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Dr. Drew
FBI Interviews Basement Boy; Mystery: Hot Car Child Death
Aired July 01, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the hot car baby death case. The 2-year-old`s father is in jail for now. But is his arrest
a terrible mistake? The behavior bureau considers some new evidence.
Plus, the FBI is talking to basement boy. Why do they care about a child who had vanished and was found 11 days later in his father`s cellar?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a wonderful father. He`s loving father. He has a soft heart.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome, everyone.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, we have a former Wall Street banker accused of taping his sexual encounters with women and then sharing it on the Internet
without their knowledge, until it became something. They found out about it.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes. And, Dr. Drew, that`s only the half of it, just wait until we disclose all the details.
PINSKY: It`s going to be a good story.
But, first, we got the father and stepmother of 12-year-old Charlie Bothuell. They maybe charged with abuse. It depends on what the FBI learn
today from the psychological evaluation of the boy who has been missing from 11 days.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REPORTER: Was this little boy ever in danger in his own home?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never in danger in his own home.
REPORTER: Charlie disappeared after being scolded for not doing chores and exercises.
CHARLIE`S OLDER SISTER: My father, he would never do anything to hurt his kid. As far as the way (INAUDIBLE), that is totally exaggerated and he
made me run a mile every morning. But I lost weight and I was happy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he first got there, he was overweight, frankly. My client being an RN, being in the medical field was acutely
aware of problems with child obesity. Yes, he asked him to work out on the elliptical. Was it punitive? No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Remember that bloody PVC pipe that was apparently found in the home -- Charlie says his dad drove that pipe into
his chest and apparently has the scar to prove it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us, Yasmin Vossoughian, HLN correspondent, Anahita Sedaghatfar from AnahitaLaw.com, and Segun Oduolowu, social commentator,
host of the "Wired in with Segun" Podcast.
Sam, there`s some new information. Tell us what you know.
SCHACHER: Well, according to the sister, this is what I know, that he initially, little Charlie initially did live with the biological mother.
It wasn`t until his grade started to slip that both his biological mother and his father decided that he would then live with his dad to help
straighten him up.
PINSKY: Segun, I say the attorney`s nonsense about his being a nurse and his concern about childhood obesity is the reason he holds a PVC pipe
over a kid to get him to run elliptical, Segun, what do you think?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think, Dr. Drew, we need to be very, very careful, because culturally, there are different things
that we consider abusive that in other cultures are just considered corporal punishment or just considered discipline. The way I grew up, I`m
Nigerian-American. Look, if my grades were bad or I was overweight, my parents would put me in sports. I would get spankings. There are even
places in the down South where they say to get a switch and still get a whooping. We used to paddle kids and smack them with rulers.
I don`t -- I would be careful -- you got to be careful that this is abuse.
PINSKY: Cultural relativism be damned. I`ll tell you what? Let`s says, genital mutilation, too. That goes into a lot of cultures. Is that
OK?
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: No. But, Dr. Drew, with talking about a kid on elliptical and allegations of a PVC pipe being driven into his chest. We have no
proof of anything. What we do have is our bourgeoisie sensitivities and saying, oh, my God, a boy was spanked. A 12-year-old locked in a basement
--
PINSKY: Anahita, you`re not going to agree with Segun tonight, are you?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Actually, I think he is making sense for the first time in his life.
SCHACHER: Are you kidding me?
ODUOLOWU: Anahita, you`re gorgeous.
SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you, Segun. I should compliment you more often.
But, Dr. Drew, the reality is, that the police and the FBI are doing exactly what they should be doing, they are conducting a hearing before
they go running and charging the parent with any crime here. And part of that entails interviewing the child. They need to work with child
psychologists.
They need to ask him what happened. They need to hear his story. So they are going about it the right way.
PINSKY: Of course, collect the data. Yasmin, collect the data. But PVC pipe, pretty damning evidence.
ODUOLOWU: Proof, we need proof.
PINSKY: We need proof, we still don`t know --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: One second. We don`t know how the kid ended up in the basement. Was it something he was advised to do? He went away from
somebody? The stepmom put them there?
ODUOLOWU: You never got sent to the basement, Dr. Drew?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Yasmin?
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it`s right that, yes, we don`t know how he ended up there but we do know there is some sort of
universal ignorance going on with both parents, which is sort of just -- it`s sort of flabbergasting to me because I don`t understand how it is that
these two people can end up with one another.
If it does so happen that both of these people are implicated, how is it that this husband and this wife can end up together and what
conversation is that goes on that they should say, we should raise our child this way. Treat our child this way. If it happens that Segun is
right that there are cultural implications in this case, then what does that mean? How is that conversation take place? How do they agree to
actually abuse or treat their child this way?
PINSKY: Sam, we`ll hear from you, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Yes, Dr. Drew, I have proof for you, Segun, because this father -- first of all, before I get to the bomb shell what this father
told police, number one, the child, Charlie, told police in isolation, that he was beat with that PVC pipe, OK? Then police found the PVC pipe in the
home with blood on it. Then, the father admitted to the police that he does discipline, in quotes, discipline the kid with the pipe.
Is that not enough proof for you, Segun?
ODUOLOWU: But it doesn`t cross for me to be abuse. I`ve seen kids get beat -- because I`ve seen kids beaten with a belt. I`ve seen canings.
You can`t take your sensibilities because you weren`t spanked and you don`t spank --
PINSKY: Yes, we can, Segun, because we know what happens to the brain under those conditions. We know precisely what happened --
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: Do you hit your kids?
PINSKY: Hell no, because there`s always a better way to shape their behavior. But there is one thing, Segun, I will grant you, I will grant
you this. What if, consider this, what if the kid is the problem? What if this kid is a burgeoning psycho path?
Maybe the parents are at their wits end.
ODUOLOWU: Wow.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I`m not blaming the kid. But -- what if the parents are struggling with the kid and they just tried everything. And they went to
these extremes.
ODUOLOWU: If that`s the case, what about sparing the rod and spoiling the child? You can still discipline a kid with a spanking and it not be
abuse. We are looking at it from a very jaundiced view, because maybe you don`t spank or we don`t spank. I got hit.
(CROSSTALK)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Don`t we think that when blood is involved, it goes beyond the line -- I mean, this is abuse.
(CROSSTALK)
VOSSOUGHIAN: There`s blood drawn. There`s a problem.
SEDAGHATFAR: I have a huge problem, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: What is it?
SEDAGHATFAR: Is there any evidence that this blood has been tested. The blood that is allegedly on this pipe, it hasn`t been tested.
Dr. Drew, I tend to agree with you. One of my theories is it could be possible that this child hid himself. We don`t know if it is because he
has behavioral problems, we don`t know if he has mental issues, we don`t know if its` because he was escaping abuse. That`s a possibility.
But how do we know that blood on the pipe belonged to the child? How do we jump to that conclusion?
PINSKY: That`s right.
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s preposterous.
PINSKY: It was not preposterous, but the fact, we don`t know the facts really yet. But it looks worrisome at the least.
I`m going to bring in the behavior bureau and get their thoughts on this. And, Segun, listen closely, please. What do they make of the dad?
And later, we`ll look at new evidence in the hot care death mystery. Right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy probably has suffered chronic abuse.
PINSKY: Looks like it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that`s the case. His brain chemistry has already changed. His response has already gone hay wire.
PINSKY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Watch the interview with Nancy Grace. His eyes are darting back and forth. When we do that, we are trying to look for
memories.
UIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Polygraph was administered to the father. It came inclusive. Is he thinking, this boy ran away because I abused him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, talking about the boy who`s missing for 11 days. Was he hiding from someone or something?
Let`s bring in our behavior bureau, Jennifer Keitt, life coach and radio host, Claudia Jordan. host actress, joining us for the first time,
Amy Reichenbach, clinical psychiatrist.
All right. Before I get to this, let me say something. I got my brain out.
When a child believes they are in threat, they`re in harm`s way, that possibility -- we have a fight or flight response initially, OK? We all
know what that is. We have a sympathetic charge. But what happens when we are cornered, when there is going to be a strike, whether it`s another
human striking us or animal attacking us, we have something called a shut down, with the right brain, which is embedded in the nervous system in our
body, shuts down our emotional system and that disassociation becomes a strategy for regulating our emotions.
And it`s a disastrous reality for people that have gone through this and affects their interpersonal life. They maybe fine professional, but
their emotional regulation, their risk for addiction and their interpersonal function can be a mess.
Amy, this is your first day here. Have at that.
AMY REICHENBACH, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Thank you, Dr. Drew. I`m so glad you brought that up. Absolutely beating your children, physical
punishment, is not an effective form of --
PINSKY: Would you agree in every bit of research ever been issued, research over and over again does physical abuse -- is it ever superior to
anything? Or is it ever the best form of creating behavioral change?
REICHENBACH: Absolutely not, absolutely not.
Physically punishing your children, research does not show support for that as an effective form of parenting.
PINSKY: There is always a better means. Always, always, always.
REICHENBACH: Absolutely, in fact, it is quite the opposite. I worked myself, I`ve worked in jails, counseling inmates. I can tell you jails are
full of inmates who have been physically punished and abused by their parents.
So, the idea that you somehow doing a favor to your child by physically punishing them is a total fallacy. There is no evidence to
support that.
PINSKY: Segun, listen carefully.
Jennifer, what say you?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: No, Dr. Drew, I have raised four children. I`m sorry, I discipline them corporally. I mean, I used the
belt.
PINSKY: But why -- that`s fine. But why -- why fly in the face of every shred of psychological behavior research out there? Why?
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: More time consuming, more difficult ways to do it. Why do that?
KEITT: You know what, Dr. Drew, for me, because I have another world view that would say a Christian world view that would say, if you spare the
rod, you spoil the child.
PINSKY: You are clinician, why ignore the research? Is my question. Every shred of research bears this out. If it bears something else out, I
would hit my kids too. I absolutely would.
KEITT: OK, Dr. Drew, when you get to a point in which you have to take matters to your own hands in getting your kids to actually move in a
direction, it`s either mom punishing them, mom doing it or the police doing it, Dr. Drew.
I`m absolutely sorry. I have raised four. My youngest is 19. They all do, do not cross a line with me. Do not.
I never abused my children though because it was couched in love. There is a fine line between abuse and discipline, a fine line.
PINSKY: Maybe. Claudia?
CLAUDIA JORDAN, ACTRESS: OK. I`m all for, my mother, she discipline me as well, but in moderation. And what we have to define here, what`s the
difference between abuse and discipline.
A spanking is one thing but driving a PVC pipe no a child`s chest and drawing blood, that`s where you have to draw the line. Yes, it is alleged.
But it looks pretty bad for the father.
KEITT: I would agree with that, absolutely. You do not draw blood. I`m not suggesting by any means you draw blood.
PINSKY: Why? Why? Why draw the line there? Why?
KEITT: I`m sorry?
PINSKY: Why draw the line there?
KEITT: Oh, come on, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: No, come on. Not come on. We are talking about what it does to the brain. I don`t care what it does to the skin. I worry about what
it does to the brain, not the skin.
Who cares if the skin hurts? Absolutely it does --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Amy, you`re a clinical psychologist. Is there anything I`m saying that`s inaccurate in anyway?
REICHENBACH: Absolutely not. Dr. Drew, you`re 100 percent. The research does not support physical punishment for children. I understand
there is a difference between -- parents differentiate between abuse and physical punishment. But research, if you simply look object objectively
at clinical research, no support for clinical punishment.
PINSKY: If there were, I would recommend it.
KEITT: What about successful children as research? What about those discipline and have researched --
PINSKY: Because you know what, Jennifer, I deal with those children - - no, you hear those people have problems in their personal lives and their emotional lives.
Claudia, go ahead.
JORDAN: I do agree that, in some cultures, especially in African- Americans we are not strangers to spanking and going out there and getting a switch. But again, there is an extreme, extreme case.
PINSKY: Yes, you`re right.
JORDAN: There is an argument.
PINSKY: Sam, I`m playing devil`s advocate to a certain point, because we don`t take about where the line is, when the brain effects occur. But
the research does in fact show that any behavior, any behavior, if it`s a behavior as the goal, there are always better ways than physical
punishment.
(CROSSTALK)
KEITT: That should be part of the parent`s tool chest, too, Dr. Drew. You did not eliminate spanking. Can you dot talk, coaching with, time-out
and if necessary, you can swat behinds as well.
SCHACHER: I know that this is a very obviously a sensitive topic because it has to do with parenting and it gets defensive. But I don`t
understand why one would argue against data. I`m just saying.
KEITT: I`m not arguing against it --
SCHACHER: Hashtag brain lessons, please.
PINSKY: I just did brain lesson. That`s what started this thing.
Listen, I`m not talking about raising kids, I`m just saying why fly in the face of research.
KEITT: So, would you prefer kids that are being policed? Would you prefer kids being disciplined by police? Would you prefer that?
PINSKY: Jennifer?
Amy, you`re the one that has as much clinical experience as I do with kids that were physically abused. Would you agree those kids are more or
less likely to end up with police?
REICHENBACH: Absolutely. Like I said, I worked in jails with inmates doing counseling. Jails are filled, filled with inmates who have been
physically punished or physically abused by their parents.
PINSKY: Wait --
KEITT: Abused, punished, not disciplined.
PINSKY: Do the inmates call it discipline or do they call it abuse, the inmates?
REICHENBACH: Inmates called it beatings.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: That is different.
JORDAN: There is arguments to be made. There are plenty of people in jail that are serial killers or these kids on shooting sprees that are not
spanked and not disciplined at all enough.
KEITT: Thank you.
JORDAN: So, again, it`s all in moderation. And we`ve got to draw the line here.
REICHENBACH: I disagree.
PINSKY: Amy, go ahead.
REICHENBACH: I disagree with the moderation part. I don`t understand how people that clinicians can pick and choose which research they choose
to ignore and then --
PINSKY: Here is one thing there is research that shows if you need behavior -- every time you raise your hand to a child, no matter how gently
you hit them, every time, what you see is behavior you want to stop, stops in that moment. And without exception, inevitably, comes back again and
exceeds, moves past the behavior we`re trying to stop in the first place.
KEITT: Dr. Drew, that`s not -- no.
PINSKY: That`s what research shows.
KEITT: OK, it shows that, but it cannot possibly show that for every child that has been spanked. Absolutely not. That is not true.
I was spanked. I did not go out of control. I was disciplined.
PINSKY: I didn`t say out of control.
SCHACHER: I`m sure there are exceptions to all the rules. I was never spanked and my siblings and I turned out very compassionate and just
fine.
KEITT: And we were spanked and we did too. Who was right and who was wrong?
SCHACHER: There are exceptions.
PINSKY: So the spanked on the panel, three of us were not spanked, but Claudia and Jennifer were spanked. Is that correct?
JORDAN: Not that much, but I was spanked.
PINSKY: Listen, if a kid is running across the street and you need them stopped, spank them. That`s good parenting because you need them to
stop that behave your right now. Even if they do something worse later, you don`t care because you need the behavior to stop in a moment.
But research shows, it`s just a fact, that there always better ways. Not exclusively the only way, but there are better ways in terms of
actually shaping behavior. That`s what research shows. If it showed something else, I would share that with you, I would suggest that`s what we
do.
Next up, it`s the case against he dad accuse in his son`s death in a hot car crumbling.
And later, a banker allegedly taped sex acts with women, and posted some of them on YouTube. He blames the dog.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s telling you that a 22-month-old had a good life. Think about that for a moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe he didn`t want to be a father. Maybe he thought it was too much responsibility. If you look at how this went down,
it looks as if this was murder.
SEDAGHATFAR: I`m not convinced this wasn`t an accident. The new fact that came out, they don`t look good for him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it was complete B.S. to think that he did not smell this and not know the baby was in the car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The searches, the mother, the father, these statements, they are basically giving you, if they did it, I`m not saying
they did --
PINSKY: A story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But if they did it, they are giving you why they did it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Anahita, Yasmin and Segun, thank you for having war on my show.
ODUOLOWU: Beat the kids, beat the kids.
PINSKY: What we`re talking about, I think we all agree more than we disagree if we really start defining things.
Let`s get to another story tweeted on more than any other tonight. It`s a Georgia father who left his son in a hot car for seven hours. The
boy died from overheating. Now, we know both parents had done Internet searches about child deaths inside vehicles.
Anahita, does it, is it more problematic for you?
SEDAGHATFAR: I`m still not convinced, Dr. Drew. I`m not convinced based on Internet searches. I`m not convinced based on the mother`s eulogy
at the child`s father. I think people grief differently. You taught me that numerous times. I just need some more fact --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Nice strategy, counselor, pushing that back on me. Well done.
Let`s talk about what she did say at the funeral. She said, bringing this child back into a, quote, "broken world" would be selfish.
Yasmin, selfish -- I mean, the child lost his life.
SCHACHER: Right.
VOSSOUGHIAN: I want to address what you said earlier. Both parents made Internet searches. Do we know both made Internet searches? The mom
said she made an Internet search? But has that been verified? Why would she say that? Like no one is asking that question.
SCHACHER: That`s what they said, though. They admitted it.
VOSSOUGHIAN: No, she admitted, but do we really know?
(CROSSTALK)
VOSSOUGHIAN: Is she doing it to protect the father? Is she doing it to put herself along side the father and say, hey, yes, that`s what we do
here in the household, we make Internet searches like that? All day people have been addressing this thing saying we make weird Internet searches.
Yes, I make searches about whether my hair stays straight if it is too warm outside.
I`m not about how long it takes for a baby to stay alive in a car. And coincidentally my child dies in a car? There`s too much coincidence.
PINSKY: There are a lot of self preoccupation we heard from the parents. There are a lot of, I never could bring the child back into the
world. You know, the husband saying, I can`t be there. Rather than oh, my God, this child lost his life.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, it was a lot of me, me, me. My, my, my. I, I, I.
A lot of the baby and kid that passed away was forgotten and I couldn`t do this, or we couldn`t do this, or me couldn`t do this. But I
find it very interesting that we have allegations of a father beating his kid, we`re ready to throw the book at him. We`ve got two people looking
how to cook a kid in a car and their kid gets cooked in the car.
And, Anahita, God bless you, Anahita, I thought by were together on this one. But you are on the wild side. You need more proof. They looked
at how to cook a kid in a car. All they needed was a recipe book.
PINSKY: Segun, what was the intention? I mean, if this was intentional, what would be motive be? I mean, why would -- I mean, people
-- what Michelle Fields was saying in that piece on the way in, is maybe they got tired of being a parent. You don`t get tired of being a parent.
ODUOLOWU: No, but, Dr. Drew, you do. There are people so consumed with their selfishness. Their life changed more than what they thought,
will do anything to cling to what they had. And sometimes they did atrocious things like cooking their kid in a mini van.
PINSKY: And, Sam, no one in that community, Sam, that could say anything bad about the dad. CNN spent all day looking for someone to say
something disparaging.
SCHACHER: That is so hard to wrap your head around this, because I agree with you, Segun. I unfortunately, and I pray to God that I`m wrong,
I hope this was a hair brained absentminded moment, a great tragedy.
But the more we find out these facts, and let`s be reminded that the police initially defended this father. It wasn`t until later that
investigation went under way that they found something far more sinister took place.
But, Dr. Drew, I think I know the motive. I think if you listen to her eulogy, she had a subconscious admission of guilt. She said she
wouldn`t want to bring her child back into the life because of the very fact that she would be bringing them back into a broken world. Maybe they
think they`re saving him.
PINSKY: No, Sam, they also said they looked to having more children together.
SCHACHER: Possibly, because they were asked that question.
They were asked that question, though. That`s leading question. Who knows if that is really their intent?
PINSKY: Let me show you another story. Earlier today, this happened today, a day care owner left five children alone in a car while she went
into a supermarket. The children get this, ranged in age from six months of age to nine years of age. The car was running with the air conditioning
on. Doors were locked.
Other shoppers notified the store, called the police when they heard children crying. They were alone at that point for at least 30 minutes,
started calling overhead in the grocery store for someone to collect the children. Day care owner has been arrested. None of the children were
hurt, thank God.
Segun, you want to respond?
ODUOLOWU: Yes, I just don`t understand, how does someone get a license to watch children and this is the type of carelessness and type of
ridiculous behavior. I mean, we can`t condone this even when it is pets. We are doing this to babies and kids. It is maddening to me that this
person runs the day care and is entrusted to watch over kids.
PINSKY: Can you imagine?
ODUOLOWU: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: Yasmin, you hand your kids over to this person. And that`s what happened, I`d be freaked out.
VOSSOUGHIAN: First of all, has she been watching television? Does she know what`s been going on? Then she does this.
PINSKY: Right.
VOSSOUGHIAN: What kind person thinks this is OK. She left the air conditioner on. Maybe she thinks, I left the air conditioner on.
ODUOLOWU: She is half a monster.
PINSKY: She did a search on what happens in a car with a child. How long can they survive with air conditioner on?
SCHACHER: There is a 6-month-old in the car. This woman is paid to watch kid. Not to leave kids in the car while she goes and shops.
PINSKY: All right. Now, listen --
VOSSOUGHIAN: And maybe we need to think about -- but real quick, we need to think about the background searches done on the day care workers
and people taking care of our kids, because, ultimately, they are making poor decisions. It`s been all over the news the last couple of days. You
know, nanny stays in the house. This happens.
I mean, what are we doing here? Just handing our kids to anybody?
ODUOLOWU: They were probably grounded instead of spanked. If they were spanked, they would be better day care workers.
PINSKY: OK. Well, or as we learn yesterday, you can find better ones on Craigslist. So, that`s clear, where you should for this thing.
All right. So, let`s see -- so why focus on the dad, on this particular dad, Cooper`s dad. (AUDIO GAP) do happen. You`re going to hear
a story of someone extremely responsible person did exactly what Cooper`s dad did.
And later, did this man tape sex with several women and then put these images out on YouTube?
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LYN BALFOUR, SON DIED WHILE IN CAR SEAT: A child gets out the back door that was supposed to be locked and accidentally drowns in a pool. A
child falls down their stairs and breaks their necks and dies or becomes paralyzed. And, those parents are not charged because it was an accident.
GENE WEINGARTEN, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: There is stress involved. There is a change in routine.
BALFOUR: I understand medically and understand logically how it is possible, but it still does not mean that I do not -- I do not believe it
myself, that I could actually forget him in the car.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Sure.
WEINGARTEN: This turns out to be a failure of memory on not of love, not of bad parenting.
BALFOUR: It is not like the death of a child where it was an accidental death or you know, something happened like cancer or a family
member when it was your fault. It is something you live with everyday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID DREW, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL": That was back with Sam, Jennifer, Claudia, and Amy. You just heard from a mother whose son had
died when she left him in her car when she went to work. And, that women, herself, -- Amy, correct me if I am wrong, but she was like a bronze star
winner? Right? She was -- You know, she was a military veteran with honors. Jennifer, is there any similarity between that woman and this dad as
accused of murder?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: You know, I honestly I do not think so. I have been on the bandwagon since day one that dad is guilty. I am sorry.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER": Yes.
KEITT: Something about that story and my gut, it just did not feel right. I live in the same county that this happened. So, from the time
that I began to hear this story, something did not sound correct. And, then you had -- you know, his situation with his wife, I checked in, Dr.
Drew. No matter if I beat my kids or not, I still checked in with my husband --
DR. DREW: Yes.
KEITT: Hey, how did it go when you dropped him off at day care today, et cetera, et cetera. No communication for a full day with a 22-month-old,
it just did not sound right to me from day one.
SCHACHER: Good point.
DR. DREW: Claudia.
CLAUDIA JORDAN, MODEL/ACTRESS: I have to agree with that. I mean a mother of a 22-month-old child, you are constantly wanting to know what
your child is doing. That is when new things are happening developmentally.
DR. DREW: Yes.
JORDAN: You want to know what is going on with your child. And, you just do not have the thought to text the father. I mean you walked out
your house and leave your cell phone at home, "Oh, my God! I forgot my phone. I am going to go back home." You mean to tell me your baby, in
seven hours it never crosses your mind. And, then going to your car, during the lunch break, once again, there is no way you do not smell a dead
baby in the car.
DR. DREW: Well, at least a full diaper. Yes, exactly.
KEITT: Exactly.
JORDAN: A diaper at the very least.
DR. DREW: Yes.
JORDAN: Very odd behavior from this family. Even at the eulogy. It just does not make sense and I agree, guilty in my opinion.
DR. DREW: And, Amy, you are bothered by the mom defending the dad the way she did.
AMY REICHENBACH, PSY.D., POSYCHOLOGIST: The mother`s statement about she is not angry with the father. Never even crossed her mind to be angry.
That is not consistent with human nature.
DR. DREW: Wait. I think it is a lie. It is a lie.
REICHENBACH: Yes.
DR. DREW: There is no way it never crossed her mind to be angry. It has to be a lie.
REICHENBACH: It is either a lie or she is not angry because this is what she wanted.
DR. DREW: Oh, Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes. And, it is almost as if she had already gone through - - I think we talked about this last night, gone through like the emotions of acceptance rather than shocked or anger. And, I thought that was really
eerie. And, going back to the fact that the drive from his office to the Chick-fillet where he just put the baby in the car seat was a half of a
mile. That is not even what, a minute drive? Two-minute drive. Come on, Dr. Drew. It just does not add up.
DR. DREW: Claudia.
JORDAN: And, I agree with the family`s behavior. I mean how is it that the child just passed away and you are so already at peace with the
death of your child. There should be more frustration, more angst, more depression. They are just way too peaceful.
DR. DREW: And, they are saying their spiritual life that is protecting them and saving them from those kinds of overwhelming feelings.
But, I do not know. I agree with you. That seems so peculiar. Jennifer, you agree?
KEITT: Yes. I am as spiritual as the next person, Dr. Drew, and that does not mean your head goes out the window.
DR. DREW: Right.
KEITT: Death is something that we have to grief through. This does not make sense. These parents, in my opinion, did not want to be parents
and they concocted away to get rid of that beautiful child. And, it is absolutely heart wrenching. But, that is what I believe happened.
DR. DREW: Amy, yesterday, went through a whole bunch of red flags for us, that made me not sleep too well last night. But Amy, in the story that
Anderson Cooper did that we just saw tape of on the way into this segment, they were saying that, it is a memory problem.
That there can be false memories that sort of kick in when you good into sort after work mode. You forget that you are in the parent mode.
You step into a different role. Does that make sense to you?
REICHENBACH: Absolutely. There is -- It is an important point to bring up. There is real neurological research out there that shows this
forgotten baby syndrome. It is a real disorder that takes place in the brain. You know, as you like you have your brain out a little bit, Dr.
Drew as you always say.
The brain is a physical structure and just like any other physical structure in the body. It is capable of malfunctioning and this forgotten
baby syndrome is a actually a real syndrome where sometimes false memories can be creative actually dropping the child off somewhere or thinking that
you have done something that you have not done. So, it is --
DR. DREW: You know what? I actually -- Claudia, let me just say, I am thinking I would have the same reaction you will have, Claudia which is
"What? Forget my baby? Impossible." But, I remember, I had triplets. So, it is hard to forget anything going on. But, I remember being fearful that
I might do that.
I was so overwhelmed all the time. I was double and triple checking myself. And, I have like OCD. I have a disorder that makes me not, not
prone to forgetting something. But, one time if I did not check that extra time, something could have happened.
JORDAN: I can understand that, Dr. Drew. There are plenty of single parent that do not make this mistake. And, this is the child that has the
benefit of two parents. So, if one had this mysterious forgotten baby syndrome, and they forgot, there is a mom that should be checking in as a
safety net. That is why I find it very hard to believe.
DR. DREW: Yes. Yes. I agree. Next up, man has sex on tape. And, the women say they did not know, they did not consent and they found out --
I guess when it was on-line. It was way too late by the time they found out.
Thanks for all of your Facebook likes. Please keep them coming. Our competition has ended, but we are nearing a large big milestone. Like I
said, Facebook.com/dr.drewhln. And, of course, be sure to join us on Facebook for our after show immediately following this program and we are
back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Is this investment banker morally bankrupt? John Kelly is accused of secretly videotaping three women during
sexual encounters. His alleged devious operation began to unravel when one of his reported victims confronted him after viewing their x-rated video on
his private YouTube account. As his alleged victims fight for justice, Kelly insist, he is no video voyeur.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Back with Sam, Yasmin, Anahita, and Claudia. The accused banker said, the videos were accidentally recorded, ladies, by a doggy cam.
SCHACHER: Yes.
DR. DREW: He set the doggy cam up to monitor his pet Puggle. Those of you, who like me, do not know what Puggle is, the Beagle-Pug mix. To
monitor the dog while he was at work. And, Kelly believes the camera is on and sometimes stays on, so I accidentally recorded myself having sex
because it is always recording. Sam, I guess he must have fallen on the upload button to YouTube also. I do not know.
SCHACHER: Or maybe, Dr. Drew, his dog accidentally uploaded these videos to YouTube. This guy is an entitled douche bag who grew up with a
hot shot attorney for a father, clearly takes zero accountability. In fact, he actually got one of the girls arrested because the girl found out
about it, went to his house, poured soda on his hard drive as she should have and trashed the place. So, he got her arrested. She spent the night
in jail until she told the police what had happened and thank God they cleared her name.
DR. DREW: Well, Anahita, are we jumping -- is the story sounds so honorous, are we jumping all over this guy needlessly. Should we wait for
the facts just the way you always advise us counsellor?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, T.V. LEGAL ANALYST/ DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think we should always.
DR. DREW: Yes. By the way, as he said, these women were stalking him. They broke into the house. And, that is why they destroyed his
computer and they were consenting to all this.
SCHACHER: Oh, my Gosh!
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, Yes. That is why, Dr. Drew, I always say, over and over, that it is the worst thing a criminal defendant or suspect can
do, talking to the police, getting interrogated without an attorney present, because now he is tied to that statement saying that the dog
turned the camera on.
And, the police are saying there is no way because we see in the video that he is actually adjusting the cameras. He is actually looking
into the camera at certain times. And, there is more than one camera. So, you never talk to the police without an attorney when you are a criminal
suspect.
DR. DREW: Well, as usual Yasmin, I was trying to interpret what my counsellor said. I think she said, when you set up the cams to record
somebody`s sex acts, make sure after you have done it, and the police catch you, get an attorney. I think it is much better.
(LAUGHING)
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That is funny.
SEDAGHATFAR: Do not talk to the police.
VOSSOUGHIAN: And, make sure you have a really smart dog that you can rely on to prove your story.
SCHACHER: Right.
VOSSOUGHIAN: But, I think Sam is right. This guy is entitled. Look, I am a New Yorker. I have heard this time and time again. I do not know
if you guys remember. I think it was last summer or two summers ago, there was a Goldman Sach`s banker accused of raping someone in the Hamptons.
There was an I.D. league banker who was accused of sexually assaulting them.
These guys are entitled? Why are they entitled? Because they come from privileged background. And, ultimately -- and Dr. Drew this is what
women sit around and talk about all night, all right? Ready? Are you ready for it?
DR. DREW: Yes. Yes.
VOSSOUGHIAN: These guys are insecure. It has nothing to do with what they are putting out there. They are so insecure because they have these
over privileged, you know, fathers that are so successful, and that they are so insecure about that, they ended up acting out in ways in which women
are objects.
DR. DREW: OK. We have come full circles with this conversation. So, Claudia, maybe if they were switched to couple of times may be they would
have fallen in line. No?
JORDAN: Well, I just feel this guy -- I mean it has been said already, he is clearly a jerk and he is entitled. Obviously, I am assuming there is
some insecurity issues. Maybe we will see, if we see the tape, we will see why. But the fact he has to record these women --
SCHACHER: Oh, I like it.
JORDAN: The fact he has to record these women and exploit them. I had someone try to exploit me before and I think it is ridiculous. And, you
know, he deserves everything he gets. I mean trashing his apartment and pouring a drink on his computer. That should be the least of his worry.
DR. DREW: Anahita.
SEDAGHATFAR: The fact that everyone is throwing out the fact that this guy was wealthy or he is entitled, I mean. We cover stories on your
show every single day that involves middle class normal people. They are child molesters, teachers having sex with student. This has nothing to do
with him having money or coming from a privilege background at all.
VOSSOUGHIAN: I think so. It completely does.
SEDAGHATFAR: How is he different from any other criminal.
VOSSOUGHIAN: His father was really famous. His father was a really well known attorney.
DR. DREW: But, Sam -- But, Anahita, you actually defend cases like this. You prosecute cases like this.
SEDAGHATFAR: I do.
DR. DREW: Have you noticed any trend in your experience?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I mean, I think you see in all walks of life, Dr. Drew. I have seen teenagers try to do this. I have seen married women
that are having affairs. Their husbands try to blackmail them in this fashion. So, to say that he is entitled to his father who was a lawyer, I
think that is no part of this. And, quite frankly, that is a good thing for him; because if you are on trial, you are facing felony counts, you are
facing jail time. You better damn well believe that you want the best attorney defending you in that case.
DR. DREW: Well, I think -- Sam, maybe we are like adult rated by the film "Wall Street", where we think, they must all behave like that, you
know? I do not know. I do not know.
SCHACHER: And, he glamorized that. I was like, "Oh! OK, Leo."
(LAUGHING)
JORDAN: I just cannot believe that someone --
DR. DREW: Go ahead, Claudia.
SCHACHER: That was really a good movie.
JORDAN: It does not matter if he is successful or not, because scum bags come from all demographics.
DR. DREW: That is right.
JORDAN: But, the fact that he even tried it, to make up that defense about the dog. I mean I have trouble uploading videos to YouTube sometimes
and the fact that he even tried that --
DR. DREW: I would say that what we have learn said that Anahita would never allow the doggy defense.
SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely not.
DR. DREW: I get that. Hang on, guys. Let`s keep this panel together. And, let`s keep this conversation going. I want to remind you
that you can us any time on Instagram @drdrewhln. And, we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW (voice-over): Claudia Jordan terrified after saying no deal to a stalker`s extortion.
JORDAN: So, within a week he started showing up to other events that I was attending but never inside, just the parking garage, the alley. I
already cried all morning.
DR. DREW: OK.
JORDAN: I have had chilled. I have a butcher knife hanging underneath my bed. I do not stay at my house all night.
DR. DREW: All right.
JORDAN: No. No. I just do not want it cry again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Back with Sam, Yasmin, Anahita, and Claudia. We are talking about -- We have been discussing a banker who is accused of
secretly videotaping as sexual encounters with three women. Claiming he set it up as sort of motion activated device to check for his dog, to watch
his dog. And, yet they have video of him setting it up in someone else`s house.
SCHACHER: Yes.
DR. DREW: Claudia, that was you we were just watching your story about a stalker. Is there an update on that story?
JORDAN: Well, actually after he was arrested the first time, he was sentenced and then he got out early -- there was overcrowding. And, it was
his first offense, believe it or not. And, he violated parole and he came up to the radio station I was working at twice, trying to get a letter to
me and trying to get at me. So, he was arrested. And, when he was arrested, he had a lot of writing on his walls about myself and another
popular R&B singer.
DR. DREW: Wow! Oh, no.
JORDAN: And, so he had to serve -- he is finishing the sentence as three years. He is still in prison. It was scary. I had to go to court
one day and he just -- A lot of times stalkers want it see you, even if it is in court. He was blurting out weird stuff. This guy is a maniac.
DR. DREW: Is he sick? Is he getting treatment or is it just one of those, you know, a personality problem?
JORDAN: I think he just has a personality problem. But, I mean I suspect there is mental illness there. And, I hope he is getting the help
because I mean you do not drive 35 miles to someone`s house. He removed a screen off my window and was looking in my house at me.
DR. DREW: So scary.
SCHACHER: Scary stuff.
DR. DREW: Yasmin, you want to make a point about the guy in the video tapes.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Yes. You know, I wanted to make a point to Anahita because she talked about the fact that he was affluent and does not
necessarily adjust his behavior. Did you guys remember that kid who claims affluenza.
DR. DREW: Yes.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Drinking and driving and killing some kids? I mean there you have it. Affluenza. He was affluent, and there you go.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, the problem with that is that is not even a viable defense. That is not even a condition. That meant absolutely nothing. I
think Dr. Drew commented a lot about that as well.
DR. DREW: Although, Anahita, he seemed delighted by the attempt they made with that defense. You could not hide the glee that came across your
face with the creative nonsense of affluenza. Yasmin, thanks for bringing that up. I agree.
VOSSOUGHIAN: I think, Dr. Drew, you can corroborate the fact when you grow up in a certain environment, especially with a socio economic level,
it adjusts how we act and decisions we make and the people that we become. And, I think that certainly is a case in this matter as well. I think we
can all agree on that.
DR. DREW: Well, it is complicated, but Yasmin go ahead.
SCHACHER: No. I think Anahita wants to see bring out the brain.
(LAUGHING)
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. Dr. Drew show us how the brain changes when you grow up affluent.
DR. DREW: It is not anatomic. It is not structural. No. I cannot do that.
SCHACHER: But, I think in this case, it is the fact that not only did he have a privileged background but he clearly takes zero
accountability. And, he objectifies women. That is how I saw him as entitled.
DR. DREW: Unless, counsellor, he seeks a certain kind of female partner and they all turned on him in some interesting way. And , they
were consenting at least verbally to all of this. Why he would put that up on social media, I cannot imagine.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is a possibility.
DR. DREW: Right. There is something in there.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, the good news is, Dr. Drew, that this is a crime in all 50 states to secretly tape somebody. And, actually New York is one of
the first states that makes it a felony.
DR. DREW: Well, let me ask you this. What makes it secret? You have to have someone`s written consent? How do we know they did not say OK
to him.
SEDAGHATFAR: Rigth. Well, that is going to be the issue here. Here he is claiming they did consent. Initially he said it was the doggy
recorder. Then he said later on they did consent. And, the girl is just getting back at me because she was jealous I was with other women. He is
in jail. Seeing four years.
DR. DREW: OK. Show of hands. Bad dude.
SCHACHER: Yes.
DR. DREW: Show of hands?
SCHACHER: Like two hands.
JORDAN: Two hands.
DR. DREW: And, Anahita cannot tell.
SEDAGHATFAR: I cannot.
DR. DREW: She cannot tell until the evidence is out.
SEDAGHATFAR: Exactly.
DR. DREW: Well, we are just guessing based on the evidence we have so far. Listen, I got -- Thank you, panel. I got a very important
interview with the women whom everyone had wanted to speak to an she only chose to speak to us. We have a preview of that interview. It is really a
stunning, stunning interview. In-depth with a woman who killed her own child. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DR. DREW: We speak quite a bit on this show about mental health and mental illness and how it affects behavior and the relation between mental
illness and criminality or what seems to criminality, and the fact that mental illness and the behaviours that occur when someone is mentally ill
is not something under volitional choice. We have a big exclusive tomorrow giving a rare insight into this. Sheila Shesam killed her on child. Did
you had the chance to meet this woman?
SCHACHER: I did not have the chance to meet the woman, Dr. Drew, but I have seen clips. And, Oh, my gosh, is it tragic. It is fascinating. I
have so many questions for you.
DR. DREW: OK. She was found not guilty of murder because she was in fact insane at the time. But, the story is hair raising. Here is a
preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEILA SHEESHAM, MOM WHO KILLED HER OWN CHILD: I thought at first, if I kill myself, then they will not have no reason to come. And, I was going
down the hallway toward the bathroom and I was like, my kids. You know, they are going to -- they are going to rape my kids. They are going
torture my kids. They are going to mutilate my kids. And, I thought that if -- if I killed my kids and then killed myself, that there would not be
anybody to hurt them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW: Those were all, Sam, paranoid dilutions that were driving her behavior. In fact the people that saw her that night said that she was
is wild you could not even communicate. This woman and her daughter, the daughter herself, carried her dead brother out of the home.
They both join me for a very intensive discussion about mental illness, about treatment, about family support. That will be Wednesday
night at 9:00 Eastern time. And, we get into this issue of what is evil and what`s mental illness.
SCHACHER: And, she seems much better now -- much, much better.
DR. DREW: She is way better. She spent years in a psychiatric hospital and she is a lot better. But, she talks about what it is to live
with this guilt. And, there were aspects that made my guts twist.
SCHACHER: Just hearing her just now gave me chills. Is it almost ten years?
DR. DREW: I think it is about right. Ten years tomorrow. Watch us. "Forensic Files" starts right now.
END
