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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Trademark Protection Stripped; U.S. Captures Benghazi Suspect; Iraq Claims to Have Repelled ISIS Militants at Oil Refinery

Aired June 18, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And you may have sneaked a few peeks of him -

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: What?

BERMAN: As the guest host of Chip and Dales. Right now you're going to see it on Facebook. While you're on our Facebook page, like it too.

PEREIRA: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: New details about how U.S. commandos nabbed the alleged mastermind behind the Benghazi consular mission attack. And now new questions about just how that man is being integrated right now.

As brutal militants move ever closer to Baghdad, Iraq's prime minister says everything's under control. You know, all of this, as hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are fleeing the chaos. We're going to go live to Baghdad for what's called a reality check.

And General Motors' CEO makes another trip to Capitol Hill. It is tense. Why Mary Barra is facing even tougher questions, this time about that deadly ignition defect.

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. It is Wednesday, June the 18th and welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Our top story breaking this hour, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has just stripped the Washington Redskins of the trademark protection it's been enjoying. The loss of exclusive marketing rights to the team's logos could have a profound and massive financial impact on the team and on the NFL as well. And it just might be the catalyst that forces that team to do something many have asked them to do, change the controversial name of the team.

Let's talk about the ruling. The actual patent office ruling justified canceling the team's trademark, calling them, quote, "disparaging of Native Americans." Of course, the Redskins can appeal this. And they will retain trademark protection as they exhaust their appeals. If the team ultimately loses this legal battle, it will mean anybody and everybody can make a copy and then sell the famous logos, like the Indian chief on their football helmets. This is not the first time that the Redskins have almost lost their

trademark protection for the very same reason. Back in 1999, the patent office stripped their protection, but the ruling was overturned in 2003, because the court found that the plaintiffs were too old. Let me repeat that, the plaintiffs were too old and waited too long to file their case against the Redskins.

Well, now everything's changed because this latest case was brought by a group of Native Americans who are between the ages of 18 and 24 when this case was filed this time around. Joining me to talk about the Redskins' legal troubles is CNN's Justice correspondent Pamela Brown and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

It seemed like this was quite a surprise. Was it such a surprise? And how did this all go down, Pamela?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's certainly a landmark decision, Ashleigh. I mean some would say it's not a surprise because there has been so much political and social controversy, pressure, on the Redskins and the owner, Dan Snyder, to change the name of the team.

But, basically, let me break down what this decision means. The team can still use the name the Redskins, but now others can too, assuming that all the appeals go through and that this decision is upheld. So this means that marketers can sell Redskins T-shirts and hats. Companies can have the name Redskins as part of the company name and they don't have to pay a dime to the team. In other words, they don't have to pay any royalties because the trademark -- six trademark registrations were canceled according to this decision.

So this really hits the team in its pocketbook. It could lose a lot of money with this decision, Ashleigh. And we've reached out to the Redskins, trying to get a comment. We haven't heard back. But I can tell you, Dan Snyder, the team's owner, has been very vocal about not -- saying he's not going to change the name of the team. And he's known to be litigious. You can bet he will likely file an appeal to this decision and that, of course, is a lengthy process, could take years.

BANFIELD: OK. So speaking of the length of time, Joey Jackson, as a legal analyst this is right up your alley, nothing changes. It's not like you go to the Google and you can buy yourself a 25 cent T-shirt today.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Not just yet because what happens is, is that, you know what, pending appeal, it's not going to be enforced. And enforcement is the critical issue. So -- but this is big nonetheless, OK, and I'll tell you why. It's big because it puts public pressure and light on the situation, OK? No matter where you weigh in, some people don't think it's a big issue. But, you know what, there are Native Americans who really do. And they find this to be disparaging, to be offensive, to be derogatory. And as a result of that, that's why the patent decision came down as it has. But everything will remain in play pending appeals by the team if they choose to do that. Pamela spoke to the issue of merchandising. Very important. Why? It's

monetary. And when we talk about money, people become alarmed, particularly the team. However, even with that, I would suspect that if people try to sell logos or apparel, they're going to say that, as the team, not so fast. I have a common law right to use this name. I'm still exhausting my appeals. Slow down.

BANFIELD: I feel as though we've been in the situation where we've been exhausting the appeals for quite some time.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: And I alluded to it just moments ago, plaintiffs, first time around, too old. Plaintiffs, this time around, not so old. Not exactly sure where that makes this right.

JACKSON: OK.

BANFIELD: I don't clearly understand why ageism affects decisionism.

JACKSON: Well, what happened is, in the earlier ruling, basically what the court said is that the plaintiffs did not have standing. What does that mean in English? They don't have a proper legal basis to bring forth the suit because they were not personally impacted or affected, OK? So under the new rules --

BANFIELD: Sorry, back it up -

JACKSON: Sure.

BANFIELD: Because they're older they can't possibly have been profoundly impacted?

JACKSON: Well, it wasn't -

BANFIELD: They wouldn't have just been enduring, you know, years and years and years of offense before they finally broke?

JACKSON: You don't suspect me to support the old version, do you? I'm not nearly going to defend a court's decision.

BANFIELD: But I'm old (INAUDIBLE) -

JACKSON: No, you are young and beautiful.

BANFIELD: And I wouldn't want the white - the white honky (ph) girl team - I would be at, you know, 46-year-old, pretty offended by it.

JACKSON: No. Essentially, yes. Essentially, though, it had to do with standing. And when it relates to standing, Ashleigh, all that means is that you are not personally (ph) impacted enough to the court's satisfaction in order to bring forward the claim. But on the merits, the court ruled back then, as it did now, that it's a disparaging term that needs to be changed. And as a result, you know what, if you're going to use it, Washington, you're not going to have trademark protection. So beware, when that merchandise gets to be sold, you know what, ultimately, if you exhaust your appeals and lose them, you're going to lose a lot of money.

BANFIELD: So let me -- I'm just getting a comment, I think, from the -- is it the Washington Redskins? Let me ask my producer that's giving us a comment saying, "we've seen this story before and just like last time today's ruling will have no effect at all on the team's ownership. Of or right to use" - I'm sorry, I'm reading this as we go -- "the Redskins name and logo. We're trying to get that to you just as quickly as it's coming to us.

Quick comment on that.

JACKSON: Yes, remember this, though. A lot of people are now weighing in. Remember, we had the president of the United States weighing in on the issues saying it's derogatory, it's offensive and the Redskins need to reconsider. You have members of Congress. You have civil rights advocates. And so the climate may be right at this point, Ashleigh, for the Redskins to say, you know what, I know, as a team owner I said never will I change, but, you know what, this may just be the thing that causes the change. And so appeals go on, but maybe it won't be appealed and maybe the time is now.

BANFIELD: And that statement from the Redskins saying we've seen this story before, not with the young guns behind the plaintiff action.

JACKSON: That's right.

BANFIELD: So this could be -- who knows. It could be the (ph) different.

JACKSON: Game changer (ph).

BANFIELD: It could be a game changer. Joey Jackson, always brilliant, thank you.

JACKSON: A pleasure.

BANFIELD: Pamela, thank you. Good reporting on that as well.

BROWN: You're welcome. Thank you.

BANFIELD: So, up next, some new details about how U.S. commandos nabbed the alleged mastermind behind the Benghazi attack. Wouldn't you want to be a fly on the wall as those special ops forces grabbed that guy in his own country? He's no longer on Libyan soil, but he's not in the United States either. The intelligence gathering, the takedown, and what happens to him now, all from people who have been in that exact situation before, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Certainly wish I could say this story sounds like a spy novel or an action movie, but those things always have a lot of shooting and explosions. And what happened in Libya yesterday, from what we're told anyway, was a pretty clean operation. Not a shot fired. It was a coordinated takedown of a major terror suspect by United States special ops and the FBI. No guns, no one hurt, at least no guns going off. No Jack Bauer, no James Bond, nothing like it.

This man right now is on a slow boat. Ahmed Abu Khattalah. He was there in Benghazi in the middle of everything, if the allegations are true, when the United States ambassador and three other Americans died in that attack on the U.S. consular outpost. In fact, lots of people believe that he was, in fact, one of the men in charge, if not the big cheese. And right now he is a guest of the United States Navy and he's on board a ship headed to the United States.

Not a plane, which is quick, a ship, which is slow. And that means American investigators and interrogators have a lot more time face-to- face with their guest, Mr. Khattalah. Got so much to talk about, about what this really means, interrogating a terror suspect on board a ship. A terror suspect or a criminal suspect. And the difference, because it's big, it's vast and it can make all the difference.

The Libyans want him back. They want him to stand trial there on Libyan soil. What are the odds that's going to happen? And where this person really is on the terror spectrum too. All of that coming up.

But first, here is the lowdown. The tick tock on how this operation went down, the arrest of a suspected Benghazi attack mastermind from our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ahmed Abu Khattalah was lured to a location south of Benghazi, U.S. officials from multiple agencies tell CNN. Army Delta Force commandos, FBI and intelligence agencies were watching and waiting for days. Khattalah, a key operative in Ansar al Sharia, the group the U.S. blames for the 2012 attack on the U.S. compound in Benghazi. Intelligence gleaned from local Libyans helped draw Khattalah to the location.

U.S. commandos captured him with no shots fired, no one getting hurt. A surprising feat, one former Libyan intelligence official tells CNN, because Khattalah usually surrounded himself with guards. U.S. commandos whisked him to a Navy ship in the Mediterranean to begin undergoing questioning for his role in the attack and anything else he knows about terrorist activity. Officially, the Pentagon will say little.

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not going to get into specifics on the actual execution of the operation.

STARR: President Obama touted the capture.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's important for us to send a message to the world that when Americans are attacked, no matter how long it takes, we will find those responsible and we will bring them to justice.

STARR: But some wonder why it took so long, when journalists like CNN's Arwa Damon were able to find and talk to Khattalah more than a year ago. ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We met with Ahmed

Abu Khattalah in public at the coffee shop of a well-known hotel here in Benghazi for around two hours. He seemed to be confident. His demeanor most certainly not that of a man who believed that he was going to be detained or targeted any time soon.

STARR: So, how could CNN get to Khattalah and it took U.S. commandos over a year to find him?

KIRBY: And in order to do this safely, effectively, efficiently -- nobody got hurt, by the way -- that takes time to plan. That takes a lot of information gathering and we did this in a very stealthy way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: So, who were the men that grabbed Khattalah? Delta Force is part of the joint special operations command, one of the most secretive organizations in the U.S. military. The same organization that sent commandos to get Bowe Bergdahl back and to go kill Osama bin Laden.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: All right, Barbara Starr, thank you for that.

Barbara Starr, reporting at the Pentagon.

And with me right here is the former United States attorney general, Mike Mukasey. Also along with us, Bob Baer, national security analyst and former CIA operative himself, and former Navy SEAL member of SEAL Team 8, Christopher Heben.

Judge Mukasey, I'd like to begin with you. First and foremost, this man is on board a United States ship, presumably in international waters, although his location's unknown at this point. And as I mentioned, it is a slow boat to the United States of America. What can Americans do to integrate? What can't Americans do?

MICHAEL MUKASEY, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, Americans can do pretty much whatever it takes so long as they don't engage in tactics that violate U.S. law like torture.

But they can interrogate him for as long as it takes to get necessary intelligence. And then turn him over to a so-called "clean team" of FBI agents and then give him his Miranda rights. In other words, he should be interrogated by intelligence people first so that we get whatever we can and for as long as it takes.

BANFIELD: What are the Department of Justice capture and interrogation protocols? Because if you arrest me for a crime in the United States, you don't have the luxury of interrogating me if I say I want a lawyer.

MUKASEY: The Department of Justice protocols are not really what's relevant here. What's relevant --

BANFIELD: He's headed to civilian justice.

MUKASEY: I understand that.

BANFIELD: You're telling me this is a nether world?

MUKASEY: Correct. It's not a nether world. It is a world with rules, but the rules are not the rules that apply to a civilian prosecution. The rules are the rules that apply to intelligence gathering.

And we can take as much time as we need to do that. And then go in and give him his Miranda rights, get whatever statements he wants to make after hearing those, so long as the people who bring the prosecution and handle the prosecution do not have access to the information that was gotten during the intelligence part of the interrogation.

There's nothing wrong with doing that.

BANFIELD: And, just so I'm entirely clear, the rules of the interrogation process on board that ship are governed by whom?

MUKASEY: By us.

BANFIELD:: And when you say us, which department of us? The United States of America?

MUKASEY: The United States of America. The intelligence-gathering agencies. Whether it's those associated with the Department of Defense, or the CIA, or some combination, or combination that includes the FBI.

The FBI is now an intelligence-gathering organization, in addition to a law-enforcement organization.

BANFIELD:: And Bob Baer, as a CIA operative yourself, I know that you've been present for some of these interrogations, et cetera. You've been listening to Judge Mukasey outlining the conditions on board the ship where Ahmed Abu Khattala currently is.

Can you walk me through some of the things that are likely going on right now, the kinds of questions, the kind of circumstance he's in?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: He'll probably be confronted by I'd say a dozen people asking questions. There will be a CIA officer there who will be asking about potential imminent threats or any threats at all.

You'll have somebody from the Joint Special Operations Command looking for tactical information. You'll have an FBI agent who's looking for evidence in a trial. So they'll all be listening at the same time.

These things work very well. I've done them in the United States. I've done them in Europe. Often these guys don't talk, but when they do, there's some real gems that come out.

BANFIELD: And, you know, Christopher Heben, you're the kind of guy who went in and did this sort of operation. I'm not going to suggest for a moment you know what happened in this operation.

Guns didn't need to be blazing at this point. No night-vision goggles from what we understand.

But walk me through this as a former member of SEAL Team 8. What your pre- and post-protocols would have been, to the moment you turned over this high-value suspect to the other authorities who put him on the ship.

CHRIS HEBEN, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, this is an operation that is -- definitely has a lot of fore-planning, just like we did in the bin Laden raid. We practiced this snatch and grab for months, no question.

Delta Force is on a par with SEAL team 6. These guys are highly trained, highly intelligent, capable of functioning autonomously, but there's also very disciplined and controlled.

As a warrior at that level, you aspire to never to fire your weapon, but if you have to, you are the absolute best from a precision standpoint, selectively choosing targets. You get the picture.

BANFIELD: Do you get to ask him questions? Do you try to elicit any information you can before it gets tighter and tighter and tougher and tougher to get that information?

HEBAN: Absolutely. And what people don't realize, the FBI has been embedded. FBI has a tier-one organization too, just like Delta Force, just like SEAL Team 6, and it's called HRT.

HRT guys have been embedded with SEAL Team 6 and Delta Force for a long time. For that reason, these guys are -- the FBI guys are the best at-on scene, initial immediate interrogation.

Where the SEALs are and the Delta guys are the best at securing the scene, getting the guy, taking him into custody, and delivering him to the FBI guys.

Certainly the FBI guys can shoot, move and communicate just as well. So just like Bob said this is an all-star team from getting him to now extracting information from him.

BANFIELD: They better have the all-star team assembled back on U.S. soil.

One last, quick question to you, Judge Mukasey, and that is this. There is a memorandum that is supposed to be in place to videotape these interrogations.

Do you suspect this interrogation will be videotaped just because of the optics of what's going on and the amount of attention that will be placed on this case?

MUKASEY: It may very well be videotaped, but I don't think that memorandum relates at all to this kind of interrogation. I think that memorandum relates to interrogations for information that is going to be used in a criminal trial. BANFIELD: This is going to be a criminal trial.

MUKASEY: It's going to be a criminal trial, but the information in the intelligence part of the interrogation will not be used and cannot be used because it will come, hopefully, before he is advised of his Miranda rights.

BANFIELD: Could be more valuable than any criminal trial, right?

MUKASEY: So the two things are going to be isolated from one another.

BANFIELD: Fascinating. I could talk to you -- well, you know what? You'll have to come back, because I could talk to you for hours, and granted, this is not going to be over any time soon.

Judge Mukasey, thank you for coming in. Always great to speak with you. Also, Bob Baer and Chris Heben, thank you two for your perspective as well.

I want to take us now to another top story that we're following, and that is the fight for control of Iraq and maybe, better yet, the miles that it may take fighters to get to Baghdad.

And by the way, are the fighters actually interested in controlling Baghdad or just making a mess of it? The guerrilla tactics, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It's been a bad week, concedes the embattled prime minister of Iraq, but now -- and I'm going to quote him -- "We're on the rebound. " The government claims it has repelled an attack on Iraq's main oil refinery by the Sunni Islamist militants called ISIS, better known as Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. Iraqi forces supposedly killed 40 of them -- 40 attackers -- at the Baiji site, about 140 miles north of Baghdad.

And we also heard today from the president of neighboring Iran, who is vowing to safeguard the Shiite Muslim shrines in Iraq and, get this, at any cost. No more description on that.

It's unclear whether Iranian revolutionary guard troops are on the way or already inside Iraq or even planned, although reports certainly do suggest so, and President Obama plans to call in the leaders of Congress this afternoon as he decides whether and how to help turn back the ISIS advance, which has been alarming. Ask anyone, they will suggest so.

It does appear that the militant's momentum, though, has slowed, if not somewhat stalled, as fighters push out of Sunni-dominated northern Iraq and into the tougher lands, the Shia heartland.

Our coverage begins this hour with my CNN colleague Arwa Damon who's in the northern Iraqi city of Erbil. And I'm also joined here in New York City by CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona. And from Washington, Ryan Cooper is the national correspondent for TheWeek.com and had some pretty interesting perspective on how all of this could go down without American shots being fired. Get to that in a moment.

First, right in country with Arwa Damon, Arwa, let me just get to something that happened specifically today, and that was a bombing inside of Baghdad, which has alarmed a lot of people, perhaps many Baghdad residents not so surprised by that kind of thing.

But what Nouri al-Maliki said in response to that attack, and here's the quote, "What happened was a catastrophe, but not every catastrophe is a defeat."

So what exactly is he saying, that they are not only stabilizing but on the offensive, or that they can just withstand this kind of thing?

DAMON: Well, that's effectively what the prime minister is at the very least trying to claim at this stage, that, yes, the ISIS offensive may have caught them by surprise, and, yes, it may have started out as a catastrophe, but now the Iraqi Security Forces are basically on the rebound from that.

He was talking much before about the bigger picture of what's happening, seemingly trying to put forward a solid position, perhaps even ease the fears of so many of his citizens.

But those words are not going to mean much unless the situation is brought under control, and that most certainly is not going to be achieved by mere military means. And the statements by the Iraqi government do need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Despite regaining control over the oil refinery in Baiji, two employee tell CNN that there are still heavy clashes ongoing there, and that it is, in fact, under the control of is and the other Sunni groups here.

A population in Iraq that has not really been spoken about, Ashleigh, have to say, Iraq's Christian minority, we just visited a small Christian enclave that is just 10 minutes away from the ISIS front line, outside of the city of Mosul, where this all began.

Their shops are mostly closed. Their owners either fled or they haven't bothered to open because there's no business and no power. Citizens themselves have begun arming themselves, trying to conduct their own patrols to secure the town, because they don't believe anyone is going to come to their assistance at this stage, although they are also being protected by the Kurdish force, the Peshmerga.

You have an entire nation at this stage, Ashleigh, that is living in complete and total fear of what the future may hold, a nation that has already been through so much violence.

BANFIELD: Arwa, stand by with that exact comment, I want to turn now to Colonel Francona with regard to this, because, Colonel, look, we've watched this very fast march towards Baghdad. And there are a lot of security analysts who say ISIS doesn't have any interest in controlling Baghdad; they just want to wreak havoc. They just want to pour guerrilla warfare throughout that city and make that place completely miserable.