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Dr. Drew

New: Stepmom Of Basement Boy Arrested

Aired June 26, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGINVIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a man learns on TV that his missing son, gone for two weeks, is safe and sound.

NANCY GRACE, HLN: We`re getting reports that your son has been found in your basement.

Sir?

PINSKY: Hear more from the dad in minutes.

Plus, hot car death outrage. Forgotten backseat babies are more common than you think. We`ve got another shocking case for you. And I`ve

got something to say about it.

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And welcome.

My co-host, Samantha Schacher, joins us tonight.

And we have breaking news in the case of the boy found in his father`s basement.

Sam?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes. And we`ll hear from that father, too, Dr. Drew, very shortly.

PINSKY: First, as Nancy Grace would say, bombshell tonight! Her interview with the father of the 12-year-old boy who had been missing for

11 days, the boy was found. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I am not certain that the investigators, they may have made contact with the parents. I would hope that the father, who

is now doing a show on Nancy Grace, someone would interrupt his show and advise him that we -- the location you just left, your home, your son was

downstairs.

GRACE: We are getting reports that your son had been found in your basement.

Sir? Mr. Bothuell, are you --

CHARLIE BOTHUELL, FATHER: What?

GRACE: Yes. We are getting reports that your son has been found alive, in your basement.

BOTHUELL: What?!

GRACE: Yes. That`s -- if you can hand me that wire very quickly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar from AnahitaLaw.com, Michelle Fields, correspondent with PJ Media, and Evy Poumpouras, former special

agent with the Secret Service.

And Sam has more. Tell us the latest.

SCHACHER: Yes, breaking news, Dr. Drew. So, Charlie, the little boy, his stepmother was just arrested on unrelated weapons charges. Also, Child

Protective Services have removed two other kids from the home, ages 2 and 4. They are the biological children of Charlie`s father and his

stepmother.

And also, little Charlie has spoken with the police as well as child psychologists and he may be speaking with the police again, as early as

tomorrow morning.

PINSKY: And as we said, Nancy Grace did another interview with the dad tonight. I want you to see what he told her. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you just tell me whether you have seen little Charlie yet?

BOTHUELL: I -- I have not.

GRACE: I know that`s got to be breaking your heart. Why won`t police let you see the boy? Where is he?

BOTHUELL: You know, I`m breaking the no comment rule, but I was briefly on the phone with him when he called my mother, and I need to go

now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Police told CNN that Charlie`s dad is not allowed to have contact with him during the investigation.

Michelle, does that mean anything to you?

MICHELLE FIELDS, PJ MEDIA: Well, you know, this whole story is just so bizarre, because authorities went and looked around the house. They

investigated it and they did it multiple times.

PINSKY: They brought dogs in, too.

FIELDS: Yes! And they didn`t see this boy.

The good thing is that he`s alive, he`s healthy. Now, the next step is figuring out, who knew he was there and why was he there.

PINSKY: Well, that`s the big -- that`s what we`re all scratching our head about. That`s why everyone`s jumping to all sorts of conclusions.

Which is what -- how do we make sense of this thing. The kid is in a basement, boarded up in a room or behind a barrel. The dad seems to know

nothing about it, is desperate to find out what is wrong with this child, the whole thing goes down on television.

Anahita, a case like this, if dad were found to be involved in locking the child in that room or in the basement for some reason -- I assume we`ll

figure out -- what kind of charges would the adult face?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Well, definitely, that`s going to be some type of child abuse, child neglect charges, Dr. Drew. But right now,

I`m just focused on the child, and thank goodness he was found. He`s OK. And I agree, there are a lot of unanswered questions at this point in time.

But we need to just wait and let the facts play out.

The father has not been charged with anything yet. The police have not arrested him. But I can say, if I was his attorney, Dr. Drew, I would

tell him to keep his mouth shut. Why do we see this with individuals that are potential suspects in cases? There`s no reason he should be talking to

the media, to Nancy Grace, to anybody, because all that does is give the media fuel to speculate and ammunition to go and convict him.

PINSKY: Well, maybe in this case, he`s not been accused. He`s -- no one is pointing a fighter at him.

SEDAGHATFAR: He`s a potential suspect, though. And you know how frustrated --

PINSKY: But apparently he`s not. Apparently, he`s not a potential suspect.

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, not yet.

PINSKY: And I guess lawyers always say the same thing, which is shut up, no matter what.

SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly, no matter what. He`s the father.

PINSKY: Exactly. Let us speak on your behalf. You guys get to do all the talking.

SEDAGHATFAR: And I love to talk.

PINSKY: Evy, the dad took a polygraph which apparently was inconclusive and the mom refused to take it. Does that tell you anything?

EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: I`ll tell you this, I used to give polygraphs, they can come up inconclusive. It doesn`t mean someone`s

guilty or innocent, it just the way it happens sometimes. Somebody can be extremely nervous or agitated or it could be the examiner themselves.

The mother not taking a polygraph, could that be a sign of deception? Possibly. But there are some people who are just smart and they say, no, I

don`t want to take a polygraph, I`d rather not. And I think that`s OK, too.

PINSKY: Next up, we`re going to hear more from the dad and our behavior bureau.

And later, a mother is arrested for ignoring a physician`s advice about exactly how to care for a newborn and what to feed the newborn and to

take the newborn to the hospital, none of which did she do. And she loses custody of the child. We`ll tell you that story and many more, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are getting reports that your son has been found, alive, in your basement.

BOTHUELL: What?

REPORTER: Is there any reason to believe that some adult had to know Charlie was in that house?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will tell you, we`re not ruling that out. It would be hard for me to sit here and tell you that someone didn`t know that

Charlie was there.

REPORTER: You said that Charlie could not have erected this barricade himself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no way in my judgment. I don`t see how he could have. We`re talking about a five-gallon drum, we`re talking about a

12-year-old child.

REPORTER: Did he look like he was hungry or what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he indicated that he was hungry. Certainly, I saw evidence that there was food around the area where he was hiding. If

we, through the course of our investigation, determine that there`s evidence of child abuse, then we will -- our investigation will take a turn

in that direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam.

A 12-year-old boy missing for 11 days, found alive yesterday. His dad found out about it, live during a Nancy grace appearance.

Let`s bring in the behavior bureau: Kirsten Haglund, former Miss America, founded the Kirsten Haglund Foundation, Jacinta Jimenez, clinical

psychologist, and Evy Poumpouras stays with us.

And, of course, you can be part of our show by tweeting us right now @DrDrewHLN #BehaviorBureau. We will -- we got somebody scanning through

our Twitter feed all show along, we`ll put them up here as they come in.

Jacinta, help me understand. Again, every night, I have trouble getting my head around these stories. Can you think of a condition, (a), a

circumstance in which a 12-year-old, he`s not a 6-year-old, a 12-year-old, would hide on his or her own like that, (a), or, (b), an adult would help a

child do that? I can`t even imagine a circumstance.

JACINTA JIMENEZ, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I`m really racking my brain here and I can`t really think of anything off the top of my head

where a child would voluntarily hide themselves like that. There`s -- it`s questionable.

PINSKY: And the boy`s grandma, the son`s innocence was absolutely certain in her mind. Here`s a bite from her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son has nothing to do with this. I know my son. Somebody had little Charlie.

The police came here. I was here one day. They went all over the house. They search and search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Kirsten, do you believe grandma?

KIRSTEN HAGLUND, FORMER MISS AMERICA: You know, I do tend to believe the grandma and the fact that she`s proclaiming her son`s innocence. I

mean, we`ve seen so much evidence throughout his television appearances, his responses with reporters. The fact that a report came out that the day

before Father`s Day, he was rushing to get home from work because he wanted to spend time with his son.

I think he has proved that he loves his child very much. Other than that, young, we weren`t into interviews with Charlie, little Charlie. And

we weren`t in there when the child psychologist was speaking to him.

So, we don`t know what his side of the story is. But I think, you know, the father has not been charged with anything, and I think it`s

pretty clear right now at least that this is a father who absolutely loves that child.

PINSKY: Well, let me bring in my forever skeptic.

Evy, the investigator that doesn`t believe in having any emotion around circumstances like this. You understand we`re having trouble with

this one. You get it and yet your dispassionate mind, does it tell you anything different?

POUMPOURAS: I think, with this situation, that the key is the boy. You just have to interview the boy and find out what he says.

PINSKY: How do you know -- how do you get a 12-year-old to -- first of all, if he`s been colluding with an adult, how do you get a 12-year-old

out of that sort of enmeshment? And how do you know a 12-year-old is going to tell the truth?

POUMPOURAS: You get a good interrogator, and a good interviewer who can understand the child and speak to him and connect to that child in some

way. You build that relationship, that rapport, that trust and you do what investigators have done, they`ve separated the child from his family

members. That is smart, because you don`t want him to collude, you don`t want the family member, if someone is working with that child, to reinforce

the story. You want to take the child, isolate him, establish a relationship, and break him down to the point where he`s opening and

telling you the truth.

PINSKY: That`s nice. If my kids ever -- if my kids ever need to be interrogated, I want to be sure I`m breaking them down.

Sam, do you want to comment on that.

SCHACHER: Yes. No, I mean, it just doesn`t add up, Dr. Drew. There`s way too many unanswered questions. This boy was found behind this

makeshift barricade, that you saw in the earlier package, that people don`t believe he was able to put together himself. He was found with all sorts

of food. He was found with chicken and Gatorade and soda and cereal.

And, I mean, I definitely agree with Kirsten in the sense that yes, his father was frantic, going door to door, making flyers, but something

just doesn`t add up.

PINSKY: That`s right. Lots of questions -- and, Jacinta, anyone can imagine us sitting with that father during that interview on Nancy, you`re

expecting an interview, and all of a sudden somebody tells you the thing you`ve been hoping for, for a week comes true, how are you supposed to

react?

JIMENEZ: Yes, I think a lot of people were anticipating an emotional reaction, but in my mind, from a psychological perspective, there`s a thing

called acute stress reaction and this happens when people are told traumatic or intense news or experience something. And what comes along

with that is dissociative symptoms, kind of an unresponsive emotional reaction, and they can have really flat affect, which is what we saw in

him.

So, it`s hard to speculate if that was weird behavior or not, because it could have been an acute stress reaction.

PINSKY: Everyone`s first reaction is disbelief and with that disbelief goes a certain amount of disconnect. And it takes a variable

amount of time to get back in your body and process what`s going on -- Evy.

POUMPOURAS: Just from the standpoint of assessing the father`s behavior, it`s very difficult to tell whether he is being truthful or

deceptive. It`s difficult.

You need some time to analyze everything he`s doing, because from one perspective, there is that shock where he`s kind of dumbfounded and

confused, and from the other perspective, someone can be an extremely good actor, as we`ve seen with other deceptive people in the past. So, you

can`t tell from what we`ve seen.

PINSKY: Next, more on this breaking news. The basement boy`s stepmother has been arrested, as we`ve reported.

And later, police say a nanny locked a child in a sweltering car, just like the father that cooked his son. This is a nanny here that did that,

and she did this so she could go shoplifting. That`s right. Back with that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: There was deeper concern, perhaps about a homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You broke my heart with that.

REPORTER: Tell me about your range of emotions, based on what the police --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought my son was dead, man.

REPORTER: Have you seen your son?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). No, I haven`t.

REPORTER: Do you know where he is?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don`t. No, I don`t. My wife, she left -- they wouldn`t let her in the house. But I want to see my son.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Anahita, and Evy. Also joining us, Claudia Jordan, model and actress.

We have breaking news in the case of the boy discovered in his father`s basement, 11 days after he had gone missing. And tonight the

stepmother is in police custody and the CPS has removed two other children from the home. Claudia, this is your first take on this. Any thoughts on

the video we just saw of that dad.

CLAUDIA JORDAN, MODEL/ACTRESS: I think it`s hard to fake that kind of emotion, although we have seen that in the past. I mean, the father seemed

genuinely hurt. I do agree there are some things that are not adding up, the five-gallon drum and all that.

PINSKY: Yes. And, you know, Sam and I were in the makeup chair sitting next to each other going, God forbid someone should put a camera in

our face and examine every move we make, particularly when we`re in an intense situation. You can second-guess everything, counselor.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right. That is so true, Dr. Drew. I agree with you on that. And during the break, I was reading some of the tweets of your

viewers, and a lot of people are skeptical of this dad based upon his reaction.

But I don`t think we can make a conclusion just based on that, because you always tell us, people react differently to different things. We talk

about people who grieve. People grieve differently. Let`s step back, wait for the facts to come out, and we can`t judge this father.

PINSKY: Anahita, I`m going to remind you of that when we talk about the dad who put his kid in the car and reacted when he found the kid dead

in there all day overheating, his reaction was hard to understand too, but people are questioning that.

So, again, it`s easy to be judge and jury, but God forbid, any of us are in that situation.

SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.

PINSKY: And when this dad came home, as you saw, after having done Nancy Grace`s show, he was greeted by just tons of reporters. Take a look.

Michelle, do you feel as though -- I`m sorry, Anahita, no, Evy, I want to get you.

Do you feel as though the media has contributed in any negative way to this story? After all, I think this kid was perhaps found because of the

media influence.

POUMPOURAS: Yes, I do think, look, the media is pretty harsh, but I think with the father, why is he speaking to the media? You know, somebody

should advise him not to do that. And that`s fine.

But I do feel bad for the father that the media is kind of on him. You see him having that background. But at the same time, you want to say,

what are you doing going to the media.

I want to point one thing out, and I`m not saying this father had anything to do with anything here, but sometimes signs of deception, when

you have deceptive people, what they do is they are very overt. They want to come out very openly and try to come in front of the problem --

PINSKY: So let me understand --

(CROSSTALK)

POUMPOURAS: I`m not saying that`s here with this father.

PINSKY: I`ve heard this before.

POUMPOURAS: In general terms.

PINSKY: Anahita, they give too much.

SEDAGHATFAR: And I understand he`s not a suspect, so I wanted to correct myself, but you never want to go out and speak to the media,

because we know the media will take one reaction, just like we saw, and run with it. And that just creates speculation. And that`s the worst thing

that can happen in investigations like this.

PINSKY: Samantha?

SCHACHER: Yes, I have a question for Evy, actually. Because Evy, I was looking at her Facebook in between the break, and a lot of people are

bringing up the fact that his polygraph test was inconclusive.

Now, what they don`t know is he was questioned for eight hours prior to taking that test. So if he was really tired, if he was frustrated,

would that have affected the results and made it inconclusive?

POUMPOURAS: Yes. I`m going to say this, if they interviewed him for eight hours prior to giving him his polygraph, shame on the police. That

is not how you do it. You do not do that to someone, because you sensitize that individual.

The proper way to give a polygraph is you do the rapport building, ask your basic questions, hour and a half, two hours, then you submit the exam.

So if they did do an interview, eight hours, then gave a polygraph, and it`s inconclusive, then you know what? That`s on the police.

PINSKY: Sounds like it should be inconclusive.

Claudia, last thought?

JORDAN: And as far as him going to the media, this is not a professional media-savvy type of guy. I mean, this guy, he was missing his

son for 11 days and he`s not been accused of anything. So, let`s not rush to judgment.

And the media is at his house, much like the paparazzi. He was ambushed, and we`ve got to kind of keep that in mind. What would you do in

that situation, being emotional?

PINSKY: Yes. And in a way, I don`t want to say Nancy ambushed him, not that she intentionally put him in an ambush situation, but who expected

this to happen? I mean, if somebody were to tell me something stunning right now, it would take me a while to understand it.

Next up, we are learning more about the father of the baby who died in the hot car. And we have other examples for you.

And later, a mom has been jailed for feeding her newborn the wrong formula. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That 22-month-old boy spent seven hours in his father`s parked car, on a day when the temperatures peaked to 92 degrees.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If that little boy had been in that car, all those hours as they say he is, it would have smelled so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As more details come out about this case, the more shocking it seems to become.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no way that he could have even missed, right in the center of the backseat, someone being in that car accident.

There`s no way, even with it facing backwards, that he would not have known. So, he knew the baby was in there. He put the baby in there. Him

not noticing that, I thought, right from the very beginning, was B.S.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Kirsten, Jacinta, and Michelle.

We`re talking about a father charged with having murdered his own son. The boy died of hypothermia. This case is emotional for all of us. He was

trapped in a car for seven hours, having been, we think, forgotten there or left there, essentially.

SCHACHER: No.

PINSKY: Sam says no. It looks like an accident.

But as more evidence is coming out, people are starting to question this father`s innocence.

And, Michelle, by all accounts, everything we know about this father, Ross Harris, he`s a loving father, so what possibly would be the motive to

kill?

FIELDS: Maybe he didn`t want to be a father anymore. Maybe he thought it was too much of a responsibility.

If you look at how this all went down, it looks as if this was murder. I mean, there`s no question that it was murder. He went to the car, at

lunchtime. If he had gone to the car, it would have smelled, he would have known that that child was in there.

He says that he forgot. He thought he dropped the kid off at day care. Well, if he dropped the kid off at day care, why didn`t he go to day

care after work? He just kept driving. He wanted to kill that baby and that`s what he did.

PINSKY: But, Jacinta, I get emotional talking about this case, because I don`t understand what could make a father want to do that. I

can`t get my head around it.

JIMENEZ: Yes, I feel the same way as you, Dr. Drew. It`s really hard for me, from a psychological perspective, to get my head around. And when

I compare it to other cases, in which -- and researchers examine fathers who kill their children, they usually find that fathers do it in a violent

way, usually commit suicide after, the father does, and ultimately dispose of the body far away. This doesn`t match this pattern at all.

PINSKY: Yes, that is the pattern, the only one I`ve ever come in contact with. Although Evy, I think it`s my next block with me, says

otherwise.

Sam, it`s the only thing I`ve ever seen men do, although they do it in sort of more diabolical way than women, this is -- unless he had some

terrible history -- I mean, I`m going to tell you -- do we have that story about the other, the nanny? Do you that story?

Let`s put that up. I`m gonna show you another story. This is another case of a child left in a hot car. It`s a nanny left a 3-year-old girl

strapped in her car seat while she went to target. There`s the nanny, it was 88 degrees outside, 100 or more in the car. Within a half an hour,

thank God, someone saw the girl and called the cops. The nanny was arrested for having left the child alone. Now, this nanny went into the store, into

the target, so she could shoplift. That`s insane. And the lawyer tries to use a mental health sort of a defense, saying she had an impulse disorder.

Now, Jacinta, impulse disorder, whatever, you know I`m sure they`ll try to say that she`s ill. But it`s insane! That makes sense to me. A person doing

an insane thing, doing lots of insane things, over a long period of time, and this is just another insane thick she did, yes?

JIMENEZ: Yes. She has a history of criminal offenses before, and it`s not surprising that this happened. Whereas the other case, it doesn`t -- it

just is so different. It doesn`t add up.

PINKSY: It`s so different. Sam, you say no?

(CROSSTALK)

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: Dr. Drew! I mean.

PINKSY: Sam.

SCHACHER: I mean the bombshell, to use Nancy Grace`s term, the bombshell of the night, or as of yesterday, was the fact that the police

found in his computer that he was searching, how long does it take for a dog to die in a hot car. Right before this happened? This is way too

coincidental and this guy is guilty.

PINKSY: Or Kirsten, it is a coincidence.

SCHACHER: Oh, come on!

MICHELLE FIELDS: Why would he be searching that? How why would he be searching how long it takes for an animal to die in the car?

SCHACHER: Thank you. FIELDS: Because he was trying to kill the child!

(CROSSTALK)

PINKSY: I want to get on Michelle`s hard drive and see if I find anything in there that might make me go, why was she doing this? What was

going on, and what a coincidence.

FIELDS: I can assure you, I am not looking up how long it takes to kill someone or an animal, Dr. Drew.

PINKSY: I hope not, I trust not, but, Sam, not so much.

SCHACHER: Of course not.

PINKSY: Kirsten, what say you?

KIRSTEN HAGLUND: Me? Yeah, no, I mean, I was really eager to give this father the benefit of the doubt, like so many have been coming out and

petitions have been filed to remove the murder charge, of other parents who have made this exact same mistake, good parents, you know. But then that

search came out and that looks fishy. I mean, there`s a lot that`s been revealed. I mean, remember with Casey Anthony and those Google searches

came up and she was researching on how to, you know, kill her child. I mean, gosh, you know that looks very, very suspicious. So, and the fact

that the investigation is moving very quickly now, that these -- you know, everyone who is involved is saying, we have the evidence to prove this is

about something more. So, we`ve got to wait for those answers.

PINKSY: You are right. That`s the one thing that gives me real significant pause, is how the police are behaving. They`re behaving in such

a way as though they really know something. And so, Michelle, maybe people are.

FIELDS: And the Google search! Dr. Drew, you really think that`s a normal Google search?

SCHACHER: I know. What the heck!

PINKSY: No, I don`t think.

(CROSSTALK)

FIELDS: Give me a break. Do you search that?

PINKSY: No, but I know men -- men fight about weird stuff. They literally will have debates about strange things and go to Google and look

it up. Yes, it`s ridiculous. It`s insane -- it`s hard to imagine that it`s a coincidence. I`m just saying. OK, let`s leave it, because I want to get

on and get to more of this hot car controversy. I want to -- and later, I`ve also got a new -- I want to hear from Evy about this one, and Anahita,

and I`ve got a new mom who chose to feed her infant which she thought was best, which the physicians didn`t think so, nearly killed the child, and

landed her in jail. And don`t forget, just a few minutes, you can join us on Facebook, forward/drDrewhln. On Facebook, we host our after show

immediately following this show. We bring in some of our panelists. We bring in your posts. Be back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JUDY HO, PH.D.: Does he have dementia? How does he not remember, you didn`t drove off the baby.

(CROSSTALK)

EVY POUMPOURAS: We have a lot of red flags, they don`t add up.

SCHACHER: There are accidents.

PINSKY: Accidents are very, very.

HO: It happens. I hear it all the time, my friends with kids, oops, the baby is in the car, let`s go get the baby. OK. But this is not one of

those situations.

PINSKY: Why not?

HO: It`s not!

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I left my daughter, when she was 14 months old, in the back of our car. And I was with my husband. And it was a

hot July day. And literally, Anderson, my husband left her in the car. I left her in the car. We went to get a shopping cart, we took the shopping

cart past the car, went into home depot, I went into the garden center, and it was only after about five minutes that my husband came to me and said,

oh, my God, we left Paloma in the car. I`m still ashamed about it, I`m embarrassed, I`m horrified, and I can see how someone could do this.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Anahita, Claudia, and Evy. First of all, that panel discussion you saw in that info (ph) tape was our after show. That`s

what you can find after the show. We`re on Facebook forward/hlndrdrew -- drdrewhln rather. And what you saw there talking to Anderson Cooper was

CNN`s legal analyst, Sunny Hostin, who`s told us, she`s done this -- she`s done this. And our viewers are telling us the same thing. And I swear to

God, I think it`s possible I could have done the same thing. In fact, I`m just remembering, Samantha, that we had a child walk away on to the -- this

is a crazy story. It makes me upset to even tell you this. We had our triplets when they were 1 or so, maybe 1 1/2, 18 months, 2 years old,

something like that, and sort of a day care operation, like a gym, child and the mom would go. But the two of the three needed some sort of doctor

visit, a physician visit. My wife quickly took the two out, left the one with the caretakers there, and the one, maybe he was 3 years old or so, but

he was barely talking, let himself out of the place, walked out on to the freeway.

SCHACHER: Oh, gosh! Yeah. You know what, Dr. Drew, I`m not a parent, so perhaps I`ve been judging too harshly.

PINSKY: Right.

SCHACHER: And generally speaking.

PINSKY: What? Is it possible I`m hearing something?

SCHACHER: No. No. No. But I`m also really neurotic, Dr. Drew, because before I leave the house, I check to make sure my curling iron is not

plugged like ten times.

PINSKY: I`m OCD, too.

SCHACHER: I can`t imagine leaving my child in a car but this case, it`s different.

PINSKY: And when that happened to us, and thankfully, a lovely family picked him up and started searching around for where there were children,

and but for the grace of God -- I know, it`s an unbelievable story. There are angels watching over little children. It`s amazing it doesn`t happen to

more of us. But that`s my point, this could have been an accident. Yet, Evy, you say no. You say this is not -- your spidey senses -- your

investigative senses says no.

POUMPOURAS: Look, I say no only because of the evidence that`s been building up, as far as police, the video of the father going back to the

vehicle. I`d actually be curious, how long was the father at that vehicle? I mean, did he open the door, throw something in, and close it, or did he

open it, look in, take several seconds to check to see if the baby was alive or not, and then leave. That`s damning evidence. And obviously,

Google searching, you know, about putting something in a vehicle, and how long it takes for a living thing to die. These are all huge red flags.

That`s my problem.

PINSKY: I understand that.

POUMPOURAS: It`s not that a parent forgets their car.

PINSKY: I understand that. And Michelle Fields is twittering that she wants to see my internet search history. What if someone -- Anahita, maybe

somebody could have -- maybe somebody could have taken my computer that day when my son walked away and I don`t know what was on my computer that day.

It could have been -- I don`t know what.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR: That`s what happened, actually, in Casey Anthony, her mom said she made those searches. But, Dr. Drew, I`m with you. I`m not

convinced that this wasn`t an accident. And I agree that these new facts that came out, they don`t look good for him. Yeah, he took his son to lunch

in the morning a mile away, he went back to the car at lunch, but, look, the police are so insistent that this was not negligence, that it was

something sinister, that it was intentional, but guess what, yesterday during the press conference, I don`t know if any of you guys caught this,

they downgraded the child endangerment charge from first-degree, which would have been an intentional act, to second-degree, which is negligence.

PINSKY: But didn`t they kept -- they kept gross negligence though, didn`t they?

SEDAGHATFAR: Yeah, they made it negligence but that`s a huge difference, because on the one hand, they`re saying, we`re so adamant that

this was intentional, but downgraded the charge to make it a negligence charge, at least as it relates to the child.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: OK. OK.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I know why they downgraded it. The reason why they downgraded it from the first-degree to the second-degree charge is because

the first-degree charge had to indicate that the child was deprived to food and water for quite an extensive time. The second-degree charge was more

representative of the case being negligence, but it did not affect, whatsoever, the murder charges.

PINSKY: It`s more that they felt that they could win one and not the other. Anahita, I want to shoehorn Claudia in here. I want to get you and

you`ve been waiting very quietly. Go ahead.

CLAUDIA JORDAN: It`s totally understandable to have an absentminded moment, but that this guy not here was the child not making any sound on

the way to work? A 22-month-old baby, that`s when a baby is probably making a lot of noise, talking, engaging with his father, and then even if you

kind of let that slide, when he went to the car, a diaper, a diaper that hasn`t been changed for an hour smells so strong, add 130 degrees to that,

I think it`s complete BS to think that he did not smell this and did not know the baby was in the car.

PINSKY: If you guys could put this tweet up, I`ve got on mi iPad right now from our own Danine Monett, I`d like people to see this one because if

we got -- it says, did he also search, "how to revenge against the wife who`s leaving me? This is likely a marriage issue, folks, seriously." And I

agree with Danine. If you add that one ingredient, then the whole thing starts to make a much more sinister kind of story, don`t you -- Evy, you

say no?

POUMPOURAS: No, because maybe he`s just having issues with the child. I`ve worked cases where they`re frustrated with the child. It`s difficult

being a parent, it`s maybe a difficult child, the baby cries, they can`t control it, and then they decide, you know what, I`m done with this kid.

And I know the way I`m speaking.

PINSKY: I`m going to cook him in a car! It is harsh. I can`t even -- I would want to see this guy have some kind of a history of this kind of

thing.

POUMPOURAS: It`s reality! It is reality. These are the things we`re dealing with.

PINSKY: Samantha.

POUMPOURAS: I wish these things didn`t exist, but do we not -- does evil not exist? Do people not do horrible things? This is how we have to

think. We have to not think like me or you. You have to think like the bad guy. And that`s how we solve these cases.

PINSKY: Samantha.

POUMPOURAS: This is how we figure out what`s going wrong with our society.

SCHACHER: Yeah, and Dr. Drew, is this guy void of like all senses? I think, Claudia, hit the nail on the head. What, he can`t see correctly? He

can`t smell correctly? I mean, why are you and Anahita even for a nanosecond considering defending this guy?

PINSKY: Because we know now -- Anahita and I are evil, that`s it. Evil exists and we`re it. We`re the evil ingredient here.

SEDAGHATFAR: Join me now, Dr. Drew.

(CROSSTALK)

JORDAN: The Google searches, it`s just too much.

SEDAGHATFAR: I would just need more evidence. I`m not saying that it`s impossible, but I would need more evidence, like Dr. Drew said.

PINSKY: Claudia.

JORDAN: At the very least, this guy should not be in charge of taking care of any child. If you cannot hear or you`re unaware that a child is in

your own car on a hot day.

PINSKY: No doubt about that.

JORDAN: You don`t need to be in charge of the child`s life.

PINSKY: Claudia, I think -- listen, something should happen to this man and I have no doubt it will. But just imagine his grief, I`m certain he

would gladly take any punishment if, indeed, this was purely an accident. There`s no doubt in my mind about that. Same thing I was saying last night.

These are heart breaking stories. I just tonight remembered my own with this. Kiss your children. Make sure those angels are watching over them.

They`re you. You`re the angel that has got to be the most, most diligent.

Next, a mother is arrested. This is a child who some angels did seem to be watching over. Because when the mother ignored advice about how to

take care of her newborn, eventually somebody stepped in. And a reminder, you can find us anytime on Instagram @drdrewhln. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: A newborn baby is in state custody after Cassleberry police say Sarah Markham refused to take her dehydrated baby to

the hospital. Markham told police she`s a vegan, but bought a soy-based formula from whole foods for the baby instead of following the doctor`s

order. A doctor told Markham that the baby was dehydrated and according to this police report, losing weight. The doctor told Markham to go to the

hospital within the hour. The hospital was waiting with a bed ready to treat the child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Kirsten, Jacinta, and Anahita. This is our most tweeted story of the day, on a day with there has been lots of difficult

stories. The mom never took her 2-week-old infant to the hospital and she now faces felony child neglect charges. Her baby still in the hospital, and

Sam, I hear our Facebook comments on this story are brutal.

SCHACHER: Yeah. There`s a lot of outrage, Dr. Drew, targeting this mom. We have over 500 comments. So, Carol wrote, I think they should

dehydrate the mom, allow her to really feel the pain she put her baby through, right before they throw her ass in jail. And then we have just a

handful of supportive comments. Here`s an example, quote, her baby, her rules, not the prosecution baby, not the state baby or the doctor`s or

judge. If I was on the jury, I would have this nullified in a heartbeat.

PINSKY: According to the police report, the 23-year-old mom belongs to a church that believes in so-called holistic healing, and that`s why she

was insistent on feeding the baby this magical formula. Jacinta, don`t we have an obligation to protect children from certain parents?

JIMENEZ: Yes, absolutely. We would like -- ideally, we want the parent to be there. But if the parent is unfit to make wise decisions about their

child`s health, then we have to take measures into our own hands. Just like a psychologist, when we have someone who says, I`m suicidal. I have a plan

and I have the means to carry out this plan. I have to initiate a 5150, it`s my duty to make sure that.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Right, they don`t hurt themselves. You`re not entitled to hurt yourself. You`re entitled to a lot of freedoms, but Anahita, stand by. I

want to hear what, Kirsten, has to say on this. You`re gonna get in a little bit. Kirsten.

HAGLUND: No. I mean, that`s right, you award parents autonomy to a certain point, until the child`s life is in danger, and then it`s your job

to step in. What I`m concerned about here, I think that this mother is truly sick. And I mean that from the perspective of a lot of people use a

rigid structure like veganism or like their -- you know, religion or whatever it may be to cope from other things, to give themselves

discipline, rigidity, and structure. And she`s clearly has done that in her own life and now is doing that for her baby. She mentioned religious

regions in report. So, this is about way more than health. I think that veganism is not -- it`s not just about health for her, it`s about something

more. And that`s evidenced by the fact that when the baby within to the hospital, she was like, OK, whatever, taking 45 minutes to get ready, not

caring that she`s not going to see the child is about way more than health. This isn`t about veganism.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Kirsten, I think that is a great point. And that is the point, Anahita, a lot of things hide behind issues of religion or issues of

personal preference. I`m not into the government getting way up in our lives. I`m a libertarian at heart. I really am. But the fact is, there are

signs, there are -- we can judge. We do know the difference. And we can say, that is somebody that`s dangerous and is going to harm that child.

SEDAGHATFAR: OK, you`re kind of right and you`re kind of wrong, Dr. Drew. Because the United States Supreme Court agrees that parents have a

fundamental right in how to raise their kids.

PINSKY: Of course, they do.

SEDAGHATFAR: However they want to. But when it comes to life or death, the state can get involved. Now, the issue is, should this be charged as a

felony? Should the state be charging her with a crime? I don`t think so. I think she is ill, probably, she definitely needs some parenting classes,

because the solution here wasn`t to not take her kids to the hospital. She should have taken her kid to the hospital and worked out a compromise with

the doctor. Maybe figure out, you know, a solution.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But Anahita, you`re being reasonable.

SEDAGHATFAR: I`m always being reasonable.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Two week old child, which had lost. As I read the police report, lost ten pounds, not gained the necessary pound.

SEDAGHATFAR: But do we make it criminal, Dr. Drew? If you were in this position, would you want this patient to go to jail?

PINSKY: Thank God I`m not a lawyer and don`t have to think about things like that. But now that you`re putting me on the spot, if she was

recalcitrant, I would want -- listen. The legal system really helps us in medicine sometimes. It really does. When there are legal consequences, we

can bring things to bear that people may not want to do, because they don`t have insight.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right.

PINSKY: When people don`t have insight, and physicians -- Jacinta is nodding her head vigorously. We have a knowledge base, we have judgment.

You know, this paediatrician has dealt with thousands of babies. He or she knew what was right for that child and our judgment is the child`s mother

is potentially dangerous, as a result of her impaired decision making, impaired perceptions. And in that case, that judgment should prevail. And

if it needs be that she be threatened with some real legal action, I say, so be it. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her explanation was that she didn`t want her child ingesting any animal by-products.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The new mother never showed up to a hospital appointment for her infant son after a doctor told her the baby was

dehydrated and needed help immediately. Markham told investigators she instead contacted a natural or vegan doctor, because she did not agree with

the ingredients in formula given to her by her paediatrician. The woman, who was a seventh-day adventist believes in holistic healing and had been

feeding her 13 day old infant organic soy formula, but he had lost 10 percent of his body weight.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Kirsten, Jacinta and Evy. Tonight, that Florida mom faces felony charges of child neglect. Our Facebook Dr. Drew HLN

Facebook page is filled with outrage. Gina Harris writes, some people need psych evaluations before having children. It should be required and we

would save a bunch of children. Evy, Kirsten nailed it in the last block. This is about someone with -- this is not about soy, this is not about food

choices. Those are all good things. Those are healthy things. This is about someone with a rigidity and illness, but she`s not evil, Evy. Do you think

this is an evil thing? And why is this not evil and the guy who screws up with the -- I mean, it`s a horrible consequence, but he leaves his kid in

the car, that`s evil.

POUMPOURAS: The guy with the car, we believe, is intentional, given the proof we`ve got. This mother, there`s a psychological disconnect here,

where she thinks she`s doing the right thing by this child, by giving it healthy ingredients, but she`s taking it to that extreme. This is something

deep rooted, where if you`re thinking clearly, you understand there has to be a balance. There is no balance. This is very fanatical behavior, very

Extreme behavior.

PINSKY: Fanatical.

POUMPOURAS: And I think that there`s a mental disconnect here. She`s got some type of disorder. She needs to be psychologically assessed.

PINSKY: We agree on that. Fanatical. Of course it`s in Florida, Samantha.

SCHACHER: Yeah. Of course it is. And Dr. Drew, I suspect that there`s additional negligence here. I`m sorry. I don`t really even buy the fact

it`s just plant-based formula that`s caused all this dehydration. There`s no way.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: No. Something much more went on here.

SCHACHER: Let`s make that clear, because there are a lot of babies out there who are lactose intolerant.

PINSKY: I had one. We had a child that we used a soy-based formula. And, Kirsten, that was your very point. It`s not about that. It`s something

far greater here.

HAGLUND: Right. No, you`re absolutely right. The other thing we have kind of at play here, maybe not necessarily with this woman, is the fact

that we have so much access now with the internet to health information, that everyone thinks they`re their own doctor. And they can just look up

something on webmd and diagnose themselves.

PINSKY: Let me give a quick two-second primer on the fact that information is not knowledge, it`s not wisdom, it`s not applied knowledge.

It`s not. The stuff that you learn on the internet is stuff that physicians know when they finish their second year of medical school. Then they have

another eight or ten years of training and experience in the world with this information. That`s where wisdom comes from. That`s where the

knowledge base comes from. It`s not about the information you read there. Jacinta, last thoughts?

JIMENEZ: Yeah, I think this is much more than just a woman who is misinformed and passionate about veganism. This is a woman who is showing

signs of mental illness, especially avoidant restrictive food intake disorder comes to mind, and she sees her child as an extension of herself.

And is imposing.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Like a Munchausen`s by proxy of situation that almost cost this child his or her life. We`ll be at the Facebook page for the after

show. DVR us to watch this show anytime and Forensic Files begins right now.

END