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Dr. Drew
Did High-end Call Girl Kill Executive?; Mommy Blogger Poisons Kid?; The Killer Next Door: Jared Remy
Aired July 16, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, she is described as a high end (AUDIO GAP) a Google executive on a sugar daddy Web site. But did
she shoot him up with heroin and kill him?
Plus, the killer next door --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That night, Jen had a knife in her hand and threatened me with my daughter. So, I killed her.
PINSKY: A witness to her good friend`s murder is here with me.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host is Sam Schacher.
And coming up, a woman is accused of killing her own child by salt overdose. Is she mentally ill or just a terrible mother?
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: And we have new details in the salt mom case, what her friends say will surprise you.
PINSKY: I can`t wait.
But, first, we have new details about the alleged prostitute accused of killing a Google executive with heroin. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, we start with a primer --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman who gave makeup tips on YouTube charged in the death of Google executive Forrest Hayes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She, the prostitute, he, the client.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surveillance camera showed Tichelman doing absolutely nothing absolutely nothing to help the distress Hayes after injecting him
with the heroin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no intent to harm or injure, much less kill Mr. Hayes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And at one point stepped by the body to grab a glass of wine and finish the glass of wine.
UNDENTIFIED MALE: Tichelman met Hayes through the Web site seekingarrangement.com.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say she used the Web site to meet her clients.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two adults who are engaged in mutual, consensual drug usage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One woman linked to two heroin overdoses in two states within two months.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tichelman`s then-boyfriend Dean Riopelle also died of a heroin overdose.
ALIX TICHELMAN: I think my boyfriend overdosed or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was ruled accidental, but authorities are reopening the investigation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Overdosed or something. He slams heroin and then stops breathing. I don`t understand. Now, what`s the connection there?
Joining us: Vanessa Barnett, social commentator, host of HipHollywood.com, Michelle Fields, correspondent for "PJ Media", and Adriana Costa,
entertainment journalist.
Vanessa, do you think she meant to kill him?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: You know what? No, I don`t. I, honestly, I blame this guy.
I know it sounds horrible to blame the victim but when you`re married, you have five kids and you choose to sleep with a prostitute and then do drugs
with said prostitute, bad things are going to happen. He killed himself. Anytime you do drugs, you run the risk of dying.
PINSKY: Suddenly, Michelle, I feel like Vanessa has a point. I was feeling pretty bad when she started, yes, it`s easy to get mad at a guy
with five kids shooting heroin and hanging out with a prostitute.
MICHELLE FIELDS, PJ MEDIA: Yes. I mean, he consented to this. It wasn`t as if she forced the heroin in him. I mean, she did it and then the video
shows him wanting it as well. So, he consented to this. I think they`re both two idiots who made bad decisions and, unfortunately, this happened.
Yes, should she have called 911? Of course. But I don`t think she intentionally tried to murder him.
PINSKY: Now, here`s what the lawyers said earlier today. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a lucrative source of income to her. She appreciated his generosity. And she had a motive, if any, to elongate, not
end the relationship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Adriana, I don`t know. I`m a little uncomfortable with that. No, she wouldn`t want to kill the guy because she kept paying for her
prostitution services
ADRIANNA COSTA, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Right. No, no, she wants more money from him.
But isn`t it motive enough that maybe this is a girl who doesn`t want men, want to seek revenge on men who maybe didn`t treat her well?
PINSKY: OK. Adrianna, slow down now.
FIELDS: There`s no evidence of that.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Michelle -- Sam, she is on to something. I`m going the talk about that.
Vanessa, you`re laughing at me. But listen --
BARNETT: It`s funny.
PINSKY: It`s not funny, because people that I`ll describe with the behavior -- I need the backup of my behavior bureau to really defend
myself. But she`s Adrianna is on to something, that covertly, there may be a real anger towards these guys that she`s colluding with and exploding.
FIELDS: There`s no evidence in that.
PINSKY: What`s the evidence?
FIELDS: There`s no evidence. The evidence that we have is she has an economic incentive to create this relationship and keep this relationship
because she wants money. That`s why she initially went on the website to find that guy. It`s not because she a hated men. She wanted a man who had
money. So --
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: He wanted to give the money out. It was a sugar daddy site. Like that is pimps and prostitute 101. You give a little, you get a
little.
This is crazy. There`s no revenge against men. You`re doing drugs. You die.
PINSKY: All right. Sam, I have you listen to this 911 call. This is when she was dating another guy, a heroin addict who overdosed. This other
case, however, she calls 911. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Why do you think it`s an overdose?
TICHELMAN: Because there`s nothing else it could be.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Accidental or intentional?
TICHELMAN: I think definitely accidental, accidental.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what did he take?
TICHELMAN: I`m not too sure. Painkillers, like painkillers. He`s been drinking a too.
911 OPERATOR: OK, his painkillers, was that his prescribed painkillers?
TICHELMAN: Oh, I don`t know. You`re asking the wrong person.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: See, Michelle called them, what did you see, idiots, Michelle, or dummy? What did you call them?
FIELDS: Yes, they are.
PINSKY: Idiots.
(AUDIO GAP)
PINSKY: Sam, I call them sick.
COSTA: Hot mess, Dr. Drew.
SCHACHER: Yes, I do too.
FIELDS: He has five kids and a wife at home, while she`s sitting on a boat with a prostitute injecting heroin.
PINSKY: That`s sick. Sam?
COSTA: Dr. Drew, you got to look at her history with what she`s been posting on Facebook, like it doesn`t seem maybe sinister at first glance
but it is. I mean, this is a girl who went on Facebook and posted about Dexter, that he`s a lovable serial killer --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: Can I get a word in here?
PINSKY: Whoop, slow up. I`m going to pick Sam. Sam --
SCHACHER: Thank you. I think Dexter is a lovable serial killer, too. I love me some Dexter, OK?
PINSKY: OK. So, hold on. Sam, hold on.
So, Vanessa, Sam is going to be here the rest of the hour, but when you get out of your --
SCHACHER: Beware.
PINSKY: Because I got somebody in the studio that I`m a little concern about.
SCHACHER: All right. I think this story is so bizarre on so many levels. For one, it`s in my hometown of Santa Cruz. And Santa Cruz doesn`t really
make national headlines unless it`s about surfing or great white sharks.
And number two, I`m with you, Michelle. I think the very fact that her -- there is no motive, because he was a very lucrative client of hers. So,
she would essentially be killing her paycheck. But, Dr. Drew, perhaps you can answer this, because she did not call 911. So, she was there after he
overdosed.
So, when somebody overdosed on heroin, do they show signs of distress?
PINSKY: No.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: She knows what an overdose looks like. She had her boyfriend died of an overdose. She knows.
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: She`s high too. I don`t know many high people that are like, let me call the cops. He drank the wine and she left. She`s high.
PINSKY: You know what? We could distill this down to drug addict behavior.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: This is opiate addiction. It kills people. It`s much more likely to kill you than the vast majority of cancers. People get that through
your head whether you`re taking the pills by mouth or shooting the heroin, it`s all a deadly process and it is killing people hand over fist.
In this case, we`re talking about this woman, though, who was a prostitute. This guy that had a family and the fact that she callously sort of stepped
other his body when he had overdosed, and she knew what that meant. You`re right, Vanessa, she`s high but she had seen somebody die of a heroin
overdose before and you got to wonder what was going on there.
Next up, more disturbing posts from Alix on Facebook. Behavior bureau is here to back me up.
And later, the killer next door. A woman who witnessed the murder of her friend next door is here with me, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sick of the lies and all of the pain you have given me. Wrapped up in a bow like I thought it was supposed to be. But now
you`re laying in a box waiting to suffocate, saving your last breath as you scratch at your coffin case. I know I`m crazy, but vengeance is mine. The
dirt that pours in your mouth, into your eyes, never thought I would see you so surprised. Because I`m watching what above as you choke on the
dirt, bury the lies and the memories, because all you`ve done is hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam. There you go, everybody. She`s, you know, no evidence of any -- sort of motivation to do any wrong? We looked at Alix
Tichelman`s social profile. That was a reenactment of something she posted to Facebook, a couple of years ago.
Sam, bring in the behavior bureau: Erica America, psychotherapist, Z100 Radio personality, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor of Pepperdine
University, and Shirley Impellizzeri, clinical psychologist.
Judy, now, a lot of us have worked with these types, these people that have character disturbances. They have a long history of making bad choices in
their life and addiction.
Adriana made a point that last block that perhaps behind that was a hatred for the men that were -- that she was exploiting. What do you say to that?
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Sure. I can go with that. I think that might be a cause here. But I don`t think it`s enough to explain how
callous she`s been. I know that you just read some dark poetry that she wrote. But that was from a couple of years ago.
PINSKY: Oh, people change. People change, Judy -- who wrote stuff like that back in high school, I bet. Come on now.
HO: Yes, you know? I mean, we all do that from time to time, think that we`re dark, put on some goatee make up. So what? I think that we are
actually not looking at the Google exec`s behaviors enough.
I mean, Dr. Drew, he`s clearly an addict, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And this shows how far addicts will go.
PINSKY: Sex and opiates, both, yes.
HO: Exactly. So, this shows how far addicts will go and he actually does fit the profile of a lot of addicts who have to exert so much self control
in their professional life. So, they want to let it go. They want to abandon all care. They want to escape from their life.
And then, they go so far as to associate with these people just to get the drugs.
PINSKY: Well, but, Erica, I bet he was losing grip on his professional grip as well. Somebody that`s this far gone, they`re starting to lose
everything, don`t you think?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO: Yes. No, no, absolutely. But I`m going to put the focus on the girl.
I`m sort of this is where I`m at OK? I`m at, is this just high risk drug behavior like you guys are all saying or something far more serious going
on here, a personality disorder.
PINSKY: Don`t you think for sure? For sure.
AMERICA: Definitely. And on Facebook, I think -- this is my problem, I don`t think it`s enough evidence per se. It shows that she`s mood labile.
It shows that she was addicted. That she had, you know, definitely all sorts of personality issues.
But is there enough to say she did this on purpose? That`s why I would want a logical evaluation if possible.
PINSKY: But, hold on, Sam, just to explain what Erica just said, was talking about, is that I want the average person to kind of understand
this. Remember Jodi Arias? Us -- the three -- all of us, same people used to discuss the fact that she had a borderline personality disorder and that
could lead to some, like you said, Erica, emotional ability and some unregulated aggression.
AMERICA: She looks like a borderline personality, the changing of the hair and makeup.
PINSKY: Yes, she does, that`s right. And we`re suspecting, Sam, that even she may be beyond that in the sociopathy where she doesn`t care about
people expect to exploit them.
SCHACHER: I just don`t buy it, Dr. Drew. I don`t think that this woman intentionally murdered her very lucrative client, and then her ex-
boyfriend. People are speculating perhaps there`s a pattern. Her ex- boyfriend gave her a very luxurious lifestyle. I don`t think she would want that to end. It just doesn`t add up to me.
PINSKY: Erica?
AMERICA: If she`s a sociopath, the money doesn`t matter. She`s getting some kind -- she`s like a serial killer. She`s getting pleasure out of
killing them and hurting them. I`m not saying that`s what it is, but that`s what it could be.
PINSKY: Shirley, we`re going to show you opinion first, before I show something. Go ahead.
SHIRLEY IMPELLIZZERI, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I`m dying to get an opinion.
PINSKY: Yes?
IMPELLIZZERI: I think this poem is written directly to her father. I think what we`re absolutely looking at some anger issues that come from way
back.
PINSKY: I agree.
IMPELLIZZERI: I don`t think she cares about the money. She knows how to wrap men around her little finger. She knows how to get money from men.
That`s the least of her problems.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree. That aggression -- or may not have been her father, maybe have been an abuser, some male abuser who represents all men to her.
Now, we`re getting kind of heady here. I want to focus in on something else that really bothered me her. She used the site
seekingarrangements.com to meet men. I went head to head with the founder two years ago. I was very concerned about this side. I didn`t like what
this guy was saying. Look what I said to him then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I introduced you to some of the women that were using the site, they were trauma survivors, they were sex addicts, they were impaired.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we`re taking a tougher stance on our Web sites to weed out the unwanted characters. The majority of the members who use
our Web sits actually don`t have issues. They are women who have high self confidence. Over 80 percent of the women who use the Web site are
educated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HO: Oh gosh.
SCHACHER: Wow.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Good job, good job of weeding out the people that shouldn`t be using your site. You don`t care. You just there making a ton of dough.
You don`t care.
Judy, your reaction to this. Go ahead.
HO: Yes, Dr. Drew, I`m so glad you told him what`s has what two years ago. And he still continued to this and foster --
PINSKY: And people are dead now. Why aren`t we looking at that guy? There`s dead people because of that site.
HO: Exactly. And I think right now, you know, he might be feeling bad finally because of the backlash. But, you know, how many other case is do
we not know about because they`re lower profile? You know, we don`t even know how far this go.
So, I`m so glad that you talk to them two years ago. But, clearly, it did not change his way.
PINSKY: Shirley, what do you say?
IMPELLIZZERI: Well, you know, I mean, for him -- it`s all about money. People like that, when you think about putting up a site like that, of that
type, you don`t really care. I mean, it`s all about money. I hate to say that, I don`t know him. But who would put up a site like that?
PINSKY: Let me be clear, he`s been accused of nothing and I`m speaking hyperbolically. It made me angry a long time ago, that he had seem to be,
just did not care, that the people I had met, who used that site, and I can say this because I met them, they were very similar to this woman in that
they were trauma survivors, they have been sexually abused, they were people going out and exploiting men in the way that woman did because of
their horrible, horrible traumas that they had had in childhood. Yes, it`s awful.
Now, a former roommate who lived with Alix back in 2010 said something to CNN, I want to take a look at. Go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She clearly was like way gone in her addiction.
REPORTER: Did she tell you why she did it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the money. Lots of money. And she said, I asked her if she had to slept them because I was curious and she said she never
did but that`s what they all say.
PINSKY: Erica, what do you think?
AMERICA: Yes. No. I mean -- what are you asking me exactly? I -- what are you asking me?
PINSKY: Whether you think that the fact that people who are traumatized are going to go out and be exploited like that and drug addicts can do
whatever they have to do to get money and to continue this behavior. It`s just something that just -- it`s rocket fuel to all of this.
AMERICA: No, no, it is, it is. But what you`re saying about trying to get the guy to shut down the site, I just feel like there`s also people who run
porn companies and who are --
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Judy is reacting to that.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on, that`s little different. Judy, go ahead.
HO: Here`s the problem, Dr. Drew, and I think you just touched on it, is that these women then will become more and more re-traumatized through
these experiences. And you know what --
PINSKY: But, Judy, stop. That`s when they become enraged. They`re not being aware, they`re being re-traumatized. And that`s -- and Shirley is
nodding her head -- that`s when some of the aggressive behavior emerges. That may have been -- that`s Jodi Arias did that kind of thing
HO: That`s right. They start to build this story in their head, that it is everybody else`s fault and they need to get rid of everybody else who is
the problem. But we`re not doing anything to help these people psychologically, are we?
PINSKY: No.
Shirley?
IMPELLIZZERI: I don`t think it`s anything to do with it, they`re blaming other people. I think the anger stems from way back when that they haven`t
worked through, haven`t held it and it`s just growing and growing. You know?
PINSKY: Yes, I agree. Sam, the four of us professionals spun pretty good here. Does it make sense to average person?
SCHACHER: It does. But at the same token, Dr. Drew, I think we`re making too much of this. I think this woman was -- she thought he was nodding
off. Maybe she thought that he passed out and she bailed out of there. As far as her ex goes, when you surround yourself with users, there`s a high
probability that they`re going to overdose. I think u eats common that people within her inner circle are going to be subject to that.
PINSKY: Listen, if Michelle Fields were here, I think she would agree that drug addicts need to be held accountable for their own behavior a little
bit. So, there`s always that piece of this, too.
I have a statement from Seeking Arrangements. It says, quote, "Seeking Arrangement is no way or form a prostitution or escorting service." The
spokesman says, instead, calling it a dating Web site, quote, "We provide a quality platform for successful individuals, as well as those looking to
date a generous partner who`s willing to help better their lifestyle", unquote.
Can you tell me, can I invite -- yes, Mr. Brandon Wade, you`re well come to come back and defend the site. It`s now been two years since I talked to
you. And I would be happy to talk you again. You`re more than welcome to join us.
Next up, new developments in the case of a mom accused of killing her little boy by a salt overdose. Is this mental illness or is this evil?
Later, a killer next door. A friend who tried to stop an attack while he was killing her friend.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Salt mom. She is the 26-year-old mommy blogger accused of having murdered her five-year-old son. She did so by pumping large amounts of
salt -- sodium chloride dissolved in water probably, through the child`s feeding tube.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believe she medically tortured her son for years.
AMERICA: If this is Munchausen by proxy, she`s getting the attention, the sympathy. She didn`t want him to die because then it`s over.
SCHACHER: What are you saying, she has a mental illness? I think this s someone incredibly selfish and wants to do anything she can to get
attention.
PINSKY: The point is she had lots of social media attention and that is a pseudo intimacy that will not serve as a supportive network.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Michelle and Adriana.
The mom dubbed the "Salt Mom" was a no show in court today. The attorney for Lacey Spears has asked us to not to rush to judgment about her guilt in
the poisoning death of her son. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We continue to trust that people will keep an open mind and not judge Lacey. The truth of the matter is that Lacey has pleaded not
guilty and with the support of her family looks forward to her day in court and the opportunity to challenge the allegations and contest the charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Michelle, viewers want to know is this just another case of a parent, I use that in quotes, who want a child free life like the hot car
dad?
FIELDS: No. I think this is a woman who is incredibly selfish and wanted a ton of attention. She knew what she was doing was wrong, the fact that
she called someone to have them get rid of the evidence, the fact that she researched this to find out how salt affected her child`s body.
She knew what he was doing. I know you guys are going to say she has some mental illness. Look, even if she does, she does not deserve the
opportunity to be rehabilitated. The woman needs to be locked up, thrown in jail and just disappear.
PINSKY: Sam, you`re very skeptical about any diagnostic elements in this case. And I do -- I actually agree with what Michelle saying, which is,
who cares whether she had a symptom or not. I mean, she went too far, she killed -- may have contributed to the death of someone. There needs to be
consequences.
SCHACHER: Yes, this woman is disgusting. She`s evil. She`s selfish. I mean, she went so far besides this. She used to tell everybody, including
her son, that her husband, his father was dead. She denied her son the right to ever meet his father when he was alive and well just so she could
garner sympathy from him and her community.
And I think Michelle is right. Why would an innocent person call up her neighbor and say, oh, please dispose of this evidence in my garage if she
had nothing to hide?
PINSKY: Adriana?
COSTA: Yes, Dr. Drew, at a certain point, if a community, neighbors, family members see this going on or that the mother seems unfit, I think
it`s our responsibility to step in and report the woman. The fact that nobody at the hospital noticed what was going on. They launched an
investigation before the child died to see if the mom was doing anything wrong. They didn`t come up with anything. It is baffling.
Pinsky: These are hard things to detect. These people can be very, very cunning with what they`re doing here.
Vanessa, what`s your opinion.
BARNETT: I disagree. I`m sorry, Dr. Drew, I don`t think attention seeking and I think selfishness and I don`t think a thousand trips to the hospital
for this poor young boy is hard to detect. I feel like balls were dropped and I`m almost angry that there`s even a title for her symptoms, Munchausen
by proxy
No, it`s just clear selfishness. I want attention. I want to make my child so sick so people love me. There`s no condition, that`s no mental
illness. That`s her being really messed up. I`m so angry that there`s a title to almost kind of give her some kind of sympathy.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes, what if we said Munchausen by proxy is a syndrome where people are really messed up and they hurt their kids in an attempt to get
attention.
COSTA: It doesn`t matter.
PINSKY: That`s the patter. I`m just saying, that`s what it is. You describe to using different words, but that`s what it is.
BARNETT: But I think when we put a title on it`s like we`ve diagnosed it and there`s a problem.
PINSKY: Listen, that`s a pattern and we understand what the pattern is and means pit it doesn`t mean we shouldn`t have legal consequences and people
shouldn`t be punished, engaged in this behavior. It`s just that if we can get that earlier before they harm somebody, we can change the direction.
BARNETT: But they had the opportunity and they didn`t. How many times did this little boy need to be in the hospital for someone to step up and say
stop, this is something wrong?
PINSKY: Somebody missed it for sure.
Michelle?
FIELDS: Look, when you put this title on it you`re making it seem as though this is some sort of disease and not a choice.
PINSKY: No.
FIELDS: It is a choice. In the last segment, you compared alcoholism, drug addiction to cancer. There is a clear distinction when you have --
PINSKY: What?
FIELDS: -- who tries drugs and does drugs, they do that by choice. You don`t go and get cancer by choice.
PINSKY: Yes, you don`t smoke cigarettes and get lung cancer. That never happens. That never happens. Yes, you`re right.
FIELDS: There are a lot of people who have lung cancer who have never smoked cigarettes and for you to try to say that cancer is --
PINSKY: A lot of people get addicted to drugs because a doctor starts them on medication. That`s how people get addicted. They didn`t choose it to
happen.
FIELDS: What we were discussing was not like that. It was not like that. It was not like that --
PINSKY: How do you know? I don`t know how it started for them. I don`t know how -- people get to heroin today by pills. They start with pills and
then they cut off the pills and then they go to heroin. That`s what happens these days. That`s how people get to heroin.
FIELDS: It`s their choice to go to heroin.
PINSKY: No. It`s their disease. Then they`re sick.
We could argue all day about this. Got to stop.
Next up, the mother and the child were seen, of course, like Vanessa said, by dozens of doctors. Why didn`t medical professionals catch this? That`s
what we`re asking ourselves.
And later, face to face with a killer, meet the woman who tried to stop a fatal attack on her friend, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A mother is accused of injecting a lethal dose of salt into her son`s feeding tube, causing his death. Was it all for
attention?
SCHACHER: This is a mother who was bringing her child to the hospital almost his entire life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Factious illness where you could be phony and have make believe symptoms to confuse the doctors, or real symptoms and signs, but
they`re fabricated.
SCHACHER: She used her Twitter and Facebook accounts like journal entries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please pray for my little prince. He has another bad ear infection. Poor baby boy.
BARNETT: When you`re on Facebook and getting all to have these likes and you`re on Instagram and you`re getting all these likes and friends and
followers, it`s feeding this disease.
(END VIDEO CLIIP)
PINSKY: Oh, Vanessa, calling it a disease there, interesting. Back with Sam, the behavior bureau, Erica, Judy, and Shirley We`re talking about the
woman accused of killing her son by adding a lethal dose of sodium to his feeding tube.
Viewers say -- they understand or have sympathy for Munchausen syndrome, which is a syndrom where you hurt yourself --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a mental illness.
PINSKY: Right, I understand. But they seem to understand that. You hurt yourself to get attention or you fabricate to get attention. But they seem
to have a more difficult understanding of Munchausen by proxy, where a parent hurts a child.
Let me define what this thing is. It`s about inducing or producing symptoms or lying about illness of another person under their care. It
often occurs in mothers. Victims are typically under six, children under six, typical. They often lie about symptoms, alter tests and records, and
they can often induce symptoms by poisoning, starving, causing infection.
Sound familiar here? One of the common questions on our Facebook page is why didn`t the medical professionals recognize this illness? There`s a
piece that`s often -- that causes it to be missed. Because they move around a lot.
SCHACHER: And she did.
PINSKY: That`s right, Sam. In this case, she moved from Alabama to Florida to Kentucky and New York. But even if she did stay in one place,
Judy, it can be tough to diagnose this, can`t it?
HO: Absolutely. This is one of the biggest mysteries. And when you try to prosecute somebody based on Munchausen`s, it`s usually not successful,
because it`s very hard to prove sometimes even for a psychologist. If you think about medical professionals, unless they had a psychiatrist on staff
or somebody who`s well-versed in these different types of illnesses, they`re just trying the treat the child and make sure the child`s going to
be OK.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s right. And by the way, they can become threatening too. They can start threatening lawsuits and what. And if you`re a
medical professional, you`re struggling to make sense of things.
Erica, what do you say?
AMERICA: Yes, this is a tough mental illness and that`s definitely what it is. I`m sorry, some of the people saying things that just are really.
really ridiculous.
PINSKY: Who? Give me an example.
AMERICA: No.
PINSKY: Michelle Fields, could she be one of the people?
SCHACHER: I`m one of them.
PINSKY: Well, Sam is one of them. Take her on.
AMERICA: Listen. This woman is very sick with a mental illness. Doesn`t mean she shouldn`t be prosecuted for what she did. Absolutely not. But
she didn`t -- you guys are trying to say that she chose what she did because she`s selfish and this and that. You don`t know what you`re
talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: But she was aware for years.
AMERICA: It`s an illness.
SCHACHER: But she was aware of this.
AMERICA: It doesn`t matter. She`s sick. And this is one of the toughest mental illnesses to treat because there`s so much denial
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: And then she`s trying to clean it up.
AMERICA: She`s in denial of what she`s doing. I guarantee you she`s still in denial. Even though she partly tried to cover it up --
SCHACHER: She did try to cover it up.
AMERICA: -- she still did not fully know what she was doing.
SCHACHER: She tortured her son for years and then tried to cover it up. And I love the fact she`s just a no-show in court. Who she does she think
she is?
AMERICA: In her own mind, she still does not understand the gravity of what she`s doing, which is why it`s really possible to get these people
better.
PINSKY: She wasn`t required to show up. To be fair, she was not required to show up in court today.
SCHACHER: Oh, I didn`t know that. OK, good, that makes me feel a little better.
PINSKY: But Shirley, I`ll ask you a question. Given that tihs is so difficult to treat and this woman, if she has this condition, may not be
treatable. And by the way, it went to the point where somebody got killed, should we just lock her up?
IMPELLIZZERI: Well, this is an extremely difficult disorder to cure, extremely difficult.
PINSKY: That`s right.
IMPELLIZZERI: But we have a biological innate need for connection and attention. And I think she never got it and created this pathological way
of getting it. When your viewers ask why children, not her? You know, adults eventually lose sympathy for another adult that`s always sick. A
child, you always get sympathy. And also I think she needed to be needed by that child. There was something I read where somebody witnessed her
slapping the child and then when he started crying, she`d, you know, comfort him.
So I think she really needed to be needed by this child also, which is why we saw her doing it to her child and not to herself.
PINSKY: Sam, you kind of get that the three, four of us, get -- exactly, that`s exactly the point. This is how it works. It`s just how it works.
SCHACHER: It`s hard for me. I get that, Dr. Drew. And believe me, we`ve covered a lot of people with mental illnesses and I`m usually on your side.
But for this woman, it`s hard for me to have an understanding of her. To me, she just seems really selfish.
PINSKY: She is.
SCHACHER: And the fact she was aware of it for so long and then tried to cover it up.
PINSKY: OK, Judy, last words. Got to get out.
HO: Sure, Dr. Drew. I think you mentioned this last time. Munchausen is a lot like a personality disorder where they manipulate and that`s why it`s
very hard to understand and very hard to treat.
PINSKY: That`s right. And I think if you remember the interview I did with the woman, the psychotic woman who had a break and killed her son, if you
look at that interview -- do we till have it online somewhere, Buddy?
SCHACHER: See, that made sense to me.
PINSKY: It`s on our website, HLNtv.com/drdrew. You can find it there. And I interviewed a woman with schizophrenia who had a break and then came
to like, oh my god, what have I done. People seem to understand that, they can kind of get their head around that. But these chronic disturbances of
thought and character functioning are more difficult for people to understand as an illness. And I understand that. I get it. And they
often do horrible things, and when they do, the law must step in.
Next up, the killer next door. This is another story. This one is atrocious and the law does step in. We`ll talk about how a neighbor tried
but couldn`t stop the murder of her good friend. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911: OK. What`s your first name, sir?
JARED REMY, CONVICTED OF STABBING GIRLFRIEND TO DEATH: Jared.
911: Jared. OK.
JENNIFER: Can I have my phone back?
JARED: Hold on, I`m on the phone with the police. I`ll give you your phone back, hold on!
JENNIFER: Tell them what you did.
JARD: Hold on.
911: OK, did anything physical occur, sir?
JARED: Did what?
911: Jared, did anything physical happen?
JARED: No. No.
911: There wasn`t any pushing or shoving?
JARED: No, no pushing or shoving.
JENNIFER: Yes, there was pushing and shoving (INAUDIBLE).
911: Jared.
JENNIFER: Hello?
911: Hi.
JENNIFER: No, this is Jen. I`m the one who had to call the cops. He took the phone away from me. He took me and slammed my face against the mirror.
He is just a very violent person who`s on a lot of medication who might need some serious help because he`s very angry and has a very bad temper.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Erica, and Judy. Two days after that 911 call, Jared Remy went to the apartment he shared with Jennifer Martel and stabbed
her to death in front of their four-year-old daughter. Also witnessing this brutal attack was Jennifer`s friend and next door neighbor, Kristina
Hill. She`s our first guest in our two-night series, "The Killer Next Door."
Sam, give us some background.
SCHACHER: Yes. Ugh, this guy makes he sick, Dr. Drew. But Jared Remy is the son of the really Boston infielder for the Red Sox turned broadcaster
Jerry Remy. Now Jared, the son, he has an extensive criminal history dating back to the year 200, where he was caught in possession of
hypodermic needles. Also, he has a history of abusing women, surprise, surprise. Five of his ex-girlfriends that we know of, beginning at the age
of 17, and then just this past May he pled guilty of the murder of his girlfriend at the time, Jennifer Martel. He will be spending the rest of
his life behind bars with no parole. Thank god.
PINSKY: Thanks, Sam. And as I said, Kristina Hill joins us. She was the neighbor, the next door neighbor of Jared Remy and Jennifer Martel. She
actually tried to pull Jared off of Jennifer as he was stabbing this poor woman to death.
Kristina, we played Jennifer`s 911 call. It was two days before the murder. It`s chilling to hear the words and to understand that I guess the
system failed her. What did you learn from this awful experience?
KRISTINA HILL, WITNESSED NEIGHBOR`S MURDER: I learned that family members and friends should not, you know, disregard any sort of warning signs or
gut feelings that they have about a person, especially someone that may be reaching out that you`re not sure about.
My biggest regret is that I didn`t push Jen enough. I worried that if I pushed her too much, she was back away or withdraw from me. And in the end
I think that it`s important that family and friends understand that the safety of the victim is the first priority, and to do whatever you can to
ensure their safety.
PINSKY: And Kristina, tell me about the murder, how you heard it going down and how you got involved with it.
HILL: So that night it was in my town home and I was just typing on my computer and I heard banging. Jen and I shared a wall and I heard a ton of
banging on the wall as I had two nights before. I typed to my husband that I was going to call the cops. He was in Australia on business.
I called the cops right away. I went and checked on my son, my infant son, who was sleeping. And when I came back downstairs, I heard Jen`s young
daughter, Arianna, screaming. And I walked outside. We shared a patio as well that had a half wall that came up to our waists. And over the wall I
saw Jen stumbling out of her apartment, and she was saying in a very husky voice, in a pained voice, "Help, help, please help me." And Jared was
behind her, like grabbing her.
I couldn`t see a lot because it was 8:40 or so at night and it was dark. So it was only lit by the lights from our patio. So I ran across to her
patio. And by that time, Jared had her on her back and he was strangling her with his left hand. And I just thought that he was strangling her
because her face was very, very red and she was pushing up against him with both of her arms. And so I just started hitting him on the head and
screaming at him to stop. So I just kept punching him and punching him.
That`s when I realized that there was this weird squishing sound happening and I looked down and he had a knife if his right hand and he was stabbing
her over and over again. And I just lost it and started screaming "Help, help." And two other neighbors ran out and I went up to one of them and I
said, "He`s killing her, he`s killing her, she`s dying."
And he ran over with me and started clapping him in his face trying to distract him and sort of got on top of him and was trying to push him off
by the shoulders. And he unbalanced Jared and Jared swiped the knife at him and the neighbor told me to run. I ran back into my place and grabbed
the phone and called 911 again, screaming where were they, where were they. And he`s still on top of her continually stabbing her. And I watched her
legs flop over. I knew at that point that she was definitely dead and he took his blue tank top off and threw it over her face and just got up and
walked back inside their home.
PINSKY: It`s too much. It`s too much. How have you recovered from all of that?
HILL: I haven`t. It`s a daily process. I see a trauma therapist.
PINSKY: Oh good. Very good.
HILL: Yep. So that helps.
PINSKY: You spoke a bit -- those of us that are familiar with that work, I can tell you, you were able to speak about it in a cohesive way and it
didn`t overwhelm you too much. But it overwhelmed us to hear you. It`s just an incredible story. I`m so sorry; I`m so sorry for you, I`m so sorry
for your friend. I`m so happy the legal system worked properly for a change. Although --
HILL: Thank you.
PINSKY: I don`t know how people feel about the death penalty were but anybody for it -- you almost wish -- I guess him pleading guilty got him
out of that problem, but I don`t know. I don`t know how that works.
HILL: I think --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Kristina.
HILL: I think for Arianna`s sake, I think that not having the death penalty is a good thing, because maybe when she`s an adult she`s going to
have some questions. This gives her a chance --
PINSKY: Fair enough.
HILL: -- To maybe get those answers.
Pinsky: That`s a very mature and evolved way to think about this. And I really appreciate you sharing the story with us. And any last thoughts?
To me, I hear opiates and steroids and all this stuff too, and I want to blame some of that for this, but there`s clearly more going on with this
guy.
HILL: Definitely. I think there was a lot going on that we won`t understand. And -- I don`t know. It`s -- I never imagined that he could
do something like this. You invite someone into your home and to make ice cream runs with and share your car with and you never expect to have them
turn around and do that to someone they loved, someone that you loved.
PINKSY: Well, that`s why we feel this --
HILL: Uncomprehensible.
PINNKSY: This series, "The Murderer Next Door," is such an important series. It`s "The Killer Next Door," I beg your pardon, "The Killer Next
Door" is such an important in that it can help people understand what some of the warning signs are.
And what I want to do -- first of all, I want to thank you, Krista, for sharing the story. It`s so important. And good job taking care of
yourself in the face of such a shattering experience.
What I want to bring the behavior bureau back and see if we can learn something from this. We`ll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Erica, Michelle and Judy. Jared Remy was the killer next door. He was an addict using stereoids and opiates, had a
history of domestic violence. He, thank god, will spend the rest of his life in prison for stabbing his girlfriend, Jennifer Martel, to death.
I want to show you what he told the judge. This informs -- Michelle, you`ll like this part, because it puts him from drug addict to evil.
Here`s what he said to the judge the day he pleaded guilty to her murder. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REMY: Blame me for this, not my family. Jen always said that my family was her real family. They both loved each other and I`m the bad apple. I
would like you to know that I always told Jen she could leave, but do not threaten me with my daughter. That night, Jen had a knife in her hand and
threatened me with my daughter. So I killed her. I don`t think it`s right when women use their kids against their fathers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There you go, Erica. He went from the jacked up drug addict to I`m blaming this woman I killed.
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: Do you understand why I killed her now? do you understand?
AMERICA: Yes -- no. This guy was a control freak and had a notorious history of abusing women and then finally when it came closing in on him,
there was the order of protection and then she maybe brought up I`m going to leave you, he went crazy. He was a ticking time bomb. And that lovely
woman, Kristina, she did everything that she could. And I don`t want her to regret -- have regrets. But unless this guy was already behind bars, I
don`t think there was any way to stop this. This guy was just -- it was a crime of complete passion.
PINSKY: I think this guy had been passionate a number of times. But, Judy, isn`t it interesting that -- one thing Kristina said I thought we
could really learn from is how she was afraid she was going to disrupt the relationship with her friend by bringing this to her attention. I think a
lot of people hold back because of that issue. And it actually confusing me. If you have clarity about what you`re doing, you should not worry
about the relationship. You could potentially be saving somebody`s life
HO: That`s right. I think she learned that lesson now. But I understand her concerns.
PINSKY: It`s common. It`s really -- it`s everybody --
HO: It`s very common.
PINSKY: It`s why people don`t bring up drinking and driving. People don`t drink, tell their kids -- they`re afraid to tell their kids what they
should be doing because they don`t want to disrupt the relationship. It`s the saddest thing when people fall back on that.
HO: That`s right, and you know what? It`s a very real fear, because what if you push too hard and they stop telling you things all together. Then
you won`t be in the know when she gets abused. So I understand that to a degree, and I feel really bad that she feels this way.
But I want to talk about the fact that he had this prolonged drug use, which obviously exacerbated everything, because it changes brain
chemistries forever, and probably inhibited his prefrontal cortex even more, impairing his functioning, making these types of issues more
possible.
PINSKY: Now, Michelle, I know you hate us talking about the prefrontal cortex but I`ll show it and I`ll let you have the last word.
FIELDS: Well, look, this guy had anger management issues obviously.
PINSKY: What? That`s a medical -- that sounds like a medical thing. What are you talking about, Michelle?
FIELDS: OK, OK, look. He had some anger problems. He terrorized his five past girlfriends. I mean, the woman should have left earlier. It`s a
shame that she didn`t. I`m not blaming her but if you meet a guy and you find that every single one of his ex-girlfriends he had a problem with,
that is a sign. And he was a control freak. I mean he would demand when she could cook, when she couldn`t cook. I mean, the whole story is just
awful.
PINSKY: Great point. Do not assume, if somebody had has been involved in domestic violence, that they will not happen when you get involved with
them. The overwhelming probability is it will.
We have a memorial website for Jennifer Martel. For information, go to it. Go to HLNtv.com/drdrew.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Sam, I am so sorry I did not get to you in the last block. But we will continue this conversation in the aftershow at HLNtv.com/drdrew.
You`re first up.
"FORENSIC FILES" is next.
END
