Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Malaysia Airlines Plane Shot Down; Boots on the Ground in Gaza

Aired July 17, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

We have breaking news on two fronts, Malaysia Airlines flight 17 shot down over a rebel-controlled area of Eastern Ukraine. And Israel puts boots on the ground in Gaza.

All day, we have been telling you about the devastating scene in Ukraine. But it's important for you to remember what we're really talking about is a tragic fate of 298 people from all over the world, from the Netherlands to Malaysia, and, amazingly, the same airline as Flight 370 still missing without a trace; 15 crew members and 283 passengers, including three infants.

Freelance journalist Noah Sneider was on the scene of this crash.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOAH SNEIDER, JOURNALIST: People, locals say that the plane exposed in the air, so it was kind of -- it fell down in pieces, as they said. So bits of the plane, bits of the bodies, bits of people's possessions.

It's going to be nearly impossible to establish with any certainty what happened here.

There's a few sort of engine rotors, big, huge metal pieces that are still intact. But for the most part, everything is burnt up and charred and scattered over a few kilometers.

I mean, it's hard to say with certainty, but maybe five kilometers. It's a pretty, pretty wide radius.

And the debris starts kind of up the road. There is a tail fin, and you come a little bit further down, and you see the place where the emergency services crews have set up a base of sorts, some firefighters, some rescue teams.

And they're kind of in the center of where most of it landed. There is a white tent out in the field where they are collecting bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So it is early on, and there is a lot we don't know. But here is what we do know about the tragedy right now. The United States, using satellites and high-speed computers,

concludes that the plane was shot down, but hasn't pinpointed who is responsible. Ukraine says pro-Russian separatists are behind the crash, while Vladimir Putin says Ukraine's military campaign against the separatists is to blame for this.

The black boxes may hold the key to the investigation. But who will control them?

We're covering all the angles of this story for you.

And, meanwhile, in Israel, how long will this ground operation last? And is the showdown with Hamas spinning out of control? We're going to go there live.

But, first, I want to get right to the latest on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, shot out of the sky over Ukraine.

Joining me now is CNN aviation correspondent Richard Quest.

Richard, good to have you here.

Chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto is in Washington, and also senior national correspondent Nic Robertson in Kiev.

And I'm glad to have all of you here.

Jim, first, 298 lives on this Malaysian plane. The U.S. says that it was shot down by a missile. What do we know at this point?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the U.S. taking two pieces of evidence to conclude this was shot down by a missile, based on U.S. assets in the region, one, that they detected a missile system radar locking on to the aircraft just before it was hit, and, two, detected the heat signature of a missile rising from the ground in the direction of the plane.

Based on those two things, it's comfortable concluding that a surface-to-air missile took this plane down. Now, the step they will not go is to who shot it down, or indeed on what side of the border, the Ukrainian side of the border or the Russian side of the border. Now, Ukrainian officials, they are going much further.

They're saying and blaming directly pro-Russian separatists, and, by association, Russian for arming those separatists. And the evidence they cite are a couple of things, one, a recorded phone call that they have, they claim to have between a pro-Russian militant and a Russian agent at the time that this plane was shot down talking about shooting this plane down.

LEMON: And, Jim, as you're talking about it, why don't we listen to part of that conversation, and then we will talk about it?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Well, we are 100 percent sure that it was a civilian plane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Are there a lot of people?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): (EXPLETIVE DELETED) The debris was falling straight into the yards.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What plane is that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I have figured out yet. I haven't got close to the main wreckage. Now I'm nearby the place where first bodies started falling.

Here are remnants of internal brackets, chairs, bodies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Are there any weapons?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Nothing at all. civilian belongings, medical scraps, towels, toilet paper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Are they any documents?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, one belonging to a student from Indonesia, from Thompson University.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As to this plane shot down nearby Snizhne-Torez, this turned out to be a passenger one. It fell down outside Grabovo. There is a whole lot of bodies of women and children. Cossacks are now looking around there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): On TV, they say like it is a Ukrainian AN-26, a transport plane. But the writing says Malaysia Airlines. What was it doing over the territory of Ukraine?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Well, then it was bringing spies. Why the hell were they flying? This is war going on.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Jim, before I speak to you about this, I need to say this, that MH17, the English subtitles, the identities of those speaking and their photos are provided by the Ukrainian government. CNN cannot independently confirm the veracity of this release.

But explain what this means to us. So, listen, I want you to explain what this means to us. But you hear -- if this conversation is indeed -- if it did go down and if it is who they say it, they're saying, who is on this plane? What do you see? I see children. I see women. I see a student I.D. I see toilet paper. Why is Malaysia Airlines flying in this region?

It's pretty damning, Jim.

SCIUTTO: It's very damning.

And, again, you're right to make that caveat. This is coming from Ukrainian authorities. U.S. authorities have not confirmed this. But the Ukrainian officials have I spoken with throughout the day couple this with other evidence, including a tweet that went up from a leader of the pro-Russian militants at the time the plane was shot down, first bragging that they had shot down a Russian military transport, an Antonov 26, which is also referenced in those recordings, claiming it, and then later deleting that tweet when it turned out it was a passenger plane, again, this coming from Ukrainian officials.

Now, the tweet you just put on the air there is another piece of evidence that Ukrainian officials have cited, and that is a picture of a Buk missile launcher which was captured by pro-Russian militants at the end of June. There is a picture there. And at the time it was captured, a leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic -- this is people's republic the pro-Russian separatists have declared in Eastern Ukraine -- bragging about having this missile system at the time.

And this is something that Ukrainian officials have mentioned to me many times today, saying that this is a missile system we know the militants have that has the range to strike at the altitude 33,000 feet. And they use that as part of their evidence for concluding, to the best of their knowledge, that pro-Russian separatists were behind this.

This is not a leap that U.S. officials are ready to make. In fact, there was a statement from the White House a short time ago saying there would be no further statements from President Obama until they have harder evidence.

LEMON: Right, until there is a little bit more information, or these at least a lot more information.

I want to get to Nic Robertson now, Nic here in studio with me.

You know, Nic, you were intently looking at the subtitles and listening to that phone call. What does that say to you?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This seems to be on the face of what the government is presenting is a very strong case against the separatists in the Donetsk area.

The government has pointed out that, in recent days, they have shot down an Antonov 26. That's an army, a Ukrainian army supply aircraft, that in the last two days they have shot down a Sukhoi 25, a fighter aircraft. The pilot in that case was able to parachute out safely over Ukrainian airspace and was over Ukraine and was picked up safely when he got on the ground.

But what the government is presenting here is a very strong package of evidence that we cannot independently verify that does put forward their position. And what we're hearing from the president here is that he's really trying to internationalize the situation by forming a commission, saying that this commission of investigation will involve help from the Dutch, from the Malaysians, and from the United States as well. He really wants to up the ante on those pro-Russian separatists

and get more international heft behind him to do that. And this is certainly a situation that he is going to try and use. So we can expect that the Ukrainian government here in Kiev to be putting forward a very strong anti-separatist message.

And certainly those recordings are really the tip of that right now, Don.

LEMON: All right, Nic.

Richard, I got a little bit ahead of myself. That question was meant for you, and I prefaced it and gave to it Nic.

But what do you make of the conversation that we were listening here in Washington?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's damning. It shows confusion. It shows misunderstanding. And it shows exactly how this sort of incident happens, if this is accurate, of course, these things happen.

The question becomes, was this an accident waiting to happen for any aircraft, any airliner flying over that part of Ukraine? And there were plenty of them, let me tell you, because although there had been restrictions over Crimea, in this part of Ukraine, there were no restrictions. There are now tonight.

LEMON: But, still, the question in there was, why were they flying in this particular airspace? It was because of weather. That was a question.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Absolutely, a couple of hundred miles difference between where -- the route they were supposed to take vs. the route that they were taking.

LEMON: Is this particularly dangerous, this route?

QUEST: With hindsight, yes, but, at the time, no.

The airspace from ground to 32,000 had been closed by the Ukrainians. Above 32,000 was open. This plane was not doing anything wrong being where it was. We can argue and discuss in the future whether with all these other incidents restrictions should have been placed. But when that pilot flew that route this morning, there was nothing wrong with doing so.

LEMON: All right, Nic Robertson, Jim Sciutto, everyone, stand by. Richard is going to come back with me a little bit later on in the show.

Right now, I want to tell you a bit about one of the 283 passengers on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Glenn Thomas was a former journalist for the BBC who got his dream job when he became a reporter for the World Health Organization. He was on his way to Melbourne via Kuala Lumpur for the 20th International AIDS Conference.

And his friends tell us that he had a goofy smile and an infectious laugh, a guy who fit in anywhere and could talk to anyone. He had a big heart and he was very kind.

So, joining me now on the phone to talk to him is a woman who knew Glenn Thomas very well. And her name is Gina Manola.

How are you doing?

GINA MANOLA, FRIEND OF PASSENGER: I'm fine. It's great to see the pictures of Glenn. It's hard to believe that he is gone.

LEMON: Tell me about your friend Glenn. You met him when he was a young reporter?

MANOLA: Right. We met when we were early 20s and he was a young reporter just starting out. He was doing some work in Chicago. And he was just great.

He was a really brave, curious person, adventurous. And a lot of people, I think, were drawn to him. He was just a really wonderful person.

LEMON: You had been in touch with him very recently on Facebook to celebrate his birthday in London, correct?

MANOLA: Well, his birthday is September 27. So he was hoping to gather all of his friends in London to celebrate what I believe would have been his 50th birthday.

So it would have been a big celebration for him.

LEMON: You were going to meet up with him in Chicago just a little while ago. But you guys, I understand, didn't connect. Why is that?

MANOLA: We didn't. You know, he had a fantastic trip planned, and I don't live too far from Chicago, but you always think you have plenty of time. And I told him I was sorry that I couldn't make it. And he said, don't worry, I will be back again. And I'm really sorry that I did not get to see him then.

LEMON: Gina, thank you very much. We're so sorry.

MANOLA: Yes. I also...

LEMON: Go ahead.

MANOLA: I just want to say, just in case his family is listening, how sorry I am. I know how proud he was of his niece Britney (ph) and nephew Jordan (ph). And my heart goes out to his sister Tracy (ph) and all of his friends who loved him.

He was a wonderful person doing great work in the world. And it's just an absolute tragedy. LEMON: Gina Manola, thank you. We appreciate you joining us.

Again, we're sorry for your loss and all the families as well.

Now I want to turn to the turmoil in another part of the world and that's the Middle East. The Israeli military has boots on the ground in Gaza tonight. They're targeting tunnels from Gaza into Israeli territory, and according to a statement from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's adviser.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer is live in Jerusalem with more on that.

That statement came from his media adviser. Wolf, there is an offensive under way there tonight. What is the very latest on that?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It continues. And it's probably going to escalate. Their initial target is these tunnels that Hamas has built going from Gaza specifically into Israel.

They released a video earlier in the day of one of these tunnels going to a kibbutz right near the Gaza border into Israel, an opening. About 13 Hamas guys came out. The Israelis released video showing that they then blasted that tunnel. But the Israelis feel they really can't destroy those tunnels from the air, from the sea.

So they have got to go in on the ground. That's priority number one for them. But they're going to try to do as much destruction of Hamas' military capability, the rockets and the missiles that they have as possible. So they have got a lot of troops there. I asked an Israeli military spokesman if they were in the hundreds or the thousands. He said there were thousands of Israeli troops on the ground in Gaza right now, presumably with heavy artillery and weapons, tanks, armored personnel carriers and all of those things.

And as you know, Don, it's a very, very concentrated, populated area, relatively small area. So there are going to be a lot of casualties.

LEMON: Wolf, we have been watching you. You have been in danger along with everyone else there. You have been taking cover. And, as I understand yesterday, we saw the deaths of four children from an Israeli military strike on the Gaza beach.

But there are reports that more children were killed today. What are you learning as you're there on the ground?

BLITZER: I know from our colleagues Ben Wedeman and Karl Penhaul, who are in Gaza, and other reporters who are there, there are a lot of civilian casualties. More than 200 Palestinians have been killed. Some of them are Hamas targets, Hamas leaders.

But there are a lot of women and children, elderly who inevitably get caught up. It's such a small area. And Hamas has put so much of their military capability in these populated areas. When the Israelis go after this, they try to avoid civilian casualties, but, inevitably, there are going to be some.

And there have been plenty this time around. Presumably, there will be a lot more as this military offensive on the ground continues.

LEMON: I think it's important to ask you, since you are there, and this breaking news is happening, this offensive is happening, I'm wondering if people are discussing this Malaysian plane crash. And is there any comparison as to what is happening there?

BLITZER: Yes, a lot of Israelis -- of course, they're all news junkies to begin with. So they watch the news. Their first priority is what is happening in Southern Israel, what is happening on the border with Gaza, what is happening in Gaza. And that's totally understandable.

But they're also watching what is happening with this Malaysian airliner, specifically because there have been threats to commercial airlines -- airliners coming into Ben Gurion Airport outside of Tel Aviv. And the Israelis take enormous precautions to protect those planes.

There was an incident. Right now, Hamas does not have the sophisticated ground-to-air missile capability that could knock out a commercial plane at 30,000 or 35,000 feet. They do have their shoulder-fired missiles. But they can't reach a commercial airliner at that height.

About -- I guess it must have been a year or so ago, the Israelis did get a report that Syria had made available to Hezbollah in Lebanon one of -- a surface-to-air missile similar to what we believe was used to knock out the Malaysian airliner. The Israelis got wind of that. It was in Lebanon. It

was then the Israelis sent their planes in and destroyed it. So they're very sensitive to this whole -- what happened in Ukraine. They know they have to work very, very hard to make sure nothing along those lines happens in Israel.

LEMON: Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem. Wolf, thank you very much.

Coming up, more on both of these breaking news stories, a showdown between Israel and Hamas, and a Malaysia Airlines plane with 298 people on board shot right out of the sky over Ukraine. Who is really behind this brutal attack?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.

A U.S. official is telling CNN that the White House does not think the government of Ukraine has air defenses in the region where Malaysia Flight 17 was shot down, though Ukraine may have those air defenses in other parts of the country.

Joining me now to discuss this is a former U.S. ambassador to Russia, is John Beyrle, also "New York Times" columnist Nick Kristof and our very own Fareed Zakaria, host of Fareed Zakaria GPS.

You're hearing what the White House is saying. Now we just got this again. The Obama says it does not think the government of Ukraine has defenses in the region where this flight went down.

You said it's important to talk about not only who may be responsible, but why this is happening.

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Right. I think what is important to understand, the government of Ukraine doesn't really control this part of Ukraine. This part of Ukraine is essentially controlled by pro-Russian separatists who have been funded, armed, trained by the Russian government, probably includes some Russian special operations forces or agents.

So the chance that the Ukrainian government would have done this, outside of the equipment issue, is very remote because they're not actually in charge of this area.

LEMON: Right.

ZAKARIA: And this points to the incredibly dangerous situation there, because Putin says he recognizes the Ukrainian government, he recognizes the government in Kiev, and he wants to work with them. But, simultaneously, he has maintained a special operation, essentially a kind of KGB special operations program that is actively destabilizing it, has essentially wrested control of other parts of the country, and al this is continuing to go on.

And we thought this crisis was stabilized. But that was -- this has exposed the reality is that the Russian government is trying to maintain a kind of de facto control over a large sliver of Ukraine.

LEMON: So even if Ukraine at one point had these Buk, or beech, or SA-11 missiles, at this point they're not in control of them, you believe?

(CROSSTALK)

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think that Ukraine has them, but not in that area, not in that part of Ukraine.

LEMON: Not in that part of the area.

Vladimir Putin is saying, listen, the whole reason that this happened is because they're fighting against him and they're fighting against these separatists.

KRISTOF: To me, that sounded a little like an admission, that he knows that it was the separatists and is trying to relay responsibility. But, obviously, that doesn't hold water.

And, look, it appears at this point as if the most likely scenario may be that it is those separatists who pushed the button. But even if they were on their own without Russian advisers, at the end of the day, Putin would bear responsibility.

LEMON: Would there be any reason for Russian separatists to deliberately shoot down a civilian airliner?

KRISTOF: No.

ZAKARIA: No. This was clearly -- you know, we saw in Crimea a kind of special ops that went very well, because Russia had no fingerprints on what was essentially an annexation.

But this is the dark side of using these rogue elements, people you don't really control. Yes, the Russians can claim, we're not doing it. But these people have a mind of their own. They're poorly trained. They're poorly equipped. Probably, their radars did not have the sophistication that Russian military radars do, which can distinguish between a civilian airliner and a military plane.

They thought this was a Ukrainian cargo plane. That's what that tweet suggests.

LEMON: All right.

So, Mr. Ambassador, U.S.-Russian relationships are already strained. How is this going to affect the tense relationship between Washington and Moscow? It's already tense.

JOHN BEYRLE, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Well, it's certainly not going to make it any better. And I think the fact that President Obama was actually on the phone today with President Putin when the plane went down, or at least when the first reports came out, indicates the degree to which the United States and Russia are going to need to stay in close contact, despite the difficulties involved in that.

The United States just yesterday announced the new round of sanctions against Russia over its support for the pro-Moscow separatists in Ukraine. It's been trying very hard to get the Europeans on side with those sanctions, because, without them, it could disadvantage American companies, which would lose their business.

Now I think the fact that you have had a civilian plane shot down with hundreds of Dutch, German, French citizens may have the effect of galvanizing the European resolve a bit more than had been the case. And I agree with something that I think Fareed said earlier. This is now an opportunity.

You will have a probably two- or three-day cease-fire for humanitarian reasons to allow the recovery of remains and hopefully some sort of international investigation to go on. That's an opportunity to expand it into a longer cease-fire and get to the negotiated settlement, which is the only way that this conflict will be settled.

LEMON: And, as of now, as we're on the air now, we know that it's 154 people from the Netherlands. It was 45 citizens from Malaysia and then Australia 27. But they lost the most. There are still people who are unidentified. If it turns out that there are Americans on board this plane, how does a U.S. response change then, if at all? BEYRLE: Well, if there were Americans on board, the first

response comes from the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, which has the responsibility to try to identify the remains and facilitate contact, notify the loved ones.

There's a lot of embassy work that needs to get done first and foremost. There will be time, I think, to look at the political and policy ramifications of all of that later on. But I think, if it turns out that there were Americans on board, it makes it as much of a tragedy as if there weren't Americans on board.

You have had a tremendous catastrophe, civilian, human catastrophe take place in a war zone that -- in a war that really doesn't need to be taking place. And I think, as I said earlier, there should be an opportunity now, if there is a will in Moscow and in Ukraine -- I believe there is a will in Ukraine -- to actually sit down and begin to talk this through and work it out.

LEMON: Yes, quickly.

ZAKARIA: I think the most important thing that this presents an opportunity to do is to drive home the idea the government of Ukraine has to be given control of its own territory. Russia has to allow that Kiev government to take control of these parts.

It's dangerous for the world, not just for Russia and Ukraine.

LEMON: And, Nick, if I can talk to about the unrest in the Middle East right now and the new ground operation, what is the endgame for Israel right here?

KRISTOF: Well, I mean, I think Israel's aim is to destroy launchers and to destroy tunnels.

You know, it has tried that in the past. And there was some -- temporary period of reducing firings, rocket firings. But it did not last. And I think, ultimately, to me, at least, it feels like a huge escalation of the problem, when what they need to be doing is to de- escalate.

LEMON: Nick Kristof, Fareed Zakaria, Ambassador Beyrle, thanks to all of you. Appreciate you joining us. We will see you throughout the coming days, for sure, here on CNN.

And up next: Ukrainian and Russian officials already trading angry words over who is to blame for Flight 17. What will it mean for a region already on the brink and the rest of the world, as a matter of fact?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back. The White House closely monitoring developments about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. President Barack Obama spoke by phone with Ukraine's President today, offering American assistance in the crash investigation.

Joining me now our senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta. Jim, I want to talk about the White House response.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Sure.

LEMON: What was the president -- what has he been doing to find out what happened and to contain this crisis?

ACOSTA: Yes. Well, Don, we should point out that President Obama should be back here at the White House at any moment. He was doing some fundraiser earlier this evening in New York. And just to point out, I did talk to a senior administration official earlier this evening who offered kind of an explanation as to why the President has been keeping somewhat a low profile on the Malaysian plane crash. He made some brief remarks about it as you'll recall earlier in the day. But he has basically stayed behind closed doors, making phone calls to world leaders and talking about this with his national security team. This official said that the administration, Don, basically wants to more precisely determine the facts that led to the crash before the President makes further comments.

At this point, the administration is confident in that assessment that a missile shot down the aircraft. But U.S. officials are still going through the flight manifest to determine whether there are any Americans on board and just how many. This official also noted that the NTSB and FBI will be sending officials out to Ukraine. And ultimately perhaps to the crash site in an advisory role to the Ukrainian government. So, there are things moving on behind the scenes, Don. You're just not seeing the president very much right now, because they want to be absolutely sure that they have the facts solid before they put them out there again.

LEMON: And you mentioned the Vice President also spoke on the U.S. understanding of what happened to the plane. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICE PRES. JOE BIDEN (D), UNITED STATES: An aircraft, a Malaysian aircraft heading from Western Europe to Kuala Lumpur as it crossed or is near the border of Ukraine and Russia apparently, I say apparently because I don't have the actual -- we don't have all the detail. I want to be sure of what I say. Apparently have been shot down. Shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That's pretty tough talk. And if there indeed are Americans that happen to be on this plane, we are likely to hear tougher language from the administration?

ACOSTA: I think that's absolutely right, Don. And we got a preview of that earlier today in the readout from the White House on the President's phone call with the Ukrainian President Poroshenko when the President said he wants to make sure that the wreckage at the site in Ukraine near the Russian border is protected. Don, that is a clear indication that this White House has absolutely no faith whatsoever in that wreckage being protected by those pro-Russian separatists. They're very concerned about that. That's why I'm hearing that FBI and NTSB officials will be

heading out to Ukraine and perhaps to the scene. But also keep in mind that tense conversation that the President had earlier today with Vladimir Putin when he told the Russian president that there is evidence that Moscow has been supplying heavy weapons to those pro- Russian separatists. So the president is certainly making it clear, at least behind closed doors that he's had enough of this. He is going to be spending much of the day tomorrow, Don, behind closed doors again in meetings with various senior administration officials.

He is heading off to Camp David tomorrow evening. But Don, I would not be surprised to see the President come out and speak to the cameras tomorrow, especially if there is more conclusive evidence as to whether or not those Americans or if there were Americans on board and exactly what happened, what brought down that plane. I think once they have those fax, we'll hear from the President.

LEMON: Jim Acosta at the White House for us tonight. Jim, thank you very much.

ACOSTA: Yes.

LEMON: We're joined now by retired Major General James 'Spider' Marks, a CNN military analyst and former commanding general of the U.S. Army Intelligence Center. Fran Townsend is with us as well, he is CNN's National Security analyst and former Bush Administration Homeland Security adviser. And Matthew Rojanski is with us, director of the Kennan Institute at the Wilson Center.

Spider Marks, to you first. Explain in general terms how one of these missiles is fired. I mean, is it a two-person process? Can they make an independent decision to choose a target and then attack? And does it go up, you know, a chain of command, first?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES 'SPIDER' MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Don, you're correct in that it can be an independent process. If the Russians have established either a tight control system or a loose control system, I'm not going to be arcane here, but if it's a loose control system, that means the individual operators of that transporter erecter launcher, that mobile air defense system can engage targets at will based on certain profiles. So what that means is they see an aircraft at altitude. It doesn't transpond in a way that they can interrogatory it, they can figure out what it is. Their initial reading is that it's a military aircraft. So they fire because they have the authority to fire. They certainly can do all that. What you prefer to have is some backup systems and some redundancies worked into that system. And in this case, clearly that was not the case.

LEMON: Fran, can I talk to you about this Russian media report that the missile strike was actually an attempt to shoot down Vladimir Putin's plane, which was in the area at the time and painted with similar colors as there are on the Malaysia planes, any chance of that?

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, Don, we're reluctant, right, to follow sort of some of these, you know, we hear a lot of speculation. We hear, you know, there is a lot on social media. Some of it is accurate. Some of it is not. And at this early stage, you know, we've got to be really careful to distinguish between what we know as facts and sort of what some theories are. This is one of them, that there was some -- that there was an idea that what they were targeting was Vladimir Putin's plane. It doesn't make much sense to me, right?

This is what we believe at the moment, not yet confirmed is that the air defense system that was used to bring down this plane was Russian system provided by the Russians. And so, the likelihood that these separatists who have gotten military and sort of political support from Putin and the Russian administration would attack him seems ridiculous to me. I mean, it seems unlikely. But, again, we're still working to gather facts to really understand not only who did it, but what the motivations were.

LEMON: All right. Stay with me, everyone. Matthew, we're going to get to you when we come back out of this break. I'm going ask what Vladimir Putin is likely to do in response to this tragedy. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. You're looking at Air Force One. The President arriving at Joint Base Andrews this evening. He was -- had made a trip to New York. And of course he spoke out earlier today on the situation in Ukraine. The door has not opened. The President has not gotten off the plane. They're waiting to get off the plane. But again, there is the President arriving back in Washington, D.C. now, of course headed to the White House in just a little bit.

So everyone, we're talking about this tragedy, of course, of flight 17. So we're back with everyone. Back with me now is Major General James 'Spider' Marks, Fran Townsend, and also Matthew Rojansky. Matthew, you know, this is a question that I promised you before the break. What is Vladimir Putin likely to do as a response to this crisis?

MATTHEW ROJANSKY, DIRECTOR, KENNAN INSTITUTE, WILSON CENTER: So, I think if you look at the evidence so far, Putin has made a lot of hay out of plausible deniability. Whether you're talking about weapons that may have moved from Russia across the border into Ukraine, command and control, the general was talking to them earlier, loose or tight, the Russians deny that they're actually calling the shots. They claim that this is the separatists. This is a war in Ukraine between one Ukrainian faction and another Ukrainian faction. I think it's going to be very important to Putin in continuing to maintain that premise that he'll point to evidence that came out last week, some evidence this week of the rebels claiming that they got a hold of sophisticated air defense equipment from Ukrainian units, that they had captured it in Ukraine itself.

So that provides the distance on the level of the equipment. They will deny that they're in command. And we've seen that all also in the evidence coming out. These wiretapped phone calls on what seem to be open mobile phone lines. That's not very sophisticated. That doesn't look like it's the Russian military. This is, you know, guys talking to each other on the cell phones. So I think Putin is going to continue to make hay out of this plausible deniability.

LEMON: General, Russia has been increasingly viewed as belligerent, as threatening its neighbors, taking over territory. Is it time to take this threat more seriously?

MARKS: Well, it's absolutely time to do that. In fact I would say we have routinely understood the Russians to be very skeptical of their neighbors and have always tried desperately and frankly quite effectively to stir things up on the near abroad. I mean, they don't have any natural borders other than those that they can create to distance themselves from potential enemies and they mostly view everybody who is. So, sure, we absolutely need to be able to take this very, very seriously.

And that part of Ukraine right now is essentially ungoverned space. When you have ungoverned space, you have these kinds of opportunities and these kind of calamities that will arise. And so we frankly sadly should not be surprised by this. We simply don't know who is the one whose finger is on the trigger. But clearly this is Russian kit. Whether it's in Ukraine or it's in Russia, it was developed and it was exported by the Russians and used by their forces.

LEMON: We don't know, but it appears at this point the evidence is leading in one direction. Fran, listen, I don't know if you heard the Australian foreign minister today, Julie Bishop. She says that MH17 was shot down. If it was shot down, it is an unspeakable crime. Twenty seven Australians on board this flight. I mean, is it a crime? And if so, what is the recourse there?

TOWNSEND: Well, I mean, certainly if it was -- you could call it terrorism, frankly. But there is a crime -- let me step back. I hesitate because let me step back for a moment. There certainly may be, if you can prove an intentional targeting of a civilian aircraft, absolutely it's a crime. There is international conventions protecting civil aviation. Short of proving intent, that is to shoot down a civilian aircraft, even if it's an accident, yes, there is a crime. First of all, here in the United States, when an American is killed this way, in the targeting of a civilian aircraft, the FBI may or may not have jurisdiction.

We know that they're going to offer to provide an advisory role. Certainly they will work with the embassy, the U.S. Embassy will work to recover the remains. But the FBI will advise and assist as they are permitted to. In case they need to be involved in the collection of evidence. Sometimes that's just to determine, Don, whether or not a crime has been committed. But for sure, American officials will look at all those possibilities. A lot of this is going to have to depend on the facts as they unfold in the next hours and days.

LEMON: All right. Everyone stick with me here. We have a lot more to get to. When we come right back, what we know about flight 17 and the many unanswered questions in the worldwide investigation. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. So as we were in the break, the President got on the helicopter and he is headed now of course to the White House. He is at Joint Base Andrews, the President and his wife, left the plane. And also visited New York today, speaking out about this crash, or this possibility of this plane being shot down in Ukraine. And there you see the President on the helicopter.

Welcome back, everyone. We know now that -- we believe that Malaysia Airlines flight 17 was shot out of the sky and all 298 people on board were killed. However, there are still a lot of unanswered questions. And the most important one is why was it shot down?

Joining me now with more on the investigation is Matthew Wald, he's a reporter for "The New York Times." And also Richard Quest is back with me as well. Richard, I wanted to ask you in the beginning but we ran out of time, there are reports that the scene was being contaminated and it would make it harder for this investigation.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Yes. By definition, any time there is a plane crash, you want to secure the scene, you want to make it as clean and sterile as possible in the sense that you don't want any external influences on it because you want to protect the wreckage. That's going to be not only a crime scene as to what happened in this case potentially, but also for accident investigation. There is also a very less savory side of it. And this is a biohazard as well. There are people, there are bodies, human remains that have to be treated with respect and that could also be diseases.

LEMON: So who should lead this investigation?

QUEST: In terms of -- that's the big question. I mean, Ukrainians are already saying they're doing it. Should it be somebody else? But who else would it be? Should it be the Europeans, a combination of the BEA of France, the AAIB? That's going to be the big issue.

LEMON: Yes.

QUEST: That will be ACAO (ph) is coming.

LEMON: Matthew, let's talk a little bit more about that. Because the fact that the plane came down in territory controlled by Russian separatists.

MATTHEW L. WALD, NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER: Right.

LEMON: Suggest that they will have control of the flight's black box. Who should they give it to and who will they give it to, as a matter of fact?

WALD: The interesting question is what language was the crew speaking to each other. If they were speaking in Malay, they're going to need someone to translate that, the cockpit voice recorder they can probably decode. The flight data recorder tends to differ from airplane to airplane. I don't think the Ukrainians are equipped or even the Russians possibly to decode the flight data recorder from a 777. Boeing could do it in a snap. But let's go back to the wreckage itself. Those photos you showed showed burning wreckage. This is the first 777 we've got on the ground, the first crash.

Oddly, the Malaysian airplane before also crashed, but we haven't found the wreckage. These younger airplanes, more modern airplanes are more and more composite, and they burn. They come down in smaller pieces and they burn. What you look for in a shoot-down or an explosion is the condition of the metal. Are there shrapnel holes? Are there pedaled holes? Entry wounds and exit wounds where something went through the air frame? Are there bends in the metal characteristics of high explosives? There is metal on this plane and somebody skilled and probably founded out there and make some diagnosis if in fact you don't think that the U.S. satellite data was conclusive.

LEMON: Is there a concern of tampering? I asked Richard about the scene being contaminated. Is there a concern about tampering at the site?

WALD: Well, I suppose some evidence could disappear. Tampering would be a slightly different question. No. I think, you know, if you get the cockpit voice recorder, you may end up catching conversation among the crew. This has happened before in airplanes that were shot down where it's clear the pilots are talking to each other about damage to the airplane. They know what has happened. And that would help make this clearer.

LEMON: We will get the recorder?

QUEST: Well, in this situation there is no reason why we shouldn't. Yes, it's a very violent fire that has taken place and a very violent crash. But this thing is designed as we talked many times.

LEMON: The reason I asked you is because the international community, there are going to be many members of the international community wanting to get in on this investigation. The question is, will they be allowed to get in?

WALD: You know, there is a precedent. The precedent is when the soviets shot down Korean airlines WOO7, and they said they recovered nothing. The father of a young college student was on that airplane, Hans Ephraimson went to Moscow, went to Gorbachev and brought back the black boxes. And that CVR, that cockpit voice recorder told a lot.

LEMON: Go ahead, Richard.

QUEST: Yes. I think what will happen here is that yes, you start off with who should investigate and you start off with how this investigation will take place. But ultimately, the international community is going to demand that there is a proper full investigation.

LEMON: All right, everyone. Stay with me. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. Just a few months ago, the world watched the anguish of the families of flight 370 as it slowly became apparent that they would not be getting their loved ones back. And now it seems to be happening again for the families of flight 17.

Back now with Matthew L. Wald and also Richard Quest. Malaysia Airlines Matthew having to deal again with this tragedy and dealing with the families.

WALD: It's astounding. At least these people know where their dead are. I wonder about something else, though, whether this will have some wider impact. We've been noticing the 100th anniversary of the beginning of World War I. This is like the 21st Century Lusitania. The German uboat sank the Lusitania changed public opinion, brought the U.S. into World War I. I don't think -- is going to war with Ukraine or Russia but this sure does focus attention on just a horrible, stupid problem.

LEMON: Yes. He makes a very good point though.

QUEST: And following on from that very good point Matthew has made, the Malaysian prime minister was quite resolute. He wants whoever was responsible to be brought to justice, the perpetrators could be handed over.

LEMON: Can you believe, we were talking about these families not long ago for 370. And now here we are again.

QUEST: Absolutely. All over the world.

LEMON: All over the world. All right. Thank you very much, guys.

It is the top of the hour. And I'm Don Lemon. This is CNN TONIGHT. Thank you so much for joining us.