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At This Hour

Brief Gaza Truce Ends Quickly With Hamas Mortar Fire; Bank Robbery and Chase in Northern California; G.M. CEO Back Before Congress; What to Do with Thousands of Children on the Border?; Malaysian Airlines Plane Crashes in Ukraine Near Russian Border

Aired July 17, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Gunfire on the streets of California, a bank robbery and high-speed chase ends in a hail of bullets killing a hostage and two robbery suspects.

Fasten your seat belts. It is going to be a bumpy flight. A new study has a warning for airline travelers about the increase in turbulence and what's behind it.

And he has conquered the stage and screen dressed as a man and a woman, and now he's coming after your computer too, Neil Patrick Harris changing art and technology and, best of all, visiting us live right here @THISHOUR.

Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman. Michaela Pereira is off today. It's 11:00 a.m. in the East, 8:00 a.m. out West, those stories and more, right now, @THISHOUR.

We're going to start with Israel, firing up its military machine, resuming air strikes in Gaza against Hamas. The five-hour truce to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza blew up two hours after it began.

Hamas broke whatever peace there was with mortar fire, and Israeli officials say at least one rocket was shot into the country just as the break came to an end. The head of the United Nations says the temporary cease-fire was, quote, "mostly respected."

Israeli officials also say more than a dozen Hamas militants tried to get into the country through a tunnel as the cease-fire began. Video shows the explosion from an air strike on the spot a short time later.

Meanwhile, there's outrage after four children were killed in an Israeli air strike as they were playing at a beach in Gaza. Hamas calls this a war crime. Israel says it was a mistake, and it's accusing Hamas of using the boys as human shields.

Our military analyst, retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, is here. We also have Daniel Kurtzer with us to join the conversation. He's the former U.S. ambassador to Israel and Egypt.

Daniel, I want to start with you. The fact that Hamas either chose to fire mortars during this temporary cease-fire or was unable to keep it from happening, what does that tell you about the situation inside Gaza?

DANIEL KURTZER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL AND EGYPT: It tells you there's a serious lack of governance capability. We knew that some time ago, that Hamas' ability to govern, to control the population, to control dissident elements, had eroded and it's quite likely that the break of this humanitarian cease-fire took place as a result of one of the dissident groups.

Hamas probably was ready to abide by it, but it also tells you then how challenging it will be to get to a real cease-fire.

BERMAN: And, Rick, it does show what Israel often claims, Hamas can't police within its own borders, it can't keep the rockets from coming out, so Israel would argue that's why they have to do the air strikes.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL RICK FRANCONA (RETIRED), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yeah, and the air strikes are just a prelude of what we're not all looking forward to. It seems that if the cease-fires don't work and they cannot stop the rocket attacks from the air they will have to go in on the ground.

The Israelis do not want do this. They do not want to take the casualties that will entail. And remember the Palestinians have had almost two years to prepare that battle space for the way they want to shape it.

So they've got all these interlocking tunnels. It will be very, very -- it will be a bloodbath once the Israelis get in there on both sides. Neither side wants to do this but seems we have no choice as we're drawn further and further into this.

BERMAN: Ambassador, there are awful pictures on both sides of this story, on both sides of the border here, but the one this morning that's really seared into everyone's head is that beach in Gaza where there's four children who were killed by Israeli shelling.

Israel, when they see this and they see the reaction that comes from it around the world, how do you think it affects the decisions they make, or does it affect them at all?

KURTZER: Well, I think for the majority of the Israeli population, the killing of these four kids is as serious a problem and a tragedy as anything else.

The problem is that the government, particularly the Israeli security cabinet, tends to take a harder view and looks upon these situations, as you heard in your opening report, that these kid mace have been used as kind of human shields.

I don't think that's the case, but it tells you the difference between a very hard-line view taken by the Israeli government and the human tragedy that I think is felt by most Israelis.

BERMAN: And, Colonel, once again, in Egypt, they're talking about ways to maybe broker a cease-fire. Once again, Israel may be interested in the type of deal that Egypt would put forth. But at this point -- and I'll ask this to both of you, but you first, Colonel -- is Egypt capable of putting forth a proposal that would be agreed to by both Israel and Hamas?

FRANCONA: It just depends on if they can come up with something both sides can live with.

I think the Israelis are amenable to some sort of solution because they don't want this to go any further. What the Israelis want is for those rockets to stop, then they can deal with other problems.

Hamas, on the other side, they have a bunch of conditions, and I don't see where they're going with this.

BERMAN: Ambassador, last word, will Hamas ever agree to something Egypt proposes at this point?

KURTZER: I think it's inevitable that they will. The question is, how far down the tree does Hamas have to climb?

They've established some preconditions such as Israel's releasing all of the people that it took three or four weeks ago. That's not going to happen.

But I think there will be some opening of the Gaza/Egypt border that will relieve some of the humanitarian stress within Gaza.

BERMAN: Let's hope something happens soon because it would be nice to see less of the shelling. I think everyone on both sides of the border feels that way.

Ambassador, Colonel, thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

Another big story we're following @THISHOUR -- that is not a war zone. That's northern California. Three bank robbery suspects led police on an hour-long chase that ended with three people dead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Chaos in northern California as a violent bank robbery ends in a barrage of gunfire, leaving one bank customer and two suspects dead. The events unfolded as three, heavily armed men entered a bank, tied up a security guard and took three women hostage before taking off in a stolen SUV with the police in hot pursuit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ram him if you need to stop him or hit him or something. If you can stop him, stop him.

BERMAN: The suspects had huge amounts of ammunition on them, according to police, who said the men had firearm magazines strapped to their bodies and fired on the officers relentlessly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a guy, number two male, sitting out the back window with a rifle. He's shooting at us with a rifle.

Taking fire! We are taking fire!

BERMAN: Under the hail of gunfire, two of the hostages either jumped or were pushed from the suspect's vehicle.

A witness managed to capture one of the moments on tape.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was on the ground. My brother saw her roll over, and her leg was tore up and bleeding.

BERMAN: After more than an hour, the suspect's SUV was disabled, but that didn't stop the man who continued the gun battle with officers, even, police say, using the last hostage as a human shield.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were trying to kill our police officers.

BERMAN: In the end all four people in the vehicle were shot. The hostage died of her wounds, though it's unclear when and by whom she was shot.

The incident is under investigation according to police who maintain they acted appropriately given the circumstances. Two of the suspects also died of their wounds, and one was taken into custody.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Police have now booked the surviving bank robbery suspect on homicide, kidnapping, robbery and attempted murder charges.

They say the deceased suspects were documented gang members, heavily, heavily armed as well.

Another story we're watching right now, Manuel Noriega is suing the makers of the "Call of Duty Black Ops II" video game. The former Panamanian dictator says he should get a share of the profits because the company used his name and his image.

He also claims his portrayal in the game as a kidnapper, killer and overall bad guy, damaged his reputation. Interesting given that Mr. Noriega is serving time in Panama for killing his political opponents.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, new questions for G.M.'s CEO Mary Barra. Was G.M. hiding information? Are they telling us everything they know even now?

Then, a minor insignificant question for you, is there life out there? Why NASA says we are closer than ever to finding life beyond Earth.

Plus, Neil Patrick Harris, live in this room, in this studio, to discuss his new role and so much more, all that's ahead @THISHOUR.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: So why did General Motors wait an entire decade to recall vehicles with deadly defects? That's the question that G.M. CEO Mary Barra is facing for the fourth time on Capitol Hill today. The ignition switch defect is tied to at least 13 deaths and investigators say probably more. Angry senators are focusing not just on Barra, but other executives at G.M. as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: How in the world in the aftermath of this report, did Michael Millikin keep his job?

I do not understand how the general counsel for a litigation department that had this massive failure of responsibility, how he would be allowed to continue in that important leadership role in this company?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The company has been fined $35 million, but for those keeping score at home, that is less than 1 percent of G.M.'s earnings in just the last 12 months.

Poppy Harlow joins me now from Washington. Poppy, this hearing, there have been a number of them already, so what is today's hoping to accomplish?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think today's hoping to accomplish, has G.M. really told us everything? Have G.M. lawyers told us everything?

The fact that Michael Milliken, the lead counsel of G.M., been brought by this committee, for the first time he's having to testify, that's what people should focus on.

We've heard from the CEO, time and time again. It's important, but listen to the lawyer. General Motors settled a number of lawsuits with victims' families over ignition switch-related deaths for up to $5 million under Michael Millikin and did not tell the head of the company or superiors.

And there are people that say that could have led them, John, to know about this defect a lot sooner and to have prevented deaths. That is going to be really the focus of this. Are you telling us everything?

Also the focus is going to be whether G.M. gave regulators all they had on the deadly crashes. That "New York Times" reporter earlier this week, you know, said that they didn't. What does G.M. have to say about that?

BERMAN: You can hear in the tone of the voice senators are using they're not convinced they're being told the whole story.

HARLOW: Right.

BERMAN: Poppy, the company has set up a compensation fund for victims, offering at least a million dollars to the families of those who died, but the families have to give up their right to sue. Are the families you've spoken to willing to do this? HARLOW: Not all of them. They're going to consider it, most of them,

see what they're offered.

But, you know, one family, the Melton family, who lost their 29-year- old daughter Brooke Melton in one of the crashes, who we have spent a lot of time with, said it's not about any amount of money, this is about having our day in court. They want to take GM to court, not settle. Also, really important technical but, punitive damages, John, are not included in the compensation plan. That means if you take the money you can't take GM to court for punitive damages. If you think they covered something up. If you think that you were not given all the information at the time of your settlement you're not going to be able to take GM to court for that. So that's really key in this.

BERMAN: Finally, Poppy, not all the cars recalled for this ignition switch issue, these defects, not all of them are included in the victim compensation plan. Why is that?

HARLOW: Well Senator Blumenthal just asked that, to Ken Feinberg, the victim compensation leader, and he said it's not up to me to decide what cars are included. You have plaintiff lawyers and victims families out there, really mad that their loved ones died or were injured in cars, they think, because of an ignition switch defect and they're not included in the plan.

Why is that? General Motors is saying, look, we included all the cars that were under extenuating circumstances. It had this exact defect that someone at GM knew about over ten years ago and didn't tell higher ups apparently about. But they're not including all of them and, John, I think the key question as we watch this develop over weeks, is that going to change? Is GM going to widen that plan and say, OK, you can be considered for compensation. That could change.

BERMAN: We're deep into the story there. A lot of questions that remain. Poppy Harlow on it for us. Thanks so much Poppy. Coming up, the President losing support from his own party. Is this a turning point? What do you do when there's a crisis on the border and thousands of children at risk? If you're Congress plan to go on vacation. We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: As more children come into the U.S. illegally every day, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi has changed her mind about revising a 2008 immigration law to expedite their deportation. She had been willing to accept changes to the law saying those changes were not a deal breaker, though now things seem different.

Let's bring in our political commentator Donna Brazile and Republican strategist Alice Stewart. Donna, I want to start with you here, so changing this law would allow undocumented immigrants from noncontiguous countries to be deported more quickly. In the past The White House has sort of indicated, hinted, that it would support, or not stand in the way of a change like this, but now Nancy Pelosi and more and more Democrats say no. So how does this help find a compromise on any of these issues in Congress? DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think change in the

law will necessarily stop these kids from fleeing violence and other tragedies, but I do believe that at some point we need to look at this in a comprehensive way. That's why we have a comprehensive bill that is sitting there in the house for them to take up. The Senate has passed it, it's a bipartisan bill, and perhaps under the guise of a comprehensive solution, a comprehensive look at immigration reform we can fix our outdated immigration laws, fix the border, strengthen enforcement and that might bring us to, you know, solving the problems that the Republicans -- we're not talking about amnesty. No one is talking about amnesty. What we're talking about is making sure that we treat these children in a humane way, that we process them under the current law, and some will be deported, some may have to stay here based on the current law.

That's the current law. But John, this is my concern, we get into all the legalese and the process, these are children, human beings just like our children, and I just hate to see us screaming and hollering and fighting instead of helping these kids.

BERMAN: All right. Donna, I want you to hang on for one second here. We do have some breaking news that I want to tell you all about right now. Based on reports from Reuters and Interfax, a Malaysian Airlines flight with about 295 people on board has crashed we are told from reports from Reuters and Interfax. This happened in Ukraine, near the Russian border. Interfax is citing an aviation industry source as saying this on Thursday.

At this point it looks as if this Boeing plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Reuters could not immediately confirm, we are told, this Interfax report. Again this information, you know, everyone is asking, no doubt, a lot of questions right now. It is, we are told, a Malaysian Airlines flight, that is what Reuters is reporting. The flight went down, according to Reuters, between Russia and Ukraine. And there were some 290 people on board.

Obviously one of the first things that comes to mind, is Malaysia Airlines, the Malayasia Airlines flight that everyone now believes went down in the pacific in the southern Indian ocean off the coast of Australia. That received so much attention from around the world. No it does appear, at least according to reports, that a second Malaysian Airline flight has gone down.

I want to bring in Mary Schiavo, our aviation expert, on the phone right now. Mary, these reports very limited as of this moment. All we have is the flight believed from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, the location believed to be somewhere between Ukraine and Russia and the number of people on board. Is there anything that you see that jumps out at this point?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST (via telephone): Well yes. Most important thing is that a flight flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would have been at cruising altitude, which means it would have been up about 32,000 feet and so for someone to mistake that for a hostile aircraft, you know, between Russia and the Ukraine, it would be very, very difficult. It is difficult to see how this could just be a mistake, if they thought it was an enemy aircraft and so they shot it down. Obviously, at a regularly scheduled flight flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur it's not the missing plane.

I'm sure people thought, you know, their hearts leaped and thought, oh, my gosh is this the missing 777. No, because you have regularly scheduled aircraft, you know the tail number, you know the airplane, there's no correlation, at least at this point, with the missing aircraft.

But it is -- there is an amazing, you know, it's hard to believe it would be shot down as an enemy aircraft unless for some reason, we come back to the electronic portion of Malaysia Airlines and the way they identify their aircraft, unless for some reason its electronics was squawking the wrong -- meaning sending out, the wrong code, but it didn't appear to be a civilian commercial scheduled aircraft on somebody, these are Russian or Ukraine radar. So that can be the only thing that jumps to my mind about why this plane could have been mistaken for an enemy aircraft or if it was simply an errant heat seeking missile, obviously it would have gone for the two engines on the 777.

BERMAN: So this addresses one of the issues, I think, that immediately pops to mind when we look at the geography. We're told, by Reuters, that this plane went down between Ukraine and Russia, obviously hostilities going on right now in eastern part of Ukraine, Russia involved. One of the questions, you wonder is, is it possible this flight was shot down from the ground? Is it possible it was shot down from the air? Mary Schiavo saying at that point, it would have been a cruising altitude above 30,000 feet, be unlikely or certainly complicated at least for the plane to be shot down unless there was something going on there and some reason to suspect it was not a civilian aircraft.

Now Mary, the second big issue, I'm sure we'll come back to this in a second, the second big issue, the second big question that pops into everyone's mind right now, Malaysian Airlines, again. How unusual, how unlikely is it for an airline to suffer two disasters like this so close together?

SCHIAVO: Well, it's highly unlikely. In terms of mechanical problems I guess the closest thing we can think of is U.S. Air had a period way back in the '90s, they corrected it, I don't mean to suggest that it is ongoing, but they had various mechanical issues and they had a crash every year for five years straight. But they did a dramatic turnaround and fixed those problems, mechanical problems. American Airlines had a bad patch where they had a series of mechanical issues and then they had 9/11, where they had two of the four al Qaeda taken planes were American, so they had a patch.

But here, with two so close together, it's just -- it's just an unbelievable, I don't want to say coincidence, it's not a coincidence, something has happened to both planes, but statistically speaking it's very rare. Malaysian Airlines just isn't that big.

BERMAN: It's an unbelievable tragedy, is what it is. If this does turn out to be true. Reuters reporting based on reports from Interfax that a Malaysian Airlines flight, a Boeing 777, has crashed in Ukraine near the Russian border. It's a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

I want to bring in right now David Soucie, on the phone, he is the CNN safety analyst, former FAA inspector, author of "Why Planes Crash." David, I want to talk, right now, about the geography again. That is one of the very few details we have now. Eastern Ukraine near Russia. Obviously an area where there is conflict right now. We know from our history that sometimes commercial airlines get caught in international conflicts. Of course, the Korean Airlines flight that was shot down by the Soviet Union comes to mind here. What kind of precautions are in place to keep this from happening?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST (via telephone): Well, in that part of the region, in that region there really are not a lot of things to prevent this from happening because they're not interacted like we are here in the United States where the military and the civilian radar are shared, sometimes sitting right next to each other in the control areas. So that's not the way it is over there.

So we talk a lot about it in the Malaysian Airlines about the fact that the transponder went off-line. And the transponder is what identifies, of course, exactly which aircraft it is. When you have skies like that in turmoil areas, and they're hyper sensitive, hyper critical about any type of movement in the area, then it definitely could cause some kind of confusion as to what aircraft is what.

Remember, they have -- they don't have time to decide yes, it is or no, it's not hostile as they did in the Malaysian Air disappearance over there when they said, well, we disregarded that aircraft notice on the radar because of the fact that it was acting like a commercial airliner. In this case, you wouldn't be as relaxed about it, you're very hyper intense and waiting for it and a singular aircraft could change the way that conflict is going quickly.

BERMAN: Hang on one second, David. Thank you very much. David, stick around. Mary Schiavo, stick around.

Want to go now to Jim Sciutto, our national security correspondent, who joins us live now from Washington, D.C. Jim, thanks so much for being with us.

So many questions come to mind right now. Obviously I have been talking about the geography, this plane apparently going down in Ukraine near the Russian border. The second question, Malaysia Airlines, the second time in just a few months, an air disaster there. Is there something going on here in these early stages? What can you tell us some?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, I have spoken with U.S. officials, both in the White House, also U.S. Intelligence officials. They are aware of the reports at this point.