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Don Lemon Tonight

Kids in Hot Cars; What Is Racist?; Uproar Over 'N' Word Headline; #Peacerocks with Ringo Starr, John Varvatos

Aired July 07, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

The newspaper headline that calls President Obama the N-word. The Fourth of July parade that calls an outhouse his library. Poor taste? Definitely. But is it racism? Who decides what you can and can't say about this president, especially this president? I'm going to talk to the writer of that controversial newspaper column.

Also, that toddler killed in a hot car, his father charged with murder and police have questions for the mother, too. Unthinkable, but it seems it just keeps happening. There is a couple arrested for leaving their 15-month-old in a hot car just this weekend and a 3-year-old dead after getting trapped in his family car. What can we do to stop this?

Plus, it has been 50 years since the U.S. invasion, British invasion. But if you want to know what it was really like, who better to talk to than one of the Fab Four? The one and only Ringo Starr tells us all about it tonight.

But first I need to show you something that is causing a whole lot of controversy. Ready for it? Here it is, the newspaper headline. And it simply reads, "The Nigger in the White House."

If you have watched me over the past couple years, the past few years, you know how I feel about this. Although I think the this word is toxic and it's used gratuitously too often by far too many people of all different ethnic backgrounds, I do think it should be used if it is pertinent to a news story or the conversation, like this headline.

We can't talk about it without actually saying the word. But was it appropriate to be used in this way in a headline? Did this newspaper go too far? Well, the writer of this article, who, by the way, is white and insisted on this headline, he will join me alive to defend himself.

And then there are the two images that you see behind me. It is from a Fourth of July parade float. They show an outhouse with a sign that reads, "Obama Presidential Library." And then there is a figure on the front in overalls that most assume is President Obama. Some are outraged, saying it is racist. Others say it is just political satire.

Which is it? The man who created the controversial parade float behind me will explain himself tonight on this program as well. But we want to begin with some breaking news. I want you take a look

at these incredible pictures. The Ninja Coaster is at Six Flags' Magic Mountain. It's near Los Angeles. It has hit a tree and it has derailed. Four people are injured, as you can see, up to 30 people still trapped on that ride some 20 feet off the ground. We're going to keep an eye on this situation and bring this to you as we get more right hear on CNN tonight.

So, stay tuned.

Now I want to turn to the tragic deaths across the country of the children left alone in broiling hot cars. Here's New York -- here in New York, it is 85 degrees right now outside. And in hot spots across the United States, temperatures are rising, look at them, all across the country. Look at Dallas, 90 degrees right there, 89 degrees in Albuquerque. And it is nighttime.

More children are in danger now. We see it happening far too often.

CNN's Miguel Marquez has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's happened again, this time, El Paso, Texas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I have is a -- she's a 2-year-old female.

MARQUEZ: A 2-year-old left in the car parked at the family's home, reports the child left to suffocate overnight. An autopsy now being conducted on the little girl before possible criminal charges.

And again in Cordova, Tennessee, Matthew Brown and Brittany Zanetti arrested after leaving their 15-month-old girl in their car after they shopped at the supermarket. She is OK after a firefighter smashed a car window to free her. They face up to six years in prison. And, again, in New York, Melvin Marroquin charged with endangerment for leaving his 2-year-old daughter in his car windows rolled up, A.C. off. Police broke the window and saved her. Estimated temperature inside, 120 degrees.

Marroquin told police, he simply forgot she was there. Already this year, 15 children have died from heat stroke or suspected heat stroke. The researcher gathering this data says the number of close calls in the thousands.

(on camera): Now, cars can heat up very quickly even in cooler temperatures. It is 91 outside. Inside -- we have only been in here for about 10 or 15 minutes -- it is 108 degrees. I can tell you I'm sweating through my shirt already. I'm sweating just about everywhere. These cars can go from uncomfortable to deadly very fast.

(voice-over): All these cases in the last week, even though most of the nation is laser-focused on the sickening case of 22-month-old Cooper Harris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, are you Justin Ross Harris?

JUSTIN ROSS HARRIS, DEFENDANT: Yes, sir.

MARQUEZ: The child discovered by his father, Justin Harris, who spent the day working at Home Depot, having lunch with friends and sexting women while his son spent seven hours strapped into his car seat, scratches to his face, abrasions on the back of his head, the child apparently struggling to survive the heat.

Harris charged with murder and child cruelty after police discovered he had searched the Internet for information on how long it took pets to die in hot cars and living a life with no children. His wife, Leanna, may also be charged. During Harris' probable cause hearing, suspicious evidence about what she said to her husband shortly after their son's death.

DET. PHIL STODDARD, COBB COUNTY, GEORGIA, POLICE: She asked him -- she had him sit down and he starts going through this, and she looks at him and she's like, well, did you say too much?

MARQUEZ: The same week Cooper Harris died in Georgia, 9-month-old Anna Marie Lillie in Florida died after four hours in the back of her father Steven Lillie's truck. He told police he mental to drop her off at day care before heading to work. Here's Steven Lillie from the 911 call.

STEVEN LILLIE, FATHER: She's been in the car for hours. And I absolutely forgot about her. I'm betting she's not alive.

MARQUEZ: A shocking admission from a father at the scene of his own daughter's death. As unimaginable as leaving a child in a car seems, experts say there will be more cases as the temperatures across the country rise.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Miguel, appreciate that.

So, joining me now, legal commentator and legal analyst Mel Robbins, criminal defense attorney Janet Johnson, and Shelby County District Attorney, DA, General Amy Weirich.

So, Amy, I'm going to begin with you. As a district attorney general in Memphis, how often do you see children left in hot cars? And I want you to tell me about -- there's a new law that went into effect there just last week.

AMY WEIRICH, SHELBY COUNTY, TENNESSEE, DISTRICT ATTORNEY GENERAL: The new law is a civil law that gives people immunity from civil lawsuits if they break someone's car to rescue a child.

But far too often, we have incidents in Shelby County. Here in Memphis, it gets very hot. And far too often we have incidents where children are removed from cars, oftentimes still alive but, unfortunately, sometimes it is too late.

LEMON: What sticks out to you, if anything, about the Harris case, Amy?

WEIRICH: Well, what do you mean? Just the...

LEMON: Just what in general? If -- you see this happening a lot, right? And then there is a new civil law where you are. Is there something that stands out in this particular case as to what the father said or to the actions of either of the parents?

WEIRICH: Well, not really.

It's a tragic, horrible situation. And I think what strikes us every time these situations arise, no matter where they are in the country, is how avoidable they are, that it just takes a few extra steps.

The Harris case, I guess is a little unique if there is proof that this was premeditated and intentional. But far too often, it is just accidental. It is just someone not doing their job caring for the child that's in their care.

LEMON: Mel, let's talk about what happened Thursday. And many people may have been tuning out because -- or did not get to see it because of the holiday, but the probable cause hearing on Thursday. I want you to walk me through the details that emerged about Ross Harris' behavior on that day in question. And witnesses say his behavior seemed normal for a distraught parent.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, some of the witnesses, Don, say it was normal. And, frankly, this is a case unlike all other cases that are pending right now, where it originally looked like a mistake, Don, but then there is kind of turn after turn after turn that makes everybody that hears all of the evidence that was in the probable cause hearing say, oh, my gosh.

This is gut-wrenching and disgusting. First of all, you have the fact that while this kid is scratching himself and banging his head against his seat because he is trying to get out of the seat as he is stuck in there, the dad is sexting six women. Then you have the fact that he goes to the car and drops something off inside the car, Don.

And the car was backed into the spot. So he had to walk past the child in order to open up the door and put something in. Now, investigators say, Don, that the car had an unbelievable stench to it just four hours later.

So you know when he opened up the door, there must have been something that he smelled. Then he gets in the car after seven hours of being at work and the kid is already dead. You don't think the car smells? And then he drives for another two miles, Don, gets out.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Right. ROBBINS: There are witnesses that say his immediate response is, the

kid is choking. When the police arrive, he is saying F.U. to the police. He tells the police he can't reach anyone on the phone when he's actually made three phone calls.

It's after lie after lie after lie after lie, Don. It's terrifying.

LEMON: Janet, do you agree with that? Because police are continuing to build their case now with what Mel has just said. Do you agree with what Mel said?

ROBBINS: Right.

JANET JOHNSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, as the only defense attorney, I DO have to say, in the beginning, it always looks bad for the defense. Right?

At this point, the only burden is on the prosecution. So, on Thursday, it was horrifying. I listened as well. I have been a defense attorney for a long time. It was one of the most sickening proceedings I have seen.

But this is the burden on the state. So they have put out all their evidence and it is the worst stuff that they could up with. We haven't heard from the defense, so I don't want to rush to judgment. I do think those things were particularly bad. But I also think there was evidence that he is deaf. And there's a subpoena that went out today where they're looking into his medical records. Is that going to be a defense, that he had some kind of head injury that caused deafness and that causes memory loss?

Are these things that we will find out about? So, while what happened Thursday, it was a horrible proceeding, but there was a witness who said, my heart went out to him. This is a guy who didn't have a dog in the fight. He isn't somebody who is a defense friend. He was a stranger. And he said, I looked at him and I thought, that's the way someone would look if he was grieving. And, in fact, I felt his pain.

So I don't want to us jump on and say this could be premeditated. It couldn't be anything else. I have represented people who have accidentally hurt and even killed their children. And it was an accident. So that does happen. I don't want us to try him right now.

LEMON: Here's a question, though. Here's a question to Amy, because you heard what Janet just said. And it happens so often that you have to have a law to prevent it. Why do accidents happen like this so much?

WEIRICH: Well, who knows? If we had that answer, we could save hundreds of children every year.

Part of that, I think, is just people being careless, being rushed, being forgetful. But unfortunately as we see playing out in the courts in Atlanta, there are those intentional premeditated crimes as well. But the bottom line is it is a very simple thing to avoid. You have to make sure you get your children out of the car. You have to make sure you get elderly people that can't fend for themselves out of the car.

LEMON: And animals as well.

So, stick with me, everybody.

WEIRICH: And animals as well, yes.

LEMON: When we come right back, the child's mother. What about the child's mother? What police are learning and saying about her.

Also, open season on President Obama? A Fourth of July parade float that calls an outhouse his presidential library. A headline calls him the N-word. I'm going to ask the man had a wrote this column, what was he thinking?

And reliving the glory days of Beatlemania. The one and only Ringo Starr will be here with me.

And as always, we want to know what you're thinking. And so make sure you tweet us using #AskDon.

Also, we're keeping an eye on our breaking news story, that roller coaster derailment near Los Angeles. We will bring the very latest to you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Take a look at this little boy. There's Cooper Harris. He died after he was left inside a hot car by his father for hours. The father is now facing murder charges. Police also have a lot of questions for Cooper's mother.

I'm back now with Mel Robbins, Janet Johnson and also Amy Weirich.

Janet, to you first. The case against Ross Harris, it seems pretty damning right now. But is there any evidence that that works in his favor, do you think?

JOHNSON: Yes.

I think what we haven't found out could work in his favor. What I wonder is, did he park in his usual spot at his job or did he try to park in a place where nobody would see baby Cooper? Is he acting with consciousness of guilt? That's what we look for in court. Or did he act normal?

Most of the people who took the stand on Thursday, those were all state witnesses, they basically said he acted normal. So, again, I don't want us to look at the little bit of evidence that we have and say, well, that's all circumstantial and it all points to him.

Well, of course it does.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But aren't police say that he was not acting normal and that he used a profanity and he was on his phone with his boss the whole time, Mel?

JOHNSON: Well, those are people who didn't know him though, right?

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: Look, I think there's evidence that cuts both ways. What we still need to see, Don, is what the heck is on his cell phone and what searches was he engaged in and what lies did he tell during the day if he told any that go to his credibility?

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: Go ahead. I'm sorry.

LEMON: No, no, that's OK, because I want to you listen to -- this is Phillip Stoddard of Cobb County Police Department testifying about exactly what we're talking about. Listen and then we will continue to discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was he being emotional about? What was the main thing he was crying about or sobbing about or whatever he was doing?

STODDARD: It was all about him. "I can't believe this is happening to me. I can't believe, you know, this happened to me. Why am I being punished for this?" and continued. It was all very one-sided.

He talked about losing his job. "What are we going to do? I'm going to lose my job. I will be charged with a felony."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Amy, is there a normal way to act after something like this happens?

STODDARD: There's not. It is something that will be discussed in voir dire when you start talking about the jury about the proof that they're going to hear. No, there's no normal way to act.

But it will be for a jury, a trier of fact to make that determination, whether the state has the proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

LEMON: Let's talk about the wife, Mel. She isn't a suspect right now. She isn't a suspect and she is only part of the investigation. But there continues to be a lot of conversations surrounding her. Why do you think that is?

ROBBINS: Right.

I think it is easy in a situation like this, Don, to try to judge how you think someone should act. And so I agree with Janet that one place where we shouldn't all rush to judgment is basically saying someone is not grieving in the appropriate way. However, there are two things I found to be very troubling that I'm

sure you will agree with, Don. One is the fact that when she arrived at day care to pick up little Cooper and was told he was never dropped off, her first thing was to say, oh, Ross must have left him in the car.

And when people tried to say no, no, no, she said it again. And so there was something about that that triggers in my mind, wait a minute, she either knew he was capable of this or maybe she let -- go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: But Mel -- well, no, but, Mel, if she was in on it, wouldn't that be the last thing she would say? Wouldn't she say, gosh, I wonder what could have happened to Cooper?

Would she implicate him immediately and say, oh, I bet he left the baby in the car?

If they're that good at setting this up and that bad at then covering it up, I would -- I find that shocking. I would think that that would be the last thing she would want to say at the crime scene.

ROBBINS: My theory is more, Janet, not that she was in on it, but that she knew something was up, whether he had indicated something in the middle of the day to her, because they're going to have to look at her cell phone. They're going to look at his cell phone to see if he had communicated anything.

And maybe she knew that he was capable of something like this. They were having marital problems. He was sexting six different women in the morning. Who knows what was going on behind closed doors. But I found that to be a very, very strange thing to say if you show up at day care. You think your kid is there. You're told he was never dropped off and that's the first thing you say and then you insist.

And then the other thing I found to be bizarre is when she said at the funeral, I love you, Ross, I'm doing this for you. Wait a minute. What are you doing for him exactly? Backing him up or covering up? That's what the police need to figure out. But that's just my 2 cents.

LEMON: Janet, you want to weigh in on that?

JOHNSON: Yes. Well, I think we're parsing words in a way that we wouldn't do if it was anything other than this gruesome kind of crime.

But I do know that I have represented women who were married to abusers and child abusers who were in denial. And I think that that is probably, if it turns out that he's guilty, what is going on with her. She is standing by him initially. She loves him. She obviously put up with a lot from him. He's been cheating on her, sexting, as we all know, which I don't think is relevant in the long run.

But I do think that she probably was used to kind of making excuses for him. And this might be just one last excuse.

ROBBINS: Actually, something, Janet, that you will probably agree with is the sexting might be relevant, because let's say it is a mistake. If his whole life is in shambles and he has got six women blowing up his phone in the morning with all kinds of sex and erotic pictures, no wonder he is distracted.

JOHNSON: That's a great point.

ROBBINS: No wonder there is something else on his mind.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So, Amy, listen, final question, because you have so much experience with this. Is there -- what can we do to help? Is there any way to prevent this careless mistake from happening? I will ask you the same question again. What advice do you have here?

STODDARD: Well, something that we do here in Memphis every summer. We get together with our child advocacy center and we have a press conference.

Just -- it is so simple, just reminding the public, reminding the community, where are the kids? Are the kids out of the car? And it has to be instilled and become automatic in everyone's conversation, particularly in the summertime. But the bottom line, it is never a good idea to leave your child in the car, whether it is November or August. A car is a deadly weapon.

LEMON: Even if you think you're just going for a little bit. You're right. It's never a good idea. And the best that anyone can do now is give some advice to try to prevent it.

Thank you all. Thank you, Mel. Thank you, Janet. And thank you, Amy, as well.

ROBBINS: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Coming up, the N-word. One newspaper was brazen enough to use it in a headline and in reference to the commander in chief. The writer of that article joins me live next.

Plus, a small-town Fourth of July parade that got a whole lot of people up in arms for a float that labeled an outhouse President Obama's library. Is it racist? See for yourself and decide next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: You know this is the truth. You cannot be the president of the United States and not expect to face criticism, some of it very heated, right? But is President Obama taking heat for more than his politics? And some of the criticism, is it really about race? And does it cross the line?

Erin McPike has more now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What's red and white and black all over A New York newspaper using the most racially charged word to describe President Obama. A Fourth of July parade float in Norfolk, Nebraska shows a dummy depicted in front of an outhouse marked presidential library. So, is it open season on the president's race?

RODELL MOLLINEAU, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You know it when you see it. And if you're an African-American, if you're a minority and you felt at any point in time in your life that you have been subject to racism, there are certain things that will get your back up.

MCPIKE: Using an outhouse for the first black president's library smacks of blatant racism to many.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you lost your mind?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, ma'am, but you're about to.

MCPIKE: It brings to mind the 2011 Academy Award nominated film "The Help."

Late today, according to KMTV, the float's creator said the dummy was him and not the president and it is all political satire. It is certainly not the first Obama presidential satire or protest sparking controversy. But is it racism or political free speech or, in some cases, just bad taste?

Norfolk's mayor said in a statement -- quote -- "We recognize and respect our citizens' differing political beliefs and their rights to express them freely. However, we are disappointed that the occasion of this family-friendly celebration of America's birth was used in a way that disparaged the office of the president."

(on camera): Some supporters of President Bush would say that the way he was caricatured also was disrespectful of the office.

MOLLINEAU: I think it is a false equivalency.

Listen, and let me be very clear. The idea of opposing a president or poking fun at a president, that's nothing new. It is when you cross that lane. President Bush, yes, during his lowest points certainly did take a lot of criticisms from the left and from Democrats, but nothing that you would consider racist, nothing that you would consider out of bounds or over the top.

MCPIKE (voice-over): Like Bush, Obama's poll numbers have taken a nosedive. But do attacks like these distract from legitimate criticism of his performance in office?

The writer of this point says his point was to criticize opponents who bring race into the discussion. Clearly, that backfired.

Erin McPike, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right, Erin, thank you very much.

Joining me now, the man at the center of this uproar over this particular headline, controversial headline, is James Lincoln Collier. He wrote the article for "The WestView News." And he joins me now by telephone.

So, this is a headline really that caused so much uproar. It says "The Nigger in the White House."

Why exactly did you insist on using this term in this way?

JAMES LINCOLN COLLIER, "THE WESTVIEW NEWS": Well, that was the whole point of this, is that a great many people in the United States continue to think of President Obama as the nigger. And I wanted to make that point that there is a substantial amount of racism still existing in the United States, and that is how I expressed it in order to get that point across as strongly as I could.

LEMON: So here -- here's the issue that I think that that I had with the piece. Seeing it in print actually did not bother me. Because I think it is pertinent to the news story. If -- if there is a legitimate, you know, reason for using it.

But you did not reference the word in the article. And you did not explain in the article why you used it. So it looks like it is just an attention-grabbing headline. And you know these days, people don't read beyond the headlines very much.

COLLIER: Well, I can't help that. In other words, there's nothing I can do about the fact that people don't read the whole article. The whole article, obviously, is very supportive of Obama. And it is very -- directed at the people who are against Obama because of his race. And that was the point of it.

LEMON: I understand that. But still, as I said, you didn't reference the use of the headline anywhere. And listen, I've been a victim of that. I've had people who write headlines for things that I -- that I wrote, and it has nothing to do with what I actually wrote. I understand that. But you insisted on this headline. Yet, you didn't really reference why you insisted on it.

COLLIER: I didn't insist on it, particularly. That's the headline -- that's the title I put on the piece. I submitted it to the publisher, and that's the way he ran it. And I thought it was an appropriate title to put on the piece, because that, after all, was the nature of the story, that a great many people in America have a lot of trouble with the fact that we have a black president. And my point was to try and get that across. And I used that term in order to make that understood. That that's the way a great many Americans think of President Obama.

LEMON: And you're right. When you look at the headline, you may not think that the article was very pro-President Obama, and it is. And here's what you write. You said, "It is possible to draw only one conclusion: far right voters hate Obama because he is black. A large minority have, for some six years -- have been quietly angry that they must have in the White House a member of an inferior class of people. Until recently, however, they have felt constrained to keep their mouths shut. But America's increasing tolerance of far-right opinions has made racism more acceptable, so long as it can be distinguished, however thinly, as politics." Disguised, excuse me, as politics. I didn't bring my glasses so I'm having a little bit of trouble here.

I think that you make a very legitimate point here. Explain yourself.

COLLIER: Well, I think that -- what I said is what I said. I was explaining that there are a great many people who will pretend that they're talking about a political matter, but in fact, behind it they're driven by racism.

Racism exists in the United States, and there's no getting around it. You just have to listen to people talk when they think they're not being overheard. That is certainly part of the American culture, and it has been for a long time.

LEMON: Are there any exceptions to this? So I mean, would you agree that there are plenty of people on the right or far right who really just hate the president's policies, and they didn't really care what color his skin is?

COLLIER: Well, of course. I mean, there are certainly -- there are all kinds of reasons for people voting the way they do, the way -- reasons for feeling the way they do about the president or any president. A lot of them are, of course, driven simply by politics.

But you have a substantial number of people, and it would be impossible to put percentages to it, who are very driven by their own racist attitudes. And that would not be just true of the south. You'll find plenty of that in the north, as well.

LEMON: I'm going to speak with Charles Blow of "The New York Times." And, you know, you reference that, at least your editors do, about "The New York Times" not using the word. But I'm going to speak to Charles Blow momentarily. He says, by using this headline, you have lost your larger argument. And I think -- I believe he thinks that you've lost the moral high ground, as well. Is he wrong or right about that?

COLLIER: Well, I don't think so. I wouldn't have done that if I thought that that were the case. But I don't think it's the case. I think the point was to get it across that this is still an attitude in the United States.

And clearly, from the response that I've had, I expected there would be some response. I expected there would be some stuff (ph). But not to the extent that there has been. And that makes it very clear to me that this is still a very emotional issue for the American people. People on both sides of the fence, obviously, but it's still a very emotional issue.

I don't get called up to be interviewed by CNN for -- very often, I assure you.

LEMON: Yes.

COLLIER: But this is why you're -- uninterested in me. Because this issue is still a very emotional one for American people.

LEMON: Would you do it all over again, including using that word, if you knew then what you know now?

COLLIER: I wouldn't -- I wouldn't change it at all. Because if I had thought I shouldn't have done it in the first place, I wouldn't have done it. If I would do it again, I would do it exactly as I've done it.

LEMON: James Lincoln Collier. Thank you for joining us.

COLLIER: Thank you very much.

LEMON: When we come right back, I want our political team to weigh in on this. Is the president facing racism or politics as usual?

Also, Ringo Starr's birthday. And I'm going to talk to him about the Beatles and what it was lake to be part of the British Invasion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back now. President Obama's critics racists, or is this all politics as usual? Joining me now is Kellyanne Conway, Republican strategist; Charles Blow, CNN political commentator and op-ed columnist for "The New York Times"; David Gergen, senior political analyst and adviser for presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton. Those are some pretty big resumes here.

Charles, you just heard from the man, James Collier, who wrote that controversial headline. And the words, "The Nigger in the White House." He was saying he's trying to make an important point that was larger about the opposition to the president being largely based on race. Did he have a valid point, in your opinion?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, I think you have to separate those two things. Right? Which is on the one hand, you can see that he's trying to be provocative and draw people into reading the piece. I write a column in "The New York Times." Part of the job is to be provocative.

I think, however, when you use racial slurs in any -- in your provocation, you've automatically lost the argument, because no one's going to listen to the argument. Nobody's going to get past the slur, so I think you've already lost. So whatever good you thought you were doing, you lost it.

The second point, I think you have to also detangle, which is is there racism in America? Of course there is. Science -- social scientists have for decades designed very sophisticated experiments to make sure they can measure both implicit and explicit racism across all sorts of measures: medical, the legal system, educational system, what have you. We know that exists. That doesn't shock anyone that that exists.

LEMON: But his larger point, Charles, was whether or not the opposition and the criticism to him is largely based on race. We know there's racism.

BLOW: Right. But even he admitted in your interview with him that there's no way that you could put a percentage on it. There is no -- you can't jump from the fact that racism exists in America to being able to identify how much of the resistance to Obama is racist.

Maybe social scientists will in the end divine -- design sophisticated experiments to be able to measure, to some degree, if that is true. Right now we don't know that.

So if you're trying to jump from, you know, this kind of cause and effect to say, because there is racism in America, and because there is a strenuous objection to Obama, that the two must have a causal relationship, then I think you already overreach.

LEMON: OK. Kellyanne.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: I really appreciate Charles Blow saying that.

I was just astonished to hear your interview. He said two thing that really caught my attention. One is that he doesn't get called by CNN very often. Quote, "That's for sure." So he definitely got his 15 minutes of fame today.

The second is, he talked about the substantial number of Americans who are against the president because of his race. And this is a man whose circulation of 20,000 -- I don't know if the viewers are aware, but the West Village in Chelsea in Greenwich Village, a lovely place but a very wealthy, very white enclave of this island. And I just found it remarkable that this man is painting with such a broad brush that people -- a substantial number of Americans are against him, he says, because of his race.

Look, Charles is -- Charles Blow is right. Of course there's racism in this country, and we have a terrible history of that in this nation. However, I think it would behoove the Democrats to admit it, that if you are -- if you are against the president's policies right now, you're probably not a racial bigot. You're a Senate Democrat. You've got Mark Begich in Alaska saying, "I don't want him campaigning with me. I want him to change some of his policies."

BLOW: You're making the same jump. Now you're making the same jump.

CONWAY: No, I'm showing the illogic. That's right, I'm showing the illogic.

BLOW: You can't -- you can't (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at one point and then make the same jump that the author of the piece is making, that you can exclude the racism. You can't exclude it. You can't include in. There's no way to measure at this point how much or to what degree or whether or not it is the main factor or maybe it is a subordinate factor, whether it is a conscious factor or whether it is a subconscious factor. None of us know the answer to that.

LEMON: David, get in here.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, in the first place I think Mr. Collier, his mistake was dumb, but I don't think he's a racist. He was waving the flag, trying to get attention, as Charles suggests.

On the question of whether the opposition to Obama is driven by racism, I just think that's a false charge in this sense. I think the opinion polls about Obama's performance in office are driven by performance itself.

Early in the presidency, he was well over 60 percent. Now he's down in the low 40s. Some poll have him in the high 30s. You know, he hasn't changed the color of his skin during that time. It's his performance that has driven a lot of people, including some Democrats.

I do think that the vitriol directed at the president comes from, in part, from racism. There is no question that a country that was once riddled with racism still suffers from it. It's not as widespread as it was. But I do think that the tone of the conversation, the way he's treated, that outhouse, to me, was not only dumb but racist. And there was just no -- you wonder, the people who were the patrons and were the gatekeeper for that parade ought to be ashamed of themselves to allow that out there, because it sends so many signals of racism. And if that's picked up by the rest of the country as being acceptable, that has real damaging effects.

LEMON: Because David, I want to -- hang on. I want you to hear what the creator of this parade float had to say earlier, and then -- It was in Nebraska, by the way. Let's listen. We'll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DALE REMMICH, FLOAT MAKER: It's me. I've got on my bibs; I've got my walker. I'm turning green, and some say I look like a zombie. But I am not a hatemonger. And I do -- I'm not a racist.

I tried to be -- use political satire as best I could. To be honest it is mostly political disgust. Simply no more or no less.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So he is saying the dummy is not the president but actually himself. What do you make of that, Charles?

BLOW: Well, I mean, like the old saying -- one second, David. Like the old saying goes, who knows what secrets lurk in the hearts of men? I can't know what's inside -- what this man's motivation is. But what I -- what I do say...

GERGEN: I agree with that. But...

BLOW: I'm sorry.

GERGEN: The expression can be interpreted without having to go into his inner soul.

BLOW: That's what I'm saying. That's what I was about to say. Which is this. Which is that motivation can move separately from perception. Right?

So if you can't have enough empathy to understand that your joke or your off-color statement could be perceived by someone else as being offensive, and have the kind of honor enough to apologize for that. To say, you know, I thought this was just a political expression. But I can see through historical context that this could be perceived as offensive by some people, and I apologize for that. That's the honorable thing to do.

LEMON: So Kelly, I literally have ten seconds left.

GERGEN: I agree with that. I agree with that. I do think that all of us have to be sensitive to the fact that we live in a very diverse country. And how we see something may not be the same way that people who are, who have been the victim of discrimination, as African- Americans have been...

CONWAY: That's an important point.

GERGEN: ... in horrible ways that we've heard. You have to begin to sort of have a conversation which -- which shows respect for their -- for their perspective.

LEMON: OK, Kelly, I've got to give you the last few seconds here. I'm going to get cut off.

CONWAY: That's a very important point.

GERGEN: Where were the people who put on the parade?

LEMON: All right, Kelly.

CONWAY: That's a very important point about our diversity and perception. But let me just say that I hope everybody...

LEMON: Got to go fast, Kelly.

CONWAY: ... agrees, the "N" word is an ugly word. It just doesn't deserve to be in the lexicon. And the objection of hearing it so much tonight is that we allowed to it live another day. There's no justification to have that whatsoever.

But let's get it off our basketball courts, out of our locker rooms, out of our rap music and certainly out of any -- any...

LEMON: I've to go.

CONWAY: ... any intimation of the president of the United States.

LEMON: Thank you, all of you. Kellyanne Conway, Charles Blow and also David Gergen.

Ringo Starr when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: This is a big year for millions of Beatles fans around the world. Fifty years ago the Fab Four topped the charts in America, made their live TV debut on "The Ed Sullivan Show," and released their first film. It's called "A Hard Day's Night."

Who better to talk about what it's like to live through Beatlemania than a Beatle himself, the one and only Ringo Starr? Still rocking after all these years and teaming up with designer John Varvatos in the name of peace and love.

Here's a portion of the ad campaign that just launched today with Ringo and some celebrity friends on the drums.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RINGO STARR, MUSICIAN: It was lucky in those days that, if you had an instrument, you were in the band.

It's just -- I love the sound of them, the depth of them, what they give me. You know? It's just my instrument. You know what I mean? It's just that's what I want to play.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Ringo Starr and John Varvatos join me now.

First off, happy birthday, Ringo. I understand you turned -- what was it, 25? -- and every year you celebrate with peace and love.

STARR: Yes, 24 today, brother, 24.

LEMON: So you're at the famous, the iconic Capitol Records building which you know a lot about. You're sitting next to fashion icon John Varvatos.

STARR: Yes.

LEMON: Tell me about this collaboration. It's called Peacerocks Initiative.

STARR: Well, it started -- John invited me to be a male model and -- this year, which I am, and actually on his chest, he has me in the outfit. And from that, things just, you know, the opposite of out of hand; into good hands. And he decided to come along on the peace and love trail and was very supportive. And actually came up with this idea of Peacerocks, which I'll let him tell you about.

JOHN VARVATOS, FASHION DESIGNER: Yes. Peacerocks is something that we're working together with Ringo on, with his Peace and Love Foundation that he worked with David Lynch on. And we are, you know, trying to get people to flash the peace sign, snap a picture, post it at #peacerocks. And for every post we're going to give a dollar to this wonderful fund that gets people's minds in the right place about earthly peace and love. Something that Ringo has been the, you know, the No. 1, I guess it's -- you own it really.

STARR: I don't own it. But I am still trying to spread peace and love.

VARVATOS: He's been spreading it for a lot of years.

STARR: It's been a dream. You know, people say, well, you keep doing it. And I say, yes, because one day -- in my mind, one day, one hour, one minute, everybody at noon will go, "peace and love." All over the world. A billion people, or however many there is.

LEMON: We hope that happens. So Ringo...

STARR: If you say peace and love for just a minute, you do this and say "Peace and love," you're not thinking of anything else. So you're actually thinking of love thoughts.

LEMON: Yes. Can we talk about the Beatles?

STARR: Yes.

LEMON: Because 50 years ago this year the Beatles arrived, and the term British Invasion was coined. What was -- what was that time like for you?

STARR: It was one of the most memorable moments and exciting moments of my life. Because you know, all the music we loved came from America. And, you know, we were English; we were from Liverpool. And the idea of getting to America was like always a dream.

And we happened to arrive in America. And we had, you know, a No. 1 record, and we were loved. And so it was just an incredible part of my life.

VARVATOS: How about this weekend? "Hard Day's Night" back in the theaters after all these years. Pretty crazy.

STARR: Yes. I mean, the Beatles go on. That's what's incredible about the Beatles. The records, every generation buys the records. I'm really proud of that. You know, they don't see the mop tops; they don't see the dress code.

LEMON: It's about the music.

STARR: They just listen and hear the music. And the music still is relevant today and still stands up. And, you know, when you think that a lot of it was made on four-track, and now they've got, like, 200 tracks. We were a great band, and it shows. I mean, we loved what we did. That's -- that's what you hear coming through. And the talent to perform it. And of course, with John and Paul writing it.

LEMON: But you have to admit, though, that the fashion did have an influence. Because when you look at the matching suits, you had the stove pipe trousers. Now they call them skinny jeans, or whatever, skinny pants. Or the Cuban heeled boots. It made a big impact, almost as big an impact as the music. STARR: Beatle haircut, Beatle jackets, Beatle, Beatle, Beatle. Yes.

But now, you know, we don't have that. And we were talking about being relevant now. And so they just are into the music. At the time, in the '60s, of course it was relevant, you know.

LEMON: John, how important do you think fashion played into the Beatles' success?

VARVATOS: You know, it's part of -- it was part of the aura, you know. I mean, in the end what really lives on is the music. I mean, that's really what transcends every generation. The fashion, when you look today, isn't so transcending. But the music did.

But at the time, the whole buying in of every person around the world, it was about everything from their personalities to the song writing to their stage presence; and it was just one more shot of adrenaline. The fashion that just kind of took them to another level.

LEMON: OK. So I want to tell everybody, if they want to learn about this, make sure they go to JohnVarvatos.com or DavidLynchFoundation.org. Plus, also you can watch the CNN series, "The Sixties." It's Thursday at 9 p.m., where the Beatles will be featured.

And before I go, so that we can get everybody doing this, I'm going to go on social media, and I'm going to post a selfie of us. So if you can hold up, I'm going to put you guys behind this. Give me the peace sign, and I'll get a big selfie of us. Peace.

VARVATOS: Hashtag Peacerocks.

STARR: Hashtag Peacerocks. Send your photo.

VARVATOS: A dollar for every post goes to the fund.

LEMON: Peace, guys. Thank you.

STARR: You're helping yourselves and a lot of other people.

LEMON: Thank you.

Thanks. Peace and love. And check out Ringo's fashion through the years. Make sure you check out our twitter page or go to CNN.com/entertainment. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Time now for "CNN TONIGHT Tomorrow," the stories that you're going to be talking about tomorrow in Washington state. Smoke 'em if you've got them. Starting tomorrow, it's legal to sell pot for recreational use.

And those crazy people in Pamplona, Spain, are off and running. Yes, it is the annual running of the bulls. At least four people have been injured so far. And we have an update for you on that derailed roller coaster at Six

Flags Magic Mountain near L.A. Twenty-two people who have been stuck on the coaster are alert and communicating with park personnel during the evacuation.

Thanks for watching. That's it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon. See you back here tomorrow night. Same time, same place. "AC 360" starts right now.