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CROSSFIRE

Israel Agrees to "Humanitarian Pause" in Fighting; GOP: Obama Cabinet Member Broke Law; 2016: Clinton Vs. Warren?

Aired July 16, 2014 - 18:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


S.E. CUPP, CO-HOST: Wolf, we have seen plenty of action on the Republican side for 2016. Now, some Democrats not named Clinton are getting into the act.

VAN JONES, CO-HOST: And one of those Democrats is going to produce enough excitement to make it seem like the second coming of Beatlemania.

The debate is going to right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight on CROSSFIRE, will it be Warren versus Clinton in 2016?

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We have to jump in and jump in now and make our own change. That's why I'm here.

ANNOUNCER: And will Iowa roll out the welcome mat for Governor Chris Christie?

On the left, Van Jones. On the right, S.E. Cupp.

In the CROSSFIRE: Bill Richardson, a former Democratic presidential candidate. And Tim Pawlenty, a former Republican presidential candidate.

Who has what it takes to win the White House? Plus, the outrage of the day

Tonight on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUPP: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

I'm S.E. Cupp on the right.

JONES: And I'm Van Jones on the left.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, we got two men who know what it takes to run for president.

This is an exciting time to be a Democrat. I was especially happy to see the crowd going wild today for my friend, Senator Elizabeth Warren. She was talking about an issue that is near and dear to my heart, income inequality. Check her out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Washington is a rigged game. Washington is a place that works for those who the money to hire armies of lobbyists and lawyers, but for everybody else, for regular people, for regular families, Washington doesn't work so well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: That's right. Amen, sister.

Now, listen, that was straight from the heart. That's why people are going crazy for her.

Now, listen to this, now here's Hillary Clinton, who I also love, trying to make a similar point about 12 hours earlier. Listen to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm worried that other people and particularly younger people are not going to have the same opportunities we did. We believed we could make our way up the ladder. And now, I think a lot of particularly young people who don't believe that anymore. And that bothers me a lot. So, I think we have to pay attention to what we're going to do.

JON STEWART, COMEDY CENTRAL: You know what's kind of awesome? It says to me that you're running for president. How easily you pivoted from that into income inequality in America.

CLINTON: Well --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: You know -- all right, you know, they are both talking about the same thing. But, you know, I just didn't feel fire from Hillary Clinton. The Democratic base needs to be inspired right now. Now, if Hillary Clinton forgets to fire up the base, you can bet that Elizabeth Warren is ready.

CUPP: I just -- I'm surprised a little bit, because Elizabeth Warren in that at least seemed to be indicting your boss. What's wrong with -- Washington doesn't work.

JONES: She's a firebrand. You got me.

(LAUGHTER)

CUPP: Sorry, Obama.

All right. In the CROSSFIRE, former New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, who ran for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, and former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, who ran for the 2012 Republican nomination.

Governor Richardson, I think Elizabeth Warren proves, the Democratic Party has changed a lot since Hillary Clinton was last in the White House and since she last ran for the White House. I have been saying for awhile now that her problem is going to be she doesn't speak progressive and she doesn't speak millennial. Are you concerned that Hillary Clinton might be able to connect if she runs?

BILL RICHARDSON (D), FORMER NEW MEXICO GOVERNOR: No, I think she's very strong. I have seen her with Democratic audiences. I have seen her latest stump speech. It's very strong.

But if you're contemplating a run against her, she is a centrist. So, somebody like Elizabeth Warren I don't think could beat her, but could mount a very strong campaign on this income inequality issue and especially in the early primaries. I mean, Tim and I know, Iowa anyway with the Democrats is far, far progressive. New Hampshire is far progressive.

But you get into the primaries in the West, Texas, the South, I think that's where somebody like Hillary Clinton would be very strong.

JONES: You've got progressives coming together at Netroots Nation from across the country. I mean, all 50 states, thousands of them, it's going to be Beatle mania for Elizabeth Warren. In fact, look at this t-shirt. I guess, there's going to be a thousand of these t- shirts at Netroots Nations.

Would you wear one of these? I'm from the Elizabeth Warren wing. Yes or no?

RICHARDSON: No.

JONES: You wouldn't?

RICHARDSON: I'm staying out. Let me tell you this, I've had differences with Secretary Clinton because I endorsed Obama. You guys already forgot. But anyway --

CUPP: I haven't forgotten. You said, "No, I'm not in the ready for Hillary camp," right? "I'm not in the suck up camp." I have it right here.

RICHARDSON: No, I'm not -- I'm not in the stuck up camp -- suck up camp. But I do recognize that she's formidable. She's going to be perceived as the first woman president. I think that she did a good job as secretary of state.

JONES: You sound hesitant. What's your hesitation?

RICHARDSON: My hesitation is we have political difference with her and her husband. I endorsed Obama, they haven't forgiven me. So be it.

CUPP: Well, speaking with the Democrats, who do you think could beat Hillary Clinton if not Elizabeth Warren? Or do you think that she could?

TIM PAWLENTY (R), FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: First of all, Van, Beatlemania? Really?

JONES: Yes.

PAWLENTY: Come on. Maybe Cars reunion? Maybe, you know, the Dave Clark. But Beatlemania?

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: A Cars reunion, I don't think that's a compliment.

PAWLENTY: I'll say this --

RICHARDSON: No, they had a lot of hits.

CUPP: I like the Cars. But there's a vast chasm between the Beatles and the Cars.

PAWLENTY: All right. So, here's -- well, I'm saying he's overstating it. That's the point.

CUPP: Oh, yes.

PAWLENTY: So, look, Hillary was supposed to be invincible last time. She wasn't for a reason. Somebody from the left outflanked her. Somebody more dynamic, somebody more comfortable in the way he presented information named Barack Obama, came up and up-ended the invincible candidate. She's come out with a book tour, looks frankly a little uncomfortable.

Elizabeth Warren -- setting aside some policy differences with her -- dynamic, comfortable in terms of how she presents, speaks to millennials, has a passion, has a way to present. That is very different and I think probably more capable than Hillary Clinton. But she's not going to run is the problem, according to her.

JONES: Well, you know, anything can happen. But, you know, in some ways Hillary -- Elizabeth Warren, she isn't gunning for Hillary Clinton, she's gunning for you. I mean, you're really associated now with Wall Street. You have been a champion for Wall Street. She's gunning for Wall Street.

Are you concerned that somebody like her catches fire and puts you in the crosshairs?

CUPP: Comes after you.

PAWLENTY: My group represents financial service companies all over the country. Not just New York, but all over the country.

But, you know, there's an issue around income inequality. We should have a very serious discussion about it. But keep in mind -- things like education inequality are one of the root causes of income inequality. So, as we have that demand, let's not just throw a label on it and not get under the hood.

JONES: Let push it one more thing.

PAWLENTY: Yes, yes.

JONES: You are close to, you said, financial services. We would say Wall Street. Do you think they are more in favor of a Hillary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren? Would you be more for Elizabeth Warren or Hillary Clinton as president of the United States?

PAWLENTY: They don't -- they haven't taken sides in any of this.

CUPP: Of course, they have. Hillary is giving speeches to Goldman Sachs. Of course, they have. Why wouldn't they want Hillary Clinton over --

PAWLENTY: Well, if you took a poll, if you took a poll of financial service companies, you'd probably have a split. Some are Republican, some are Democrat, some would be with Clinton.

CUPP: None would be with Elizabeth Warren.

(LAUGHTER)

PAWLENTY: Probably not many with Elizabeth Warren.

CUPP: Well, Governor Richardson, while we're all talking about Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton, there's another Democrat who is contemplating a run. That's Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley. He made some news on immigration today.

But I'm actually more interested in the way he seems to be framing his non-campaign campaign. One reporter called it compassionate competence. I'm wondering if you think that Democrats who are thinking about running for president are now going to try to draw distinctions between competence and the incompetence of President Obama's administration?

RICHARDSON: Look, I think what a lot of Democrats are going to be doing are testing the waters, especially if Secretary Clinton doesn't run. You know, Vice President Biden, O'Malley.

O'Malley was a good governor. He's still a good governor. He's right, I believe, on the same-sex marriage issue, on immigration, on economic issues. He's testing the waters.

And many others will test the waters, but I think the big, big question mark is will Hillary Clinton run? I don't think it's a question mark, I think it's 150 percent that she will run.

CUPP: Yes.

RICHARDSON: So, you know, she's formidable. Now again, it's too early though. I mean, we should be worried as a Democrat about 2014. I want to keep the Senate. I'm worried about the Senate. I want --

CUPP: I think you should be.

RICHARDSON: Well, I think we're going to keep it, but it's going to be very narrow. We should forget this 2016 talk and --

(CROSSTALK)

CUPP: But it's so much fun.

RICHARDSON: -- as a Democrat.

CUPP: All right. Well, I'm sick of talking about Democrats. Next, we'll move on to the real winners, the Republicans.

But, first today's CROSSFIRE quiz: who was the last president to hail from New Jersey? Grover Cleveland, Woodrow Wilson or Warren Harding? We'll have the answer when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUPP: Welcome back.

Now, the answer to our CROSSFIRE quiz: Woodrow Wilson is the last president from New Jersey.

OK, after a lengthy derailment, a leaner, not necessarily meaner, Chris Christie is back in the saddle on his way to Iowa and New Hampshire in what certainly looks like a move back toward a 2016 presidential run. Yes, bridgegate set him back but as scandals go, the guy currently occupying the White House has him beat like 20 to one. Next to President Obama, Chris Christie looks like he's got his stuff together.

In the CROSSFIRE tonight, former presidential candidates Bill Richardson and Tim Pawlenty.

Governor Richardson, Chris Christie is direct. He's relatable, he's a real person. For all the talk amongst Democrats of Rand Paul's extremism and Ted Cruz's extremism, are you concerned that Chris Christie actually has that crossover appeal to win Democrats and independents?

RICHARDSON: Yes, I wouldn't dismiss Chris Christie because, again, Tim and I had the experience in the early primaries, the activists show up. I think that Chris Christie is still a viable candidate. I think this bridgegate scandal is going to hurt him because he's going to be attacked by that.

JONES: Well --

RICHARDSON: But in the end, he's a great talker.

CUPP: Right.

RICHARDSON: But I think he's -- the whole Republican Party is going to have problems in a general election. The problem is they're not like Governor Pawlenty who is a moderate. He's going to hate me for saying that.

CUPP: He just called you the "M" word.

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: Let me get you on the record because you do have a different style from Mr. Christie. Somebody said he has appeal. Is this appealing? Let's hear from Mr. Christie, Governor Christie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRSITIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Did I stay on topic? Are you stupid? On topic, on topic. Next question.

You have numb nuts like Reed Gusciora.

Get the hell off the beach.

Hey, Gail, you know what? First off, it's none of your business. I don't ask you where you send your kids to school, don't bother me about where I send mine.

Thank you all very much. And I'm sorry for the idiot over there.

You know what? It's people who raised their voices and yell and scream like you that are dividing this country.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

CUPP: I'm sorry, numb nuts, numb nuts gets me every time. It's so funny!

JONES: This is allegedly appealing. Now, you know what it takes to win in the primaries. Does this play in Iowa?

PAWLENTY: Well, I think people want a bold talker. But more importantly, look, if you're going to beat Hillary Clinton, notwithstanding what was said earlier, Elizabeth Warren isn't going to run. She's going to be formidable. You're going to need a larger than life person and personality, no pun intended. That's what he is.

JONES: Tough question for you. Tough question for you. What is his base in the party? Chris Christie, as best I can tell, has a base called reporters in New York and the Acela corridor.

Ted Cruz has a real base.

(CROSSTALK)

PAWLENTY: Van, look at this, look at this. Look at the last nominees of our party. John McCain, Mitt Romney. You know, very capable people with impressive records, but they didn't align completely ahead of time with the base of the party.

CUPP: But that doesn't work out very well, Governor Pawlenty.

PAWLENTY: Well, they got the nomination. So, at least --

CUPP: But it didn't work out well in the end.

PAWLENTY: Ultimately. Ultimately.

RICHARDSON: I think, Tim, the problem is the Tea Party still controls your party. And the Tea Party is going to be anathema in the general election.

PAWLENTY: I want to add one other thing, though. The --

RICHARDSON: Look, I'm not an expert on the Republican Party. But I can say to you that on immigration, I think you've lost the Hispanic vote. I'm talking about the Republican Party in 2016. I think on the health care issue, this issue of Affordable Care Act is starting to work in the right direction. But again, I just think that --

JONES: Wait a second. What do you say that?

RICHARDSON: It's not like you.

PAWLENTY: You're going to have to have somebody -- you're nice to say. But on health care, I think we're actually doing pretty well.

RICHARDSON: Why don't you say something nice about me?

JONES: Answer the question.

PAWLENTY: You're going to need somebody to win the election and be the nominee who can straddle both parts of the party, kind of the establishment wing of the party, and I would call not really so much the Tea Party anymore, but the libertarian wing the party, the Rand Paul.

CUPP: So, who does that? Who does that?

PAWLENTY: So, you're going to need somebody like Scott Walker, like Marco Rubio, and others who might run. But somebody who can have one foot in both camps comfortably, because if they're just libertarian or just establishment --

CUPP: They miss out.

PAWLENTY: -- that's probably not going to cut it.

JONES: Do you think Marco Rubio has been count out too early?

PAWLENTY: I think so, Van. I don't even say he's been counted out, but I think he's going to be a stronger possible candidate people --

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: Well, stay here. We want you to weigh in on the Fireback question. Back to the Democrats, could Elizabeth Warren beat Hillary Clinton if a Democratic primary? I want you to tweet yes or no using #Crossfire. We'll give you those results after the break. See you when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JONES: Welcome back.

Now, let's check our Fireback results. Going to the Netroots Nation is the big thing. Could Elizabeth warren defeat Hillary Clinton in a Democratic primary right now? Right now, 52 percent of you say yes, 48 percent of you say no.

CUPP: Uh-oh.

JONES: What do you think about them apples?

RICHARDSON: I think they're wrong. I think Hillary would win, but her biggest enemy, Hillary, would be the inevitability factor. So, I hope she has some opposition. It can't be a coronation.

JONES: She can lose. Hillary Clinton could lose.

RICHARDSON: I doubt it. But anything can happen in politics, but I think she's got a steamroller going.

JONES: Tell me why you aren't sitting here saying Hillary Clinton is going to win. What is your reservation? What could take her down? Not just inevitability, what is a combination that could stop her?

RICHARDSON: Like I said, if it appears that it's a free ride, that there's no competition, that she takes it for granted.

CUPP: OK. Well, we'll see. Thanks to Bill Richardson and Tim Pawlenty. Not only does the debate continue online, as well as on Facebook and Twitter. You can check out my outrage on CNN.com/Crossfire. From the right, I'm S.E. Cupp.

JONES: And from the left, I'm Van Jones.

Join us tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.