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Dr. Drew

Possible Reasons for Charlie Bothuell`s 11 Day Disappearance; Story Behind the Woman Who Killed Her Own Son in the Midst of a Psychiatric Break; Oldest Daughter Held Little Patrick in Her Arms as He Died

Aired July 02, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, basement boy outrage. Hear from his family about his 11-day disappearance and his hideout in the

cellar.

Plus, exclusive.

SHEILA SHEA, MOTHER OF VICTIM: I thought that if I killed my kids and then killed myself that there wouldn`t be anybody to hurt them.

PINSKI (voice-over): Mental illness led this woman to kill her own child. Now, just days out of treatment she`s speaking. Nine years to the day

after she stabbed him to death.

SHEA: It is unbearable for me at times.

PINSKY (voice-over): It`s a rare and personal look at mental illness in America.

Let`s get started.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Welcome. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.

Coming up, why did a mother kill her own son? What did it do to her family? How did she go on? I will speak to her and her daughter in an

exclusive interview.

SAMANTHA SCACHER, HLN HOST: Yes, Dr. Drew, I have seen part of this interview. Oh, my gosh. There`s so much to learn about mental illness and

I cannot wait to see the rest.

PINSKY: There`s a lot to learn. But the story will cut through you. There`s time when she was talking I felt like there was a knife in my own

gut.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: First off here, we got more drama in case of 12-year-old, Charlie Bothuell. The attorney representing the stepmother says, he does expect

charges and tonight the cousin of Charlie`s mother is talking.

Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHARLIE BOTHUELL IV: I love my son.

MAURICE SHIPPINGS, UNCLE OF CHARLIE BOTHUELL V: To my man Mr. Charlie, his father, you`re a coward dude, stone cold coward.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI is using a forensic child interview specialist to talk to the 12-year-old about what really happened when he

was missing for days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Witness specialist who specializes in interviewing children.

SHIPPINGS: When the Feds get on the case, they make sure everything is done right and then they grab them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The stepmother was the one alerting Bothuell`s father that he had broken the rules by getting off of an exercise machine to go to

the bathroom. They say it`s what precipitated his hiding in this closet and then sneaking upstairs for food.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the stepmom allegedly threw him down there to protect him, why wasn`t he given food?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had food, just not enough. He looked like hell when he got out of it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett, social commentator and host of hiphollywood.com, Leeann Tweeden, social commentator and host of the

Tomboys podcast on Blog Talk Radio and Evy Poumpouras, security expert and former special agent in the secret agent.

And Sam, there is some breaking news, I understand. What do you know?

SCHACHER: Yes, Dr. Drew. The stepmother`s attorney, the man that we have seen on camera a few times, he says that Charlie, who is at the biological

mother`s home, his father had tried to reach out to him at the mother`s home but she has hung up on him. Also, the police are expected to release

their findings anytime now.

PINSKY: Yes. Now, Evy, now you, last time I spoke to you, you said you would not interview a child but yet they are -- have some sort of a

forensic expert that does this. What is this person going to do? A, And I wonder if there`s ever a situation that you would polygraph a child at this

age.

EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: You can interview children, you just have to be trained in interviewing children. The FBI has a special program in

which they train their agents and they have specialists that handle victim children that children, excuse me, that are victims and witnesses. Now the

one thing you would not, Dr. Drew, do is polygraph a victim, especially a child, and then usually you typically don`t even polygraph victims in

general unless law enforcement thinks there`s something not quite right whether victims perhaps might be lying. Those are only the cases. But

children, I have to tell you, in all of my years of experience, I`ve never seen it and never done one.

PINSKY: In any, Evy, anything new you think going on with this case? Do you have any or suspicions about the dad or the mom or how this went down

or why the kid cousin in the basement?

POUMPOURAS: I think a lot of the pieces are starting to come together. It`s an abusive house hold. The father was abusing the child. But I think

the mother is also obviously culpable there. You can`t just say, well, you know, I took him in the basement and pretended nothing happened. The child

had marks on him. He was beaten with pipes. I mean, these are the reports coming in. So both parties should be held accountable. Again, this is an

abusive, abusive parenting relationship. It`s just - it`s unacceptable.

PINSKY: Leeann, your thoughts?

LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, Dr. Drew, I was there actually, we were doing the show last week when Nancy Grace was on in the

green room and I saw the live, you know when he got the news. And we all thought something was off with the dad.

PINSKY: We started comparing him to balloon boy`s dad --

TWEEDEN: Right.

PINSKY: -- because we thought maybe - we couldn`t figure out why he reacted the way he did.

TWEEDEN: Right. I would have ripped off my cable and been at the house grabbing my child and hugging him if I really thought he was gone and that

I wasn`t going to find him.

But you know the first thing I thought, Dr. Drew, was I wondered if the kid was autistic by any chance. And you know, I did some research, and I only

did this because, you know, you get the feeling sometimes that parents that can`t deal with kids that have emotional problems or they are, you know,

they say that he had some -- he wouldn`t listen to them and stuff. Then you beat them and do things to children that are a little expensive. Come

to find out, their children, the dad and the stepmom, actually have two children together and we know that one for sure is autistic. So I don`t

know if this is like, you know, them taking it out on the kid not knowing how to deal with, not knowing what to do with it.

PINSKY: Let me refrain that. Have you one comment on this. Maybe he has some sort of a disorder, maybe its psychopathy, may its psychiatric or

something.

TWEEDEN: We don`t know that.

PINSKY: And I`m not blaming the victim. I`m trying to understand how these parents ended up in this spot.

TWEEDEN: Right.

PINSKY: And that`s a possibility, always, that this kid was being mishandled but it`s a difficult child.

Evy, do you think that`s a possibility?

POUMPOURAS: Look, I do think, yes, it`s a possibility. But sometimes certain parents for whatever reason don`t like a specific child.

PINSKY: That`s your thing. That was your hot baby thing, too.

POUMPOURAS: You know what? I`ve actually worked a case, a mother had triplets and for one reason there was one child she did not like and she

abused that specific child but did not abuse the other two.

PINSKY: Well Vanessa, when you have triplets you go a little bit psychotic, the dad and the mom.

(CROSSTALK)

VANESSA BARNETT, HOST, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: You know.

PINSKY: Personal experience with this. And listen -- by the way, you know, this is a completely separate topic, but women, moms have fantasies

about hurting their kids. That`s a kind of a normal thing that they go through and it`s when they do it then it`s become abnormal.

Vanessa, go ahead.

BARNETT: I don`t think it has anything to do with him being a difficult child. The father has gone on record saying he was overweight that`s why I

worked him so hard and made him get on the treadmill for four thousand counts. And he went on to say he didn`t do his chores. This isn`t a

difficult child. This isn`t a difficult child. This isn`t a child that, whether not he has behavioural issues or autism or anything else, they went

way too far. They beat him with a pipe. He was bleeding. He has marks all over his body. No matter what, they went too far and they need to be

held accountable.

PINSKY: They`re not going to get parent of the year award. They`re going to get trouble.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Is it exclusively bad parents so the kid`s behaviour is related to that only?

We`ll hear more details coming out. We`re going to hear more from the cousin in a second.

And later, I have my exclusive interview with a woman who psychiatric disorder led her to murder her own child. We`re going to have the

behaviour bureau watch this interview standby and analyze it with me.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHIPPINGS: How would you do against a real man, Jack?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maurice Shippings wants some justice for his cousin`s young son, Charlie Bothuell V missing for days and then found in his

father`s basement.

Court records show, Charlie`s father said he disciplined the boy with a PVC pipe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a lot of things that we considered to be abusive that in other culture, they are just considered corporal punishment

or just considered discipline.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Physical punishment is not an effective form of parenting.

PINSKY: Would you agree-

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Discipline them corporately - corpoling, I mean I use the belt.

PINSKY: Why? Why? Why use the pipe?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s either mom punishing him, mom doing it or the police doing it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam. Did Charlie Bothuell`s dad and step mom abuse him so much that he himself ran and hid himself away for 11 days? Sam, what do

you think? You think mom sending him down there? You think the kid running away? You think it`s a combination?

SCHACHER: Well, I think that the kid initially ran away because of the abuse, Dr. Drew. And then I think he came back and that`s why the FBI

missed him and then I think the parents hid him after the fact because they wanted to extend their 15 minutes of fame. That`s my theory.

PINSKY: So, both balloon boy and basement boy.

OK. The Behavior Bureau tonight, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist and professor of Pepperdine University, Jennifer Keitt and life couch and radio

host, Evy Poumpouras.

And you can be a part of the show tonight, Tweeting us right now @Dr.DrewHLN #BehaviorBureau.

Here now is more from the mom`s cousin. You saw him in a piece a few minutes ago. Here he is again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHIPPINGS: That`s a human being, a walking, thinking, logical reasonable person and you`re out here beating this person like a dog? The whole thing

don`t sit right. But I want the say this. I want to see justice done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Jennifer, it seems that the cousin is accusing the dad of being really abusive. Is that your sense of what that was? Did you even believe

that guy?

JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Well you know I agree with that. And by definition, abuse is cruel, regular, abusive situations and punishments for

human beings. If the evidence proves the way that it`s going, Dr. Drew, I mean obviously this father has abused his son. It`s different than

disciplining. It`s different than spanking. It`s different.

PINSKY: Do you think that he could have, like I was postulating in the last block, that he could have gotten himself in this situation because the

kid was so problematic that he didn`t know what to do? Not to justify it but just try to understand how people can go off the rail so badly. Or did

the dad think this is how you do it?

KEITT: Well, you know, I think a combination of the two. I have a son; my son now is 20 years old. I tell you, there were times I could have

strangled that boy. It is different. I`ve got three girls, I`ve got one boy and men are different. Raising a child is different. I am not in any

means saying you need to abuse your sons but I do know it is a different situation. I don`t know whether Charlie was autistic or whether he had,

you know, disciplinary problems. But I know he did go to the father because mom threw up her hands and did not know what to do with him and dad

had to step.

PINSKY: And Judy, he was homeschooled and you think that factored in here?

JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Very much so, Dr. Drew. Home schooling brings three really big concerns for me. One, they`re completely isolated

that makes them more at risk for abuse. Remember, oftentimes the teachers and school personnel who are the ones who report possible abuse and neglect

so they lose that part. Secondly, home schooling really derails the social development of most children and when they try to reintegrate into society

at young adult, they have a really difficult time. And thirdly, home school is not regulated in most states. Michigan is one of the least

regulated states. There are no checks and balances here. So, this is dig -- bigger and bigger hole that this family have dug themselves into through

home school.

PINSKY: Evy, your thoughts?

POUMPOURAS: I think a lot of what Judy was just saying is accurate. Home schooling sometimes is just a way for parents, maybe that don`t want to

actually get up and take their children to school, maybe help them with their home work and it`s an easy copout.

The Michigan law for home schooling, I look it up, I look at it carefully, there are no standards and there are standardized tests that you need to

give the child. How do you know the child is learning? And Michigan law has to prove that the parent the not doing a good job. So they actually

have to investigate if somebody is home schooling to see if the parent is actually doing what they need to do or not doing. It`s a very difficult

system.

PINSKY: Samantha.

SCHACHER: Yes, Dr. Drew, I`ll tell you why I think this is a classic abuse case and the father being controlling because the older sister, Charlie`s

eldest sister did speak out and she actually defended the father by saying that her dad disciplined her the same exact way that he did Charlie. So I

don`t think that Charlie has behavioral problems because we have a history here of parenting technique, if that`s what you want to call it.

PINSKY: Right. You can call it discipline.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: He disciplined with love. I don`t know.

Well listen, we need to be very careful about hiding behind I home school my child, therefore, I love them more or I`m doing something good for them.

Sometimes it`s because they`re hiding the children and continue to perpetrate some bizarre delusional system that they don`t want to be

disturbed about, number one. And number two, something stayed with me all day which is the idea of cultural relativism. You know, yes, there is - we

do need culturally sensitive but there are some things are not OK. We all agree, female genital mutilation, not OK. Abusing kids, not OK even if

that`s your culture, it`s not OK. And so we have to be diligent that we don`t have to platitudes.

Now, what`s coming up next, I`m very excited about it, it`s an interview with a mother. I use that term intentionally. A mother who tells me why

made her stab her boy to death. It is a moving interview. It`s intense. The Behavior Bureau will stand by and watch this with me and join me later

in the show and we`ll get into it.

But first you`ll see the interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEA: If somebody had told me, you know, Sheila, you`re going to go insane and you`re going to kill one of your kids, I would have told them they

didn`t know what they were talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with Sam.

Now, many of the stories we deal with here every night involved psychiatric disorders with mental health. There`s a lot of judgement, a lot of shame,

a lot of stigma and very little understanding why, for instance, sometimes these disorders manifest themselves violently. People don`t seem to get

this is not a choice, this is not abolition, it`s a disorder, brain state manifestation of an illness.

This woman, Sheila Shea, nine years ago today, she has a psychiatric decompensation, stabbed her son - her six-year-old to death. It is a heart

breaking story. She was declared insane at the time, ordered to a psychiatric hospital for years.

I spoke with her exclusively just days after her release. Here`s what he tells about why she killed her son.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEA: I was in an abusive relationship. It just triggered all of this paranoia. I knew that people were there trying to harm me. My abuser

tried to set me on fire. I had a mental breakdown because I thought people were after me. I got very paranoid.

They had me diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. I started taking medication, took it for six months, quit taking the medication. I started

getting paranoid again.

PINSKY: So, tell me what happened.

SHEA: My kids - two of my kids were asleep in the bedroom. My daughter was asleep on the couch because she had just had surgery and my other son

was watching TV in the living room. And I stayed up all night long. And - -

PINSKY: You`re paranoid, you`re worried that somebody was coming in?

SHEA: Yes. I -- at about 7:30 in the morning, I tried to call my sister on her cell phone and the cell phone did this really wonky thing and it

then gave me a busy signal on a cell phone and I was like, they`ve, you know, they`ve got my sister, they`ve got my mom, they`re killing them.

And I ran in the kitchen and I got a knife and was going to go kill myself because my abuser had told me that I was safe as long as I stayed with

them, you know. And I thought at first I was like, if I kill myself then they won`t have no reason to come.

And I was going down the hallway towards the bathroom and I was like, my kids, you know, they`re going to rape my kids, they`re going to torture my

kids, they`re going to mutilate my kids. And I thought that if I killed my kids and then killed myself that there wouldn`t be anybody to hurt them.

And I thought that at least I would be merciful, that I wouldn`t torture them or torment them, anything like that.

And I went in the bedroom and I sat on the edge of the bed and I put my hand on Patrick`s chest, and he opened his eyes and I don`t remember

anything after that until my oldest son body slammed me and he was screaming and he was like mom, mom, and I was like, they`re coming, you

know, they`re coming, they`re coming. And he wrestled the knife away from me. And I fell on the floor and I got up and I ran in the kitchen and I

grabbed another knife and I stabbed myself three times in the chest. And the knife kept bending, which I was screaming that the knife, I was like

just screaming that it wouldn`t kill me.

And then my son came and grabbed me from behind and had me in a body lock and he walked me outside and I sat down on the curb and all these police

showed up and my in-laws lived across the street and they came and they took Patrick across the street and the fire department and the ambulance

showed up over there. And they were getting things -- it was just really confusing. And all I could do was just sit there and ask God to forgive

me.

And when they put me in handcuffs, they two youngest children came up to me and all I could tell them was I swore to God I loved them and that I didn`t

mean it and that`s all I could say. It was that I swore to God that I loved them.

And I lived my whole life for my kids and if somebody had told me, you know, Sheila, you`re going to go insane and you`re going to kill one of

your kids, I would have told them they didn`t know what they were talking about because it is unbearable for me at times.

PINSKY: How do you live with that?

SHEA: It`s really hard. In some days I would rather be the woman screaming in the suicide tank pulling out my hair. And some days I don`t

want to look in the mirror. Some days I don`t want to get out of bed.

PINSKY: Have you been the woman in the suicide tank?

SHEA: Yes. I had huge patches of hair missing, banked my head up against the wall. I screamed and screamed and screamed and I probably didn`t sleep

for almost three weeks because I couldn`t. Every time I lay down I would see my son`s eyes open up and it just -- it`s more than I could stand.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh.

PINSKY: Yes. It`s almost more than you can stand hearing the story.

SCHACHER: its heart wrenching, Dr. Drew, her son, her. This could essentially happen to anybody. And what really caught my mind or just by

her saying that she stopped taking the medication and then I later read that it was because she thought that he had cured herself like a cold. It

just speaks to how ignorant we are about mental illness.

PINSKY: Yes. And it`s hard to get people to keep taking their medicine who have bipolar disorder or who have schizophrenia. It`s one of the

biggest challenges with it, but now, Sheila learned the hard way.

Now, next up, why does Sheila say she`s the luckiest woman in the world? You`re not going to believe that. She will tell us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEA: I stabbed myself three times in the chest and when I was in jail I tried to hang myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

I know how the world views people like me, you know, and it`s not like I haven`t already been called those things. For me, it`s like anything

anybody says to me is not as bad as what I have not already said to myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam.

A mom stabbed her six-year-old son to death during a severe psychiatric decomposition nine years ago today. She spent years in a psychiatric

facility and released days before that interview last week. Now back to this exclusive interview with Sheila Shea.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

I think I`m the luckiest woman in the world because I did this horrendous thing, I changed the lives of so many people, and my kids are like, love

you, mom. You know, you`re a great mom, you know. And they`ll tell me, you know, mom, you know, you busted your butt for us. And I`m like -- I

did what I was supposed to do. You know I took care of my kids. I live my life for my kids.

PINSKY: People who are watching this are going to wonder, what about Patrick?

SHEA: I -- it hurts me to know that he is never going to go to high school, he is never going to have his first kiss. He is never going to

have his --

PINSKY: Because of his mom.

SHEA: Yes.

PINSKY: His mom`s mental illness.

SHEA: Yes. And, it is like I say it all the time, you know. I would sell my soul if I could take it back. I cannot change it. I cannot rearrange

it. I would change it in a split second if I could, but I cannot. And, it is like I do not mean like I cannot. It is blow sake. I can go through my

day and I can be happy. I can be sad. I can be angry. I can show the whole range of emotions in a day. But, when I lay down at night, every

night, you know, I am right there in that moment. And, I wish I could change it. I wish I could take it back. I would do anything if I could.

PINSKY: Do you share these thoughts with your kids?

SHEA: They know how I feel about it.

PINSKY: Because after all, if somebody -- if you were taken away or put away, they would have a big loss.

SHEA: Yes.

PINSKY: It is not fair to them.

SHEA: No. I tried to commit suicide twice.

PINSKY: How close did it get?

SHEA: I stabbed myself three times in the chest and when I was in jail I tried to hang myself. And, I asked for the lethal injection when I first

met my lawyer. I said, "I want to die. I want you to give me the lethal injection." And she said, "No. We are going to go with this GIR thing."

And, I was like, "Please, I just want to die." I spent 17 months, I do believe, in the county jail and out of the 17 months I spent in county

jail. I spent 14 months of those by myself locked in a box.

PINSKY: Solitary confinement.

SHEA: Yes. I was in solitary confinement for 26 days when I tried to hang myself. The rest of the time I spent it in the suicide tank on the medical

ward.

PINSKY: How did you try to hang yourself if you are in an empty cell?

SHEA: Oh, I had a sheet. I had a sheet and I ripped it up. And, they had a big long white bar and a woman was standing at the door and they called

in a bunch of guards. The lady kept saying, "She is not going to do it. She cannot do it. She cannot do it."

And, I flipped the sheet up over the light bar and dropped to my knees and was hanging there when they all came running in. I told somebody, I said,

"I want to live a good life." And I do not mean like riches and cars. I want to live a wholesome good life because I feel like I carry Patrick`s

life with me now, too. You know? And, if I were to go out and run amok, then what would that say to my son`s life?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAM SCHACHER, HOST "POP TRIGGER": This is beyond, beyond tragic. Dr. Drew, how long was she in the mental facility?

PINSKY: It was four and a half years and a medical ward for three months, then a mental health residential facility for something like four years

after that -- three years after that.

SCHACHER: Wow. OK.

PINSKY: But Sam, that last statement she made to me was one of the more telling. If people want to condemn somebody like this, she carries that

life she took with her. I get confused by that myself.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: And, let`s remind ourselves, she wanted to die.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: Everybody that wants to condemn her. She asked for a lethal injection.

SCHACHER: Right. And, she tried to commit suicide twice. But, when she was in solitary confinement, was she treated for her mental illness at all?

PINSKY: You know, I do not think so in the county jail.

SCHACHER: Wow.

PINSKY: She supposed to get something. But, there is a jail ward for mental illness. I do not think she was on that. And, you know, the real

treatment came later. She got a lot of very good treatment.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: Next up, Sam, I talk to Sheila`s daughter. The question you would imagine she could never forgive her mother for killing her little brother,

not only killing her little brother, but putting her and her siblings through the trauma of killing her little brother in front of them.

But, for me this was the more difficult part of the interview. Some of the things -- The scene that the daughter told me was phenomenal. But, her

courage and the way she understands these things, you have got to see this.

SCHACHER: OK. Wow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNA SHEA, DAUGHTER OF SHEILA SHEA: And, then he asked me for help. And, then she just kind of went a little limp.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEILA SHEA: I thought that if I killed my kids and then killed myself that there would not be anybody to hurt them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That is that delusional thinking, Sam. That is what she -- people do not get the understanding that there are psychiatric disorders,

addiction being one of them, where thinking is the problem. The thoughts you have drive behaviors that are pathological. The average person is not

used to thinking that way.

SCHACHER: That is why you always say treat above the neck as you would below the neck.

PINSKY: There you go. It is illness of the brain. Now, she has three other children were in the house when she had the psychiatric break and

stabbed the 6-year-old. Her oldest daughter -- it is breathtaking. Her oldest daughter held little Patrick in her arms as he died. Can you

imagine this being a young sister of a 6-year-old and seeing this. And, now she joined me, Jeanna is her name, and she joined me and the mom in

this exclusive interview. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNA SHEA: I remember I woke up early that morning and she was sitting on the couch across from me. And, I remember her just kind of staring into

space. And, I asked her if she was OK. And, she says that "No matter what, I love you." And, I was like "I love you too. Are you OK." And,

she is like, "Yes, I am fine. You can go back to sleep." And, so, I just kind of rolled over and went back to sleep. And, then the next thing I

woke up to a lot of screaming and a lot of chaos.

PINSKY: What did you think after you sort of became aware of what happened?

JEANNA SHEA: I saw that my mom had a knife in her hand and there was blood on the knife. And, my older brother Clifford had happened to be there and

he was wrestling with her and the whole time he just kept yelling at me, and telling me to call 911. And, I was like "OK, what do I say?" Like I

still was not really sure of what had happened. And, so he just kept yelling call 911.

And, then eventually he told me that -- he said, "Mom had stabbed Patrick." And, at the that moment I was just like, OK. This is a lot bigger than

what I -- I never in a million years thought anything like that would ever happen. I took the phone from Will, and he was on the phone with 911.

I gave them my address and I told them everything and he had thrown back the covers and Patrick was laying there in the bed and there was blood

everywhere at that point. And, I remember just telling, you know, 911 what was going on and where we were at. And, Will grabbed Patrick by the --

wrist, both wrists and slid him across the bed.

And, I was like you cannot do that. You have to lie him down flat. And, so he laid him on the floor. And, I remember telling 911 that I needed to

go because I had to take care of him. And, at that point I knew they already had our address and they were on their way.

So, I hung up and I remember holding Patrick and just asking him to talk to me and telling him to say his name, and asking him if he was OK. And, the

first thing he said to me was, "Tell mom, I love her." And, at that point it was just like, wow, I did not know what to say. So, I just kept trying

to get him to talk to me.

And, then he asked me for help. And, then he just kind of went a little limp. And, I walked into the kitchen. And my mom was in the fetal

position and my brother was in attempting to hold her hands and she was trying to stab herself repetitively.

I remember just looking at her hands and she had multiple knives in her hands. They took us to the police station and my mom was actually down the

hall from us and we could hear her screaming that they were coming to get her and that they were coming to get us. And she was worried.

And, I remember her like asking about us and asking that if everything was OK. And, she kept trying to pull her hair out. I mean it was something I

had never seen, so it was really sad.

PINSKY: When did you get back with your mom?

JEANNA SHEA: She wrote me a letter and it was really hard to read at first.

PINSKY: Why?

JEANNA SHEA: Because she apologized and it was very -- in my heart, like I knew that this is not something -- my mom worked three jobs and always

provided for us. And, so I knew that she would never do anything to hurt us unless it was really serious. And, so -- and not that that makes it OK.

But, I knew that it was so much more than just what everyone had said. And, so --

PINSKY: What had everyone said?

JEANNA SHEA: I mean all of the gad things that people say whenever a mother hurts a child.

PINSKY: That is one of the things we are going to get at. How do we make people understand the difference. Sometimes it is just horrible.

JEANNA SHEA: Yes.

PINSKY: Was anybody cruel to you.

SHEILA SHEA: A couple of people said some things that I was like, did you really just say that?

PINSKY: Like what?

SHEILA SHEA: Somebody asked me how come I killed Patrick and not William. Yes.

PINSKY: Wow.

SHEILA SHEA: And, I was like did you really just say that? You know, it is not like I was like eeny meeny miny mow. I was in that state and it was

like I was going to kill everybody. Did it matter who I --

PINSKY: Got to first?

SHEILA SHEA: Yes. I get agitated and angry when people tell me, you know, you have a new life now. It is like I would take a beating every day the

rest of my life if I could have my old life back. I am not ever going to forgive myself because I am just not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHACHER: I do not know how you got through that interview, Dr. Drew. But a question for you because Sheila stopped taking her medication before -

PINSKY: Yes.

SCHACHER: So, what is to keep her from doing that again?

PINSKY: Yes. That was a big component of her treatment. She was in there many years in psychiatric hospital and in there she learned how to medicine

works and how the medicine makes all of the paranoid thoughts go away.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: For people that want us, you know, call it an excuse. Why this thing can be an advantage when you put people on medication, by the way.

And, then checklists that she has to go through to make sure she had taken her medication to check her thinking to understand what`s happening. She

has a whole series of behavioral checklists and she now relies heavily on her family too, who are also very deeply educated.

SCHACHER: They are remarkable.

PINSKY: She is amazing. She the only one I met.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: I just -- the way she told the story, it was just breathtaking. It was phenomenally brave young girl. All right, next up, the behavior

bureau has been watching and we are going to hear what they think after the break. But ahead, I will ask Sheila what she thinks about the death of a

little boy in a hot car allegedly at the hands of his father. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEILA SHEA: I know how the world views people like me, you know, and it is not like I have not already been called those things. And it is like

for me it is like anything anybody says to me is not as bad as what I have already said to myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: You just watched my exclusive interview with Sheila Shea. This is the woman who killed her own son in the midst of a psychiatric break. The

behavior bureau has been watching this interview for the first time along with you all and myself. I want to get their thoughts. Let`s bring back

Vanessa, Leeann and Judy. So, the question I will ask -- Let me just get your all overall impression. Let`s go around the horn here. Vanessa, what

are your thoughts?

BARNETT: Like a lot of people I was initially very skeptical. I have trouble believing that there are these moments where women or men can

physically kill their children. I just could not believe it. I did not want to believe it. I did not understand the mental illness part of it.

After watching that I have to tweet about it and so many people on twitter felt the same way. They just did not buy it. They call it BS. But, after

seeing that, I really understand how it can be that moment and I am just worried now that she is out. Will things in her real life now take her

back there?

PINSKY: No. Unlikely -- it is a legitimate concern. Judy had the same concern. I talked to you before the show. That is what all of those years

of treatment were about is getting her structured in such a way that this is -- they do not let everybody out, by the way. She was clearly somebody

who was responding to these treatments. They watched her in a residential intermediate zone to see show she transition into the world.

Judy, do you think -- I noticed when you are watching, I was watching you guys watch the tape. And, Judy, the empathy on your face is something I am

accustomed to seeing in caretakers and it is different when you are used to going in with these people. Is that what`s missing in the world? The

ability to just get involved and be empathized with these illnesses.

HO: That is right, Dr. Drew. There is so much misunderstanding about mental illness. And, what you saw on my face was a genuine emotion as I am

listening to this woman`s story and understanding just how deep mental illness can affect everybody that we know.

It could be your father. It could be your mother. It could be your close friend. And, as I was watching this tape I was thinking about all of the

extensive treatment that she must have gone through. It can even be able to piece together this story.

Just even talking to her you can tell that she has gotten over what you described as the thought disorder phase of her schizophrenia where her

insight, her problem solving, her reality and her problem checking is all impaired and that`s the only way that she was able to do this to her son in

this particular moment.

PINSKY: You know what? I am getting angry when I think about this. Does somebody have to kill somebody to be able to get psychiatric care in this

country?

HO: Right.

PINSKY: Any of the four of you, got yield today? You would get five days of treatment in the psychiatric hospital. She killed somebody, she got

what she needed which was seven years of treatment. Leeann, what are you thoughts? I am upset about this.

TWEEDEN: You know, if you are watching me, I literally was crying the whole time because that one picture of her holding her little baby and then

that, that is about as old as my son Cain is right now. And, I just lost it.

And, you know -- you know me I am one of those like people are evil. You know, mental illness is just a crutch half the time. And, you know I

watched this woman and I saw the agony in her face. I feel just like Vanessa. I changed my mind and to look at how her own daughter who had to

hold -- it is so emotional to think that so many people were affected by that.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: Yes.

TWEEDEN: You know, Dr. Drew? It is so sad. And listening to Sheila speak I want to ask you this, and I had this question. She was really abused we

her boyfriend or her husband --

PINSKY: Yes.

TWEEDEN: Do you think that such abuse causes mental illness or did she have it before?

PINSKY: If she had it before for sure. But, abuse can precipitate all sorts of phenomenon in different stages of life. Judy, any thoughts?

DR. HO: That`s right. I think she had an underlying illness and a capacity to develop psychiatric disorder.

PINSKY: Right.

DR. HO: And, then she had extreme stressor. She had to care for four children in the midst of this extremely abusive relationship. And, what I

just want to say, too, Dr. Drew, is that the extensive treatment that she was prescribed to have being following through with very carefully, it

sounded like it had multiple components.

We know that cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the most effective way to treat schizophrenia. It sounds like she had that with the behavioural

checklist, thought challenging.

PINSKY: Yes. She did. Yes. She did.

DR. HO: Re-attributing her hallucinations to other internal sources.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

DR. HO: It sounds like she went through all of that very diligently and she wants to make a better life for herself and for Patrick.

PINSKY: And, yet, Vanessa, there are those people who would just say, "I do not care about any of that. Give her the lethal injection she wanted.

Everything is BS after that. She took a life. Eye for an eye. Hammer of this law prevails."

BARNETT: I mean I just saw all the tweets on the screen. They are still saying send her back to jail. I do not know if they do not get it. I do

not know if they do not may be have the compassion. May be they did not watch the entire interview.

I just -- After seeing that I am forever changed. And, I just know in my personal life, this is maybe getting too personal, but I believe god does

not make any mistakes and I just believe Patrick`s death will not be in vain. And, I just prayed that people have really learned from this story.

PINSKY: I hope you are right.

BARNETT: I am forever changed.

PINSKY: Well, Sam. Mission accomplished. Mission accomplished. One opinion changed.

SCHACHER: Well, absolutely. I mean, this woman did not kill her child. Mental illness killed her child. And, it is so important for us to have

this dialogue because of the stigma that is obviously associated with mental illness.

PINSKY: And, I would say, anyone who has mental illness, pay attention and take your damn meds.

SCHACHER: Please. Please.

PINSKY: Follow through your doctors. Treatment works. Treatment works. I cannot say that enough.

SCHACHER: I hope you have people surrounding you that will help you.

PINSKY: You said it takes a villager -- family, relationships, it`s important. Next up, Sheila herself gave me some thoughts about the dad who

is accused in the death of his son in a hot car. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEILA SHEA: You cannot say that I am a good person, but I had this horrible thing happen. If you have compassion and you have empathy, then

you can see that, you know, that I was mentally ill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Leeann and Judy. We spent some time understanding why this kind of thing happens. Separating mental illness

from the person, sometimes in certain situations. I asked Sheila if she had any insight about the parents like the dad who left his son in a hot

car until he tied, any insight to those sort of cases and here is what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEILA SHEA: I can feel for the man because it is just devastating, you know. And, then it becomes more devastating when it is by your hand. Then

you find out that you took a life and it is like, if you have a shred of humanity in you, you know, and you take a life. It is just -- it is

indescribable how it makes you feel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Leeann, you are moved by this?

TWEEDEN: You know, the difference that I see there between Sheila and the dad that left his son in the car. I feel like it was premeditated. Him

and the wife both researched leaving kids or animals in the car. So, it was different. It was not like they just had a psychotic break and at that

moment he killed his child.

PINSKY: Let`s take a look what she said about the ocean woman. Remember that woman.

TWEEDEN: Yes.

PINSKY: Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEILA SHEA: The lady that drove her children into the ocean was looking for a safe place. I was looking for a safe place. You know, when you are

mentally ill, something triggers and you focus in on that one thought, that one ideal. And, if you just get to that safe place, if you just do this,

everybody will be say. If I just do that, everybody will be safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, Judy that one thought is always distorted and disturbed.

TWEEDEN: That one thought is always distorted and disturbed, Dr. Drew. And with a lot of mothers who end up killing their children, it is exactly

what she is saying here. They are actually trying to protect their children, looking for a safe place. And, I am so glad that you featured

this interview. Because it just show that there really are two kinds of killers.

PINSKY: Yes.

TWEEDEN: There is mentally-ill kind that you can rehabilitate and then there are those who really just lost their minds, they are psychopath,

whatever you want to call them --

PINSKY: They are evils. Let`s call them evil. Those are evil. Right, Sam?

SCHACHER: Yes, absolutely. Lock those people up. But, it is hard sometimes, Dr. Drew, to wrap your head around it.

PINSKY: If you are not used to seeing it. I am going to show more of it. You are just not used to it. Judy, I think that is the deal. We hide

these things behind the walls of psychiatric hospitals. We have shame and stigma. Listen, we just need to describe it more clearly.

And, Vanessa, I want to thank you tonight because you brought it home for me. You really did. I expected you to be a tough nut to crack and it

meant a lot to me that you were able to listen to this and take it in and make meaning from it. It gives me faith that other people had the same

experience. I really want to thank you.

BARNETT: I thank you for opening my eyes honestly, I truly do.

PINSKY: And, then putting a nice bow around it by making meaning out of this. This child need not have died in vain if we all learn from this and

do something with this information that improves the lives for all of us.

SCHACHER: Look out for each other.

PINSKY: Agreed. Forensic Files, begins next.

END