Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Hobby Lobby 401(k)s and Birth Control; "Slenderman" Preteens Appear for Competency Hearing; River on Plane; Team USA

Aired July 02, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Joining me now is CNN business correspondent Alison Kosik.

I don't even know where to begin on this one, because this was a -- seriously, I had a giggle myself, thinking this had to be an accident.

Then I thought, it's no accident when you're in the middle of the biggest political storm all the way to the Supreme Court and yet your guys aren't aware of what your investments are in your very, very large 401(k).

So I'm just going to give them the benefit the doubt. Could it be an accident that some of those funds have those pharmaceuticals in them?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It really could be an oversight. These are huge funds that the employees of Hobby Lobby can invest in. Some of these funds have hundreds of stocks.

The pharmaceutical companies themselves within these funds, they make tons of different drugs, names like Pfizer, Teva, and Hobby Lobby might argue its employees are the ones who are making the investments, not the company, and the plan choices are likely decided by the plan administrator.

Here's the thing. There are ways that Hobby Lobby could strip out investments dealing with contraceptives. There are these funds called Catholic Values Funds on the market, and these funds kind of screen out certain types of companies.

Also, Hobby Lobby could ask its mutual fund management company to create a custom portfolio that would forbid investments in certain companies they're against. But doing that is expensive. It would mean higher fees for their 401(k) plans.

If you ask me, my thought is, if they're that fervent about opposing --

BANFIELD: Yeah, right.

KOSIK: -- maybe that should include investments too, but that's just my opinion.

BANFIELD: The last time I looked over my benefits, I couldn't even read the darn documents in the year I had to make the decision --

KOSIK: That's my point.

BANFIELD: But that's the point. If they had the time to read through the benefits documents to discover the kinds benefits they did not agree with, how could they have the same kind of scrutiny paid to their investments?

Yes, maybe it is the employees who are making the investments in the 401(k), but Hobby Lobby has the matching program, isn't that their money then, all their money?

KOSIK: Right, that's putting their money where their mouth is, exactly.

One other thing to keep in mind, these investments can also change. They may not change a lot, but they do change from year-to-year, especially for individual holdings.

There's actually a fund manager who buys and sells different stocks within the funds, so let's say as of December 31st, 2012, one of Hobby Lobby's 401(k) choices, a pharmaceutical company that makes that Plan B, that's a form of obviously emergency contraceptive.

We actually searched the fund, and it's not there anymore, so those shares were sold. So they can dip in and out, and you wonder if they're aware of that as well.

BANFIELD: It's on CNN now. So I think they're pretty aware of the controversy.

Hey, Alison. do me a favor. Call me if Hobby Lobby gets back to us with a comment about this. I'd really like to hear their side of this.

KOSIK: We are still waiting as always.

BANFIELD: A rational explanation, we're just waiting.

Alison Kosik, good to see you as always. Thanks, girl.

So, from what I like to call the "dropping like flies" file, Kentucky is the latest state to see its ban on same-sex marriage struck down. A federal judge ruled that Kentucky's ban violates the United States' Constitution's guarantee of equal protection under the law.

However, the judge did not set a date for the marriages to begin, because of course, as in many other cases, it's pending appeal.

And now Florida could be the next one on the list. Later today, a Miami judge is going to hear some arguments challenging Florida's current ban, so stay tuned.

Right now, gay and lesbian couples can legally marry in 19 states and the District of Columbia, and that pipeline is sure to be challenged all the way to SCOTUS. We're going to have some busy seasons ahead.

Video I'm about to show you looks like something out of a war movie, but this explosion in Philadelphia in a neighborhood was real. Look at that fireball, the details on what happened straight ahead, and if you can believe it, yes, there were two people in the middle of that fireball.

Then there's this, the in-flight movie gets interrupted by a river running through it. Yeah, that's an airplane, water gushing down the aisle.

What would you think the source of that water was if it happened to you? We're going to have that story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The man accused of being the mastermind of the deadly attack on the U.S. mission in Benghazi stood in a United States federal courtroom again today.

Ahmed Abu Khattala was inside one of those SUVs as they streamed along towards the courthouse. This was a detention hearing where the judge ordered Abu Khattala held in federal custody until his trial.

Khattala is formally charged with giving support to terrorists. Prosecutors tell us to expect a whole lot more. Some of the charges which could actually carry the death penalty.

The attack killed four Americans, including the United States ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens.

A stunning explosion rocking the streets of Philadelphia today. Surveillance captured it all. Whoa! A food truck erupted into a ball of fire, and a dozen people are now recovering from injuries, including second- and third-degree burns.

Investigators say they think a propane tank is to blame, and a mother and daughter were inside when it happened. They're being treated.

Olympian Oscar Pistorius has PTSD, officially depressed, also considered a suicide risk. All of this comes according to doctors who spent 30 days evaluating his mental health.

Pistorius is on trial for killing his girlfriend. Pistorius shows no evidence of abnormal aggression or psychopathic tendencies linked to rare rage-type murders is in intimate relationship, all official rulings. The doctor's conclusions are a slam dunk for the defense.

Two 12-year-old girls are charged as grown-ups, officially adults, accused of trying to stab their friend to death, inspired by an online bogeyman known as "Slenderman."

Both of the girls have finally made an appearance in court. It's an important one, where a judge orders that they are either competent or incompetent to stand trial. One of the girls had been ruled incompetent. No ruling was made on the second suspect's mental condition. Stay tuned on that one.

Wait a second, how is it that a 12-year-old can even be considered competent, and what does it mean anyway to have that ruling? This is always step one. It doesn't get much coverage, but if you're a defendant, you have to be able to understand the charges against you, and you have to be able to assist your defense. And that's a simple bar.

How can a 12-year-old meet that bar at all? Because they do it all the time.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: It's a fabulous point. You could look to all types of laws.

There's a reason why minors are treated differently than adults, right? There's a reason why when you're a minor, you know, certain things may apply. There's a reason why you go to juvenile court.

This may very well give the argument to the attorneys to have the case tried in juvenile court. Remember, we're in Wisconsin here. Under Wisconsin law, of course, it starts in, right, adult court, but the attorneys could make an application to reduce that and to go to juvenile court.

BANFIELD: Just happened in New York this week.

JACKSON: Absolutely. That's important also for a couple of reasons. It's important because of the length of time they could face.

Remember, if they're convicted in adult court, we're talking 60 years as opposed to juvenile court where on their 25th birthday if the judge decides to give them that, then they're released.

So, major distinctions here, but to the original question, briefly, Ashleigh, it's a great one. Because, remember, the mind functions differently as a juvenile, not to excuse the conduct that they engaged in, but certainly you have to question whether they should be held accountable as adults.

BANFIELD: Paul, it's important for people who watch court procedures to know the difference between insanity, because that comes far later in your defense, and that has a whole other set of conditions that you have to meet.

But competency is something that is really quick and easy to prove when you're a grown-up. Again, do you get what's happening, and can you help the guy beside you to get you out of this courtroom? So it's pretty easy.

But when you're talking about a 12-year-old kid, effectively, can a child ever truly understand what's happening, and can they ever really help that lawyer?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The Supreme Court of the United States says that they better be able to do that if they're going to face criminal penalties.

The Supreme Court in 1960 had a case called the Dusky case, which said any criminal defendant has to be competent to stand trial. You never hear it discussed in juvenile hearings, but it should be discussed because they go to jail like everybody else, but they go to a juvenile facility.

But it's a low bar.

BANFIELD: Why can't parents stand beside them to at least offer that guidance and say, I'm here as the guide for this person?

CALLAN: That is probably permitted. Remember, most juvenile proceedings are done in secrecy, and nobody knows what's going on in there. They do have lawyers and --

JACKSON: In front of a judge, not a jury.

CALLAN: Yes. And their parents can be present. And bear in mind that even a 12-year-old has to be able to understand the difference between right and wrong.

And the standard is so low, you're just saying to the 12-year-old, do you understand that if you did something wrong here, you can go to jail or to a juvenile facility?

That's really not too much more complicated than that. It's such a low standard. So I think probably the average 12-, 13-year-old, would be competent, technically, even in a juvenile proceeding.

BANFIELD: And, by the way, Ashleigh, it comes up in other types of issues as well.

I'm sure Paul's had many cases, and I've had cases as a prosecutor or defense attorney, where they're witnesses in proceedings. and for them to be witnesses they have to know between right from wrong and be competent.

CALLAN: I tried a murder case once where the chief witness in the case was 7-year-olds.

BANFIELD: I have covered a 7-year-old who actually ended up putting his mother away in a drowning case of a sibling.

CALLAN: And the judge questioned him on the stand, and he was found competent, and somebody went to prison base on that testimony --

BANFIELD: And I'll tell you what. Not the same case as yours, but the 7-year-old that I covered had completely different stories from one day to the next about what happened to his sister.

I mean, it was so --

JACKSON: Much like many witnesses that we interview, stories are changing.

BANFIELD: A friend of mine says her son takes a magic backseat to Jupiter, all the time. He's grown out of it now, but anyway, Joey Jackson, Paul Callan, as always, thank you for that.

JACKSON: Get me on that backseat.

BANFIELD: I want to be on it so often.

OK, so I laugh only because this next story is one of those -- however you put that into words.

Passengers on a plane get this midflight shock, water streaming down the aisle in between them as they're midflight.

Details on how it happened and what happened to the flight, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: You know, we are used to seeing kids running up and down the aisles of an airplane, sometimes even an animal gets out of its little, you know, carry-on cage. But like snakes on a plane? No, we've got something weirder perhaps. Cell phone pictures showing what passengers call a river.

I mean, look, really, like a river of water flowing down the aisle of a Qantas flight that took off from Los Angeles and was - that's a lot of water -- en route to Australia. The crew tried feverishly to stop the deluge and ultimately they just couldn't do it so the captain had to make that executive decision and turn the plane around. Big old U- turn. Pillow and blankets? Let's just hope they don't recycle those ones. Sara Sidner is live in Los Angeles for us.

I don't know if you know the answer to the question I'm going to ask you, what was the source of the water, Sara?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK. So Qantas says, look, we sprung a leak, OK.

BANFIELD: OK.

SIDNER: So, it happens.

BANFIELD: From where?

SIDNER: But if you're kind of wondering like, I've never heard of this before, you'd be right, it is very, very rare according to folks in the aviation industry. We also talked to the aviation experts about where the heck all of this water might have come from. Remember that this is a 14-hour flight. It was supposed to be flying from Los Angeles all the way to Melbourne and they carry literally hundreds of gallons of water on this flight because of the toilets, because of washing hands, using the restroom. They have to keep enough water on the flight for that. And that is likely where some of this water came from when that leak happened.

I want to let you hear from someone who was on this flight. And imagine, you're sitting there and all of a sudden water comes rushing in and you're 35,000 feet in the air.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YVETTE NICOLE BROWN, ACTRESS (voice-over): It did seem like a problem to me because its water and electricity. You know, what I kept thinking about is, we're over the Pacific and this -- I'm in something that's full of electricity and there's water. And the other thing is, it's a double decker plane, so I was wondering where the water was going because it flowed by us but I'm thinking, there are people below us. There's like a staircase behind us and, sure enough, it became like a downpour for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Yes, and you, look, and aviation experts say actually, you know, this could cause a problem if it was soaked all the way in because you've got a lot of electronics - you do have a lot of electronics on the plane.

I want to read you this statement from Qantas that they have sent out as this all happened. Everybody is safe. There were about 400 people on the flight. And here's what they said, in part, "we apologize to customers for the inconvenience. There were no safety of flight concerns with the water leak, however the captain decided to return to L.A. in the interest of passenger's comfort. We are liaising with Airbus to understand what caused this fault." So they are looking into exactly where this fault happened.

I do want to mention this. What you normally hear about when it comes to leaks on a plane is what's called blue water, which actually falls out of the plane from the bathroom and lands on things like cars, people, houses. We hear about that a lot. But this really, really rare, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes, I'm thinking if it's blue water, I don't want to know about it, but I'm glad to hear that this is just water, Sara. And, yes, what about all that luggage down below too? I wonder if that was affected. OK, Sara, good to see you. Thank you. Sara Sidner reporting for us.

I want to switch gears now to a man who arguably did his job better than any other world player in World Cup history. I'm talking about Team USA goalkeeper Tim Howard in his record breaking 16 saves during last night's match. His heroic efforts have already become the stuff of sports and Internet legends. We're going to look at each of those amazing saves, one by one, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: OK, OK, so Team USA is out of the World Cup, but there's still a lot to celebrate. The group of death did not kill us. And then there's dreamy Tim Howard, the man of the hour. Yesterday, Howard officially became the best goalkeeper in our nation's history with 16 saves. Sixteen. That's three more than the World Cup record. So in honor of that, have a look at this.

(VIDEO TAPE)

BANFIELD: That there is some awesome sauce. CNN's Chris Cuomo interviewed Howard this morning about his record breaking performance. Have a peek.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": The reason you stayed in the match was because of you, whether you like to have it on your shoulders or not. Did you feel that you were having a special game?

TIM HOWARD, GOALKEEPER, TEAM USA: You know what, I think sometimes as a goalkeeper you just feel in rhythm and that was - that was -- I felt like that for most of this season and certainly in the last couple of weeks I've felt good. The game has slowed down for me. I'm seeing things much earlier. My reactions have been very quick. And, so, yes, it felt like that. But I'm also very weary in those moments, knowing that when the big bad wolf is knocking at the door, that he could at any time enter. So I was worried that the levee would break. And so just trying to organize as much as I could, which is why my voice is gone, and make the saves that I was capable of making.

CUOMO: I was surprised how much coaching you do during the game. You were trying to organize the defense differently. So what are you going to do with this? You're man of the match. You say it's the worst award you've ever been given. But you're the man of the match. They're framing you up as Captain America. You're defined as the secretary of defense on Wikipedia. You, my man, are popular. What are you going to do with all this? How you going to handle it?

HOWARD: Take it in stride, you know. I'm going to go home and I'm going to relax and hide away, you know, hang out with the kids, get some more tattoos, you know, just (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Hang out with the kids and get some more tattoos. Oh, you had me at hello. Joining me now to talk about the significance of the World Cup and what it means for the future of soccer in America is former professional soccer player himself and editor-in-chief of mlssoccer.com Greg Lalas.

You've had so much fun.

GREG LALAS, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, MLSSOCCER.COM: Yes.

BANFIELD: I feel like it's over. It's not over. Another two weeks of World Cup.

LALAS: It's not over at all. No way.

BANFIELD: But I just want to talk about Tim Howard for a second. The secretary of defense. How awesome is he just in the scope of the sport, the history of the sport, and the scope of all the other awesome players that have been out there?

LALAS: Well, I think that the performance that he showed in this game in particular was sort of the pinnacle of everything he's done for the sport in the United States and globally. I mean this is one of the top five goalkeepers in the world right now and he showed exactly why. His ability - I mean this is a kid who grew up in New Jersey, played for the New York team in Major League Soccer, came out of that and went over and played for Manchester United and now plays for Everton in the Premier League and has just continued to get better and better and progress.

And I think, you know, when you look at the highlights of this game, the most amazing one to me is the one that he didn't save and the ball just flicks off of the cross bar and you realize that he's got some zen thing. He knew the ball wasn't going in. It's almost like he wasn't worried about it.

BANFIELD: Don't even worry about that one. Didn't want to, you know, stress out.

LALAS: No. It's - what we say - what we say in soccer is, he knows his goal. And he knew exactly what the special dimensions of it were and that it was not going to go in.

BANFIELD: Have you seen - I'm sure you have because you know all things soccer -- the things Tim Howard could save hash tag. Things Tim Howard could save on the Internet.

LALAS: Yes, pretty amazing.

BANFIELD: We've got the list. Can we show these things? I don't know if we've got the rights to them or anything, but if we've got them, they're very, very funny.

LALAS: Pretty amazing.

BANFIELD: You go online and apparently he's just been interjected into every single circumstance, from the biting incident, he saves Souris (ph) from the biting.

LALAS: The bite. There was the bite. There's a "Game of Thrones" one out there where he's trying to save Rob Stark.

BANFIELD: Well, don't give it away because some of us are still looking, you know, to watch this whole experience.

LALAS: Oh, I'm sorry. There it is. Oh, there we go. Ned Stark, not Rob Stark. There it is.

BANFIELD: That's pretty funny too. There - he's (INAUDIBLE) stop that one as well. And then I think he's saving the dinosaurs from, you know, uncertain doom, which is pretty - pretty amazing.

But, you know, it sort of speaks to the idea that he's now become this complete hero over the course of like a couple of weeks. He's like what, 34?

LALAS: Yes, he's about 34, yes, 35, 35.

BANFIELD: Thirty-four. And, you know, Cuomo, God bless him, was trying to needle him on, so you're coming back, right? You're coming back? And he said, oh, I don't know. And he said, you know, get a tattoo and talk to the kids first.

LALAS: Yes.

BANFIELD: But -

LALAS: That's what you do when you're thinking about making life changes, right?

BANFIELD: Every week.

LALAS: Get a tattoo?

BANFIELD: You do not want to know --

LALAS: Right.

BANFIELD: What is underneath this froth. But do you think he has a shot in four years to be as awesome as he's been this time around?

LALAS: Sure. You know, goalkeepers are an interesting thing. They actually get better as they get older. And they don't peak at 28, 27 when field player sort of start to peak or 30.

BANFIELD: Yes?

LALAS: They can peak into their 30s a lot. So there's a chance. At the same time, there's some very good young goalkeepers. Brad Guzan, right behind him, was the number two down in Brazil and he's ready to step up. Some great goalkeepers in MLS coming up as well. So there's a strong future here.

BANFIELD: There's just such awesome coverage in the papers today.

LALAS: Yes.

BANFIELD: I was just holding up one, it's over, and I'm here to say it ain't, it ain't over.

LALAS: No. No, this is only the start. This is only the start of everything.

BANFIELD: Greg Lalas, it's only the start. Nice to see you again. Thanks for coming in.

LALAS: Nice to see you as well. Thanks.

BANFIELD: OK, so, finally, if this guy ever gets out of jail, the one who's become known as the hot felon, now known as dreamy mcmug, apparently he's got himself a job lined up as a model. It was bound to happen, y'all. Jeremy Meeks' mug shot was posted on the Stockton Police Department's Facebook page last month and then all of a sudden, shazam, 100,000 likes and the number keeps going up. Lady fans even created a mock Calvin Klein ad. Hello.

The sub line should have been, what could have been. But in a classic case of life imitating art, media reports say that Meeks has scored a modeling contract with Blaze Models. But here's proof that, you know what, good lighting and one good photo doesn't necessarily mean that it's reality. Two different mug shots out there, Mr. Meeks. We should remind you, his bail, by the way, is up there. It is more than a million dollars. He is a dangerous fellow. Lots of felony charges facing him.

Hey, thanks everyone for watching. "WOLF" starts right now.