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Don Lemon Tonight

America and 'The View'; Crisis at the Border; What's Causing Immigration Crisis?; From Mercedes to Food Stamps: One Woman's Story

Aired July 09, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Divided we stand. It seems everything is political these days, and America is more divided than ever.

Left vs. right, black vs. white, gay vs. straight. Whose side are you on? Well, you will see it on the border. That's where you are seeing it, where 52,000 undocumented children have crossed illegally, and nobody seems to know what to do about them. Listen to a frustrated President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If I sponsored a bill declaring apple pie American, it might fall victim to partisan politics.

As I indicated to Governor Perry, he suggested, well, maybe you just need to go ahead and act, and that might convince Republicans that they should go ahead and pass the supplemental.

And I had to remind him, I'm getting sued right now by Mr. Boehner apparently for going ahead and acting, instead of going through Congress. Well, here is a good test case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, you know where else you see that same divide? Out of all places, on daytime TV, where battle lines are being drawn over at "The View." Will Rosie O'Donnell return? Liberal. Will Sarah Palin get a seat at the table? Conservative. And will the whole thing turn into a scream fest? We will talk exclusively with the woman who knows "The View" better than just about anyone. Guess who it is?

Plus, the mom who drove her Mercedes to pick up her food stamps. But this story doesn't go exactly the way you might think. She is going to be here to explain to us.

And, as always, we want to know what you think about all this. Make sure you tweet us using #AskDon.

We're going get to the debate on the border over the children, but, first, the great divide in America and on "The View."

Nischelle Turner has that for you. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Daytime TV's happy hour always starts right now on "The View."

NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): But things don't seem too happy behind the scenes at "The View" these days. Barbara Walters officially retires from the show in May. Then two more hosts say they're leaving, new hire Jenny McCarthy.

JENNY MCCARTHY, "THE VIEW": I have taken a new job.

TURNER: And seven-season veteran panelist Sherri Shepherd.

SHERRI SHEPHERD, "THE VIEW": It is true I'm leaving "The View" after the season.

TURNER: Maybe the biggest change is how the show is evolving. "The View" more than ever seems to reflect the bitter political divide in this country. Like a lot of American television in politics, the voices got louder, the opinions harsher, and the debate more in your face, like Elisabeth Hasselbeck and Rosie O'Donnell's frequent feuds.

ELISABETH HASSELBECK, "THE VIEW": You will not call me a tart, because, number one, I sit here every single day.

TURNER: Now reports the show may hire cultural and political lightning rod Rosie O'Donnell again.

ALI NEJAD, HLN CORRESPONDENT: I think it's clearly a matter of wanting to see a difference of opinion. If you have a panel in any television show that all agrees with one another, that homogeny doesn't make for great television.

TURNER: Conservative commentator Elisabeth Hasselbeck went from "The View" to FOX last year. She isn't thrilled with the idea of Rosie returning.

ELISABETH HASSELBECK, FOX NEWS: Here in comes to "The View" the very woman who spit in the face of our military, spit in the face of her own network and really in the face of a person who stood by her and had civilized debates for the time that she was there.

TURNER: But Hasselbeck may be more supportive of another possible contender, fellow Republican Sarah Palin.

NEJAD: The ones that really jumped out as potentials were Rosie, obviously, because she has done it before, and then Sarah Palin. I mean, there is somebody who certainly has a very strong audience who she could carry with her. I love the idea of Wanda Sykes coming on. I also like Kathy Griffin. And then Ross Mathews, I love him.

TURNER: But for now, even Barbara admits she doesn't have the right answer.

BARBARA WALTERS, FORMER CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": I don't know. I'm not sure.

QUESTION: No?

WALTERS: No. I know "The View" will continue. I don't think we have a new direction yet. I think we have a little time to find it.

TURNER: Nischelle Turner, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right.

So whatever happens at "The View," it is now TV history. And nothing says you have made it like seeing yourself on "Saturday Night Live." I want you to take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Scaffolding under my clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: No stop it. Stop it. You look great.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You know what I always say? You know what I say? Who cares.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Joining me now, a woman who had a seat at the table of "The View" for 16 years. It's Joy Behar. She joins me here exclusively.

Let me tell your story, first, Joy, because you were one of the original panelists on "The View" when it premiered August 11, 1997; 16 years, you announced that you would be retiring the show.

JOY BEHAR, FORMER CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": I did not retire.

LEMON: OK, well, from the show.

BEHAR: From the show, yes.

LEMON: OK. But I can ask you something? You know this is CNN. We have to talk about news. You heard what the president said about the border crisis at the beginning of the show.

BEHAR: Yes.

LEMON: He said if I was to put a bill there to say apple pie is American, there would be some opposition to it.

BEHAR: Yes.

LEMON: What do you make of that? BEHAR: What do I make of it?

LEMON: It's kind of -- that is what is playing out in the country.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Well, you know, you have to look at this, his whole time at the White House and wonder, why he is constantly being obstructed? Why?

Even after Bill Clinton was impeached, they still went along with his scenario. When George Bush invaded Iraq under false pretenses, no one -- they didn't know it, probably -- but the Democrats went along with that. Why can't they give this guy a break? What is that about, do you think? Hmm?

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I will let you answer that.

Let's get right to it, the headlines. Rosie is coming back. And the whole reason we're doing this is because "The View" is a microcosm of what is happening in society now.

BEHAR: It is?

LEMON: Yes, because you have got -- you know. When Rosie and Elisabeth...

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: That picture of Whoopi with these missing -- it's like a Nancy Grace segment. Where are they? Let's put out an Amber Alert for these girls.

LEMON: One of those was you. But who is it going to be now?

What do you make of that, Rosie coming back? You remember the split- screen with Elisabeth and them going...

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Oh, I was in the middle of that. What do I make of her coming back?

LEMON: Yes.

BEHAR: Well, they thrive on ratings. She will probably bring ratings. She is very edgy. A certain amount of danger to Rosie. And I think that they're looking to really soup up the show that way.

LEMON: So you were in the middle of that?

BEHAR: Yes.

LEMON: OK. Elisabeth called into FOX earlier today, where she works, and she wasn't really thrilled about the news. And she was calling in on her vacation I think when she heard. Let's listen to this and then we will talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HASSELBECK: Here in comes to "The View" the very woman who spit in the face of our military, spit in the face of her own network and really in the face of a person who stood by her and had civilized debates for the time that she was there, coming back with a bunch of control ready to regain a seat at "The View" table.

Not surprising. I think this has been in the works for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You sat beside her for years. What do you think about it?

BEHAR: I thought that was really kind of below the belt to say that she spits in the face of the military.

I would like Elisabeth to explain herself, really. What does she mean by that? And isn't it kind of a nasty thing to say about somebody who basically is a good person? Say what you want about Rosie O'Donnell, she is a very generous person. She has a million kids. She is always rescuing someone. She has more kids than Mrs. Duggar at this point on her roster. You know what I mean?

The woman is -- her son is at the Citadel. What more does Elisabeth want?

LEMON: Yes, but they had beef, obviously.

BEHAR: I know, but to say she spits in the face of the military? That's a dangerous thing to say about somebody.

First of all, it's not prove. I would like her to prove it. Goes on FOX. Everything is fiction on FOX anyway. What am I talking about?

LEMON: But you want her to explain that. Why?

BEHAR: I want her to explain it because I think it's a hate-filled remark. And she should explain it.

LEMON: When conversations like that happen on "The View," right, when Elisabeth would say things like that to Rosie, wasn't it the best ratings they had? Do you think they're trying to go back to that?

BEHAR: Here is the thing, Don. When I took on the job in the beginning, we were me, Star Jones, Meredith Vieira, and Barbara, and, Debbie Matenopoulos who lasted a little long -- a short time. She aged out after a year. Whatever.

But we kind of got along. There was chemistry. The way we got the show is we were put in a room and to see what would jell, and it jelled. And we kind of liked each other. And we bantered around. Now they seem to like people to fight with each other and not like each other, because that might happen again. If they want to put conservatives and liberals again against each other, I don't know.

LEMON: It's interesting, though, because "The View" you have to give to it Barbara Walters. "The View" was an original idea with all women. It was a panel show that went gangbusters for a very long time. But now every show on television is "The View" or has an element.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Even this show, right, right? But like "The Talk" is now doing almost as well "The View" and catching up.

BEHAR: Yes, but "The Talk" is not like "The View."

LEMON: It was like "The View" was originally.

BEHAR: No, no, no. No, no, no. The talk is more planned, I believe. "The View" is totally spontaneous. Nobody knows what we're going say when we get out there. Nobody tells us what's to say. That's the beauty of "The View," because it's a spontaneous show. These other shows are more structured.

LEMON: But do you think "The View" has -- do you think should it go back to that sort of fighting or should it be above the fray and has it run its course?

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: No. I think people like to see women getting along with each other. When they start to fight with each other too much, I think it becomes a little uncomfortable.

LEMON: Did you think it was going to be so political when you joined "The View"?

BEHAR: No. It wasn't about that in the beginning. It was about camaraderie. We talked about women's issues. We did some serious subjects and others.

But then when Obama was running against McCain, it became very political and very acrimonious, because that was when -- you know, he brings in Sarah Palin, you're going have fights.

LEMON: Yes. But let's show -- can we show the fight between Rosie and Elisabeth.

BEHAR: Oh, again?

LEMON: Yes, let's show it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Is there no commercial in this show?

(LAUGHTER)

HASSELBECK: I will tell you what is cowardly. No.

(CROSSTALK)

HASSELBECK: No, asking a rhetorical question that you never answer yourself. That is cowardly.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Who is directing this show?

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Let's go to commercial. Let's go to commercial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You were -- that was a long time.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: I'm a natural moderator.

LEMON: They did sit on that, though, right? Was that purposefully?

BEHAR: You mean the director?

LEMON: Yes.

BEHAR: I don't know what was in his mind. They did a split-screen, which I think Rosie was not happy about. But they did a split-screen.

So, yes, I think they were enjoying it.

LEMON: What do you think Barbara thinks of all this?

BEHAR: Listen, Barbara is still the E.P. of the show. I think she would like to succeed. It's her legacy.

But the way she started it, it's not the same show. It's just a different show. The show changed when Meredith and Star left. It became a different show, because when they were there, it was like, you know, four of us started on the same level in a way. Barbara was of course very famous. Then they bring in a big heavy hitter like Rosie and the dynamic changes when you do that.

And now Whoopi came in and the dynamic changed a while.

LEMON: I have to say that, after Meredith, the dynamic left. And after Star left, the dynamic -- and then after you left.

And it's not the same show. Sometimes, when you tinker with things -- listen, I love "The View." I watched from the very first day. Got tickets, whatever. I have been on the show a couple times. One time, I didn't show up because I was stuck on tarmac, right? (CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: ... anything.

LEMON: I think the dynamic changed after you left. And it's not the same show.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: They're going to bring it back to a similar political upheaval maybe. Who knows.

LEMON: I have to ask you about your tour, Las Vegas, August 22 and 23. It's called the Lipshtick Tour. It's in Westbury, New York, on September 19.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: The Lipshtick Tour is -- a lot of other women are doing it also. So, it's not just me.

But I'm also going to be at Westbury Music Fair in September. People should come see me there.

LEMON: So, dish.

BEHAR: What do you want to know?

LEMON: What is going to happen between Rosie and Whoopi, two powerhouse...

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: They're going to make -- "Mob Wives" is going to look like nothing compared to that show. Are you kidding me?

No, they will have fun. They will have fun. They're both comedians. They will play together nicely. And if they don't, that's what we will watch on television.

LEMON: All right, you're not going anywhere. And, by the way, this is your old studio.

BEHAR: Oh, I lost my show on HLN. I will never get over that.

I saw all my crew here today and I'm mad that I left that show. I want that show back.

Are you listening, Jeff Zucker? Are you listening, Ken Jautz?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Do you really want to do this?

BEHAR: I want my show back.

LEMON: Do you really want to do this?

BEHAR: I can't -- you're not dealing with a comedian correctly. I'm leaving.

LEMON: Do you really want to do this?

BEHAR: No. I want Fredricka Whitfield to interview me.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Where is she?

LEMON: Please don't walk off.

When we come right back, I want to bring in some very opinionated people to talk about the great divide on "The View" and in America.

And also thousands and thousands of children on our borders, they're risking everything to get into this country. What should we do about them?

And a story that will surprise you. The woman who drove her Mercedes- Benz to pick up food stamps.

And as always, we want to know what you think about this. Tweet us using #AskDon.

BEHAR: She did?

LEMON: Yes, she did.

BEHAR: Doesn't look good.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I'm back now with a woman who knows all the secrets of "The View." It's Joy Behar. I'm exhausted sitting here.

BEHAR: I'm a woman with nothing to lose, so watch out.

LEMON: I know. You're wearing me out, but I'm ready.

Also, CNN commentator L.Z. Granderson, Jim Moret, West Coast correspondent for "Inside Edition," and Republican strategist Kellyanne Conway.

The rumors over there is that she has got -- Rosie -- I was going to say Whoopi -- Rosie is going to have a whole lot of power, because she will have control, reportedly.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Yes. That's probably -- she probably had a whole list of things for her to come back and say, I will come back if this, this, this and this.

LEMON: What about her at Barbara's show, the last show, where Barbara Walters left, saying she was sort of walking around like she...

BEHAR: Like she owned the show?

LEMON: Yes.

BEHAR: She always acts like that. She probably walks around her bathroom like that. That's Rosie

LEMON: It's Rosie, right? It's Rosie.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I hear you guys laughing.

Kellyanne, does it have to be two conservative, two liberals? Will the panel reflects American politics. Does it at the moment?

KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: No, I'm not sure that "The View" needs to be as political as it is at all, because if you're actually reflecting what American women tell pollsters they care most about, politics is way down on the list.

And I like -- I love the show. I love the commentary. I love the back and forth. But everybody on the show is not -- is kind of unique, not very common in terms of what it is we think about and what it is that we -- the kind of industries that we work in.

And so, you know, when women tell people what really concerns them, what they want to hear information about, gather some education on, it's issues like health care and education. It's not necessarily who said what in what political party.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Would you like to be on, Kelly? Would you like to talk?

CONWAY: Sure, absolutely.

BEHAR: They're looking for a blond, I'm sure.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: No, no, no, I think they're really not looking for a real conservative. I have seen the list, and I think they're looking for sort of a passing Republican, not a true conservative.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But they are -- there are reports out now that Sarah Palin may be throwing her hat in the ring.

BEHAR: Oh, God.

CONWAY: She is publicly campaigning for it. But as a serious matter, you don't want a show that is really "The View" only. You want a show that expresses the views. LEMON: Does it need attention, though, in order for it to draw the

numbers, Jim Moret?

CONWAY: Well, that's -- I'm sorry. That's the irony to me, because women are all about negotiation and compromise. That's the irony.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Jim?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": I think it needs to be exciting to watch. I think Rosie -- Joy hit it right on the mark. People watched Rosie because they wanted to know, what is she going to say tomorrow?

Frankly, Joy, I miss you on the show.

BEHAR: Thank you, Jim.

MORET: I really do.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: I think that you have got in Whoopi a very strong, opinionated woman. I think, in Rosie, a strong opinionated woman. Sometimes they're going to clash.

But, you know, Joy talked about something that has been lacking lately, and that's this mutual respect. I'm hoping they can get back to that. You can banter, but still like each other.

BEHAR: Yes.

MORET: And you can still have fun. And I don't think that we need to watch a battle every day.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: L.Z. -- by the way, I do miss you on the show as well.

But go ahead, L.Z., before I ask your question.

BEHAR: You didn't have to say that.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You know I don't lie. I call it -- I say it like...

(CROSSTALK)

L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We all miss you, Joy. We all miss you on the show.

CONWAY: Absolutely.

GRANDERSON: I think the purpose really has to be defined as they remake who is going to be on the panel. And what I mean by that is, is the purpose now to strictly entertain?

Is the purpose now to inform, is the purpose now to reflect the audience or is the purpose now to reflect America? Those are four different purposes in my opinion.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANDERSON: ... can't just a show.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: A lot of the research showed that women did get their news from us.

LEMON: Right.

BEHAR: They watched the show and they got a sense of what was happening in the world from us.

LEMON: Well, that was my question to you, because women are -- they're huge deciding voting bloc when it comes to elections, especially the presidential election.

And now should it reflect, should there be a liberal, should there be a conservative, should there be a gay person, should there be a man on "The View"?

BEHAR: No.

LEMON: All of those things.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: Yes, I'm a man. I will do it. I will do it.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: First of all, we listen to men all day and all night on every other channel.

We see them constantly on every place. So the women want to hear women talking. We're interested in each other's conversations.

CONWAY: But, Joy, you said that's where women got their news. And I know you're right statistically speaking.

But, in fairness, a lot of that, as is a lot of punditry today, not news, it's opinion. And it becomes very difficult for the average consumer to distinguish between the two, especially if they turn on the TV five days a week and see comfortable, familiar faces who do make them laugh, who do tell them something they didn't know.

BEHAR: Yes.

CONWAY: And I think that's really -- it's a little bit dangerous. Frankly, when I come on, it's a Republican pollster, somebody else,

Democratic strategist. But we don't always know every axe that everybody is grinding out there when it's under the guise of entertainment. I think there should be a distinction between true hard news and opinion.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's not "The View"'s role.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: The show never represented itself as a news show, never.

LEMON: L.Z., let's talk a little bit more, because there are rumors about adding a man and what have you.

Listen, I'm a man. It would be great. I think many people would like to have that job. But I'm not so sure actually that a man should be there. It's great to go in and hang out with the girls every once in a while.

BEHAR: It's a different show with men, which I would love, too.

LEMON: Do you think it's different though if it's a gay man? Does that matter?

BEHAR: No.

LEMON: No.

All right, L.Z.

GRANDERSON: I think, first of all, it goes back to what I said before. What would be the new purpose of the new cast?

We know that when "The View" started, the number of men who were stay- at-home dads who worked from home was much lower than what it is today. Are you trying to perhaps appeal to that group of people who may tune in and watch the show?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Let's just be honest. L.Z., I'm sure you watch it. I watch it. Jim Moret watches the show as well. Would it make you want to watch it more if a man is on? I'm not so sure.

BEHAR: Well, you're not in the demographics, I don't think. I think they're only interested in women.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANDERSON: It's about the chemistry.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: So, they really don't care what you think, truthfully. No, I'm sorry to say that, but that's what happens with those shows.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: You really believe that?

BEHAR: I don't really think that they're interested in men watching that much.

I think they want women to watch it, because that was -- the number we always got was women 18 to 49. That's what they were interested in.

LEMON: Yes.

Can -- do you think "The View" can be saved?

(CROSSTALK)

GRANDERSON: That's an important distinction.

BEHAR: I think it can be saved.

I think they have to go back to the drawing board. The way we were hired in the first place, we were thrown in to a room together. The group that had the most chemistry and that seemed to be smart, that's the group that got the job in the first place. Do it like that.

They keep doing it piecemeal like this.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Jim, the reason I'm doing this is because I think all of us need to sort of sit around the table the way "The View" does and hash things out, including Republicans, Democrats, president, and everyone. Do you think "The View" can be saved a la can the country be saved as well?

MORET: Well, I don't know.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's a lot of onus to put on "The View," right?

BEHAR: My God.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: It's just a little daytime show.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: And, yes, can it be saved? Of course I do, because let's face it? What are we doing right now? We're talking about "The View." It's relevant again. Why? Because Rosie is being thrust into the mix. People want to know what she is going to do, how is she going to interact with Whoopi, who else is coming on board.

And, by the way, Joy, I think that a metrosexual guy like me would be great sitting next to you.

CONWAY: They're all auditioning tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: We like them -- we love them as guests.

MORET: Don has auditioned. So I have to audition too.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: This is the new you right here. Take a selfie, Don.

BEHAR: I personally like it when men are there, to tell you the truth, because you do a little sort of flirtatious thing too with men. It's not so...

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: The men love it.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: But I like that kind of show. But "The View" itself is a woman's show. They can do it somewhere else, I think.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: As a professional market researcher, what -- nobody asked me for my advice on "The View," but one piece of advice I might give is to scrap the 18 to 49 only, because you have got women living into their 80s and 90s now. The idea that 49 is -- maybe it's because I'm too close.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: You better talk to Palmolive and Procter & Gamble.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: But, in fairness, look who they attract as their hosts. Their hosts are not in that demographic because they know they want smart women who have accomplished things to talk.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: L.Z., can "The View" be save and should it?

GRANDERSON: First of all, I don't think it's dying. I think it's changing. And we should not make it too...

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Right.

GRANDERSON: Just because something is going through changes doesn't mean that it necessarily needs to be resuscitated.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Right. I went through my changes. I didn't need to be resuscitated.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Well, that's -- we're not so sure about that.

But, no, the thing is the numbers are going down, right? The numbers have not been great. "The Talk" is going to be in the same time slot.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: They're not the same show, though. "The Talk" and "The View" are not the same show. As somebody in that target demographic, I will tell you.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: All right. Thank you, guys.

We will come right back.

BEHAR: Maybe we should have like "The View" from the Hebrew home for the aged. See, that's a show that everybody would love.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: What happened to our show that we were supposed to do today?

BEHAR: Our show. Well, I already did my pitch to get back on the air.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Why did I bring that up?

All right, Joy. It's always a pleasure.

BEHAR: You and me together, what a team. Laurel and Hardy would eat your hearts out. All right, go.

LEMON: Thank you, Kellyanne, thank you, Jim, thank you, L.Z.

And 52,000 children desperate to make it into America stopped at the border. What should we do about them?

And later, she was looking for a better life too. She drove her Mercedes-Benz to collect food stamps. But there is more to her story than you might think.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: After taking a verbal lashing from Texas Governor Rick Perry, here is President Obama arriving in Dallas and shaking Perry's hand in the midst of what he calls a humanitarian crisis, thousands of children stuck in limbo and desperate to get into the United States.

Joining me now is CNN's Rosa Flores on the border. She has been reporting on this.

Rosa, I want to talk specifically about the unaccompanied children crossing the border. Explain why all of these children are coming here now and where they're coming from.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, let's talk facts first from -- and this is information gathered from federal U.S. agencies that help these unaccompanied minors.

Prior to 2012, Don, they would see between 7,000 to 8,000 unaccompanied minors. In 2012, that number went up to 13,000, then in 2013 to 24,000. And then, of course, we're in the situation we are now where it could be -- it could exceed 60,000.

So the big question, like you said, is why. What is driving this? The story that we keep hearing over and over again is, A, violence. And just think about it. In these countries of Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala, these are the hubs for the ruthless MS-13 gang. They're known as MS-13 here. They're the Mara in that area.

In Honduras, where I was there recently, San Pedro Sula, that particular city is dubbed the murder capital of the world. And then let's talk numbers when it comes to poverty in these countries, a quick breakdown.

El Salvador, 36 percent of the people there are in poverty. In Guatemala, it's 54 percent. And then Honduras, it's 65 percent of the population.

So, you combine all of those things together, and it's a perfect storm, Don, for all of these children to leave their country and risk it all. And, really, what they're leaving behind is not much -- Don.

LEMON: And Rosa, children from Central America are treated differently in this case than those from Mexico, correct? Explain that to us.

FLORES: Yes. When it comes to unaccompanied minors from Central America, a couple of other federal agencies are involved. And that's because of that 2008 law, that controversial law that I'm sure you've been talking about in your show before.

But what happens is so these children get detained on the Rio Grande River. We're right on the river right now. And they do get processed through immigration. But then HHS gets involved. That's Health and Human Services. These children get a child wellness exam. They get vaccines, medication.

And then the goal is really to reunite them with a family member here in the United States while they're going through their immigration proceedings. And Don, let me tell you, from what I hear from my sources, that

process could take between a year and a half and perhaps 18 months because of the backlog. Because so many kids have been coming to the United States recently.

LEMON: Rosa Flores on the Texas-Mexico border. Rosa, thank you very much for that.

So what is America going to do about these border children? Joining me now to go head to head on that is comedian and actor Paul Rodriguez; Alberto Cutie, Episcopal priest and author of "Dilemma: A Priest's Struggle with Faith and Love." And then Jim Gilchrist. He's a founder and president of the Minutemen Project. And back with me is Kellyanne Conway, a Republican strategist.

So Paul, let me start with you. We're a nation of immigrants. Look out there tonight at the Statue of Liberty. We have compassion for children. Why are we so divided in this country as to what to do about this problem?

PAUL RODRIGUEZ, COMEDIAN/ACTOR: I don't think we are divided. I think America has its heart in the right place. We need to be compassionate. We need to be strong and enforce our laws.

It is precisely why we should make it clear in these countries that regardless of the -- of the trauma that they're obviously going through. But name me a Latin American country that doesn't have poor people. We have to set laws. We have to let them know that it isn't the land of milk and honey, that life isn't easy here.

You know, my heart goes out to the parents that have to traumatize their kids to go through Mexico. They must go through terrible abuse. But at the same time, if we accept these children and we don't repatriate them, it's only going to send out a clear signal to everyone in Latin America that, if you get to America, you will stay here. And then, if you think those numbers are big now, it's hard to trust the statistics.

LEMON: People -- people may be surprised to hear that coming from someone who is an immigrant.

RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely. But, you know, there are ways to come to this country, you know. There are ways; there are legal ways. Look, once they're here, I'm not saying to be cruel to them or anything like that. But if we -- if we accept -- let's say we accept these children, we let them stay here in America, we give them good homes, what is this going to say to everybody else? Are we prepared to be overwhelmed? Because that's exactly what's going to happen.

LEMON: OK. I want you guys to listen to the president just a little bit earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The problem here is not a major disagreement around the actions that could be helpful in dealing with the problem. The challenge is, is Congress prepared to act to put the resources in place to get this done. Another way of putting this, and I said this directly to the governor is, are folks more interested in politics or are they more interested in solving the problem?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That is a very good question. What do you make of that, Kellyanne Conway?

CONWAY: We're all interested in solving the problem. I mean, look, I'm going to go with Democratic Texas Congressman Henry Quayer (ph), who's really been out in front on this on behalf of the Democrats in Texas. He has criticized the president. He said the president looks aloof for having a beer and playing pool with the Colorado governor, John Hickenlooper.

LEMON: Republicans control the House. They have done nothing on immigration, Kellyanne.

CONWAY: Well, hold on. What exactly, just sitting here right now, what is the four-point Obama -- President Obama plan on immigration? Can anybody tell me? I doubt it.

LEMON: Well, what is -- what is the Republicans' plan on immigration? And that's exactly what the president -- this back and forth that we're having now is exactly what the president said.

And I do have to say that I agree with him. This was a law that was put into place by former President Bush when he was about to exit the office. And all of the sudden it is now President Obama's problem, when no one, Democrat or Republican, has done anything about it.

CONWAY: And that's everybody's problem.

OBAMA: If he acts on his own, he gets sued.

CONWAY: It's everybody's problem. But you're talking about comprehensive immigration reform. I'm answering your question about the crisis at the border, which is nothing short of a crisis.

LEMON: No, the president just said he wants to pass a supplemental bill, and he wants the Republicans, House Republicans from Texas, to do it. And he wants compromise from Republicans. That's what I'm asking here.

CONWAY: I'm sure he does. But what is he going to say to people like the Democratic congressmen from Arizona, from Texas who are taking him to task, and he absolutely capitulated.

LEMON: Kellyanne, you're missing the point. It's not about taking anyone to task. This is about working together.

CONWAY: Don, that's right. But what's on the table right now? In other words, what does he want? He's asked them for $3.7 billion. But what's on the table in terms of the four-point plan? I want to hear it. Because you can't just sit there and make it -- he made it about him, today. "Oh, if I put a piece of legislation of apple pie they would be against it."

LEMON: Kellyanne, the president said he agreed with Texas Governor Rick Perry tonight. Were you listening to his press conference?

CONWAY: Yes, I listened to the whole thing. And I'm sure he is.

LEMON: He is very conciliatory.

CONWAY: I'm sure he is.

LEMON: He said, "I listened to him. He's got a point on this; he's got a point on that. If they want to work together, I am willing to do it."

So what gives here? Jim, as a Minuteman, you know, you have seen the border first-hand. The president didn't go to the border, despite only being about 500 miles away. He said he wasn't interested in political theater.

Should he have gone or is that -- I don't understand why he should have gone. I think it's more important to do something about the problem rather than a photo op. But go ahead.

JIM GILCHRIST, MINUTEMAN PROJECT: Is that a question for me?

LEMON: That's for you, yes.

GILCHRIST: The president did what a president usually does. He makes comments, gives his acceptable opinions of an issue. What the president did for me was what all prior presidents, other than Dwight Eisenhower, has done on this issue, and that's to give us more empty rhetoric. I don't think we have any president since Eisenhower who has ever had any intention of seriously enforcing our immigration laws.

Case in point, ten years ago when I launched the Minuteman Project, I see very little difference now in so far as enforcing our laws internally than I did in 2004.

LEMON: But isn't that the problem, that nothing has been done for years, even though everyone says it's a political problem; they keep pointing fingers at each other and nobody is doing anything about it?

GILCHREST: But the president did...

LEMON: I want to get Father Cutie in this.

FATHER ALBERT CUTIE, EPISCOPAL PRIEST: Nobody wants to talk about a fundamental issue that I always find has everything to do with what we see going on in the borders, and it's the fact that this is the result of ignoring your neighbors. Our neighbors to the south is something that we don't deal with in this country.

We spend trillions of dollars in the Middle East in a war that obviously hasn't resulted in anything positive. We're spending more money now. And we don't anything to alleviate poverty in Central America. We don't do anything to alleviate poverty in Mexico.

So we have people coming all the time. And now we have children. And we're saying, "Well, why don't we send them back." Would you send children back to Nazi Germany? Would you send children back do Castro's Cuba and to all these dictatorships and places where children don't have the fundamental basic things that we take for granted here every day?

LEMON: Father, I understand that. I have to play devil's advocate.

CUTIE: ... poverty.

LEMON: Because there are plenty of children in this country who don't have the resources, as well.

CONWAY: Exactly.

CUTIE: Of course. But what the children in our country don't have...

LEMON: ... in big cities all across America. They face war zones, as well.

CUTIE: I agree. But you can't compare the poverty in the U.S. with the poverty in Central America. And if you do that, you don't know Central America. I'm sorry to tell you that. But I've been in Guatemala. I've been in El Salvador. I've been in Nicaragua. I've been in all these countries. And I know them well.

And I'm going to tell you something. When we start dealing with these countries and we begin to treat them as our neighbors, and we begin to understand who they are, instead of spending so much time on the other side of the world in cultures that that we don't even understand, that I'm going to tell you, a lot of this can be resolved.

But the fact is our politicians in Washington, our Congress doesn't want to deal with our neighbors.

LEMON: Paul, I'll give you the last word. Paul, go ahead.

RODRIGUEZ: Look, the president, I believe, made a mistake by not showing -- showing up. This would have brought attention. But that's not a biggie.

What has happened is that there is a war. We're not aware of what is going on there are more people's lives have been lost through the cartel war right there in the city of Juarez than there has been in the entire war in Iraq.

LEMON: I got to go, Paul.

RODRIGUEZ: Talking about people. But Mexico needs more attention. Immigration definitely needs attention. I blame both Republicans and Democrats.

LEMON: Paul, Father Cutie and Jim Gilchrist, Kellyanne Conway, thank you very much, I appreciate it. Great conversation. We're going to stick around, because we're going to talk a little bit more. I'm getting ahead of myself here.

When we come right back, I want to talk about what will politics, what will it take to put politics behind us to solve this particular issue? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I thought we were done with it, but apparently we're not. Because back with me now, Paul Rodriguez, Father Alberto Cutie, Jim Gilchrist Gilchrist and Kellyanne Conway.

Jim, moments after the president said let's stop with the partisan, the politics or whatever, and do something about it, I want you to listen to Senator Ted Cruz on FOX, not long after the president spoke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: But apparently, he doesn't have time to actually go and see the border. He doesn't have time to go see the children who are suffering because of his failed policies. Earlier he was playing pool. Apparently, playing a game of pool is a higher priority for this president than it would be to go and see the humanitarian crisis he's created.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Jim, what about, you know, I watched the president. It's unfortunate that he didn't go see the children. But I agree with him, we need to work on something and get this done immediately. Where is that?

GILCHRIST: Certainly, the United States is not in the business of letting people die in the street, regardless of where they're from. These kids are kids who have no idea what's happening to them. They deserve and should be medically taken care of, make sure they're medically stabilized. That they're fed, that they're housed and they're clothed and clean, et cetera.

LEMON: I understand that.

GILCHRIST: Then they should as soon as possible be deported.

LEMON: I don't think anyone disagrees with that, Jim. I'm asking where is the cooperation that the president asked for instead of political talking points?

GILCHRIST: From my point of view, the -- there's only one divide between the Republicans and the Democrats on this issue. The Democrats want to give a pathway to citizenship to the millions of illegal aliens who are here currently, in violation of our laws.

LEMON: You're still not answering my question, Jim.

GILCHRIST: The Republicans do not want to give that amnesty.

LEMON: Jim, you're still not answering my question. CONWAY: Maybe it's hard to answer the question, because the president

didn't answer it today.

GILCHRIST: Kelly?

CONWAY: I didn't say the president say, "Here is the five-part solution. Can we all agree upon this?" If he did, I missed that part of his press conference, and I apologize.

LEMON: Maybe I'm missing something because I think what everyone...

RODRIGUEZ: Well, one of the...

LEMON: ... best things, the best thing for the children, the best thing for everyone is we figure out a way to do this.

CONWAY: Agreed, agreed.

LEMON: OK. So then what is this with the five points?

CONWAY: You know what, Don? I'll tell you the first one in public opinion. For 20 years now, Democrat, Republican, independent, over 80 percent of Americans agreed secure the border. It's almost become an automatic response to them. And nobody ever has. Nobody has ever done it sufficiently. We spend a ton of money down there, trillions of dollars probably, billions of dollars, trying to secure the border, and it clearly is not there yet.

LEMON: Kellyanne, listen.

CONWAY: But it's still a good goal.

LEMON: We're having a broader conversation about immigration, I agree with you. Not necessarily about what we should do with the border, but we should have a broader conversation about immigration. That's not what I'm asking you. We're talking about these children who are pouring across the border.

CONWAY: That I would love to talk about.

LEMON: What to do with them? The president said, "We need to do something. Let's work together and stop playing politics here." That's what I'm asking you about.

CONWAY: Agreed.

LEMON: I'm not asking you about reform of the entire immigration.

CONWAY: OK.

LEMON: And the question is where was that -- where is that, instead of political talking points?

CONWAY: Agreed. Everybody should agree to treat them with the humanity -- humanitarian and compassionate way that is the American way, period. They are victims in this. But those who truly care about the children should think long and hard

about what we're doing with them. To see all the pictures, they're suffering. And so we should administer to them, there's no question. We -- I don't know if they need to be medically checked, vaccinated, whatever the procedures are, certainly fed and clothed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE; Right.

CONWAY: And then we need to decide what to do with them. I agree with Paul Rodriguez. I don't think we can handle the people here.

RODRIGUEZ: Let me just say, let's take the father's side.

CUTIE: We have plenty of humanitarian organizations that can help.

RODRIGUEZ: We allow these 7,000 children to stay here and grow up American and go to our schools. What do we say to the 60,000 that are going to follow them and the 150,000. Can we house them all, Father? Do we have the whereabouts? We can't even take care of our own kids here now. I know that...

CUTIE: The truth is there are plenty of church.

LEMON: Let's let him weigh in. Last word, Father cutie. Go ahead.

CUTIE: I think lots of churches, lots of humanitarian organizations in our country have already expressed an interest in helping them. I think as an American nation, we've got to redefine ourselves. I think we're going through a huge crisis of identity.

This is the land of immigration. Look around you. We've got a Mexican-American over here, Irish-American talking, African-American talking. I'm a Cuban-American. Guess what? We're all hyphenated. So what's the big deal? Why can't we continue being a welcoming nation?

RODRIGUEZ: Are we prepared for the millions, the millions that will surely follow?

CUTIE: ... do it the right way.

LEMON: That's going to have to be it. Thank you very much. But the one thing that's all, we may be African American, may be Cuban- American, whatever, American is in there. We're all Americans. Thank you. I appreciate all of you.

Just ahead, a story that will surprise you. How this woman went from a comfortable middle-class life to financial disaster and what she did about it, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A "Washington Post" article getting a whole lot of attention. It is titled "This is What Happened When I Drove my Mercedes to Pick up Food Stamps." The writer and her family fell on hard times, and she did in fact drive her Mercedes to pick up public assistance. She's Darlena Cunha, and she joins us now. Thank you, Darlena, for

joining us. You're a local television producer. You're college educated. You're in a stable relationship. But within a matter of just a few months, you found yourself on government assistance. How did that happen?

DARLENA CUNHA, EXPERIENCED FINANCIAL HARDSHIP: Well, a lot of things happened all at once. So we were both working. You know, good enough jobs, and we had enough money for two people to live on very comfortably with room for savings. And I was pregnant at the time with my baby daughters, my twins. And two weeks before we went to give birth, he lost his job. He saw a pink slip, and that was it. For that, and it wasn't half of the income. He was making, more than me.

So suddenly we found ourselves, after having bought our house to house our twins, we found ourselves not only with less than half of our income, because I was making my maternity leave income once the girls were born, we also found ourselves facing mortgage on a house that was now worth about half what we had paid for it.

LEMON: You were upside-down on your home. And a lot of people, this was in 2007-2008, around that time. And a lot of people found themselves in a similar situation. So many Americans can relate to what you're saying.

Your article is called "What Happened When I Drove My Mercedes to Pick up Food Stamps." Can you explain how you got into the position where you were driving your Mercedes to pick up coupons, food, milk and baby formula? I know that you said you had a sick kid, and then your husband lost his job. But then you still had a Mercedes.

CUNHA: Yes. We did. Before I go further, I really, really want to point out that I was not on Food Stamps. Food Stamps is SNAP, and it is a different program. I was on Women, Infants and Children.

LEMON: Right.

CUNHA: Which is vouchers. So it's just been a sticking point with the article, and I want people to know that we were on WIC, which is a much easier program to get into, less stringent. So we were able to keep both of our cars, for instance, and many other things. They didn't check us out nearly as much as they would for something who needs that form of help, which is also perfectly legitimate to need.

But anyway, so I was picking up the coupons, the vouchers, because my girls were born at 34 weeks, and I couldn't breast-feed them because they could not latch, because they were premature. So I was pumping and eventually I had to supplement with formula and then switch over to formula. And at that time, formula was about $15 per one can. And I had two children to feed. And I had to feed them formula for about a year and a half. Because of their premature birth and just the different dietary things that they particularly needed. Most children start eating solids at 1.

LEMON: Darlena? CUNHA: And -- yes?

LEMON: A lot of people ask, when I read some of the comments on your article, and they're like why couldn't you sell your Mercedes? Why didn't you and your husband sell your Mercedes if you were -- instead of going on assistance?

CUNHA: Well, what's the point of that, honestly? We had -- it was a 2003.

LEMON: The point is money.

CUNHA: We would have gotten a couple of -- we would have gotten a couple of thousand dollars for it, and we would have had to buy a new car, because I was working at the time, which I think is also being glossed over. After my maternity leave, I went back to work. And I needed a car to drive 90 miles one way and 90 miles back the other way. And he needed a car in case there was an emergency with our kids.

So to sell the Mercedes, to have to take the time to put it up, and then take the time to get a sale and then take the time to find another car that's maybe less reliable, that is going to -- we need car payments on or we can pay totally off but it's a beater and is going to break down every two seconds and then we have to pay for repairs and it's always in the shop, there is no reason to do that. So we didn't. We held on to it.

LEMON: You also say you learned that poverty is a circumstance, not a value judgment. What about the idea that, in this country, hard work can lead you out of poverty? Do you still -- do you still believe that?

CUNHA: I don't think that there are many people on assistance that are not hard workers. And I feel that that would be the main point of the piece itself. You don't get into poverty and have to rely on government assistance because you're a lazy, quote/unquote, welfare queen most of the time. These people are hardworking American citizens. They're working two and three jobs.

And when you are broke, you don't have the time to find out ways to save money. You're busy spending it on food. You can't pay your rent. And when you can't pay rent or pay for your car payment or pay for a speeding ticket, that $200 that I can pay now, they can't pay it, and it turns into a thousand dollars plus other fines.

LEMON: You know what? And you're right.

CUNHA: It's expensive to be poor.

LEMON: That is a perception in this country that many people who need assistance are lazy or they don't want to work. And I'm glad that you are here to share that, not the typical face that most would think of someone who would need assistance in America. Thank you, Darlena Cunha for telling your story. We appreciate it.

CUNHA: Thank you.

LEMON: All right. Next, is LeBron James closer to a career decision?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: This is "CNN TONIGHT Tomorrow," the stories that you will be talking about tomorrow.

First, we're getting late word of a deadly domestic shooting near Houston. Police say four children, two adults are dead and a 15-year- old was rushed to the hospital. Police are locked in a standoff with the suspected gunman, who's believed to be an in-law of the adult victims.

Meanwhile, is tomorrow the day that NBA superstar LeBron James reveals his next career move? ESPN is reporting that James met with Miami Heat officials this afternoon, but has yet to meet with the Cleveland Cavaliers. So stay tuned.

Boy. What a contentious show this was. I enjoyed it. I hope you did. Thanks for watching. I'm Don Lemon. That's it for us tonight. "AC 360" starts right now.