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At This Hour

MH-17 Likely Brought Down by Missile; Israel Launches Ground Assault in Gaza; Russian Ambassador to UN Speaks; Interview with Sen. Mark Kirk; Obama to Speak Soon

Aired July 18, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman. Michaela Pereira is off today.

A hectic morning with two major stories breaking @THISHOUR, both involving regional conflict with innocent civilians paying now with their lives.

Israel raising the stakes, sending tanks into, Gaza suggesting it will widen its boots-on-the-ground against Hamas.

And the other story that has drawn condemnation around the world, the downing of a passenger jet in Ukraine, shot nearly, nearly 300 people from at least 10 nations killed.

President Obama will be speaking about this @THISHOUR, the situation in Ukraine. He'll be talking from Washington. You can see that here live at 11:30 a.m. Eastern time.

Who shot down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 out of the sky, why did they do it, and will they be held accountable? These are all questions we will address ahead @THISHOUR as this very complex investigation gets under way.

These are the latest details that CNN has learn from our sources all around the globe. U.S. intelligence officials concluding that pro- Russian rebels likely fired the missile that brought this plane down.

And just a short time ago, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Samantha Power, delivered a fascinating speech from the floor of the United Nations, saying that the U.S. cannot rule out the possibility that these rebels received assistance from knowledgeable Russian personnel. She called on Russia to end the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

Ukrainian officials saying 181 of the 298 bodies have been recovered so far, accusing Russia of covering up evidence of its role in this case. And the NTSB and the FBI say they plan to send investigators to Ukraine to try to get some answers.

An international team of experts reportedly has arrived at the site. One piece of evidence could prove to be key, a phone call reportedly between pro-Russian militants moments after the missile brought the plane down. The call was intercepted, recorded, and released by Ukraine secret service.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Untranslated foreign language).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Untranslated foreign language).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: We have so many questions, so many developments this morning. We are all over them. Our Chris Cuomo is in Ukraine, Michelle Kosinski at the White House, Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem, Jim Sciutto in Washington, and Richard Quest here with me in New York.

Michelle, I want to start with you at the White House because in less than 30 minutes we're expecting the president to deliver a statement on this situation in Ukraine.

Tensions so high between these two nations right now, the United States and Russia, what do you expect the president to say?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House specifically now isn't giving any guidance on what the specifics will be or even what the generalities will be leading up to this speech which will happen very soon.

But there are really three categories that we want to know about. The questions that have lingered are, what about Americans on board? What do we know about that

We know the question has been raised that there could have been people on that plane not traveling on an American passport, but they could have held dual citizenship, and that means that, yes, they could even live within the United States. We're hoping the president will shed some light on that.

Also, what will be the U.S. involvement? We already know that the Ukrainians have specifically asked for assistance. The U.S. has offered that. Ukrainians would love to see the NTSB there. The foreign minister said that specifically in an interview just this morning.

So what will we send? What kind of teams of people? Will it be the NTSB? Will it be the FBI? And what is the time frame of that? We're really looking for some guidance on what the U.S. can do, especially in light of the fact that this area and this site is not controlled by the Ukrainian government, even though it's within their territory.

I mean, this incident has made it really clear how little control they have in certain of these areas, because apparently the separatists that controlled this site within Donetsk are not even letting Ukrainian officials in at this point.

As you mentioned, those international monitors apparently are in the area, but we're waiting to see if they get any access.

Also, you know, what is the relationship? We know basically that this is going to further deteriorate the U.S. and Russian relationship, and the U.S. and Russia do coordinate on a number of important international issues right now, like Iran and like Syria.

Well, what is this going to do? I mean, it's clear that even if this was as it appears to be, according to U.S. officials, a shoot down by separatists. The U.S. has said repeatedly for months now that they believe that these separatists are significantly controlled by Russia, so inevitably it seems to be going to be some Russian responsibility here that's going to have to be acted upon by the international community.

BERMAN: How far will the president go in accusing the Russians of complicity here? We'll hear the president's statement. It is a crucial statement in about 25 minutes.

Michelle Kosinski, thank you so much.

I want to bring in our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, now, also from Washington.

Jim, just a few minutes ago, we heard the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Samantha Power, lay out really a prosecutorial case against the pro-Russian rebels right now in the eastern part of Ukraine, explaining why the U.S. believes they were responsible and why it is so crucial that impartial investigators can get access to this site and that Russia doesn't get in the way of that.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. I spoke to a senior Ukrainian official this morning who is accusing Russia of a cover up here for two reasons.

One, the Ukrainians say they have evidence that this Buk missile system, this Russia surface-to-air missile system, which U.S officials now believe was responsible for shooting down this plane, was moved across the border from Ukraine into Russia overnight, in effect to take the evidence away, Ukrainian officials say.

They also say that the black boxes from the plane, they believe, were taken across the border from Ukraine to Russia by pro-Russian separatists.

In addition, as Michelle mentioned, still Ukrainian authorities are being denied access to the crash scene.

So Ukrainian officials accusing a cover up under way with Russian involvement.

The big question now is, what is the hard evidence that Russia was involved here? U.S. officials have said for weeks now that Russia is backing up, instigating, arming, providing intelligence support to the rebels.

You now have the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Samantha Power, saying on the floor of the U.N. that there is a possibility that Russian separatists wouldn't have the skill to operate this missile system on their own, that they would need Russian helped to do it. That's an alarming charge because that takes it a step further. It's not just that Russia is indirectly responsible for this by aiding and abetting the rebels and providing the circumstances for the rebels to control so much territory in eastern Ukraine but the accusation of direct Russian involvement in firing the missile that took down the plane.

That is a dramatic accusation. We're not there yet but U.S. officials saying that they are looking into that that, clearly, with Samantha Power's comments.

BERMAN: It is a dramatic accusation, a bold statement by the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, to be sure.

Jim Sciutto, thanks very much for that.

We just did get a piece of new information in. There have been a lot of questions about whether Americans were on board this flight, MH-17. This is what we now know, that no passengers checked in using U.S. passports. No passengers checked in using U.S. passports.

The United States continues to look further to see if it's possible that there were American nationals there, perhaps not checking in with American passports, but at a minimum, no one checked in with those passports. That a very many just coming in at this moment.

I want to bring in Richard Quest right now, of course our aviation expert. We heard Jim Sciutto talking about the idea hat this investigation right may be hampered at some level by the Russians, that some of the evidence, the military evidence right there might be obscured, hidden, moved, in fact, to Russia.

But what about the scene of the crash itself, the crime scene, the investigation scene that we now believe is under control of the pro- Russian rebels?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: I think it's no understatement to say this is a mess. I mean, in any crash situation, you secure the area. You get the experts in. They comb through the debris. They find the wreckage that they need to look at to work out what happened. They recover the black boxes, the cockpit voice recorders and the data recorder. And you do it in an extremely meticulous way.

Here you have perhaps well-meaning volunteers, you have amateurs, walking all over the site, causing, frankly, great risk to themselves, biohazard and chemical hazard and the like, but you also have a contamination of what's there, because the crucial piece of fuselage may be moved.

It may be inadvertent. I'm not suggesting somebody poofs it all off to Moscow. And this is very worrying. It really is.

So we do need to have the separatists' agreement to have a cease-fire so that people can get in there. The investigators can start doing their job. BERMAN: You bring up a great point. By all accounts, there are people

there who mean to do good --

QUEST: Absolutely.

BERMAN: -- who are trying to help with the situation.

However, there are also impartial, international investigators now on site as well as perhaps NTSB officials headed there. These are the type of people who need to get in.

QUEST: Not only that. They need to get in. They need to remove the evidence so they can look at it forensically in proper laboratories, and then you need to have an investigation begin.

And the Ukrainian government is the legitimate authority to host this investigation. I'm not saying whether they should or shouldn't. They are the legitimate ones under the treaty.

BERMAN: Obviously getting to that site and seeing it will be crucial not just for investigators but also our reporters.

And we have one of the best right now, Chris Cuomo on the way to that site right now. Chris joins me now by phone from Ukraine on the long drive to this region in eastern Ukraine where this all went down.

Chris, what are you seeing? What have you heard so far?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY" (via telephone): Well, John, I've got to tell you right now. It's a tale of two realities. In and around Kiev, there's definitely tension. People are worried about what comes next, that this was emboldening to the militants in that area.

You know, even the vocabulary is tricky right now. Richard's using the word "separatists." Here in Kiev they say, don't use the word "separatists," because that assumes people want to live there and be happy. These people are destroying infrastructure.

So here the government calls them "militants" or "terrorists."

But I'll tell you this. Forget about it being a mess. This is dangerous. You've spent a lot of time, John -- more than most -- in war zones. That's what the eastern part of Ukraine is right now.

We've ignored it because of other things that have taken up U.S. media attention, but it's very hot right now and there is no collective agreement among the militants there, so the idea that they would let anyone, let alone Ukraine authorities, come in and run an investigation is a very poor-based conclusion.

We're heading there right now. Put it this way. This morning, the foreign minister -- you remember I was interviewing him when you were anchoring "NEW DAY" -- he said, this is great to talk to you, gave us great information. Maybe you want to come with our people when we send them out there. He later then said, you know what? That may not be the best idea. It is not safe for Ukraine authorities or military there. They are not in control of the area. So we're going to have to feel our way through as we get farther east.

There's no question the crime scene is contaminated. There are horrible and morbid stories and rumors coming out of what's being done in that scene. There's no question it's not going to be a controlled site, and I think that has to be kept in mind.

This is an active, violent environment, not just about an accident or somebody shooting down an airplane. It's somebody shooting down an airplane in the midst of real, ongoing conflict.

BERMAN: And finding the truth might not be safe. That is so key to what you are saying.

Chris Cuomo on the ground heading to this crash site in eastern Ukraine, keep us up dated on your progress and please keep safe.

Now everything we've been talking about right now, the shooting down of MH Flight 17 is a major, international event with major, international consequences. It is not the only such event taking place in the world right now.

We're going to go now to Israel. Israeli ground troops, tanks have invaded Gaza, crossed the border there for their ground operation. There are now Israeli boots on the ground now in Gaza.

Wolf Blitzer joins me now from Jerusalem to give us a sense of the latest on what's happening there. Wolf?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, "THE SITUATION ROOM": The Israeli operation, John, is continuing. and the prime minister himself, Benjamin Netanyahu says it will expand.

The initial goal, the Israeli military officials and others say, is to go after those tunnels, tunnels that have been built over the past several years by Hamas, tunnels that go from Gaza into Israel.

The Israelis have evidence of those tunnels. They shown pictures of those tunnels. They also have video of 13, what they call Hamas terrorists emerging from one of those tunnels the other day at a kibbutz, an Israeli farm outside of Gaza.

So the Israelis says they can't destroy those tunnels by air power alone. They need to go in on the ground. That's why not hundreds but thousands of Israeli troops have gone in with tanks, armed personnel carriers. This is a significant military move into Gaza. That's objective number one, as far as the Israelis are concerned.

The other objectives, going after Hamas's stockpiles of rockets and missiles, more than a thousand have been launched into Israel over the past 10 days or so, but Israeli intelligence believes they have about 10,000 or so. They are going to try to find and destroy as many as they possibly can. And the third objective is to go after other military-related targets in Gaza. The Israelis don't know how much time they have before international pressure mobilizes, some sort of cease-fire comes into play. Presumably it will, sooner rather than later.

They say their goal is not to stay in Gaza, not to reoccupy Gaza. They withdrew from Gaza back in 2005. It's to destroy these military capabilities of Hamas and then get out.

BERMAN: All right, Wolf Blitzer for us in Jerusalem, this operation in Gaza ongoing with the possibility very much of intensifying. Wolf will stay on it, of course, for us.

Coming up next, President Obama will deliver a statement on the situation in Ukraine. We will bring that to you live the minute it happens.

Plus, with both Russia and Ukraine now exchanging blame, the focus has shifted to Vladimir Putin. How much is he to blame? We'll speak to a U.S. senator calling for a much tougher U.S. response to Russia. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Welcome back, we are continuing our breaking news coverage of the shooting down of MH-17 over Ukraine. You are looking at a live picture now from the United Nations. This is a key moment happening right now. The Russian ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, is delivering a statement, perhaps an explanation of the Russian role, involvement or noninvolvement, in the shooting down of this plane. Let's try to listen to what he has to say.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

VITALY I. CHURKIN, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS (via translator): It is a difficult situation. We think it would be right to create an international commission under (inaudible). Mr. President, any normal person I'm sure first and foremost a question would arise. Why did the Ukrainian aviation dispatcher send a passenger flight to an area of military clashes, an area which was being used for carrying out strikes against civilian parties amongst others and where there were anti aircraft systems working.

Ensuring the security and effective use of civilian aviation in an airspace in a state is the responsibility of that state, in line with international standards. On the territory where the flight is being carried out, the state must provide aviation information necessary for ensuring the security of aviation. International law plans for the possibility of the timely closure by the state of areas that are dangerous for flights.

It would seem that there would need to be investigation not only in the disaster but also to the extent to which the Ukrainian aviation authorities carried out their obligations, and did everything necessary to ensure that the military campaign of Kiev would prevent disasters from occurring. Today, Kiev declared a full closure of the airspace in the conducting of the so-called anti terrorism by the region.

(END LIVE FEED)

BERMAN: You've been listening to the Russian ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, delivering a statement on the shooting down of mh-17. What is interesting is, at least the part we heard right there, he wasn't talking about who may have shot the plane down or why. What he was talking about was the idea that Ukrainian air traffic control should have never have let that plane fly over that area because it was a conflict zone. Interesting that he chose to focus on that and not the culpability for actually shooting the plane down.

I want to bring in Republican Senator Mark Kirk from Illinois right now. He was one of first members of Congress to call for a really tough response to Russia's moves in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine over the last several months. over the crisis in Ukraine.

Senator, thank you so much for joining us right now. As you know, in just a matter of minutes, President Obama will be delivering a response from the White House on this situation in Ukraine, and the situation with this plane that was shot down. What do you want to hear from the President?

SEN. MARK KIRK (R), ILLINOIS: I want to hear that the Department of Justice will bring one hell of a wrongful death suit against Russia assets that are located in the United States to make sure there is a significant cost paid by Russia for this action of shooting down an international airliner with a weapons system that is directly related to the Russian forces.

BERMAN: Do you blame Russian President Vladimir Putin for the lose of 298 lives?

KIRK: It does appears the Buk missile system is so complicated that it would need a back-up from a nation state, like Russia. That would mean that Russian armed forces are directly involved in this wrongful death of roughly 300 people.

BERMAN: What you are suggesting is something that Samantha Power alluded to at the United Nations, that this Buk missile system is so complicated that they can't rule out the possibility that Russian advisers somehow assisted these pro Russian rebels in firing it at this Malaysian aircraft, this commercial aircraft.

You say you want a wrongful death suit then against the perpetrators here, but if you think that Vladimir Putin is in some way culpable, I'm sorry, is a lawsuit enough? Do more serious international actions need to be taken against Russia?

KIRK: My guess is that Luke Oil has a number of assets here in the United States, that Russia should pay a significant cost inside the Untied States for this act. They should always realize tens of millions of dollars will be lost for their international assets because of actions like this and get control of their armed forces, to make sure there's effective command and control. I would have another suggestion that there is a system called DIRCM,

which could potentially defeat heat seeking missiles looking to shot down a civilian airliner. It is an active defense system. DIRCM cost about $2 million each to blind a heat seeking missile that is coming at you. I realize that the Buk system was a radar guided system that spoofing the system would be -- not possible for DIRCM guided system.

BERMAN: Senator Mark Kirk calling for a, I think, a stiffer position on sanctions as well as a wrongful death suit against the perpetrators. Thank you so much for being with us. I really appreciate it.

I want to bring in Michael O'Hanlon now. Senior fellow and director of foreign policy research from the Brookings Institute.

Michael, thank you so much for being with us today, it has been a remarkable morning, it has been a remarkable 24 hours here in the world of international relations. We heard Samantha Powers at the United Nations saying that she can't rule out the possibility that Russian assistance was somehow given to these pro-Russian rebels who the United States believes are now responsible for shooting down this plane. What does this do? How does this complicate this very tense relationship between the United States and Russia?

MICHAEL O'HANLON, DIRECTOR OF FOREIGN POLICY RESEARCH, BROOKINGS INSTITUTE: Well, it's a moment where I think in this terrible tragedy, in this very sad loss of life, we need to try to find an opportunity to bring greater pressure on Putin because, as you know, he's been able to sort of fool some people. He's been able to make it appear that he's not being as aggressive as he was earlier this year in regard to Crimea, and doing things just barely under the table.

Our intelligence has gradually figured out what he's been up to, but he has played the game and, sort of, dialed the rheostat just to a point where he can create some havoc and mayhem in eastern Ukraine without sending in his own forces or doing something over the threshold that's going to cause Western European retaliation in particular.

As you know, earlier this week the Obama administration had decided to intensify sanctions, after gathering all this information, but they hadn't persuaded America's key allies in Western Europe, who do a lot more trade with Russia than we do. And now we have a moment to try and persuade our allies and it's not so much in retribution for this terrible act, although I think some of that is appropriate, and I don't disagree with Senator Kirk, but it's more looking forward to make sure there's deterrence so that this doesn't get even worse, the conflict in Ukraine doesn't get even worse.

I think we have to force Putin's hand, to make a choice. Which does he want? Does he want his economy to function, or does he want to leave Ukraine alone? He can't destabilize Ukraine and still have his economy. We have to force that decision in his mind.

BERMAN: You know, more than half the passengers of that flight were Dutch. A key member of NATO. One would think this really puts the Russian leader and Russia in a corner right now. You would see an increase of pressure in Europe, these key economic powers that had been hesitant to pressure Russia directly to stop their actions in Ukraine.

O'HANLON: That's right. And for that reason I can't imagine that even if there was some Russian complicity in this, that it was intentional to shot down that particular airliner, or any civilian airliner, but it doesn't really matter. Russia is playing a ridiculous game, a brutal game that it shouldn't be involved in and now is the moment to try to get them to stop and bring the full brunt of possible large scale western sanctions to bear as a threat.

BERMAN: Michael O'Hanlon, thank you so much for being with us.

As I said, it's been a hectic morning here at CNN covering major stories developing all around the world. I'm joined now by CNN anchor Jake Tapper, host of "THE LEAD" on CNN, 4 p.m. Eastern Time.

And Jake, it strikes me that 48 hours ago, we were talking about the crisis at the border, the immigration crisis at the border. That was overwhelming all the discussion in Washington. Thirty hours ago we were talking about a new round of sanctions from the U.S. against Vladimir Putin in Russia. So many balls in the air, so many crises for this White House to manage at once. What do you expect to hear from the President and how will the White House deal with all of this at once?

JAKE TAPPER, HOST, "THE LEAD": You didn't even mention the crisis unfolding in Gaza right now with the Israeli Defense Force launching a ground invasion of that country. I expect President Obama to be talking about not only offering condolences but calling for a way to internationalize the wreckage site. Calling for those who control the ground in eastern Ukraine, the pro Russian separatists, to allow teams from the United Nations, teams from OSCE, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, onto the grounds to make sure that there is a full and thorough investigation. That no materials are removed from the site.

And this is something of a challenge. It's throwing the gauntlet to these separatists and in a way to Putin himself, John, because if these separatists do not allow this, the belief by the Obama administration, according to officials with whom I've spoken, is that will be self-incriminating, the idea that they won't let international inspectors on to the site. So that's what I expect, John.

BERMAN: It is interesting, Jake, that so far, and we're about 24 hours now into this crisis, the White House and the President himself has been somewhat reserved in its direct criticism of Vladimir Putin. Obviously, U.S. intelligence officials and security officials raising a lot of questions saying what they suspect, that it was pro Russian rebels, but you haven't seen the scathing language yet from the President.

TAPPER: That's true. Although, the statement that the White House put out last night did put what happened, did put this tragedy within the greater context of Russia fueling this separatist movement. We're going to devote our global team of analysts and reporters to getting all the latest details and answers about the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines jet over Ukraine.

We have Michelle Kosinski, she is at the White House, Wolf Blitzer, of course, in Jerusalem, Jim Sciutto in Washington D.C., Richard Quest in New York City. Let's go right to Michelle at the White House. What are you expecting the President to say?

MICHELE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well I don't think it's going to be anything specific at this point. The White House isn't giving a lot of guidance ahead of this address, which we now understand is going to be delayed, possibly by about a half hour. We're looking at about a noontime for this presidential address. But there are a couple of categories that we want to hear about, that there hasn't been clarity on up to this point as these events have been developing. First of all, were there Americans on that flight or not?

Hopefully there will be some guidance from the White House, if they have been able to gather that. Up until now they have been trying to figure that out themselves. We know that people have not checked in to that flight with American passports. The question is if there were people of dual citizenship, were there in fact Americans on that flight who just didn't use their American passports. Also, what will the U.S. do? Is a big question.

We've mentioned the NTSB, the FBI, U.S. intelligence as possibilities, and the President pledged to Ukraine, U.S. experts that would give all possible assistance immediately.