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At This Hour

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Lost Over Ukraine; 280 Passengers, 15 Crew Members on Board

Aired July 17, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Want to go now to Jim Sciutto, our national security correspondent, who joins us live now from Washington, D.C. Jim, thanks so much for being with us.

So many questions come to mind right now. Obviously I have been talking about the geography, this plane apparently going down in Ukraine near the Russian border. The second question, Malaysia Airlines, the second time in just a few months, an air disaster there. Is there something going on here in these early stages? What can you tell us some?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, I have spoken with U.S. officials both in the White House and intelligence and are aware of reports that they don't know the cause certainly at this point, although they're looking a at it but Malaysian is a AAA the same aircraft that went missing over the southern Indian Ocean but the other thing that comes to mind, listen, it is early, reasons you and I both know that a plane can go down, remember this border area as you look at the map along the Ukrainian/Russia border there have been a number of Ukrainian military transport planes shot down by Russian separatists in recent weeks including a report this morning of a Russian military jet that was shot down near there -- sorry Ukrainian military jet shot down near there. It's an active area.

Listen, again, to caveat a lot of reasons a plane can go down, accident, et cetera, but it's a question one of the many questions that come to mind at this point the location where this plane went down, it's in a very hot area with a real low-level you can say war going on between pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian forces.

BERMAN: Low level, but intensifying apparently to the point U.S. issued new sanctions against Russia and, as you say, there have been planes shot down in that region deliberately. We do not know if that's what happened here. And obviously I would think a commercial airline has a different profile from a military jet or a cargo jet, but it does appear to be in that region. Jim, give me a sense of the status of this conflict. As we've been saying intensifying with new U.S. sanctions.

SCIUTTO: No question, six weeks ago on June 5th, the president said Russia has to de-escalate in eastern Ukraine or the U.S. was going to impose greater costs. What, in fact, happened during those six weeks and the president noted this yesterday when he made his announcement of the new sanction, severe sanctions against Russia, is Russia has in many ways escalated. There is concern both in arms and fighters crossing the border and some of those arms that are crossing the border include missiles. Missiles that have been used, according to Ukrainian officials I talked to, to shoot down some of these Ukrainian transport planes and the possibility today. So that conflict, the president demanded six weeks ago as Europeans did for de-escalation and in many ways the conflict has escalated and, you know, we've had a lot of conflicts going on now, John, as you know in Gaza and Syria and Iraq but as those conflicts have been boiling over, this one has continued to brew and to get more severe and that's a concern.

BERMAN: It is a concern.

Once again, Jim, thank you so much.

We do not know what has happened to this plane. Right now what we do know is Reuters is reporting, based on Interfax, we're told a Malaysia Airlines flight has crashed in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border. Reportedly was a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. We do not know why it crashed, if this does turn out to be the case, but again, what we know is that geography which you're looking at right now and the fact that it was a Malaysia Airlines jet which again raises so many questions in and of itself.

Mary, I want to go back to something you were telling me before, based on this geography f we know the plane took off from Amsterdam, and then went down for whatever reason in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border, it would be flying at cruise altitude, that means above 30,000 feet. What else do we know about what might have been going on at this time of the flight?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, one of the things that pilots are trained to do is, for example, if it was a situation where military aircraft had spotted it, ordinarily they ask for a confirmation, attempt to communicate with the plane, even in Kaol where the Russians shot down a while back, and North Korea took down one or two also, but when they do that they said they did attempt to communicate. Now the issue with the transponder and squawking the right codes and making sure you identify yourself as this flight would depend on many things, on the pilot making sure they have the right codes in the airliner, it would depend upon the intercepting aircraft or radar being able to intercept that and know that it's a civilian jetliner and they should have it, Russia has it, Ukraine has it, and if it was a military flight and they were up at altitude, shouldn't have been in commercial jet altitude but in conflict people ignore the international laws, of course, then it could have been an air missile, heat seeking missile as well. It's difficult to tell. A lot depends -- people don't understand how very important it is to have those identifier codes identifying your aircraft as a civilian aircraft. It's very important. So there may be similarities between the disappearance in terms of identification of the plane, et cetera, but at 32,000 feet there's no reason to shoot down a civilian jetliner.

BERMAN: 280 passengers we're told, 15 crew. Reports that this Boeing 777 Malaysia Airlines flight crashed somewhere in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border. We do not know why at this point. Simply no information about why this plane went down, only the reports from Interfax and Reuters that it did. David Soucie, I want to bring you back into the discussion as we look

at this map, we see the border between Ukraine and Russia which has been in the news so much of late because of the hostilities there, is that an area that a commercial airline should be flying over at all?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST (voice-over): You know, I wish they had thought of that ahead of time. There are routes they can fly. The town says that when there's a conflict going on there's no restricted routes. Supposed to say hey they are safe, can go through without any problem. With regard to the being shot down or not, Mary's point was good about the fact that it -- at that altitude it shouldn't be involved in that conflict and should be a safe altitude to be at and remember, too, that ground to air missiles really aren't designed for that high of an altitude. There's some specialized ones that are, but in this particular conflict it's not that sophisticated. You would be looking at small arms that are not capable of shooting something down at 32,000 feet. If it was shot down it would have been an air-to-air situation, a very knowledgeable and intentful type of maneuver.

BERMAN: I want to reiterate that point, David, again, we don't know why this plane crashed at this moment. That is still something that we are looking into, to try to get confirmation. The flight altitude, if it took off from Amsterdam as we expect it did, if it did go down in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border, it would have been at cruising altitude of 30,000 plus feet, if it did get taken down for some reason, it would have had to have been from the air?

SOUCIE: Most likely it would have been. I'm not extremely familiar with what materials or armaments are available at that point but from what I've heard so far from Sciutto and other CNN reporters, that they -- excuse me, Spider Marks, they would not have had that sophisticated of materials there to put that aircraft down accurately. You know, they only have short-range type weapons there, so to shoot something down at 32,000 feet would be difficult at best with the armaments that were available on the ground.

#; We will find out more about what military capabilities do or do not exist that region, if we find out that may have been the cause for that plane going down. We are looking into that right now.

This just happening within the last few minutes here. Word a Malaysia Airlines flight has crashed near the Russian border flying between Amsterdam and the Netherlands and Kuala Lumpur. We do not know why it crashed but look at the geography. Ukraine and Russia, hostile border between the nations, the United States issuing heavier sanctions on Russia for its role in intensifying that conflict. There is the other issue, of course, the fact that it is a Malaysia Airlines flight and if, in fact, this plane did crash with 295 people on board we're told this would be the second air disaster for Malaysia Airlines in the last few months.

Mary Schiavo, it would be unfair to draw too many conclusions, an awful coincidence, and Malaysia Airlines in no way culpable -- it's too early for us to say if they have any role whatsoever or any responsibility for this flight going down, isn't it? SCHIAVO: Well, that's right. I mean it's too early to say what that

is. The only correlation I can draw between Malaysia's 370 the one that went missing and this one, they're both triple 7s, a very popular airplane, and we might have again issues concerning communication. You know, that -- and, of course, they also -- I'm going to draw a parallel to the Kaol 007 the Russians shot down, that had veered from its course. It veered from its course and there were problems with communication. In a hostility or disputed areas, any alteration from your course, and you can have a problem. You must respond immediately on the communications. So it's possible there's similarities there. But at this point, you know, it's hard to blame a civilian jetliner for just a horrible shoot down. It's not -- you know, there's no cause and effect there. Being an airliner flying on a legal route at 32,000 feet and this is a very common route from the Netherlands to Kuala Lumpur. You go right over Europe and you do it all the time and we have treaties that cover this. Those are about the only correlations I can draw between 370 and this one.

BERMAN: Mary, thank you so much. Sit tight for a moment.

We did get more information. MH flight 17, this is a flight between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Airline flight, confirms that it has lost contact with this flight. Lost contact with this flight. That is the flight that Reuters is now reporting based on what Interfax is saying crashed in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border.

I want to bring in Atika Shubert live from London.

What are you hearing?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly that. Malaysia Airlines confirming they lost contact with MH-317 I believe they're saying, just somewhere near that area between the Ukraine and Russian border. All we know at this point is that the plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It was supposed to arrive there tomorrow, early tomorrow morning, had 280 passengers and 15 crew. Now this as you've been hearing from many people was a regular route, even though there had been conflict in this area at some time, at certain times Ukrainian officials said the air space there should be carefully watched and to avoid, but I don't believe any indication of that and there were flights going over this area to other parts of the world as well. So we're still trying to understand what happened. All we know at this point is that Malaysia Airlines lost contact. There are reports it crashed near the border, but we have not confirmed that. We're still looking. And we're, of course, trying to figure out what exactly happened and why, obviously, a huge coincidence we don't really know yet, but it is remarkable that again, Malaysia Airlines has had another massive problem with another Boeing 777.

BERMAN: A huge tragedy to be sure. Reuters reporting 280 passengers, 15 crew members on this flight. It was a flight Malaysia Airlines flight 17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur a Boeing 777, the same type of plane that MH-370 was the flight now missing, being searched for in the southern Indian Ocean. And again, Atika, you are based in London, see what's going on in Europe, so much conflict right now in that region between Ukraine and Russia. The U.S. just intensifying sanctions over the last several days. The situation there getting worse by the day. If this plane was taken down intentionally or by mistake, as some kind of connection in the military conflict, I think that would make the situation that much worse?

SHUBERT: Of course. It would completely inflame the situation. You have to realize that what's been happening over the last few months, of course, is the intensifying of violence there. I was in the area of Donetsk, one of the areas where the plane is believed to have actually crashed and this is an area that is constantly being contested by Russian -- by separatists who want to join Russia and by the Ukrainian forces trying to maintain control. The airport has been a huge part of that conflict as they try to battle through control of the airport. Flying into there was often actually suspended. But as far as I know, commercial airliners didn't have a problem flying over that area and again, they were flying at altitudes that wouldn't have been affected by the conflict. But having said that, Ukrainian security official yesterday, in fact, alleged that the Russian government had shot down one of its Ukrainian fighter jet in the area. Now, when we hear that kind of an allegation and then a day later find out that a plane apparently has gone down in that area, well, it raises a lot of questions as to what might have happened and is it related to the conflict ongoing.

BERMAN: Let me bring people up to speed, Atika, on what we know. Thanks so much.

We have been told now by Malaysia Airlines -- and they have put out a tweet -- they say they have lost contact with MH flight 17, that is a flight between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur. Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH-17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow. That again is confirmation from Malaysia Airlines they have received no communications from this flight in some time and gives a sense of geography we have been talking about in Ukraine. We believe it's eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border. It's on that strip between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur where the flight was going.

I want to bring in Chad Myers right now to discuss this flight path.

Give me a sense of how this thing was going and where it was headed.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Looking at flight aware, we have been able to see the plane was at about 33,000 feet doing about 468 knots, planned for 480 but probably a little head wind, no issue there. Out of Amsterdam here and flying across Ukraine. Flight aware lost contact with the plane here. Crashed on the eastern border of Ukraine. Let me take you to yesterday, we'll take you to the same flight, because these flights are regularly scheduled. That's one thing we talked about, how there was a Malaysian air flight 17 yesterday. Here's where it went out of Amsterdam across Ukraine and down to Kuala Lumpur. That was a successful flight. This ended somewhere over Ukraine. I've seen pictures at least some smoke of the pictures of this aircraft. It doesn't look like there's going to be a lot left of that aircraft but the smoke that came out of some of the videos we're now seeing here.

BERMAN: Right. Chad Myers thank you for that.

Again the key there, that path taking it over Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine in that border between Ukraine and Russia, and this just has obvious question about the conflict that is raging in that region between pro- Russian fighters in eastern Ukraine and the Ukrainian government. The Russian government, Russian troops said to be massing in greater numbers than before at the border. The U.S. just issuing heavier sanctions on Russia. There have been Ukrainian cargo flights and planes that have been shot down in that region over the last few weeks. We do not know at this point if this is what happened to MH- 17. At this point the questions must be asked, because of where we do believe that this flight went down. Malaysia Airlines confirming they lost contact with the flight over Ukraine some time ago.

David, I want to bring you in again.

I asked you this question before but wonder if we can get more elaboration about what is standard operating procedure about flying over these conflict zones?

SOUCIE (voice-over): Well, the primary thing is that the identification of the aircraft has to be completely clear and when it is, it should not be involved in the conflict in any way whatsoever because of its altitude, where it's operating, it shouldn't be confused as a cargo plane, confused as anything else, because of the fact that its identification. Remember, that identification comes from the transponder and the transponder is the same thing we had troubles with MH-370 when it went off. I'm not trying to say it's the same problem because we have no information that says that at this point. But we need to be cognizant of the fact that is the way even military radar can identify that aircraft, commercial airplane or being a threat.

BERMAN: Hang on. I want to bring in Barbara Starr right now, our terrific Pentagon reporter.

Barbara, what can you tell us right now about what kinds of information that perhaps we can start to glean from this flight?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, as you have been saying, of course, we do not know what happened to this airplane. We don't know the circumstances of why it went down. But, I have just spoken to an official with an understanding of the latest information, and what I can tell you is this is capturing the immediate attention of both the U.S. military, the intelligence community, the White House, and there's a couple of reasons why. On Monday, a Ukrainian cargo plane was shot down.

At that time, Ukraine said that it was shot down by the Russians from their side of the border, from the Russian's side of the border. That sort of was a piece of information that sat out there for a couple of days, but now, what I can tell you is the U.S. believes, having conducted some technical analysis and trajectory analysis of how the plane went down, they now do believe it is likely on Monday a Ukrainian cargo plane was shot down from something on the Russian side of the border. So on Monday, they believe that the information is pointing in the

direction Russia did shoot a plane down from their side of the border across into Ukraine. So you can imagine how much this latest incident now is capturing the attention of U.S. officials.

One of the things that they are telling me is, they're simply trying to figure out what is going on here. If, in fact, Russia is doing this, what is the motivation, what's the military motivation? Were these authorized events by Vladimir Putin, by the Russian military? Do you have Russian troops on that border who may be so poorly trained they do not recognize that profile you were just talking about, about the difference between a passenger cargo plane which can look somewhat alike and some kind of military threat. So this is what they're looking at.

How will they do this? There are U.S. satellite, U.S. intelligence, electronic everything that the U.S. has, they will, in that area, they will now go back through and look for any intelligence. Again, they will look at the trajectory analysis just as they have done with the cargo plane that went down on Monday. And they will try now to piece together and see if they can come to any independent conclusion about what may have happened. Because, of course, such a sensitive area right now geopolitically where this went down, they're going to go back now and look because there is intelligence coverage of this area.

There's plenty of systems out there that have been keeping an eye on this. You know, John, right now you have 12,000 Russian troops on the border. They have surface-to-air missiles, rockets, artillery, tanks. This is something the U.S. has been watching for the last couple of weeks. That buildup of several months ago it went down, well, now it's back. And now the U.S. Trying to figure out exactly what has transpired here.

BERMAN: Barbara, I want to follow up on this point in just a second.

Hang on. I do want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. Bring you up to speed on the information we have right now. Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 reported missing. Somewhere between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur. That was the flight path. We are told the flat, the last point of contact in eastern Ukraine. The Reuters news agency is reporting that flight crashed in eastern Ukraine. We are still trying to get confirmation of that.

Malaysia Airlines confirms it lost contact with MH17 over Ukraine. We're told 295 people on board, 280 passengers, 15 crew members. And when you look at that map, what jumps out to you is the conflict that has been raging in that part of the world in eastern Ukraine on the border with Russia. 12,000 Russian troops massed now on the border, as Barbara Starr just reported. Just moments ago Barbara told us that the U.S. military does believe that a Ukrainian cargo plane was shot down on Monday. And we're bringing that up because that illuminates the situation on the ground there right now and also in the air and the potential dangers for aircraft in that area.

STARR: Well, it does, John. This was -- it's called a 26, a Russian- made, actually, cargo plane that Ukraine was flying. This analysis, I would say, perhaps broader than just the U.S. military. The U.S. intelligence community, the U.S. Military has a number of intelligence-gathering systems in that part of the world that they can use when an event happens, a kinetic event, if you will, they can look for infrared signatures, heat signatures, unexpected heat signatures, unexpected acoustic signatures, any electronic information that they may gather that some weapons system has gone off in a place that it is not expected to be.

What we know is that on Monday when a cargo -- the Ukraine cargo plane went down, the Ukraine government at that point said they believed it was shot down from the Russian side of the border. The U.S. has been looking at it using all those systems we just talked about, especially coming up with a trajectory analysis, if you will. Where did the kinetic weapon come from that likely shot down this Antonov 26? What I am told by a source who's familiar with all of this is the U.S. Has -- does believe it is likely, it is possible, they believe it did most likely come from the Russian side of the border. You know, is this ironclad? No. But the U.S. Military, the U.S. Intelligence community, very experienced at this type of trajectory analysis because think of p this way. They keep watch around the world for any infrared heat signatures. Everything from a North Korean missile launch to an atomic explosion somewhere in the world.

So they're very experienced for looking for these kinds of unexpected events. That's where we are right now. The belief is, Monday, the plane went down, shot from the Russian side of the border. We do not know about this one, but the issue on the table for the U.S. is, if it is, what are the Russians up to? Why are they doing this? Is this some element of Russian military activity that we simply don't understand? Are these troops launching against airplanes out there without understanding whether they are a threat or not?

BERMAN: Well, those are the questions we will certainly ask once we find out more information about why this plane did go down reportedly in eastern Ukraine.

Barbara Starr, thank you so much.

What you're looking at right now is a map, the last point of radar contact with MH flight 17. That's a Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur with 295 people on board. You can see the radar line there. It ends, simply ends there in the eastern Ukraine. I can't tell by this map how close to the Russian border that might be. To be clear, Malaysia Airlines is confirming it has lost contact with this flight. Boeing, which makes the 777, also is saying it is aware of the reports and is still awaiting further information at this point. Just to point out the obvious again by looking at this map, we know of the intense conflict right now raging in that part of the world.

I want to bring in Miles O'Brien right now, of course, a terrific aviation analyst, a friend of CNN.

Miles, we don't know much yet. What we do know, again, is that this flight was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Presumably it would have been at cruising altitude above 30,000 feet. We know they lost contact with it and it dropped off radar somewhere over Ukraine. What does that tell you?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANALYST: Well, as you've been talking about, John, here the thing they're worried the most about here, the initial source of concern would be the volatile region which that airplane was flying into. Now, of course, that particular flight path and the way that aircraft would have behaved on a radar screen would lead any air traffic controller, and for that matter any military personnel who was manning some sort of ground-to-air missile would see that obviously as a civilian airliner.

And there's an additional piece of technology involved here. The identification friend or foe technology which allows combatants in a zone like that to identify at the very least the friendly aircraft in their zone. So, you know, what you immediately think about, frankly, it takes me right back to September of 1983 and the Soviet shoot down of the 747, the Korean Airlines jet 007. You have to think about that kind of scenario there where that aircraft strayed into Soviet airspace and a horrible mistake was made which the Soviet Union later admitted.

Now, this is very early on, but the wreckage path will tell an awful lot. If an aircraft is, in fact, if it breaks up in midair, there's a big, wide swath of wreckage as we saw in the case of the Lockerbie explosion, pan am 103. And if it was some other type of crash, some other sort of breakdown or mechanical situation, it might be a very different kind of wreckage field much more concentrated. It will be something that will become very evident very quickly, I think.

BERMAN: Something that will become evident and as Barbara Starr was pointing out, this is an area of the world right now where I think the U.S. has a lot of intelligence resources, a lot of eyes pointed right now over this area. I can't imagine it will be long before we find out what happened to this flight. And miles, you did bring up the Korean Airline flight, 007, that was famously shot down by the Soviets sometime ago, back in 1983, I think. After that, miles, and you're a student of history and aviation, were any precautions put in place to protect commercial airlines from the dangers of international conflict?

O'BRIEN: Well, one of the things that they discovered in that one was that the ergonomics on the autopilot system, the navigation system of a 747 needed some improvement. There was a simple mistake made by the crew as they input that course which sent them astray. In addition to that, there was, you know, increased monitoring of those flights by the U.S. as they flew close to Soviet airspace in that area of the world. The fact is that the technology has only improved since then for both on the navigation side for the aircraft and the ability for radar systems to see and understand where these aircraft are and to make a distinction between what is a friendly and what may not be in a situation where there's combat under way. So, you know, civilian airliner at that level at that flight path would be very difficult to mistake for something that would have hostile intent. You know, obviously it's very early, but this is, you know, the odd, seemingly amazing coincidence that this is a Malaysia Airliner 777, you know, adds a whole other component to all this. You know, what's very interesting, of course, is that we talked a lot about the U.S. assets and the possibility of looking for wreckage for the Malaysia Airliner 370. Well, the reason there weren't a lot of U.S. assets pointed in that direction is they were pointed in this part of the world where there's so much tension. And so it's a logical conclusion, which you've led us to, John, that there will be a lot of data that we can use, at least to ascertain what happened here.

BERMAN: It is something we will be looking at as soon as that information comes in.

Miles O'Brien, stick around, please, for us. Thank you so much for helping shed light on this situation.

I would like to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.

There is breaking news at this moment.