lived with his mom in an apartment. There`s a lot of people there. And I would think that these women, I mean, God, either they

felt ashamed or maybe he helped them.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa.

SCHACHER: How did he not get locked up before?

PINSKY: Maybe he just ran a prostitution ring, maybe the guy was just a pimp and this is just one that went bad. I want to get Evy and Michelle`s

idea -- consents about this. Evy, what do you say?

EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: I think it`s very possible that some of the women he preyed upon were vulnerable, and maybe they`re willingly

were.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: .the prostitutes. Vulnerable people become sex workers. They`re vulnerable by -- I mean, that`s sort of what happens, right?

POUMPOURAS: Yes. And so, maybe this one did go back -- bad and then he ended up raping her and committing these horrible acts. It`s too difficult

to tell. But it kind of seems odd like, how do you rape somebody and force someone to become a prostitute? I would think that there`s a better

grooming process than the ones that he used.

PINSKY: Michelle, you know I love you, right?

MICHELLE FIELDS, PJ MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

PINSKY: She was going off on social media, about how -- maybe there was some hatred there. So, I didn`t like her. I picked on her so much.

You`re just -- you`re so good at taking contrary opinions to my own. I can`t help it. It`s a pleasure. But, what do you say about this particular

story?

FIELDS: Well, look, I think this guy is disgusting. If it was up to me, I would throw this guy in Guantanamo Bay. President Obama just released

five men from there. So, there`s plenty of space for this guy. He`s disgusting. He needs to be there. However, I do think we need to have a

conversation about meeting people on craigslist. There are way too many people and women who get hurt, killed because of meeting with people on

craigslist. When you meet someone on craigslist, you meet them in a public space. Use some common sense. You don`t go to their apartment. Not that

this woman is to blame, but you don`t go to the man`s apartment. I mean, that`s just putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

POUMPOURAS: Right.

SCHACHER: Yeah.

PINSKY: Evy?

POUMPOURAS: Well, look, I want to say this. OK? I know, again, he`s the predator and he`s the bad guy. However, as victims we have to be

careful. As people we have to be careful not to make ourselves become.

SCHACHER: Right.

POUMPOURAS: Make thoughtful decisions. Think about it, if you`re going online, always assume that this person is not the person they are

representing, that they will be lying, that there`s something nefarious. And then I agree with, Michelle, meet in a public place. Never go to

somebody`s home. Meet at a coffee shop. Go on.

PINSKY: I`ve got a great idea. I`ve got a more extreme idea. Judy, how about I just -- you don`t go on craigslist to meet people? How about that?

I have a policy. I have a new policy, don`t meet people on craigslist.

SCHACHER: Wait. There`s a lot of job interviews on.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Is it a job interview who`s buying furniture. Even if you`re gonna buy furniture, I wouldn`t go to the person`s house. I don`t know.

Judy, what do you say?

HO: Exactly. You know what? We need to be more educated about craigslist and the types of people that tend to be on craigslist. And

apparently, he`s targeting a type of person who might not be so educated about that, but this is why we need to get the word out to just not go on

craigslist for these types of important things. Go on monster.com. Go on career.com. There are other types of websites.

PINSKY: Hold on, Michelle, first. Michelle, go ahead.

FIELDS: No, no, I disagree with that. You do your homework. OK? If you`re going to meet up with someone, they give you their name, you have

their e-mail, look them up on Facebook, look them up on LinkedIn, do research before you meet up with them. And when you meet up with them, go

to Starbucks. You don`t go to the person`s home.

(CROSSTALK)

POUMPOURAS: Evy, finish this up.

HO: This person`s ad was very, very professional.

PINSKY: Evy.

POUMPOURAS: I just have to say one thing and this is to all the viewers because everybody here we all care about everybody out there.

Whatever social media you are using, you should always assume that there`s something nefarious going on. I don`t care if it`s monster.com, I don`t

care if it`s Facebook, I don`t care what it is. There are predators out there. This is how they find their prey. That`s it.

PINSKY: That`s coming from somebody who worked in protection, you know -- Evy, what`s the organization you were with? Secret service or -- secret

service, right?

POUMPOURAS: Secret service.

PINSKY: Somebody who`s trained to work in the secret service giving us her professional opinion. I like that. We learn something.

SCHACHER: I`m with you, though, Michelle, because I`ve had, through college, a lot of legitimate jobs through craigslist. You just have to do

your research first and meet in a public place and I think that we should just.

(CROSSTALK)

HO: But not everybody has an online presence, and even people with good online presences can still be predators.

PINSKY: I`m with you. I`m just suspicious of the whole thing.

Next up, our most tweeted story of the day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She put the duct tape around my mouth and the other one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The substitute teacher pulled out two rolls of tape. One clear, the other a roll of pink duct tape.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was like this to right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Went across your face and on to your cheeks?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right to right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our teacher put tape over our mouths at choir time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of us were talking too much. And then she got really frustrated. It was very hard because it almost covered my nose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every time we talk about this thing, she starts crying because it hurts her.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam. Now, the substitute teacher was fired after having put duct tape across the mouths as you heard there of a group of

third graders. Judy Ho is back. Joining us, T.V. host and reporter, Niki Noto and my co-host on Love Line Michael Catherwood. So, Judy, let me play

devil`s advocate for a second here. What if the teacher was just like kind of figure out some way and made -- did make it kind of a funny game and

went too far? I mean, is there any way we can make sense of this without it being something sinister and stupid?

HO: Oh, I`m sorry, I don`t buy it, Dr. Drew. I don`t understand what kind of game she would be playing that would actually go this far. This is

absolutely an intentional thing that this teacher did, and I always think about teachers as three different types of people. The first type is the

ones we want to be our teachers there. The ones who care about students, who really want to better the education system. There`s the second type

that we`ve talked about many times on your show which are actually paedophiles and are attracted to kids.

PINSKY: Many times.

HO: And that`s why they`re teachers.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: Then the third type is the type of person who needs power and control in life. And who better to put that on than kids who can`t really

talk back to you and can`t stick up themselves.

PINSKY: I got you. You feel me, Niki? But you feel the -- I mean, if I had Mike Catherwood in a classroom, I`d be thinking about putting tape over

his mouth, you know what I`m saying? And maybe she just, you know, just applied a little bit of not horrible judgment, but just not great judgment.

NIKI NOTO, TV HOST AND REPORTER: Look, let me go ahead and say first of all, I`m not a teacher, but here`s the simple solution, just send them

to the principal`s office. And it sounds like this teacher needs to be duct taped, themselves, and they need to go sit in the principal`s office and

learn a lesson or two. I mean, this is ridiculous. We`re in charge of children and you`re gonna put duct tape over their mouths in hopes that

they`re gonna be quiet? These are children. That is not OK.

PINSKY: Mark, throw me the duct tape, will you? Catherwood, what do you say to this?

MIKE CATHERWOOD, LOVELINE CO-HOST: You know what, it really -- it blows my mind that a substitute teacher of all people would consider that

an appropriate activity in class. I just -- I can`t understand it. And I think that a lot of these teachers that we see that are involved in these

scandals, they`re very young people, fresh out of college. And I think that as the technical standards and the intellectual standards go up and up for

all these careers especially teachers, the social skills are eroded and there are these college graduates, fresh college graduates that have lived

their lives not going to record stores. They`ve been in their dorm rooms and in their houses, online. They`ve been socializing romantically and in

friendship fashion all through.

PINSKY: All right.

CATHERWOOD: They don`t develop social skills.

PINSKY: Just feel reasonable Michael Catherwood. Niki, what do you say?

NOTO: Yeah, I think when you`re gonna be an authoritative figure in front of these kids, I mean, you can`t slip through the cracks. And

obviously, this substitute teacher clearly slipped through the cracks. When you`re a sub, kids know, look, they`re not your normal teacher. They`re

gonna push your buttons.

PINSKY: Yeah.

NOTO: They`re gonna try to wiggle and do things they shouldn`t be doing.

PINSKY: Yes.

NOTO: So, I`m sure they were chatting, they`re just trying to get on their nerves.

PINSKY: Yes.

NOTO: Simple solution here, send them to the principal`s office like I said before.

PINSKY: I agree on you but, Sam, this is so different than the stories we`ve been -- we`ve been reporting egregious teacher stories. To me this is

like.

SCHACHER: You`re really lenient on this. It`s almost like, what, did Miss Tibbets do this to you?

PINSKY: You guys all remember her name.

SCHACHER: It`s about her, right?

PINSKY: She did not do that to me, but she would have, I`m sure because she`s quite worse. But I just don`t know how hard it is to be a

teacher. And I want to draw a line.

SCHACHER: Duct taping mouths.

PINSKY: Yeah. It`s not OK. I`m not saying it`s OK, but we`ve been reporting such egregious stories about teachers` behavior and this one is

sort of like bad judgment, like bad, bad judgment.

SCHACHER: I mean, I feel like that are we not properly screening our teachers anymore? Are we not monitoring.

PINSKY: What does your mom say? Your mom`s a fourth grade teacher.

SCHACHER: My mom? You know what, my mom wants us to do goods teacher stories. Maybe we can highlight her with a lot of people request her

classroom.

PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Mike, what are you laughing about?

CATHERWOOD: Nothing. I was just thinking about putting like a nice pink gag on, Sam, as well.

PINSKY: Stop it, stop it. Finish, Sam. Stop it, stop it, stop it.

SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. OK.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: Such a hot.

PINSKY: Mike.

SCHACHER: Wow.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: But now, I feel, like, red.

PINSKY: Why did I talk to him?

SCHACHER: Yeah. I don`t know but also, you know, I don`t think it helps that, you know, our teachers are really ridiculously underpaid. So,

perhaps it`s not attracting the right candidates anymore.

PINSKY: Yes, perhaps.

All right. Next up, we`re doing more teachers. This is a playground monitor who serves children dog food. Dog treats.

Reminder, you can find us any time on Instagram @drdrhln. Be back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their children were served dog treats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow. Did I really eat dog treats? Something that my dog eats?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dozens of kids, school officials say were served what they thought was a normal cookie on Thursday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know what possessed her to do something like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was upset that that we put our trust in school, supposed to take care of us would do that to us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who gives, like, children dog treats?

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Judy, Niki, and Mike. Children on the playground thought they were getting cookies as a treat but the teacher`s

aide fed 75 students dog treats. The kids called it a, quote, mean trick. We`re wondering what he`s thinking. Again, I`m defending teachers tonight.

Nicky, I had a friend in first grade who ate the dog treats. He eat the little -- the bone-shaped things. He`d eat them like crazy. These things

aren`t going to harm anybody. Maybe she made a mistake.

NOTO: Well, look, you know what, they may not harm anyone, and I love dogs. I think that it`s great people are making their own dog treats now

with healthy nutrients because let`s be honest, most dogs are better than most people. However.

PINSKY: Learn about Niki, something about Niki right there.

NOTO: All I can see right now in my head is a teacher`s aide sitting in their living room eating dog treats with their dogs being called into

work the next day, hey, we need you to bring a snack, going through their panty and they reach for the dog treats. Are you serious? What happened to

goldfish? What happened pretzels? That`s a snack for kids on the playground. Am I right?

PINSKY: You`re right. Mike, you seem to respond to this, why?

CATHERWOOD: I don`t know what`s going on with you, Drew. Because of all the stories you`ve been doing on teachers leading up to this have been

so bad.

PINSKY: So horrible.

CATHERWOOD: That you`re willing to excuse it. Listen to me.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: Listen, I eat dog treats. I eat dog treats now. I`m an idiot. I`m a moron. I don`t want someone going to school and tricking

children into eating dog food. You know what, what`s going on with you, Drew? Like, the kid -- that kid summed it up. All kidding aside.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: What`s going on with me? You eat the dog treats. Judy, what do you say?

CATHERWOOD: I`m a barbarian.

HO: Dr. Drew, I get it, you cover so many crazy stories on this show that maybe you are just trying to put a positive thing on things.

PINSKY: Yes.

HO: But no.

PINSKY: Thank you. I`m trying to protect the teachers who need protected like Sam`s mom. I`ll protect Sam`s mom.

HO: No.

PINSKY: What Sam? What?

SCHACHER: In your defense, one of the students did tell the local paper that.

PINSKY: He liked it.

SCHACHER: He thought they were good.

PINSKY: That`s right. OK.

SCHACHER: Not OK, though. Not OK.

PINSKY: I want to move on. I want to move on now to the story that is the most tweeted story of the day from our listeners and viewers. A father

attacked -- I actually dig this story. This father attacked his daughter`s teacher with a baseball bat. This teacher is the one that deserves to get

our attention. This father discovered dozens of inappropriate text messages between his -- I believe a 15-year-old daughter, and this teacher. The

police, God bless them, determined no crime was committed but when the -- well, when they examined these texts, but when the teacher showed up at the

15-year-old girl`s home, dad came out with a baseball bat. Mike.

CATHERWOOD: Yeah.

PINSKY: That`s a story I can get behind.

CATHERWOOD: I agree. I agree completely. But it`s just strange how you have to -- someone has to do really bad stuff for you to get behind

something that happening to them. I`m just saying that, like, you are essentially saying that all these teachers are like Mussolini and that we

should let them slide because they`re not Hitler.

PINSKY: OK. Niki, listen, I`m not advocating civil disobedience. (Inaudible) but the at least, I feel gratified by this story.

CATHERWOOD: Yeah.

NOTO: Well, look, I think the immediate knee-jerk reaction for any dad that might come across inappropriate texts of his 15-year-old daughter, you

know, maybe that`s a knee-jerk reaction for some. But however, this is what I want to know with this story. What is the content of the texts? For all

we know, Suzy (inaudible). Might be a floozy. How about just not give the teacher.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: Hey, she`s a teenager.

HO: She`s 15.

NOTO: Hey, teenagers are crazy these days. You don`t know what they`re talking about on their phone.

SCHACHER: That`s not OK. I`m not -- I don`t like the idea of slut shaming. I don`t like the idea assuming that this young girl deserves it.

NOTO: All I`m saying is that there are no grounds.

SCHACHER: I don`t like it.

PINSKY: I`m with you, Sam, but, Niki, finish here.

NOTO: My biggest point is that we don`t know what was said in the texts. There`s a 50 percent chance that she was completely innocent.

However, there could be a 50 percent chance.

PINSKY: Why 50 percent?

CATHERWOOD: There`s just a 0 percent chance that a grown man even having his student, 14-year-old student`s number, is.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Yes, that`s inappropriate.

CATHERWOOD: He`s a grown ass man.

PINSKY: So, Judy, the whole.

CATHERWOOD: He shouldn`t know her cell phone number.

PINSKY: It`s about boundaries and, again, it`s something I chat about all the time. Big people take care of little people. They don`t put them in

circumstances where there even earn could be the appearance of impropriety.

HO: That`s right, Dr. Drew. And you know, when I was going to school, I couldn`t even contact my teachers unless I wanted to go knock on their

classroom door. We didn`t have phones where we could text each other. That definitely blurs the boundaries and makes things like this happen a lot

easier. I`m behind the dad on this one though.

SCHACHER: Me too.

HO: You know, he`s just protecting his daughter. Good for him.

PINSKY: Niki, last word.

NOTO: Yeah, no, I just want to throw out there that whether a 42 teacher, he should not be opening the flood gates for inappropriate

communication.

PINSKY: Yes.

NOTO: And I agree, he should not have the number. All I`m saying, innocent until proven guilty. This girl, there`s a 50 percent chance that

she was answering to this guy which is terrible on her part as well. I`m not defending him.

PINSKY: Done and done. We are back after this.

SCHACHER: Victim blaming.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Judy, Erica, and Mike. Now, a warning before we get on with this next story. It`s a terribly disturbing story. I`m asking,

Sam, to close her eyes because I don`t think she can tolerate this. We are going -- Erica, you`re not going to watch either. That`s fine with me.

Anyone else who feels they should not watch this, please close your eyes. We`re addressing it though for an important reason. We talk a lot, Judy,

about people on the show who have a history of torturing animals and what that means about their psychological state and what they can do to people

and how -- it`s a sign, a sign of someone who`s truly, truly dangerous. In this case, we have a man who just shoots a cat outside the cat`s owner`s

home for no reason. Actually, pets the cat before he does so, which makes it even that much more insidious. This whole thing was recorded on a home

security camera. Many stories tonight have made me ill. They`ve been against humans, been against animals. This one is against animals. It`s

tough to watch. We will play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three men on her street at 3:30 in the morning, one man stops and pets the family`s Siamese tabby cat, Jack. This is not easy

to watch. The friendly man who moments ago pet Jack chats with his friend, and then turns around and shoots Jack. Jack is clearly injured, dragging

his back feet behind him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He meowed a little bit. He was in shock at that point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, I cannot get my head around it. The cat was injured, and had to be euthanized. Judy, let`s get into this. There`s no rational

motivation for this. This is pure hatred that gets acted out on animals, could easily go to people.

HO: That`s right, Dr. Drew. As you mentioned earlier, people who demonstrate cruelty to animals is often a sign of a much deeper mental

experience. People who actually have cruelty to animals tend to later on go on to violent crimes. Murders oftentimes will start by torturing and

shooting animals first. So, this is a very, very serious.

PINSKY: Twitter there, Marleen Grace, that is absolutely the point of this story, psychopathy begins or does it manifest often with torturing

animals first? Erica.

ERICA AMERCIA: Yes. So, this is the behavior that we talk about with - - as being one of their criteria for anti-social personality disorder has been called sociopaths, psychopaths, that people who kill people

eventually.

PINSKY: Yes.

AMERCIA: So, many times this is the precursor to something worse.

PINSKY: Lack of empathy, right?

AMERCIA: And it`s a complete lack of remorse and empathy, and there`s something almost weird about how we say sometimes like an anti-social

person can be charming at the same time. So, he pet the cat in a like a sort of, oh, to get him to come close then kills him. As, I don`t know, I

have three dogs, just seeing something like that, I can`t even -- this guy -- was he found? Was this man found?

PINSKY: I don`t know.

SCHACHER: I hope so.

HO: Not yet.

PINSKY: They`re still looking for him. And listen, that`s another reason to show this tape, if anybody has any information that could lead to

the arrest of this gentleman.

SCHACHER: Please report him. Please, please report him. I was not able to watch the video, but just hearing that the cat was struggling afterwards

and dragging his legs, it`s -- you`re right, it takes a real callous person, a real piece of s-h-i-t to be -- I`m sorry, to be able to do that

to an animal, and if is an indicator of what they would do to humans.

PINSKY: Mike.

SCHACHER: I`m just so thankful that this was caught on camera. Hopefully he can be, I don`t know.

PINSKY: Brought to justice.

SCHACHER: Yeah.

PINSKY: Mike.

CATHERWOOD: There`s nothing funny to say about this. It`s, how painfully insecure must this guy be, "A" to be carrying around a gun

randomly at 3:00 A.M. walking down the street and "B" to not want to use it to fire at someone else firing at him. An innocent defenseless little cat,

I mean, he must be really overcompensating for something. And it`s just egregiously disgusting to see someone do that.

PINSKY: And, Judy, I have a hard time getting my head around how someone could show kindness, like, is it taunting? He pets the cat. Is that

grooming literally this animal for something disastrous? Like he would do to a human?

HO: Right, absolutely. As, Sam, just mentioned, too, I see this as a precursor to what he might do to a human being. And same thing with what,

Erica, said that a lot of people with anti-social personality characteristics have a charming quality to them first. And so, this is a

very fake.

PINSKY: Oh, did you watch that? I`m sorry. Sam accidentally saw that. It`s very upsetting.

HO: It`s a fake emotion there.

PINSKY: You can please DVR us, and watch the show any time. Skip right through that little part there. Forensic Files, a show that follows us and

it begins right now.

END