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Dr. Drew
Hot Car Toddler Death
Aired July 09, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, hot car dad caught in his lies on social media.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the flirting Web site and smartphone app Scout under the name of "RJ" are three profile photos all appear to be Harris.
PINSKY: Plus, police recreate the death scene. They want to know how hot it really got inside that SUV -- 120 degrees?
Then, remember cardboard box mom, the woman accused of killing six of her newborns and then saving her corpses? She`s an addict, according to
police.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, we have a ton to get to tonight in the hot car death case.
Police recreating the scene and the spotlight is on the social media accounts that appear to be those of the accused murderer, the father.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: And, Dr. Drew, we`re going to hear from a man who was at the scene when Harris supposedly discovered that his son was
dead. And he claims that Harris` emotion was genuine.
PINSKY: Well, so he says.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: But supposedly indeed, Sam.
What we have, what we believe to believe Justin Harris`s online profile. It`s from a site he allegedly used to meet his other women and
carry one his advertise of sex addiction. The photos appear to show the accused murderer of the gentleman who killed his child, left his own child
in a hot car. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s got this whole second life that he`s living with alternate personalities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Portraying him instead as a man yearning to be single and involved in online relationships.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New social media pictures are emerging of Justin Ross Harris and a profile page for the dating site Scout.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under the name "RJ" are three profile photos, "Just looking to talk. Message me. I`m harmless." Used a messages site
to sext women on the day his son died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are photo of his exposed penis, erect penis being sent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is not a big deal. People sext, that`s why there is a word called sexting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harris claims he forgot to drop his son off daycare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks up how to kill a kid and the kid dies. He looks up how to get around statutory, and he`s sexting a girl who`s
under age.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then eight months ago, "Yes, I`m married."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Sam, I missed something yesterday. Anahita says sexting is no big deal. We learn something about her. When he comes back tomorrow,
she`ll be sure to get on us.
SCHACHER: Exactly.
PINSKY: Joining us is my panel, Jillian Barberie, co-host of "Midday L.A." on KABC Radio, Vanessa Barnett, host of HipHollywood.com, and Yasmin
Vossoughian, HLN correspondent.
New video from WAGA shows police reenacting what they believe happened to that poor toddler. They used the actual vehicle parked in precisely the
same spot on a day with similar temperatures.
Yasmin, what are they up?
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Look, I think that the detective in the probable case said basically that car smelled like death
when they found that baby. They need to figure out exactly when that child died. So, I think that`s part of the reason why they`re doing this
reenactment to find out exactly when that child died. So, when Justin Harris went back to the car at around 12:35 to throw his light bulbs in,
was his son already dead?
And there`s another hole in this case, I actually checked out the timeline from that day, there`s a big gaping whole. So, Justin Harris gets
back to his car. He throws the light bulb in after lunch. Then, he walks away. He pauses because someone passes him and he gets on his phone. But
the detective on the probable cause case actually said there were no phone calls made from his cell phone before 4:00 p.m.
So, what was he doing? Was that a fake phone call around 4:00 p.m.? I don`t know.
PINSKY: Trying to distract -- trying to distract somebody? I think this guy was so involved in his sexting and his sexual addiction that
everything on his phone and social media was probably about that.
Jillian, I see you taking big deep breath to try to deal with the horror of this case. We`ve not heard from you yet on this. Go ahead.
JILLIAN BARBERIE, MIDDAY L.A.: As a mom I get emotional thinking about this poor boy and now we`re learning more that he was scratching his
face. The whole image is beyond haunting and terrifying.
But this guy, you know, you forget a wallet at a restaurant, you forget your keys, you don`t forget a kid.
I strongly believe that his sexting and insurance policies, I have two kids, I don`t have insurance policy -- like it`s just all weird, the mother
-- the Internet search, how long it takes for a person to die in a hot car.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARBERIE: Come on. Guilt, guilt, guilt, put him away in a cage. He should never have the right to have children ever again. Throw away the
kid.
SCHACHER: Jillian, you brought up the fact that he had scratches on him, abrasions on the back of his head, because he was struggling to get
out of that car seat, and then we learned that the parents upgraded his rear-facing car seat to a forward one because he outgrew the rear one and
then right before this tragedy took place, they put him back in the rear facing one. And then we learn that the police said he was strapped in so
tight to that of a level of a kid much younger, much smaller than him.
PINSKY: You know what?
SCHACHER: Why, Dr. Drew? Because they didn`t want him to break free. It`s disgusting.
PINSKY: The idea of binding the child like that, all of that for some reason becomes circumstantial. I know, Vanessa, you`re kind of a skeptic
here. But hold on. The part that I find, it just makes me disgusted is to look at his profiles like on Scout.
SCHACHER: Justin Bieber hair cut? It`s so annoying.
PINSKY: He uses the screen name "RJ", he`s so cool. He says, hey, I`m just looking to talk, message me, I`m harmless. Indeed, harmless.
BARBERIE: And he lies about his age.
PINSKY: Lies about his age. He says he`s interested in women. Tells them he`s married. But trolling out there and looking for sleazy sexual
encounters. There`s the selfie in the latrine. Nice.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Well done, sir. What`s that, Vanessa?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: What`s up with him lying about his age but not lying about the fact that he`s married? Is that more enticing
to women that he`s actually married but --
PINSKY: It`s nauseating.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: He`s a disgusting jerk, he`s a pervert. But I -- I know I stand out as the skeptic. But I just want to caution myself before just
throwing this guy in jail because we`ve done this before. We`ve done with this with the Casey Anthonys. We`ve even done this with the George
Zimmermans and then we get to the end of these trials and people are pissed because the sufficient evidence isn`t there.
This guy had a Scout account, millions of people have social media. The guy changed the car seat when regulation says you`re not supposed to
have your child facing forward until they`re two years old.
BARBERIE: What about the insurance?
BARNETT: It all sounds crazy, but if he wants insurance, that`s what it`s there for.
BARBERIE: Why would you look on the Internet to find how long it takes for a person to die in a hot car?
BARNETT: It all sounds -- I`m not excusing the behavior and I`m not even saying he`s innocent. What I`m saying is I don`t want to get to the
end of this and there is no justice for this child because it happens over and over again. There`s not enough sufficient evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Vanessa, I`m glad you`re there. I`m glad you keep reminding us of that when Anahita is not here to remind us.
BARBERIE: Well, I`ll just say Susan Smith. She killed her children because she sexts.
PINSKY: Well, but that was --
BARBERIE: Anahita says sexting is no big deal. It can cause people to do crazy things.
PINSKY: Well, Susan Smith had a postpartum psychosis. And you can understand that there. This one is, we cannot get our head around.
But if you`re feeling like I am, I was skeptical at first like Vanessa is. But the more I see about the behavior and the more circumstantial
evidence that does accumulate, the kinds of -- we`re getting into the world of depravity here. We`re getting to the question really, is this guy
depraved or not?
He`s not sick, because there`s in evidence of that. But is he depraved? And was he hiding depravity behind a hyper religious veneer?
Next, you`re going to hear from the mom`s former classmate, behavior bureau is coming in.
And later, an equally disturbing story. A woman accused of preserving the corpses of her dead newborns in the garage in cardboard boxes. We now
believe we have an explanation.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leanna Harris, the baby`s mother, also part of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in front of several witnesses, all of the sudden she states, "Ross must have left him in the car."
PINSKY: A lot of what people are wondering about is the seeming lack of emotion.
JOHN PEARSON: The Leanna I knew was not always an emotional person. So, to say that, you know, her being able to be behind the emotion at this
point or not show the emotion could be the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, we`re talking about Justin Ross Harris, the father so-called, who police say deliberately left his son in a car --
scorching hot car -- to die. Police say one of the Internet searches on Justin`s computer was child free. It is a, Sam, get this, a forum for
people who don`t want children. He also had a couple of other -- maybe you guys tell me the names of the others. I can`t remember them.
They were all bizarre sites dedicated to demeaning children and child rearing, right? Would you say? Brad free was one of them, Bradfree.com,
fantastic site.
SCHACHER: Right. And I know, and almost glamorizing some of these deaths, too, Dr. Drew. Did you see that? OK, good.
PINSKY: Yes. I`m going to read some of that. I need my anti-nausea medication to kick in first.
SCHACHER: Me, too.
PINSKY: Let`s bring in the behavior bureau.
Shirley Impellizzeri, clinical psychologist, Jennifer Keitt, radio host and life coach, and Claudia Jordan, TV host, radio host.
Jennifer, why would people go on these sites? Why would they have these sites? I guess there`s something for everything, something for
everyone in the Internet no. But who is going to these things?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Dr. Drew, I said it first on this show. This guy did not want to be a dad and to me this absolutely unequivocally
without a doubt proves it. When you get into parents and realize that it is not the glamour that you thought it was, and you can see with his
behavior going on other kinds of sites looking for women, trying to figure out who he is and what he wants, that beautiful precious baby boy was
getting in the way. I think they went on the site, he especially, to verify what he was already thinking in his heart and mind, Dr. Drew, and
it`s sad.
PINSKY: And, Claudia, Jennifer is build a case for depravity. That`s the sense I`m getting. Again, it`s substantial but we`re building that
case.
Do you agree?
CLAUDIA JORDAN, TV HOST: I agree. I mean, this guy -- no one is holding a gun to this man`s head to: (a), be a husband, (b), be a father
and be a good father. If you don`t want to be married, don`t be married. If you don`t want to be a dad, don`t have kids. If you don`t want to be a
dad and kill your kid, why don`t you give the child to the mom or someone else that cares.
This guy, I get more and more disgusted every single day. This guy, I`m ready to lock him up and throw away the key. He`s guilty.
PINSKY: Samantha?
SCHACHER: Yes. To piggyback on your point. I mean, it`s so sad that there are so many couples out there who have trouble conceiving and then
you see this couple, and I`m going to say both of them, because I definitely think that the mother is complicit in this as well, you see them
just absolutely not care about being a parent and killing their child and putting their child in such an agonizing death when so many people would
kill to be a parent.
KEITT: I agree.
PINSKY: Shirley, maybe we`re all becomes guilty of the fundamental attribution error. We`re seeing all this stuff, all the circumstantial
evidence and we`re putting a character pathology on this guy, because I think we`re fatiguing, where the story is getting so disgusting.
SHIRLEY IMPELLIZZERI, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think it`s because the evidence is there. I mean, you know, there is something
about forgetting, you know, the primitive part of the brain goes on auto pilot when you do something every single day. And so, you know, if you`re
going to work every single day and you don`t drop off your child, you add something in there, you`ve disassociated, you`re just going to work, you
could forget, but there`s so much evidence against this guy.
I think we`re seeing the perfect combination of a narcissist and a borderline.
PINSKY: Wow.
IMPELLIZZERI: A narcissist who thinks he`s above the law, which is why he did the research on his own computer thinking he wouldn`t get
caught. I mean, you would think he`d go to Pinchos (ph) or something, right? And a sociopath who has disregard for human life. He could have
said, hey, parenting is not for me, let me put my child up for adoption. I need some help for my support system.
He had a huge congregation he could have gotten help from. The other thing about a sociopath is they very much care about the reputation.
PINSKY: So, they hide -- he hides it.
IMPELLIZZERI: Well, he would have tarnished his reputation if he would have said, hey, listen, guys, parenting not really for me. Sorry.
PINSKY: Yes. And instead, the religious community hid behind would not have dug that so much.
Speaking of digging, we looked into some of these other child-free sites. This is what Sam was talking about.
I don`t know if I want to laugh or cry at this. It is so bizarre. Here, look at this. "Looks like parents will have to get more creative.
Lil sizzlers are this decade`s sudden infant death syndrome."
Lil sizzler`s are this decade`s SIDS.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s disgusting.
SCHACHER: Who are these people?
PINSKY: Lil sizzlers are references to children who die in hot cars.
KEITT: It hurts my stomach.
JORDAN: It`s almost like there`s a comedy element to it, like they think this is funny. And there`s nothing funny about this. This man drove
to work, left the child, did the research before he even got here, checked on the kid to see if he was alive still. And the fact that the evidence
coming out that the child was strapped in so tightly so he probably couldn`t move or do anything, it just breaks my heart.
PINSKY: Just breathtaking and the idea that there are other people like him relating to what he was doing and glorifying it, what --
SCHACHER: Who are these people?
PINSKY: And the police say he went to these sites two months before Cooper`s death. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went to a site called child-free and child free is a people who advocate living child free. They advocate not having any
more children and adding to the biomass.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he access articles in that topic?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did. Over four of them or four.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I don`t know. Shirley, what do you say?
IMPELLIZZERI: I mean, who does that? Who does that?
PINSKY: Who participates in these sites? Who are these people?
(CROSSTALK)
IMPELLIZZERI: But you know, they believe they`re above the law that they wouldn`t get caught? I mean, how narcissistic do you have to be?
PINSKY: Jennifer, I`m flummoxed by this whole thing. It`s just too much for me. Jennifer?
KEITT: I can`t wait to see what happens about -- I can`t wait what happens with that wife as well, because I`m wondering now, is he the cause
or is she kind of complicit in this thing or is he trying to -- is he the starter or is she the finisher? How does that work.
PINSKY: And, Sam, you said -- you think the wife the mastermind.
SCHACHER: I do. I think she`s absolutely the mastermind.
PINSKY: Listen, I`ve got to get out. What about the toxicology test on Cooper? Dr. Bill Lloyd is here to give us and discuss that with us.
And later, punch and run. That`s what a man is accused of -- look at that. Unbelievable. He punches and takes off. We have the viral video
after the break. Look at that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the defendant try to describe to Leanna how Cooper looked when he pulled him out of that car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did. They were left alone in the room and he look at her and he looked peaceful. He said Cooper`s eyes were closed, his
mouth was closed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did the other officers describe how he looked on the scene?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, they did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were his eyes closed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was his mouth closed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not.
As we`re watching their reunion, he goes, "I dreaded how he would look."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jillian, Vanessa, Claudia.
Joining us by phone, I`ve got forensic pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd.
Some of the pictures were from Facebook, which we`ve been watching here. And we`re talking, of course, about the death of 22-month-old Cooper
Harris. Did these parents actually plan or premeditate in some fashion this child`s murder?
Dr. Bill, we have some breaking news. CNN cannot independently confirm but our affiliates at WAGA and WXIA are reporting that the child`s
toxicology has come up clean -- meaning the child was not given any drugs of any kind. Does that surprise you?
DR. BILL LLOYD, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, Drew, any time there`s an unnatural death, a death from non-natural causes, they`ll
always do toxicology studies. They want to find out a complete medical history. What regular medication someone is taking.
But in this specific case, toxicology is very important because they want to find out if perhaps the father slipped the child a Benadryl
cocktail, or some other medication that perhaps would have made him drowsy or unresponsive and perhaps facilitated the death by the --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Facilitated, wow, nice euphemism.
Dr. Lloyd, I`m interested in finding out what the dad (AUDIO GAP.
What I want to do now, though, is I want you to take me through what that poor child likely experienced as things overheated. You know, as I
think about hyperthermia in that (INAUDIBLE), it would come on rather rapidly because of the small surface area and the difficulty with sweating,
and the low volume. But the brain swelling that that child must have gone through has got to be one of the most miserable aspects of this process.
LLOYD: Well, yes. Just like anyone with the heat injury. The very first symptom, this is important for all parents, the very first symptom
that a child has with a heat injury is a headache.
In this case, the temperature was climbing above 100 degrees and I think that exemplar testing they`re doing in the parking lot will show
that, it would have led to rapid rise in the core body temperature and in addition to all of the other organs that will fail, the brain will cause
the most problems, of course, because as the brain swells, the profusion, the circulation is compromised and, of course, his body`s ability to
automatically regulate the increase in temperature completely shuts off. And then he would have passed out from that. But before then he would have
had a lollapalooza of a headache.
PINSKY: Right, and the crazy electrolyte imbalances he could have gotten into.
And I just want to remind people that the skull -- the brain is in a closed space. I don`t know if my skeleton is coming up on board here. But
it is a hollow sort of bowl that the brain sits in. And it expands. When the lid is on it, it has nowhere to go, it expands and crushes and
herniates. It is an awful, awful thought.
Yes, I know.
Jillian?
BARBERIE: They should have given him Benadryl. That would have been a compassionate thing to do, because he would have been out of it, at
least. This is horrible, and it`s vile every way you look at it. And if you don`t want a child in your life, put him up for adoption. I was
adopted. There are good endings too.
I mean, to go through all of this. If you`re on the Internet looking for how long it takes to die in a hot car, you`re sexting girls, you know,
everything`s kind of put on your way, it`s despicable, but people do things like that.
PINSKY: Well, Jillian, and I agree -- I think whatever -- even if it wasn`t premeditated, Claudia, just the fact that he was into these sort of
-- let`s call them depraved activities, he was so distracted that he couldn`t be a parent. He puts the child -- I want people to understand
what this child went through. Isn`t that enough to have some -- this man to need some punishment?
JORDAN: Yes. Oh, he should get severe punishment. I agree with Jillian. It made me even sadder to know that the toxicology report came
back negative because I would have been almost, OK --
PINSKY: Relieved.
JORDAN: --the child doesn`t suffer as much. A little bit of relief that this child -- he let that child suffer at the highest level. And he
researched it, so he knew what was going to happen.
He knew what was going to happen to this child probably step by step because clearly this idiot, this jerk, likes to research the evil things
he`s about to do to someone. The fact that it`s his own child, 22 months old -- I mean, are you already
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: So, Vanessa, I`m building this for you because I know you`re skeptical of the premeditation. In reality, so am I. Sometimes, I`m sort
of playing devil`s advocate by really pushing on the fact that he may have been premeditated. He might have been, but in my heart, I`m a little
skeptical. That`s all circumstantial.
But the actuality of what this man`s choices were and what it led to for this child, isn`t that enough?
BARNETT: It is. I`m just at a place where even if he didn`t want the child, even if he didn`t care about that child, just as human beings to
know what would happen -- like, I don`t know Cooper. I know the women on this panel don`t know Cooper, but we`re literally in tears thinking about
the things that this young boy had to go through.
PINSKY: Right.
BARNETT: And I think that`s almost why I`m so reluctant to believe it because I don`t even know this boy.
PINSKY: It`s too much.
BARNETT: It`s too much, Dr. Drew. It`s way too much. I can`t.
PINSKY: Vanessa, I`m in your camp. I`m with you. My head can`t get around it. And yet I`m fatiguing and beginning to think that it`s just
depravity, Sam.
SCHACHER: Yes. I mean, at this point, it`s common sense. It`s common sense that he drove 10 minutes and did not smell as the officers
described it, death in the car. I mean, come on. How much more red flags do we need to convince people that this man is evil and what he did is far
more sinister than just neglect?
PINSKY: So, here we are as a panel.
But next, I`m going to bring in someone who was there when the baby was pulled from the car. He says, all of us that are arriving at this
opinion, the court of public opinion has it all wrong, that depravity wasn`t the issue. He was there and he saw it. He wants to make a case.
And later, did drugs take priority over the lives of six more newborn babies who were ultimately found dead and stuffed in cardboard boxes in the
garage.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Describe Justin Ross Harris to us, as you know him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was a genuinely nice guy. He was very hardworking, and intelligent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was having up to six different conversations with different women.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was reliable and always willing to help others in need, whether it`d be a class project or a personal matter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These conversations he was having with these females, were these -- of what nature were they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most common term would be sexting.
OPRAH WINFREY: Do you think he is capable of it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): The Ross I knew in college, absolutely not. Never intentional.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): If I am the defense, I am using the fact that he was sexting with six different women in any favor saying he is
possibly a sex addict and that is why the reason he could have forgotten that his son was in the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jillian, Vanessa and Yasmin. Some of those pictures are from Facebook to remind you. And, that woman is not the only
one who thinks Justin Harris purposely left his baby to die in the car. Witness to the scene says, he cannot believe the judge or Justin to be held
without a bud. Here is what he said in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The father, Mr. Ross, had just given his child CPR and about two other people came near to assist. As I got closer,
you could just hear his cries and his desperation for his son to be revived.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Jillian, let me play devil`s advocate for just a second here. What if we have got it wrong? We just got it wrong. The
circumstantial evidence is just that, circumstantial and random and just a weird coincidence of life and in fact this man is suffering because he made
this horrible mistake. Now, he made it because he was sexting and preoccupied and maybe a sex addict, which by the way, in my mind, is a
condemnation. It is not an excuse. It is a condemnation. What say you?
JILLIAN BARBERIE, CANADIAN ACTRESS: I say you forget keys, you do not forget a child. And, you know, he is an absolute moron. That is his worst
defense. But you are telling me that he is looking up how long it takes for a person to die in a hot car.
PINSKY: So, you are back to the circumstancial stuff? You cannot get over that.
BARBERIE: Come on. It is smells like this. And, by the way, this is not is baby that is what is happening to me. This is a walking and
talking, wearing clothes, you know, coming up to you little child.
PINSKY: Toddler. It is a toddler.
BARBERIE: To know that -- he understood that things were not right is to me, horrific.
PINSKY: Listen. I pushed that point a second ago. I just wanted parents to know, to think about it when they leave their kids or their
animals in a hot car because it is absolutely gruelling what they are putting living beings through. Yasmin?
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Dr. Drew. I think the fact that he did not show any emotion in court. I mean he showed emotion
on that day when he discovered it. He showed no emotion in court. The only time he actually showed any emotion was when they talked about his
activities when he was sexting. That was the only time. That was the only time.
PINSKY: What did he show? What was the emotion? He was ashamed?
VOSSOUGHIAN: He looks like he was upset. I think he sort of like leaned over. He looked shameful. He cried a little bit. Otherwise, he
showed no emotion. You would think if you had just lost your child that tragically. This horribly, you would be tearing your hair out and
screaming and crying and the mom was chewing gum just staring off into the distance. It was insane to me.
SAM SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER": Yes. I do not buy it. I do not buy what the witness says.
PINSKY: His behaviour looks a little bit better. It looks like I did not expect that kind vomiting and tearing his hair, Sam?
SCHACHER: Look at her, look at her just chomping on her gum. It is so annoying. And, I am sorry, this witness? I mean, really? Does he
believe that gullible was removed from the dictionary? I mean every other witness , Dr. Drew, that was there that day, they described this father as
his behaviour being odd, that it did not add up. And, it seems like that he was putting on a show. So, I am sorry, one of the 25 witnesses? Do not
buy it.
PINSKY: Vanessa. Now, Vanessa --
BARBERIE: I want to say --
PINSKY: I want to give Vanessa chance here too. So, let me play devil`s advocate, again, with you, Vanessa.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Lets do that.
PINSKY: So, it is accumulated evidence. It is all circumstantial. It is hard, you know? Jillian cannot let go of it because it is so
specific to the circumstances ultimately unfolding. But, lets say none of that happened. Still the fact that he was so preoccupied with his sexual
behaviors and his chatting online and -- I mean all of that took priority over his child`s survival.
BARNETT: Yes. It proves that he was neglectful. It proves that he is a pervert. It proves that he is possibly a paedophile. It proves a lot
of things. He is a disgusting human being. He is a poor husband. But, I do not think it is fair to say that you forget keys, you do not forget your
child because hundreds of people a year go through this every year.
And, it is unfortunate and it is horrible, but this happens to people. And, they are torn up about it, but we cannot say how we would
react because we are not in that space. And, just as many people say that his behaviour was odd, you have people in the community saying that he was
a stand-up guy and he was an amazing guy.
PINSKY: Well, he was, but we heard Dr. Shirley say that was his narcissism and his borderline needs to be appealing to other people, hiding
behind the veil of his religiosity. Yasmin, your comment.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Yes. I have a -- there was an HLN senior producer who was actually in the courtroom that day and she told me the mother of Leeann
actually looked over at her and said why are not you showing more emotion? What is going on? She heard her say that. I mean that is telling more
than anything else.
PINSKY: Yes. It is telling and it is confusing. So much of this is confusing. How is this possible? And, we actually uncovered a video
online today. My production staff did. The producers did; apparently, posted by Justin. It is an 8-minute video of the ultra sound. It is
heartbreaking. The caption is, quote, "First video known as Cooper." It is the intrauterine ultrasound of this child.
Now, we have chosen to not show it out of sensitivity to the child. But you get a sense -- there is a point -- at which the ultrasound
technician froze the foot, moved the cursor over and wrote "foot" in there. And, you can imagine the parents, the enthusiasm they would have. And, I
believe these parents had that. They were like the rest of us. Where did it go? What happened?
Is this sex addiction took over? Is it pure depravity and the severe character pathologies though I think that would be present for a lot longer
than just more recent phenomena we are talking about here. It is confusing. But whatever it is, whatever the actuality, the facts are his
choices resulted in the death of his child.
And, his choices were it is more important to go get breakfast at Chick-fil-A. It is more important to rush to work. It is more important
to sext with all of these women than the well-being of my son. And, that is what I cannot get over.
Next up, I got bodies of newborns found in cardboard boxes. The mom accused of putting them there. And, now we have multiple theories. Now,
we got some facts. I will tell you why that happened. And, later, the viral video that has now led to a manhunt. Everybody, take a good look at
this guy. Find him. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mom who cops say confessed to killing six of her own babies. According to police, they have been strangled and wrapped in towels. Tiny
bodies discovered in cardboard boxes.
JENNY HUTT, HLN CO-HOST OF PINSKY: Perhaps she was hearing voices.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): I would not be surprised if perhaps some of these babies belonged to her daughters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): I am thinking mental illness, I am. Some sort of psychosis, some sort of delusions, or maybe postpartum
depression.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (3): Was she trying to get back at him. Was she punishing him by going through this in a ritualistic kind of way.
BARNETT: I think we are missing something very big. We have a drug charge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Drug addiction indeed. Back with Sam, Jillian, Vanessa and Yasmin. It is the story you are tweeting about most tonight. We were
trying to get our head around this when the story first broke. What would drive a mother to kill newborn babies and hide their little bodies in boxes
in her garage labelled Christmas?
Back in April, the panel had a lot of theories, but tonight we know that Vanessa had the focus in the right spot. Police say Megan Huntsman`s
methamphetamine addiction is what led directly to the murder of these babies and a still birth of the seventh. She told the officers, she said
specifically she had to choose between the drugs and the babies and she chose drugs. So, the question tonight is does addiction explain it all or
is something more sinister here? Yasmin?
VOSSOUGHIAN: You know, Dr. Drew, you know this best. You know addiction best, but I mean this is just an awful story. I feel like to a
certain extent addiction has to explain it all. I mean when you are being a meth head or a meth addict, you cannot think of anything else.
I have personally -- I am not an addict. I have never been an addict, thankfully, but I have seen people deal with addiction. I have
seen people deal with alcoholism, not necessarily meth, but it is all consuming. You cannot think of anything else. I cannot imagine that there
is something else here going on.
PINSKY: And, Vanessa, in spite of you hitting the nail on the head, you are not comfortable with this. I will get your reaction later. Let me
just say, Yasmin is on to something, which is that when you have addiction it is the sole priority in your life and everything else diminishes.
BARNET: I get that, and I have seen addiction first-hand in my family. But, at the end of the day, I have never heard of a story of
someone killing six babies because of their addiction. There has to be something else and we need to look into this farther too.
PINSKY: Yes. OK. That is interesting. Joining us, I got the Lieutenant Britt Smith in the Pleasant Grove Police Department. Officer,
thank you so much -- Lieutenant, thank you so much for joining us. She even hid these pregnancies from the three daughters who had lived with her.
How did she do that?
BRITT SMITH, LIEUTENANT AT PLEASANT GROVE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, that is the million dollar question, Dr. Drew. We would all like to know
how she did that. But you know, she has three surviving children and she hid those three pregnancies as well. So, it as not just the children that
ended up murdered that she hid those. She hid them all.
PINSKY: Does she have anything else to sort of explain the behavior? I have seen horrible behaviors from addiction. I am shaking my head at
this one.
SMITH: Yes. We all are shaking our heads because it is just so tragic. And\, it is so graphic.
PINSKY: Yes.
SMITH: And, it leaves everybody just in shock of how could anybody do this. And, I do not think there is any explanation that anybody could come
up with that could explain it away.
PINSKY: And, she does not used meth recently, is that correct?
SMITH: As far as we can tell, she quit using meth about 2006, right in that area.
PINSKY: That was when the husband got arrested and he was the supplier, right?
SMITH: That is correct.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, OK. Fascinating. Vanessa, you had a question?
BARNETT: I do. Has she said at all what if any reason there is that she did keep three of her children?
SMITH: It is an ongoing investigation and we have detectives that are actively following leads.
PINSKY: Got it. Got it.
SMITH: She has not been to court or arraign yet. This is still very fresh, and so I am going to have to preface all of my comments that we are
trying to protect the prosecution in this.
PINSKY: All right. I do not want to mess this case up. We will get back to you when you can talk to us about it when you had some facts. Sam,
what is that?
SCHACHER: Yes. Dr. Drew, listen. I have had a number of people that have suffered from addiction and I cannot imagine them killing babies.
PINSKY: Right.
SCHACHER: I just do not think that it is all. This woman is a serial killer.
PINSKY: OK. I want to hear from Jillian too. Jillian, what do you say?
BARBERIE: I completely agree with Sam. She kills babies.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARBERIE: And, regardless of addiction -- And, I am sorry, I know you will probably disagree because that is your specialty. I am very black and
white when it comes to crime. You do the crime, you do the time. I do not care if it was meth or you are crazy, or sociopath --
PINSKY: Jillian --
BARBERIE: -- The bottom line, there are six dead babies because of you.
PINSKY: That is exactly right. The time to get help with your addiction is before you are murdering yourself, or murdering other people,
having horrible consequences, ruining lives. You get help before that. You succumb to the treatment process. You do not succumb to the disease of
addiction.
Also, many people with addiction. I was trying to get Mike to call tonight because he has said frequently -- he goes as deep as he went into
addiction, he could never harmed somebody with his disease. He still had a moral compass even though it is faith, it was still there.
And, either, A, the disease have overcome her so profoundly or B she did not have a moral compass. There was something else going on here. We
are going to bring in the behavior bureau and find out what that might have been after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Let me float a theory. That the husband has been -- what? Was he convicted of sexual assault or had sexual charges?
SCHACHER: Yes. Rape and forcible --
PINSKY: He is a drug addict who manufactured meth. That is what was going on in this house as well. She thought it was a good idea to get
involved with that guy. That guy is in prison? How long he has been in prison for? Most of the eight years?
SCHACHER: Yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: What do you guys think? She has no source of income. She may be a drug addict. Her grown children flee the house hold and there is
a bunch of dead bib byes. Anybody think she might have been making a living creating babies?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and the Behavior Bureau, Shirley, Jennifer and Claudia. That was my theory a couple of months ago as we try to understand
why a mother drug addict would hide the bodies of seven newborn babies in her garage. It turns out, my theory wrong. The DNA of all the children
matched the husband. It turns the attention back a little more towards the husband, Jennifer, does not it? I worry about his role in all of this.
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I agree with you wholeheartedly. Dr. Drew, I have had four children. It is not easy to birth children. She had
full-term babies. Is there such a thing as being addicted to sex or addicted to having children? You understand what I am saying?
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: Because, I mean she kept doing it over and over and over again.
PINSKY: Yes. There is addiction to the state of pregnancy. There is an addiction to having children. But you do not kill them if you are
addicted to having them.
KEITT: But, see, if you are starting and then stopping and then with the meth addiction, there is this heightened libido --\
PINSKY: Yes. It can be.
KEITT: -- So, you are having sex all of the time and the energy surrounding that. And, then -- unfortunately it is like an oops and let me
do it again and oops and let me do it again.
PINSKY: Well, right. That is right.
KEITT: And, I think the husband had to know.
PINSKY: Yes. Of course, yes. Sam, do you agree with that?
SCHACHER: Yes. 100 percent. I cannot imagine how this father and the children who lived there through all seven pregnancies. A. Were not
aware of the pregnancy. B. Were not there coincidentally each time she birth the children. And, then finally, C. They never smell the decaying
bodies. They were just stored. The babies were just stored in boxes.
PINSKY: Well, not only that, Sam. But, Claudia the babies were born -- the surviving children were born amongst the dead babies.
CLAUDIA JORDAN, TELEVISION AND RADIO PERSONALITY: Right.
PINSKY: So, some made it through. That is why we were asking the lieutenant which one and why. It is hard -- I mean what is going on in
that house?
JORDAN: And, how did she pick and choose what baby she wants to let live. Once, again, another case, another tragic case. There are tons of
people out there who cannot conceive, who cannot have children. Then you have got the crack heads. You have got these crack heads. You got these
meth addicts. These sex addicts that are willing to kill their children. Out there -- able to conceive like nothing and just make babies, kill.
Make another one, kill. I will keep that one. That one is cute.
PINSKY: I got to say. You do make it sound pretty good. Be that as it may -- Shirley I was trying to understand how addiction could be the
whole story here. And, you know, people can become like encephalopathic where they do not know where they are. They are so addicted. This does
not seem like that. You cannot do that for decades -- for years and years as in this case. You say something else must have been going on. Like
what?
SHIRLEY IMPELLIZERI, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Absolutely. There is no way that it was just about drugs. Because otherwise she would not have the
wherewithal to clean up after herself. I mean she had seven births, coincidentally no one was home during the seventh births? I had one and it
was not a quiet event.
And, then there was a lot of blood. There is a lot of liquid. So, if she was so drugged out that she was having these kids, you know, she
knew enough to clean up after herself. I mean if you are really looking psych analytically, there is got to be something else going on. I am sure
that she has had very traumatic childhood. I mean she looks dead. No pun intended.
PINSKY: Yes.
IMPELLIZERI: You know? Like inside.
PINSKY: Emotionally dead.
IMPELLIZERI: So, I wonder if this is a way that she has compartmentalized her anger and taken it out on these kids.
PINSKY: It is just, again, listen -- I want to -- it is strange. How low have our parenting expectations come in this country. Really?
JORDAN: Thank you.
PINSKY: Honestly. Right? But, I feel like I need to take my hat off to all of the moms that do go through births and have done their job.
Jennifer, my wife, Shirley -- Hats off to you guys. It is a tough job, but we cannot imagine not doing it.
KEITT: Dr. Drew, just one quick question. Why cannot they use condoms? Why are we having all of this sex and we cannot do condoms or we
cannot do birth control. Please. Please.
PINSKY: Jennifer, from your mouth to God is ears. I have been chanting that cry for 30 years on the radio and television.
KEITT: Go to drugstore and get a condom please.
PINSKY: It is so easy and it is available. It is everywhere. It is not a problem. They may be pricey but you can head over to planned
parenthood, they will give them to you for free.
Next up, police are looking for this guy. I want you all to take a good look at him. He sucker punched that stranger and then runs off. I
want you to find him. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: It is called the knockout game.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A teacher walks toward a group of boys then seemingly out of nowhere, one of them violently knocks him to the
ground.
PINSKY: Walking by, sucker punch and then stroll away. Proud of themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: These are young people who have dead-end lives, no real goals or objectives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I feel it is a dumb game. Kids that have nothing bet tore do which is really sad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jillian, Vanessa and Yasmin. We talked about the so-called knockout game a few months ago. The question here now, are
we seeing a new case in New York City. Take a look at this released by the new york police department. A man is seen punching a stranger in the face
and running away. He fell to the ground. Hit his head on the pavement. He had a severe head injury. He was in critical condition. Thank God he
is in stable condition now. And, Sam there is even more of this story.
SCHACHER: This is what happened. So Paul Martone is walking his dog in New York City. The assailant walks over the dog to get to the sidewalk.
Paul Martone gets angry, he pushes him. The man punches him, as we see, runs away. Paul Martone hits his head as you said, Dr. Drew on the ground
and is hospitalized.
PINSKY: Listen, head injuries are no fun. They are not a minor issues. It is not like the cartoon or the three stooges when you are
whacked in the head and you shake it off and you can be altered for good. Vanessa, what do you see here?
BARNETT: First of all, I do not think this is knockout game at all.
PINSKY: No. No way. Yes.
BARNETT: Much, much different. And, secondly, I think we are missing something big here. The other guy pushed him first and you do not see that
in the video. And, so what I see is someone retaliating to be pushed initially albeit more stronger and much more forcefully and running away
like a punk because he thinks he is about to get in a fight --
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: -- And does not want to. I do not see a knockout game. It is unfortunately that he was hurt severely but I think he is retaliating
from the push.
PINSKY: I think, Jillian, I think more than anything, this is a cautionary tale of violence out in the world.
BARBERIE: You brought up, Dr. Drew, the fact that head injuries when you fall -- Brian Stow great example. He is not going to recover from the
head injuries. I agree with Vanessa. This is definitely not something engaged, they had a confrontation and it came to this. But, more
importantly does not it seem like everything is caught on tape these days, which is a great thing in many ways. We have a perfect shot of him.
SCHACHER: And, hopefully the viewers can help us find him.
PINSKY: Yasmin, last thoughts.
VOSSOUGHIAN: This actually happened to me in New York City.
PINSKY: What?
VOSSOUGHIAN: Yes. There was a woman walking on the inside of the sidewalk. She veered about t10 feet, punched me straight in the arm,
called me the B word and then kept walking. It is happened to me. I do not know what is wrong with these people but it happens. There are just
crazy people out there, Dr. Drew. You know that more than anybody else.
PINSKY: I know there is a lot of stuff going on out there. I would urge everyone -- do not retaliate. It is only going to escalate things.
It is no going to end well for anybody. The New York City police department can be very helpful.
Hey, listen, let`s be reasonable. Let`s be citizens. That is all I am saying here, buddy. All right. DVR us right now, you can watch us
anytime. And a reminder that the "Forensic Files" is next and begins right now.
END
