Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Militants Take More Territory; Fight for Baghdad; U.S. Naval Assets Mobilized; U.S. Consider Iran Help in Iraq; Supreme Court Hear Online Threat Case

Aired June 16, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Just 54 years old. What a loss.

All right, thanks so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR. Luckily for you, Michaela Pereira will be back tomorrow. "Legal View" with Brianna Keilar today starts right now.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Militants on the move in Iraq, fighting their way towards Baghdad at this hour. So what happens if they make it to Iraq's capital city? We dig into the possibilities this hour on CNN.

Plus, American troops in and around Iraq right now and hundreds more headed to the region. We will go live to the Pentagon to get the latest on U.S. involvement in the crisis in Iraq.

Hi, everyone. I'm Brianna Keilar, in today for Ashleigh Banfield. It's Monday, June 16th. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Hundreds more U.S. troops are moving into striking range of Iraq today, but whether and how and when they'll respond to the bloody upheaval there still unknown and may not - that may not have been decided. The amphibious transport ship Mesa Verde carried 550 Marines and a fleet of tilt rotor aircraft into the Persian Gulf, joining a force that also includes the aircraft carrier George H.W. Bush. The Pentagon says those ship, troops and planes will give the president options to protect American citizens and interest should he choose to use them. Secretary of State John Kerry was asked today whether air strikes are one of those options.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, they're not the whole answer, but they may well be one of the options that are important to be able to stem the tide and stop the movement of people who are moving around in open convoys or trucks and terrorizing people. I mean when you have people murdering, assassinating in these mass massacres, you have to stop that and you do what you need to do if you need to try to stop it from the air otherwise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: The pressure shot up dramatically over the weekend as more Iraqi territory fell to Islamist militants. And chilling photos emerged, purportedly of ISIS fighters executing large numbers of Iraqi security forces. ISIS stands for Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, which is exactly what these militants want.

I want to go now straight to Baghdad and CNN's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson.

Nic, Iraq's government talking pretty tough, but what's the reality there?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, their air force says that they've killed 200 ISIS fighters. The reality is, ISIS is still taking territory on the ground. Two town (INAUDIBLE) Diyala province. A massive military base in Baquba. That's 45 minutes' drive from Baghdad. Tel Afar, in the north of the country, that seems to be some sort of a mopping action for them. They swept by it, left it alone, realized they had to go back for it and went and took it.

So ISIS is still a momentum and a force. Their aim is to get here to the capital, encircle Baghdad. Earlier this year, they already took Fallujah and parts of Ramadi. Fallujah itself, again, about a 45 minute drive from Baghdad. So the momentum does seem to be with ISIS, but the government is talking tough and it has recruited a large number of fighters that have - that have fed into existing Shia militias. We're told that these will fight under the direction of the Iraqi army, though, Brianna.

KEILAR: Forty-five-minute drive from Baghdad. Momentum in favor of ISIS. What's being done to shore up the U.S. embassy in Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Well, some of the staff are being moved out. They're being moved, some of them, to the south of Iraq, to Basra. That's a Shia dominated area. That's relatively safe. Some are moving to Adbil (ph) in the north. That's a Kurdish dominated area. That's relatively safe too. Some are going to Amman, Jordan. An additional hundred marines being brought in as well as the USS Mesa Verde, an amphibious docking ship. This carries about 550 Marines. And these tilt rotor B22 Osprey aircraft, which are a real strong heavy lift capability if there is a required emergency evacuation, U.S. personnel and otherwise in the country.

But the reality is, the U.S. embassy here in Baghdad has to be one of the most secure, impregnable buildings. It is - it is fortified itself. It has, of course, marines defending it. But it's inside the green zone and there's ring upon ring of security to get in that area. You cannot get even close, within several miles, unless you have a special permit to get in that area. So the building, the location, relatively safe, but it's clear all eventualities have been planned for here, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, preparing for a possible full evacuation if it's need. Nic Robertson, thank you so much.

And I am joined now by two very distinguished experts on Iraq and its troubles. Peter Mansoor is a professor of military history at Ohio State University. And before that he was a U.S. Army colonel and executive officer to General David Petraeus during the Iraq War surge in 2007. And then Christopher Hill is a former diplomat and troubleshooter who for 16 months served as U.S. ambassador to Iraq. He's now the dean of the Korbel School of International Studies at the University of Denver.

Colonel Mansoor, to you first. Can the Iraqi government defend Baghdad?

COL. PETER MANSOOR: Oh, yes. Baghdad is a huge city, seven million people. It has tens of thousands of armed Shiite militia men. It has army units there that are much better equipped and trained and with more motivation to defend the city than those up in Mosul. There is zero percent chance that ISIL forces will take Baghdad. None at all.

KEILAR: Are you as confident, Ambassador Hill?

CHRISTOPHER HILL, KORBEL SCHOOL OF INTL. STUDIES, UNIV. OF DENVER: Yes, I am. I don't think the issue is the siege of Baghdad. I think the issue is that we're looking right now at a de facto partition of Iraq with the north western part of Iraq now seemingly taken away. Already the Kurdish area is very autonomous. So those who were predicting the end of Iraq and the creation of three states are kind of seeing some of that come to pass today.

KEILAR: And you think, Colonel, that that's a reality that could stand for some time, a division of Iraq?

MANSOOR: Well, it's a danger that could stand for some time because, of course, a state controlled by these sort of extremists jihadists is the heart of the Middle East is very destabilizing to the region, could potentially serve as a base for the export of terrorism to Europe and the United States and rattles the oil market. So this is something that the Obama administration is going to have to deal with and sooner rather than later.

KEILAR: Ambassador, what can the U.S. do on maybe a diplomatic front that hasn't been an area of comfort? What about engaging with Iran on this front? Is there any value in that?

HILL: Well, I think there's several things they need to do. First of all, I'm in favor of some type of military option as well, whether drone strikes or some other form of air strikes. I think something needs to be done to push this ISIS crowd back on their heels.

Secondly, I think there needs to be a domestic political piece here. I think Maliki's kind of days are numbered. He probably needs to step down. I don't see him being part of the solution.

That said, I'd be a little careful of the notion that all of this should be placed at Maliki's doorstep. That is, he's responsible for no Sunni outreach, et cetera. In fact, the Sunnis have not exactly picked up on outreach. And the only jobs they've ever really accepted from Maliki is they want his own job. So I think there's a problem there.

And finally, I think this is very important. There needs to be a region wide approach. After all, part of the problem here is the fact that countries, serious countries like Saudi Arabia, in managing the Syria policy, have often armed some of these rather Islamist Sunni groups. And so there need to be a much stronger regional approach to this because this issue of Shia/Sunni civil war is not just in Iraq, it's going region wide.

KEILAR: And it's obviously very real. Ambassador Hill, Colonel Mansoor, thank you so much to both of you for being with us.

MANSOOR: Thank you.

KEILAR: Now hundreds of U.S. troops are headed to the Iraq region. What's next for U.S. involvement in that conflict? We will look at that straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: The U.S. is sending hundreds of marines to the Persian Gulf as the militant group ISIS marches across Iraq toppling cities as it approaches Baghdad. An amphibious warship with 550 marines is heading to the waters off the coast of Iraq to help evacuate Americans if that's need. Now, some American staffers at the embassy in Baghdad have already been moved to other Iraqi cities or even to Jordan.

And meantime, pressure is mounting on the Obama administration to take action as Iraq falls further into ISIS control. Overnight, the extremists seized another city and two villages. The red area that you see on this map shows how much of Iraq ISIS has taken over, a considerable amount. And joining me to talk about the U.S. involvement here is our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr.

What's the latest, Barbara?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Brianna.

Well, we just had an update from the military here at the Pentagon and the top spokesman for Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel says right now, at the Pentagon, there are no plans, his words, no plans for any military discussions with Iran about the situation inside Iraq. Rear Admiral John Kirby saying he's well aware of the State Department possibly engaging with the Iranians at these nuclear talks in Geneva. But for the Pentagon, right now, no plans to engage or coordinate with the Iranians in any way about military activities inside Iraq.

The Pentagon, obviously, very fraught, I would say, with anxiety about all of this at the moment. The Mesa Verde moving into the Persian Gulf with 550 marines, clearly like the other ships that are there, very capable of evacuating Americans if ordered, if it comes to that. But the Pentagon anxious about any impression -- any public impression that the military might be evacuating the embassy down the road saying there are no plans for that at the moment. No plans, but a military force, Brianna, that is very capable of doing that, being put into place just in case.

Brianna.

KEILAR: We've listened this hour, Barbara, to experts who have said they think that Baghdad will be able to hold, that the Iraqi government will be able to hold it. But, obviously, ISIS is on the march. What - what is the concern here? Is it - is it the airport?

STARR: Yes, I think that's exactly right. Look, if they have to get Americans from the embassy or American civilians out of Iraq, out of Baghdad, if, in fact, they can do it by commercial air, charter air, that sort of thing, from Baghdad International Airport, it all goes pretty smoothly. But if the airport were to come under attack, if ISIS starts shelling the airport, their -- the option to get a large number of Americans out quickly narrows very fast.

There are other Iraqi military airfields, but you would have to ensure that they are secure for U.S. aircraft to go in and out of there. So, really, if it did come to that, the fallback position would be U.S. military helicopters carrying Americans in and out -- carrying Americans out of there and bringing security forces in to protect them and then bringing everybody out by helicopter.

As I stand here and tell you that that is the, you know, backup, last ditch plan, there are no plans for that at the moment. The Pentagon says they're not evacuating the embassy. The State Department hasn't asked for it. But the basic fact is this, the U.S. military plans for every contingency and there's good reason they are putting those forces in place, they are within reach if it were to come to that.

Brianna.

KEILAR: Yeah, they need to be ready for anything and everything.

Barbara Starr, thanks so much.

And as the Obama administration mulls over how to handle the crisis in Iraq, it seems like everything is on the table. That includes working with Iran to fight back the ISIS threat, perhaps. You heard the Pentagon is not doing it. The State Department may be doing that. So just who are our friends? Who are our foes in the Middle East?

Joining me now to tackle the complicated politics in the region are CNN's Michael Holmes and Fareed Zakaria.

Michael, how realistic is that the U.S. and Iran might team up and fight ISIS together? It seems a little farfetched.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: It does, but they do have shared interests. Obviously they both are keenly anti-ISIS. And Iran has been behind the al-Maliki government really since the Americans left. A lot of people say to me that Iran owns Iraq in many ways.

It does bring you to the irony of all of this, though, that you've got an Iranian-backed government asking the United States to militarily intervene against a common enemy but one that is also fighting the Assad regime in neighboring Syria, which Iran actively supports. So it really does speak to the complexities there.

Also, if the U.S. does get involved with Iran on any level, any meaningful level when it comes to battling ISIS, what's going to be the reaction of America's allies in the region?

Israel for one would not like to see that. They have their own issues with Iran on the nuclear program and other things. Also, the Saudis, who have existential opposition to the Iranians, they won't be happy with the U.S. getting involved with Iran on any level, too, when it comes to Iraq.

KEILAR: That's Iran. Let's talk, Fareed, about the other side of the coin, Saudi Arabia. Explain the interest of Saudi Arabia in this conflict.

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": Saudi Arabia has been fueling the Sunni opposition, both to the Iraqi government but also to the government in Syria. So the Saudis have in a sense been at the heart of what one could call "a Sunni revolt." The Sunnis, remember, are a minority in Iraq, but they're a majority in the region, a large majority in the region.

And the principle Sunni power is really Saudi Arabia. It used to be Egypt, but now, with Egypt in turmoil and Saudi Arabia rich, it is Saudi Arabia. And the Saudis have, generally speaking, supported Sunni groups that are pretty nasty, quite violent, quite radical.

They have backed off of some of the most extreme versions. Remember, they famously supported what the precursors to al-Qaeda in the 1980s when they were battling the Soviet Union.

So the Saudis have always been part of the mix here, and in many ways, what you're witnessing is a Saudi versus Iran war that is being fought by these proxy groups, so that the Iranians fund certain governments and certain groups on the one side, and the Saudis fund other groups on the other side.

That piece of it is actually quite simple and strategic. It's Shia versus Sunni. It's Arab versus Persian. The part that's complex, as Michael pointed out, is that we're sort of in the middle in a somewhat incoherent way, so that when ISIS is battling the Assad regime in Syria, we sort of think that they're doing -- at least they're battling our enemy.

When ISIS crosses a nonexistent border from Syria to Iraq and battles the government of Iraq, now they're our mortal enemies, so we've got a problem here that's not just about the tactical issue. There's a strategic incoherence.

KEILAR: Yeah. Very complicated. And this is all very important context. Thank you, Michael Holmes and Fareed Zakaria, to both of you.

Now another big story today, the Supreme Court takes up a case involving Facebook. The issue? When does a threat posted on Facebook and other social media sites become a critical act? Should it be protected as free speech?

We'll be talking about that, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEILAR: You may want to watch what your post on your Facebook or Twitter accounts and that's because what you might think is a joke or a prank could be considered a criminal act. The Supreme Court has agreed to consider a case to determine just what crosses the line here.

CNN legal analyst Mark O'Mara is joining us now from Orlando. You've talked a lot about this, Mark, about cyber bullying. This is a case that involves a man who is appealing his conviction for talking about killing his wife and others on Facebook. He contends that he never intended to carry out the murder and he's already served his prison sentence.

So what is the court considering here, and what's the wider impact?

MARK O'MARA CNN LEGAL ANALYST: In one sense, social media is sort of a brave new world. It's going to bring about a lot of changes in our law, which tends to run behind it. On the other hand, if we look at this through some traditional lenses or filters at the way the law work, it sort of makes sense. I think the Supreme Court is going to do this.

You have to look at context of how he said, whether or not there's a pattern to what he said, and whether or not he had the ability.

Whether it's this guy threatening his wife or somebody across the country saying something about somebody, if in fact a reasonable person would believe that that threat is real and can be accomplished quickly, then I think the threat is going to be determined to be a criminal act and should be.

KEILAR: So if you said a "reasonable person" would determine that this is a threat, what about kind of the context here? If you write something, for instance, on Facebook, compared to if I say something to you in person or on the phone where there's more intonation, maybe you get a better sense of kind of the tone of what I'm saying, does that matter? And do you think that the Supreme Court is going to be looking at that?

O'MARA: And that's where the context that we were talking about. You have to look at it in the context of what's happening. If I say to you, Brianna, I don't like what you said here today. I have a neutron bomb I'm going to put in your mailbox. I don't have a bomb.

But if it's in context, if there's a pattern to it, if I said I'm going to threaten you and I seem to have the ability to do it, it's that very context the Supreme Court has to look at. The attorneys for this case, Elonis' attorney, say don't use the reasonable person standard. Look at him, individually. If he didn't mean it, then you can't -- then it's not a crime.

That type of a standard simply doesn't exist in our law, and I don't think should be. If in fact under the law, a judge looks at this and says, based upon context, like you say, based upon pattern in more than one event, and based upon your ability to do it, then I think that the crime can be found. The other element I think the court should look at doesn't apply in this case, but a public persona, a public figure, has less of an ability to argue against these perceived threats because, from President Obama to anybody who's a public figure, is going to get more threats than a private individual. And like you say, a letter between you and I is a lot different than a post that's out there in the public view.

KEILAR: And real quick before I let you go, Mark, is this something that could extend to e-mail?

O'MARA: Yes, without question, but understand, e-mail is -- it's still a threat between one person to the other, still a communication. It's electronic communication under that statute. So, yes, it can, but you have to look, again, at context and the pattern to see whether or not one e-mail would work. I don't think one would, but half a dozen would.

KEILAR: OK. So, and Facebook obviously more public. So, OK, Mark, thanks for breaking it down, Mark O'Mara for us.

Attorneys for former NFL player Aaron Hernandez are in court today. They're trying to get one of his murder charges dropped, and they argue that no probable cause has been established that he killed Odin Lloyd last year.

Hernandez also faces assault charges stemming from a jail fight in February and he's still facing charges for the killing of two other men in Boston in 2012.

At least 1,000 homes are being threatened by a growing wildfire in Kern County, California. This fire has burned to 2,000 acres. It's only 10 percent contained at this point. The fire started on Friday and so far officials have no idea what caused it.

And back to our top story, the growing crisis in Iraq, the militants trying to take over the country are posting disturbing videos online. These show horrifying interrogations as well as executions of captured prisoners. We'll have a look, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)