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Dr. Drew
Parents Made Girls Live Naked
Aired June 11, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, little girls starved by their own parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Making them run outside in the heat, even camp out in the backyard where their parents set up a tent and a bucket for the
girls to use as their bathroom.
PINSKY: And nobody knew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just, it`s unsettling. How can you really know who`s living next to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just really disturbing.
PINSKY: Then, the killer cannibal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of scary. I mean, you don`t expect it.
PINSKY: Look at these photos from Facebook. Police say this man murdered a woman, then ate her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just lost for words. I just don`t know what to think. This kid that I`ve known for 28 years could do something this
gruesome.
PINSKY: Will the behavior bureau defend him?
And, tough to watch, but you have to see it. A child with autism slapped by a school aide.
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Ow!
PINSKY: Plus, the woman who had sex with a dolphin.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome.
I`m here with my co-host Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, the police say a cannibal, a human being who eats other humans, killed a woman, ate -- it`s a story, unbelievable story -- chopped
her head off, hands off, then ate her.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, it`s gruesome. There`s a Facebook aspect to this case and we will also hear from the neighbors.
PINSKY: All right. But, first -- that story, I can`t wait to get into that because it`s so bizarre.
SCHACHER: It`s everyone`s worst nightmare to be murdered then eaten.
PINSKY: I`m going to get to it.
First, I have another amazing story, an Arizona couple accused of punishing, get this, the parents punishing two of their four adopted
daughters -- and when I say punishing you`re going to be stunned by what they did to these girls for five years.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to police the Jorgs admitted to punishing the older girls.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For lying the child gets swatted on the buttocks with a wooden paddle, have apple cider vinegar sprayed in their mouth, run
outside in the heat for 60 minutes straight, write several Bible verses three times each, and recite all the Bible verses from memory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The parent set up a tent and bucket for the girls to use as their bathroom. Police say the Jorgs referred to the punishments
as prisons.
CPS said all foster families including the Jorgs were required to have at least 30 hours of training, which included acceptable discipline
lessons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Let`s bring in our behavior bureau. Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, host of "Tomboys" podcast on Blog Talk Radio. Judy Ho,
clinical psychologist and professor of Pepperdine University. And Erica America, psychotherapist, and Z100 personality.
Listen, Sam, this couple did not think they were doing anything unusual and I`m sorry to say that piece did not quite capture how severe
the punishment was. By the time these girls were brought to medical attention, they were malnourished. One was 65 pounds. They had thickening
of their skin. They literally had lathering of their skin from being struck so many times. I mean, they had growths on their body from
infections from malnourishment, and they were pooping in bags and coffee tins. It was unbelievable.
SCHACHER: All night. It`s horrific. It`s a horrific story.
But what you were alluding to earlier, this is crazy because they got arrested after they, themselves, the parents called the Behavior Health
Agency to notify them their children, the 11-year-old and 13-year-old, adopted daughters, were defiant, were deviant, those were their words. So,
then, the agency then notified CPS.
PINSKY: So, the agency said, wait, wait, your kids are lying and acting out because what?
SCHACHER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Because you`re making them do what?
SCHACHER: Exactly. So, they told them point black, this is what`s happening. So, then, they notified CPS, and then they went to home and
immediately called police. Thank God.
PINSKY: I don`t want to go to you first. Maybe I`ll go to Leeann to get outrage going. But, Leeann, let me tell you about what these girls
were subjected to when they lied or talked back. They had two prison systems in the home. One was regular prison in which they were allowed to
sleep on a towel on the floor inside the house -- allowed.
And, but had to go to bathroom in a bucket outside. Then there was deep prison which God knows what they did. Maybe, you know, talked back to
mare mom or something. And in that case, the 13-year-old spent six months in deep prison which meant sleeping outside in a tent, being naked,
although the 11-year-old was allowed to wear a diaper and they were allowed to -- they were given diapers for their heads if it was cold outside.
Go ahead, Leeann.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Oh my God. I don`t know where to start with this, Dr. Drew. Eleven years old and wearing a diaper mind.
My baby boy is 9 months old, he`s still in a diaper. Sure. And he`s almost 2 -- he`s over 2 1/2 feet. He`s a very long child. That 13-year-old
is barely 5 feet tall and she`s like 60 pounds.
Obviously, these parents are crazy. And I would argue they`re actually just on the religious crazy end of the spectrum. I say, where`s
moderation? Moderation in everything -- sure, you can discipline your children.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: That`s what you do as a parent. This is absolutely absurd. It`s crazy. They should be put away, locked ups throw away the key.
And I don`t think this is mental illness because they believe what they`re doing is right. They just need to know where that spectrum is
because they think that this is OK. This, in their mind, they`re so crazy on one side that this is OK.
SCHACHER: Leeann, that`s the irony of this. Here they are preaching the Bible. Here they are disciplining their children, torturing their
children, by one of the things, making them memorize these Bible verses because their kids are sinning yet they`re the ones who are evil. It`s
crazy.
TWEEDEN: That`s exactly right. And people who take in foster children, I mean, obviously, I think that -- in this case, they probably
wanted kids to inflict this on in some sick way.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: But also, you get money when you take in children. And a lot of times we find that foster parents are abusive. I`m not saying they
all are, but they get money for this.
PINSKY: So, Erica -- you`re right. You`re right. Erica, here`s the deal.
Leeann is on to something here. It reminds me, this is going to sound bizarre, the excessive religiosity and the excessive punitive parenting
reminds me of like exercise bulimia. It`s a good activity exercise, but when you take it too far, it becomes an illness. In this case, the
parenting is an illness. The religiosity is an illness and taken it to a point where they nearly killed their children.
ERICA AMERICA, Z100: Yes. I mean, these are very sick people. There`s no question about it. Court documents officials checked off the
box, so that there were mental illness present or at least the signs of mental illness.
And I completely agree. To me, what I see her is a personality disorder. Something very severe, objective compulsive disorder, where the
man or the woman, I don`t know who is the ringleader of it, takes everything they feel negative about themselves, in a very regimented way,
against these kids.
And they have a very compartmentalized minds because they were able to do it to just two of the adoptive children, while the others didn`t suffer
as much. It`s very, very sick.
PINSKY: Judy, there was a 22-year-old adult child in the house. I wonder if the adult was going to be held accountable for some of the
parents` behavior.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right, because that person is an adult and maybe they should have done something about this before this
came to light now. And what my concern is these little kids had re-feeding syndrome. They were so severely malnourished they couldn`t take in the
nutrients they were trying to feed to them in a regular way. So, we`re talking about really, really extreme abuse here.
And just like you said, Dr. Drew, sometimes people time religion to an extreme, make it a justification for egregious behavior. There was
somebody who wrote a parenting book who was very religious. This doesn`t come to mind now who that was, but they wrote a parenting book that
basically constituted abuse.
PINSKY: Oh, I remember. We had this guy on the show once. It was a guy with a big long beard. Yes. I`ll get it before we get back from the
next break. OK.
Two points I want to make. One is that the -- one of the pieces of evidence that the detectives got from these women, these parents, who by
the way felt justified in everything they had done. They were forthcoming. They were talking about their kids lying and how they were terrible and the
detectives said, exactly what did the children do? They oppressed.
When the parents couldn`t think of anything the children have done that would justify the discipline, they said, you know, there was this one
time we were driving to Colorado, and one of the girls stole a Mentos mint. We had one less Mentos mint in the car than we should have. That`s one
thing. One source of out -- yes, Leeann, hang in there.
And number two, to reemphasize what Judy said about the re-feeding. Literally, if somebody is so severely starved that they become physically,
medically ill from feeding, from getting a normal diet, they become swollen, they get kidney failure, they get electrolyte imbalances. They
could even die. These kids had that.
We`re going to stay with this story. We`re going to stay with it.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one knew exactly what went on inside the home next door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The punishment for stealing in the home is identical except with the added task of mopping the floor for 45 minutes,
followed by cleaning the tile grout for 45 minutes, or some other comparable task.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police said the Jorgs referred to the punishments as prison. Neighbors are astonished by these accusations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We never saw the older girls. We never saw the two little ones. As a father, it`s crazy, it`s sickening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, and our behavior bureau. Renee Herlocker, entertainment host and lifestyle blogger, Judy Ho is
still with us. Jennifer Keitt joins us, life coach and radio host.
And the gentleman, Judy, was Michael Pearl. That was the gentleman who wrote that crazy parenting book and was found quite justified. In
fact, I interviewed him and I asked him to show me -- he advocated using a stick to hit kids with.
I said, show me what you`re talking about? He hit my hand. My hand was sore for about three days. I kid you not. It was assault. And that
was his just sort of starting point.
Reminder, everybody, be a part of our show. Tweet us right now @DrDrewHLN, #behaviorbureau. We`re talking about the parents accused of
abusing two of their children through incredibly harsh discipline.
We do these stories for several reasons. One, to be sure that we alert people that these things happen and if you see something, say
something. You don`t let these things just fester. And you don`t allow people to hide behind religiosity if that`s their justification for what
they`re doing when it`s sick.
Jennifer, you`re nodding your head.
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. This is an outrage to me, because these parents are cowards.
Hiding behind religion in order to discipline your children is the worst act I believe that a parent can do. There are a lot of parents out
there who use their faith to inform their parenting. These people did not do that. They punished those girls with religion. That is an outrage.
That should not ever, ever happen.
PINSKY: Yes, and that, Renee, is a great way to distinguish between somebody who`s using their faith to inform a parenting style versus
somebody using hyper-religiosity, literally beating the child with their religion.
RENEE HERLOCKER, LIFESTYLE BLOGGER: Right.
KEITT: Exactly.
HERLOCKER: And you know what, though, it leads me to believe going back to the 22-year-old that is in the home, why is she covering her eyes
unless she`s part of the abuse as well. She`s an adult in the household. That should have gone to the neighbors or should have protected the older
children in this matter.
PINSKY: Renee, I agree with you. My question, let`s show off hands, put five of us up there. That`s our attempt to reach the parents for
comment. They did not respond.
We don`t know what the 22-year-old went through, herself. But how many believe she ought to be held accountable on some level? Hands?
SCHACHER: On some level, yes.
KEITT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Anybody disagree? Judy, you disagree? Judy`s up. OK. Fine.
On the phone, I have exclusively Jodi Brackett. She`s a neighbor of this family.
Jodi, thank you so much for joining us. Did this family seem peculiar to you?
JODI BRACKETT, NEIGHBOR OF PARENTS ACCUSED OF CHILD ABUSE (via telephone): Well, you know, a little bit, but, you know, you can`t judge
too harshly, but --
PINSKY: Well, Jodi, we can. That`s the point here. Had people judged a little more harshly, maybe these children would have been saved
from something.
TIM BRACKETT, NEIGHBOR OF PARENTS ACCUSED OF CHILD ABUSE (via telephone): Well, we didn`t know them very well. This is Tim Brackett.
PINSKY: Hi, Tim. Thank you for joining me.
I`m not accusing you of anything, please? I just -- this is so we can learn from this and us not -- none of us sit back on our heels next time we
see something like this.
TIM BRACKETT: Right. If we would have known anything like this was going on, we would have done something about it. But they say they adopted
the girls years ago.
I remember seeing the girls one time probably in the last two or three years. Ands that`s the only time I`ve ever seen the two older girls. Now,
the younger girls that played outside with my boys, you know, once or twice a week sometimes.
SCHACHER: Wow. Did --
PINSKY: Before you ask this, Sam, I have to ask, did you notice they were becoming malnourished or was that a recent phenomenon?
JODI BRACKETT: No, the two young girls we saw, they were fine. It was the girls we always saw. We haven`t seen the older girls for a very
long, long time. I actually -- yes, I haven`t even -- I hadn`t even seen them probably in three years?
SCHACHER: Did that concern you that you saw the younger two children playing and not the older two? And did the younger two children ever talk
to your two boys about what was going on in the household?
TIM BRACKETT: No, not at all. You know what, we weren`t close enough to know that they even had adopted the two older ones because we never --
assumed they didn`t adopt then and they were gone.
PINSKY: I understand there`s a story about a teenager who baby sat on a rainy day. Can you tell us about that?
JODI BRACKETT: Yes. That was a little odd. They were being -- the oldest was being punished outside and it was raining. And they had the
girls come and baby sit and they wanted to bring her in, but they said, no, she`s being punished so she needs to sit outside.
PINSKY: In the rain.
JODI BRACKETT: In the rain.
PINSKY: I wonder if any of my panel has a question for Jodi or Tim.
HERLOCKER: What about the 22-year-old? Did you guys have any contact with that 22-year-old adult?
TIM BRACKETT: No, not at all.
JODI BRACKETT: Nope, not at all.
TIM BRACKETT: I`ve seen her come and go. I knew she lived there. Once we heard about this, I was wondering the same thing as you, why didn`t
she do something?
PINSKY: Right, right.
JODI BRACKETT: And thinking it was normal.
PINSKY: Right. Right. That`s right.
Listen, Tim, Jodi, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you helping us trying to get our head around this story.
We are going to continue with this story for another block. I want to remind people to like us on Facebook. I`ll be honest. We have a
competition going here, guys. So, I need your help on Facebook.
Here`s how you do it if you obviously don`t know how to use Facebook. You go over and you push the "like" button. I need everybody listening to
me to please go to their computer and do that right now. We would appreciate it.
And we`ll be right back. We`re going to continue this conversation after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, our behavior bureau, Leeann, Erica, and Judy.
And you guys, I got to share with you -- Sam knows what I`m going to say, but we got this amazing tweet -- a lot of Twitter reaction. We got a
crazy tweet during the break. I want to share with you right now.
Go ahead, Sam.
SCHACHER: Yes, alarming. This is from Carolyn. She wrote in, "Strange, my sister and I were foster kids subjected to identical
punishments. Is this a pathology?"
PINSKY: Erica, I see you shaking your head know. Judy, you nodded your head. The question is --
AMERICA: No, I agree.
PINSKY: Well, but is it -- I don`t know of any pathology where people use the -- let`s describe this household which we haven`t done yet. This
woman, the mother apparently was the main perpetrator. Put up sticky pads all over the house about what the punishments were the kids were going to
be subjected to and the catch-up punishments. There was not enough time in the day for them to be caught up on all the punishments they had to do.
You see here a list of some of the things. This is just some of the things she was subjecting them to -- Erica.
AMERICA: Yes. I mean, I said it before. I mean, these parents were delusional. This is a sick personality disorder.
Like some of the criteria for obsessive compulsive disorder is exactly what you`re saying. Massive amounts of sticky notes because they can never
fill up the amount of injustices these people did by stealing a little mint. I mean, it was -- this is crazy. So, to say they`re just -- I
remember one thing that I learned in one of the many post-graduate classes that people who are, like, super, super religious to the extreme, that`s
almost a form of insanity. That`s really a kind of controversial issue --
PINSKY: No, it`s not controversial. It`s not controversial at all, Erica, because when people -- Judy, back me up on this. When people become
delusional, a lot of the delusions can surround religion. They start saying they`re Jesus. They`re the messiah. They`re all kinds of things.
And so, religious and religious focus can be part of, as you say, OCD and part of psychosis -- Judy.
HO: That`s right. It`s absolutely a common delusion theme. Here in this case what I also see is that people who oftentimes are insecure have
problems with authority, themselves.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Will bind to an authoritative figure, institution, in this case, religion and use that to justify all of their actions.
And, ironically, these parents actually took in these children because they were trying to remove them from another abusive home.
PINSKY: That`s the sad, sad, sad part about this story.
SCHACHER: And can we talk about the fact that nobody reported -- I mean, if I was one of the baby sitters or neighbors and found out a kid was
being held all night long outside in a rainstorm? I wouldn`t even treat my animal that way, let alone a child that you`re baby sitting. How did
nobody report that?
TWEEDEN: Exactly. In L.A., Dr. Drew, we say oh my gosh, it`s 55 degrees at night, bring your dog in. That`s how crazy this is that they
were allowed to sleep on a towel on the floor, like, oh, thank you, I can sleep on a towel instead of just the concrete. I mean, these people are so
insane.
You know what I said at the end of the first segment was they`re your children. You`re supposed to love, nurture, feed them, give them
everything that they need to survive. They were -- what they were disciplining them for was, oh, well, they stole stuff. Come to find out,
what did they steal? I don`t know the child was 60 pounds and was starving and she went and got a bite of food out of the refrigerator and she`s being
punished for it.
PINSKY: Yes, yes.
TWEEDEN: It`s insanity.
PINSKY: And, look -- that`s a delusion, Erica, you`re right. But also, let`s remind you, when you`re abusive with a child, I don`t care what
your defense is for being abusive to the child, you will have acting out behaviors of all sorts. And you may not be aware of them, but they will
happen.
Erica? Agreed? You can`t hear me?
Judy?
AMERICA: I just lost audio. Sorry.
PINSKY: Judy, you hear what I`m saying?
HO: Yes, I hear you, Dr. Drew.
You know, to address what Leeann said, yes, parents are supposed to protect, nurture, love their children. We also know that when parents are
not the biological parents of the children, that increases the abuse potential. So much higher. There is not that kind of attachment usually
for some of these parents.
TWEEDEN: And, Drew, Judy, what do you think about the 22-year-old? I mean --
PINSKY: I know.
TWEEDEN: Were they abused and were just afraid to do anything, too?
HO: I believe they were. I believe the 22-year-old was.
PINSKY: Probably. How could she live in the house and not have been? At least had a Stockholm syndrome, Sam.
SCHACHER: Is that what you think?
PINSKY: I think the 22 -- the 22 after all, still is an adult. The question becomes how much do we hold her accountable for what happened in
that household?
TWEEDEN: Yes, but if she`s been abused like that, mentally, she`s not 22.
PINSKY: Absolutely. And I think there`s a really important point here about abuse.
And abuse, let me sort of qualify it. Let me have the camera here for a second. Qualify what I mean by abuse. A situation in which a child
feels powerless and that there`s a possibility in their mind that they may be not going on, that this may destroy them, this experience.
Now, emotion abuse can make people feel that way. It doesn`t have to be an absolute reality. In this case it was. But abuse causes shattering
of the brain`s regulatory system. It causes all sorts of untoward behaviors later.
Yes, the abused child, whether it`s hit with a tennis racket or required to go run outside on a hot pavement, by the way, one of the girls
ran in bare feet in the Arizona heat and had blisters on the bottom of her feet, chronically. You make a child do that, there will be behaviors later
that are far worse than the behaviors you`re trying to get under control in the short term.
Yes, the lying will stop now, yes, the child will learn that lying is not a good thing. And that child will go do sociopathic behaviors to get
back at you. That`s always what happens.
We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty seven year old Gregory Scott Hale is in jail for killing and abusing a corpse. Hale confessed to murdering 37-year-old
Lisa Marie Hyder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She met Hale at a liquor store Friday night. The (inaudible) man confessed to killing Hyder, beheading her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told them he dismembered her body and even ate part of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was in the site where he starts blocking it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are disturbing posts on the suspect`s Facebook page.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s always been known as being into devil worshipping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a photo of him wearing a mask and holding a long blade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, murder is one thing, but that`s a little overkill.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: A little. Back with Sam, the behavior bureau, Leeann, Judy, and Jennifer. This is the story you tweet about the most today of all the
stories we`re covering. It`s an unbelievable story. Gregory Hale admitted to murdering this woman then proceeding to chop off her hands, her head,
and then police say he ate parts of her body. He got caught. This is a bizarre little twist on the story. When he asked a friend to help him bury
what remained of this poor woman. Sam, what do we know about this man from his (inaudible)?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: OK. His Facebook posts are so creepy. They actually fit the exact mind-set that you would believe
would fit the profile of a cannibal or murder. So, for example, he writes, on just one of the post, I was thinking today and wondered, if -- horrible
grammar, if someone was to become a cannibal and eat a vegetarian. What does.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: He posted this?
SCHACHER: Oh yeah. And it`s really even hard to read because he has no idea how to spell, but he says someone was to become a cannibal and eat a
vegetarian, but the vegetarian taste like the fake soy meat like they got in some fast food places? This is just one of the examples.
PINSKY: OK, Leeann.
LEEANN TWEEDEN: Gross.
PINSKY: Yeah, it`s gross, it`s -- you know, there`s another part of this guy`s story I want to share with you where he worked at one point in
a, some kind of, like, butcher shop or something and HE got fired because he was stealing the animals` eyeballs, bones, and blood. Shouldn`t that
have tipped somebody off?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Shouldn`t that have tipped somebody off that this guy -- keep an eye on this guy.
TWEEDEN: Exactly. You would think so. And even everybody that was interviewed there where he worked were like, yeah, he was a little strange.
So, that combined with, oh, hey, can I take the eyeballs and the guts and the blood and the bones you don`t -- I mean, what is somebody doing with
that? And that Facebook page, Sam, you are so right. It was so disturbing that I`m like, how did nobody.
SCHACHER: Right.
TWEEDEN: .that followed him or were friends with him even catch on? And to me, my first thought when I read this story, chopping off hands and
feet and head are usually what people do when they don`t want you to find out who that person was that they chopped up.
PINSKY: You`re right.
TWEEDEN: You get rid of fingerprints. You get rid of footprints. You get rid of the head so you can`t identify the body, but the guy was so
stupid that he asked a neighbor to go bury her behind his house? I mean, he`s insane and sick. And I`m not saying this because a lot of my friends
when I grew up, a lot of the boys used to listened to slayer, and just because you listen to death metal doesn`t mean you`re a murder.
SCHACHER: I love slayer. I still listen to slayer.
PINSKY: Of course not.
SCHACHER: Yeah.
PINSKY: Well, Sam, is a little bit, but I`m just.
SCHACHER: Oh, come on. Yeah. My parents are here. Come on, now.
PINSKY: So, I want to read you stuff off this guy`s Facebook, where he routinely joking about killing people. He put it up there I hug the people
I hate so I know how deep to dig the hole in my backyard. He also posted this, I took care of that -- for you. Erica, what do you make of that in
the shovel? Erica, come on, now. OH, Erica`s not on this panel. Jennifer, what do you say?
JENNIFER KEITT, RADIO HOST & LIFE COACH: You know, I wonder, Dr. Drew, because you know, I`m big on people having their own privacy and their own
space, but when you begin to look at Facebook pages that are that just creepy, it makes me wonder, all those people that were liking his posts,
all those people was making comments on his page, nobody had the guts to say that mans are you really serious about this?
PINSKY: Yeah.
KEITT: Where do we draw the line? How do we know when it`s just funny or when it`s just a little sick? You should turn this.
SCHACHER: When it`s this extreme, you should know. We talk about being a responsible citizen of social media. That`s when you just got to trust
your gut. When you see something like this, that`s when you should alert somebody, and I bet my life that this is not his first victim.
PINSKY: Well, that`s an interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: At 30-something years old? Come on.
PINSKY: Interesting. Judy, go ahead.
JUDY HO, PH.D.: Here`s the thing, though. Who the heck of the people who are going to be friends with these guy on Facebook, they`re probably
other like-minded individuals.
KEITT: Exactly.
HO: Possibly other Satan worshippers. And so, they`re not going to alert the media on this one, and when I was looking through his Facebook, I
realized that his very first, one of his earliest posts within 2011 and it was a song about cannibalism. So, this is not a new belief for him. I was
trying to see, like, was there a breaking point where he started to go this way? No.
TWEEDEN: Infatuation.
HO: No, for as long as we`ve known this guy on social media, he`s been this person.
TWEEDEN: And, Dr. Drew, he`s 37. He looks like he`s in his 50s. I mean, he looks really old and terrible.
PINSKY: This is -- listen, there are dangerous people out there. They live next door to us. This woman, the woman that was killed met this guy in
a liquor store. Judy is absolutely right. The challenge of people in positions of authority, whether it is Facebook monitoring him or cops when
you called them or mental health professionals predicting that this guy is as awful as we think he is, hard to do. Believe it or not, it`s hard to do.
But we can keep an eye on this guy and we can learn from this story. Once again, there`s something to be learned here. If you meet somebody you
didn`t know at a liquor store or out public, you can look at their social media site, and learn something about them. And if you think to yourself,
I`m not so sure, or we have to keep an eye on this guy, get out of there. Get out of there. Keep this story going. We`ll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and our behavior bureau, Renee, Erica, and Jennifer. That man has admitted to killing a woman, chopping off her hands,
head, and feet then cannibalizing parts of her body. You`re looking at evil in that man. I call it what you will. Erica, you`re nodding your head
vigorously. I was anxious to have you, Erica, to talk about this, I called you out the last segment, but thankfully you`re here now.
ERICA AMERICA: Yeah, thank you.
PINSKY: But here`s the deal. I call it psychopathy which is evil people behaving evilly. It has a word, but we can use the same word, I mean
the same thing. Psychopathy is a brain problem. You`re often born with it. It`s associated with being torturous toward animals and being preoccupied
with all kinds of negative, horrible violent things as this guy was, and then killing people and not caring about it. It`s a disorder of the brain,
certain part of the brain doesn`t work very well, it has a specific pattern associated with it. But, Erica, this guy is that, again, on steroids, this
is psychopathy on steroids.
AMERICA: Yes, and if you took the words out -- I always say I`m so hesitant to call anything evil, but in this case, this is psychopathy. This
is anti-social behavior. This is no remorse. I mean, the fact that this is an element in this world. I always wanted it believe the world was really
good and like everyone could be rehabilitated, but the fact is.
PINSKY: Not this. Not this. Not this guy.
(CROSSTALK)
AMERICA: .this is personality disorders, these brain disorders like you said. The only thing I`m thinking that we can glean from the situation
is while he`s rotting in jail, doctors or specialists should just somehow interview this guy and get something about the satanic ritualistic or
rituals or on his mind to learn something from it, because this is -- I mean, a clearly a horrible situation. The red flags were everywhere.
PINSKY: Yeah.
AMERICA: Judy Ho, made the perfect point is that I don`t think there was many normal people on his Facebook. It was probably other people from
satanic.
PINSKY: Like minded -- like minded as we said, but keep an eye on these people -- can some of them are playing around. Some of them are
serious business.
SCHACHER: He could be your neighbor. I hope I don`t have a nightmare about this guy tonight, but he also idolized serial killers. He would want
to write serial killers that were currently still alive, locked up in jail and he paid homage to the ones that have passed away, and he ate his
victims. So, what does that say about his mind-set?
PINSKY: Well, Jennifer, I`ll let you.
KEITT: So, that why.
PINSKY: I`ll let you (inaudible), Jennifer, because usually when people engage in this sort of cannibalism in my experience, it`s extreme
aggression. But it`s such horrible bizarre impulse that usually cannibals are sort of trying to make sense of it, they sort of think they`re getting
magical powers or something, but the reality is it just some bizarre, bizarre aggression.
KEITT: Bingo. I think you`re hitting it right on the head, because I`m -- Satanism, worshipping Satan, it`s real. And just like we were talks
about in the other story, his faith in this thing is informing his behavior. And so, I`m wondering after he killed her, the dismemberment and
taking off pieces of her body and eating, I`m wondering is this part of some kind of ritualistic worship, if you will?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Maybe. Maybe. Yeah.
KEITT: To Satan. And you know, I`m really wondering, we have to really look at the fact that he had a religion. He had an ideology that he was
acting out on.
PINSKY: Yeah.
KEITT: And that`s real.
AMERICA: It`s a very fine line.
PINSKY: Yeah, again, it`s often a way of trying to make sense of horrible impulses rather than causing the horrible impulses. And they`re
not to be made sense of. That`s the reality. Now, you saw a picture a second ago of this poor woman, that was victim. Here`s what we know about
her. Renee, she had two kids. She lived in a housing project. She was an alcoholic. She met him at a liquor store the night she was murdered. He may
have picked her specifically because of these vulnerabilities. She probably is a single mom, stressed, drinking, and man, boom, perfect victim, Renee.
RENEE HERLOCKER, LIFESTYLE HOST: Well, no matter which way the cookie crumbles, she may not have like you said, to be able to go on to Facebook,
and see who you`re interacting with. Do some research, do some, you know, some stalking of your own in a good way before leaving somewhere with
somebody. But she may not have had that opportunity obviously because of her background, and where she was living and whatnot. But, you know, going
back to keeping an eye on this guy, Facebook at what point do we put them up on, you know, the table and say, hey, you are responsible because I`ve
been on Facebook many times. If they so much as boot me off the first minute I try to solicit or, you know, promote something to too many users
at one time, and I`m getting the boot for that. Where are the warning signals that Facebook needs to take advantage of that part?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I think that is an excellent point. Sam -- you`re my social media expert.
SCHACHER: I`m very careful about, you know, -- I don`t want it to be - - come to the point where there`s like censorship 100 percent, but I do think.
PINSKY: Not even censorship. How about just some sort of clauses of notify.
SCHACHER: I agree with that.
PINSKY: Using it to call information and notify -- I don`t know who or what. But I mean, some way of using this in a way that helps us.
SCHACHER: I agree. PINSKY: .identify and refer people who are a problem.
SCHACHER: And they definitely are, like I said earlier, quick to take down like a boob shop, but then, something like this, that could be very
alarming, you could potentially save someone`s life, where are they with that?
PINSKY: Right. SCHACHER: So, what are your thoughts on all this?
PINSKY: My thoughts on all this?
(CROSSTLAK)
SCHACHER: Can you please make sense of it.
PINSKY: Make sense of it, the fact is, there are certain things humans be there and do that are not to be made sense of and they usually come from
places of impulses and motivations that are nonsensical, irrational, and often aggressive. And the fact is, if you want to use the word evil or sin
or whatever word you want to use, we`re all talking about the same thing. I like to use words that helps me understand it clinically so I can
understand the biology. And maybe I can do something about it or maybe I can identify it or maybe I can prevent it. But it`s all the same thing and
when it unleashed on another human like this, it`s evil. God help them. I hope they throw away the book. Be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aw!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: District leaders are calling the video of 57- year-old James Lambert slapping a student with autism sickening and egregious. It happened last week Tuesday. The 10-year-old boy you saw in
the video was apparently swearing. That`s why Lambert repeatedly slapped him. The boy`s mother says it`s just not right for anyone to raise your
hand to a student, (inaudible) a special needs student.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Renee, Judy and Jennifer. The bus aide has resigned. Police say the 10-year-old in the video was restrained in a
harness, defenseless. He was making a lot of noise but he wasn`t going to hurt anybody. Defenseless against the 250 pound bus aide, child aide for
special needs children. That`s his job. Aide, it`s right there in his name. It supposed to aid the kids. Now, he`s charged with child abuse. Jennifer,
this boy is autistic. He needs skilled professionals to help him. Just because he`s making a lot of noise, he might -- for all that aide knows, he
may have had a fever or aspirin or who knows what.
KEITT: Absolutely. I have walked through with a very good friend of mine as she has been raising her autistic son. And, Dr. Drew, they need
education. I have to say this to all, I`m not a violent woman, but I would have been all up on that man. Nobody should put their hands on somebody
else`s child. I don`t care what has happening and what is going on. Anyone that is dealing with any child needs to have a full spectrum of education
including that on how to deal with autistic children. They`re not like other children. They need to be handled right. He needs to be punched in
the face. I`m sorry. Absolutely unacceptable.
PINSKY: Well, Jennifer -- Renee, I`m gonna go to you because everytime, Jennifer, says she wants to go at the guy, you seem to smile,
so.
HERLOCKER: Because I totally understand that. And I have to just question this guy`s intellect. I mean, how does he not know that there`s
video surveillance in the bus?
PINSKY: Yeah.
HERLOCKER: I mean, come on. That`s the first act. And then, secondly, let`s go back to the bus driver because if the bus driver`s hearing any
sort of communication between the man and the child or he`s screaming out saying he`s in pain, what was the bus driver doing?
SCHACHER: Why didn`t the bus driver pull over? I mean, clearly we could hear this poor child screaming in pain. So, if I was that bus driver
I would have pulled over and I would have handled that situation right away. But the crazy part of all this is, is this guy has been employed with
the district for 16 years. 16 years. And according to this record, no disciplinary record, however, there were notes on the file with regards to
previous interactions with the child.
PINSKY: With that child.
SCHACHER: Yes. Well, here`s the thing. They were filed by the mom. The mom said that he, the aide reportedly took a toy intended for show and
tell. It was in the kid`s pocket. And also, she reported that there were marks on her child`s shoulder.
PINSKY: Oh, boy.
SCHACHER: So, there was no follow up to that.
PINSKY: The mom also told a local news station that she felt betrayed by school employees and wondered why the bus driver, who wasn`t charged as
well which I think, Sam, you brought up. Judy, what do you say?
HO: Well, you know, people who work with special needs children need on-going support because it is a very, very stressful job.
PINSKY: Stressful. That`s a great point. That if the -- you know, God knows what of the stress thing. It`s not OK what he did, but the
organization should be planning for burnout, and planning for people being stressed out.
HO: That`s right. And part of what his work is, you know, is to try to discipline the child, and he went too far. He didn`t know what he was
doing, and they need to have education of how to deal with children when they are being, you know, being difficult because they`re going to be
difficult children to deal with. But what really gets me about this situation is that you know, Dr. Drew, that special needs children are
always way more risk of being abused than other children because they cannot communicate.
PINSKY: That`s right.
HO: Adequately for themselves.
PINSKY: And they`re difficult. They`re difficult, but they need skilled people around them to help them.
Two things. We`re gonna go on to a story that I urge you to stay with us to hear about. It`s -- I told, Sam, what it was actually about and she
sort of jumped out of her chair, she couldn`t believe it.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: And I`m asking you again. You guys have done a great job with our Facebook so far tonight. We`re in a competition. We need your help. Go
to our Facebook page, drewhln and click on the like. Just like what you`re seeing in this little video. We need as many likes so we can get to win our
contest, so be a part of it. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Leeann, Renee, and joining us for the first time, comedian Chinedu Unaka. Chinedu, thank you for joining us. Appreciate
this. Now, this is a former animal researcher is admitting she had an on- going what she called sexual encounter with a dolphin named Peter. She described the intimacy as precious and gentle. Here`s what.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Here`s what -- I can`t say it without laughing, but here`s what she say. Here`s what she told the BBC. Peter liked to be with me. He
would rub himself on my knee or foot or hand or whatever and I allowed that. I wasn`t uncomfortable as long as it wasn`t too rough.
SCHACHER: So, she just stood there.
PINSKY: She just stood there, and took it, so to speak. It progressed. I don`t know if you read the story at all, but it progressed to some
stimulation on her part of the dolphin because every time he`d get worked up they`d send the dolphin out to be with female dolphins. He didn`t want
the female dolphins. He wanted this lady in the bikini that was helping him learn how to speak English is what they were working on. Chinedu, your
thoughts?
CHINEDU UNAKA, COMEDIAN: I mean, personally, you know, if you`ve never been talked by a dolphin -- dolphins can be smooth, man. Dolphins got the
strongest triceps in the game. Like, you ever had a dolphin talk sweet gibberish in your ears, ladies, don`t knock it until you try it. You`ll
just never know, man. I just want to know did they do it publicly or it was like a water bed? How did this went down? How did it go down?
TWEEDEN: And did he take her out to dinner before?
SCHACHER: There you go.
PINSKY: Renee, there you go.
UNAKA: For seafood.
TWEEDEN: I swam with dolphins before on a couple different occasions, and they are very aggressive animals. I mean, they will run into you, and
sort of like.
PINSKY: Hold on, Sam. Chinedu, swimming with dolphins? Is that a new metaphor for something?
SCHACHER: Oh, come on.
PINSKY: I`m just curious. I`m just saying.
SCHACHER: Leeann.
UNAKA: It must be. I don`t want -- I`m open minded. So, I don`t want this, you know, a thousand years from now where dolphin sex is normal and
they look back at me like I was some bigot. So, hey, if you`re down with it, do your thing, man. Just use safe sex.
SCHACHER: I want to provide some context to the story. I`m no way condoning this, but they said, this was part of a project for her to teach
English to this dolphin and they spent ten weeks together.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: Sam.
SCHACHER: I`m not condoning it. Hold on. Let me finish.
PINSKY: There is something -- no, there is something delightful about the story.
SCHACHER: There is something delightful about it.
PINSKY: You swim with dolphins, Leeann. So, relax.
SCHACHER: Thank you.
PINSKY: This was a really lovely attempt to -- they are one of our closer mammalian relatives in terms of how our brains function, there was
thought maybe they could teach them a language.
SCHACHER: They became really good friends. She taught the dolphin how to say hello, triangle, a number of other words as well. And, but, also
this is the sad part. The dolphin did fall in love with her, and when they were separated, the dolphin shortly after committed suicide.
PINSKY: Yes.
HERLOCKER: That`s so sad.
PINSKY: The dolphin, Leeann, refused to breathe after this woman, the affair ended. The research ended.
TWEEDEN: Probably because she shouldn`t have, like, let it go on. I mean, come on, we don`t have sex with our dogs and we don`t have sex with
our cows and things like that. I mean, this is just not right behavior. And you would think somebody that doing a study for NASA.
PINSKY: But dolphins are mammal, though.
TWEEDEN: Yeah, but you think that a woman that is obviously educated and smart and researching this should have stepped back and realized that
that was not right. You probably could tell the dolphin was smart, maybe falling in love with her if that`s what you`re going it call it, but that`s
not right behavior.
PINSKY: Renee, I think it does bring up an ethical issue of our relationship with animals.
SCHACHER: Of course.
PINSKY: Again, it`s not ill intentioned. It`s kind of something sweet about it, but the fact is, there are boundaries being violated.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: I`m just saying. And our, how we -- you know, what we do in our animal research needs to be thought through better, don`t you think?
HERLOCKER: Well, of course. And obviously, you know, I`ve had some dud relationships then. At least she`s choosing an intellectual animal to keep
it going, but I mean going back to that tweet we just saw, poor dolphin, poor dolphin -- he was having the time of his life.
UNAKA: Right.
HERLOCKER: He was loving it.
PINSKY: All right, as they say.
HERLOCKER: You have to have a line in the sand.
PINSKY: Would you rather be pulling a sled that did it on her have been this dolphin. That`s all I`m saying. OK. Guys, thank you. I want to
thank our audience for having come through for us on Facebook tonight. With the like, we`re doing good, we`re not winning. We need your help some more.
So, please get in there, like us on Facebook @drdrewhln. And please DVR us right now, then watch us anytime. Forensic Files begins now.
END
