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Don Lemon Tonight

Stunning New Images of MH-17 Crash Site; 251 Bodies of Victims Discovered; Pro-Russian Rebels Claim They Have Black Boxes; Putin Urges Cooperation; Hamas Claims To Have Captured an Israeli Soldier; U.N. Security Council Holding Emergency Meeting

Aired July 20, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. This is a special Sunday edition of CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. 10:00 p.m. on the East Coast. And we are live with two big breaking news stories tonight.

In Ukraine, day is dawning at the scene of the crash of Flight 17. And we have stunning new images of the site collected today by air bus defense & space analyzed by all source analysis. They show just how big the area is, more than 1300 acres. Two hundred and fifty one bodies have been reportedly been discovered and are being loaded into refrigerated cars on two trains in the rebel strong hold of Torres (ph).

Pro-Russian rebels also say they may have the black boxes. But will they turn them over?

And meantime, Secretary of State John Kerry blasts what he calls drunken separatists interfering with evidence at crash site.

Vladimir Putin has made a statement urging cooperation. We are going to bring you that as soon as we get it here on CNN.

And in Gaza, Hamas says it is holding a captured Israeli soldier following the deadliest day yet in the show down between Israel and Hamas militants.

The U.N. Security Council is holding an emergency meeting right now in New York on a day that also saw hundreds of Jewish New Yorkers rallying in Times Square in support of Israel. We will have the latest on both of those stories for you.

CNN reporters live all around the globe. Martin Savidge is in Jerusalem for us. Ivan Watson in Donetsk, Ukraine. We are going to start with Ivan.

Ivan, the very latest on the situation at the crash site?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

Well, the situation has improved in the last day with the separatists allowing international OSCE monitors more access to the scene. Some Ukrainian government officials who have also been able to move to the area. And there's been a collection of some of the victims' bodies moved to several refrigerated train cars, two trains. And we don't know the destination of those trains.

The Ukrainian government saying, as you mentioned, at least 251 bodies have been identified as well as scores of fragments. We don't know the exact location of the black boxes from the plane. One of the leaders of the separatists here has announced a certain number of technical objects, as he described it, have been recovered. But they are not entirely sure whether or not they are the black boxes.

The OSCE international monitors say they have not yet seen black boxes. So that's another mystery at this point.

The Dutch and Malaysian governments, they says that they are sending some of their officials to Ukraine right now. The Dutch say that they want to set up in the eastern city of Harkiv, that's in the control of the Ukrainian government. They want to set up there, some kind of an operation center for identifying the bodies. And moving some of the bodies of the Dutch victims, of course, back to Holland right now.

And we have also heard now from the Russian president Vladimir Putin, who issued a statement calling this a tragic event. He has called on all parties to stop the bloodshed, Don, and added that, quote, "no one has the right to use this to achieve selfish political objectives."

LEMON: Ivan, let's talk more about the black boxes. Because Ukraine Security Council -- security service, I should say released video of what they claim is an intercepted phone conversation between Donetsk people's Republic terrorists discussing that MH-17 black boxes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Ivan, there is also video from Reuters which we have been showing which is thought to be one of the black boxes being carried from the crash site. Do we know if that's actually one of the black boxes? And what does this phone conversation mean?

WATSON: We can't confirm the authenticity about whether or not that's one of the actual black boxes in that video. The Ukraine intelligence services have released a number of recorded phone conversations that are purportedly conversations between separatists and, they claim in some cases, conversations with their said to be Russian handlers. We cannot identify and confirm whether or not those conversations are, in fact, those things.

But what they say are that there are a series of conversations talking about bringing in surface-to-air missile systems into this region about the immediate after math of what's believed to be the shooting down of flight Malaysian air 17.

And then, as we have just heard purportedly attempts to try to secure the black boxes and presumably get them away from the crash site into the hands of the separatists. Again, we can't confirm this. This is part of the case that the Ukrainian government is making accusing the separatists of shooting down this airliner and accusing Russia of backing them. Those are claims denied by the separatists and denied by Russia as well. This is part of the fierce information war that has been waged between the separatists, the Russian supporters and the Ukrainian government. The U.S. government coming down very firmly on the side of the Ukrainian government in this dispute saying that, yes, we believe that surface to air missiles were fired from this region to bring down Malaysian air Flight 17. They have even announced the name of the missile system saying it's an SA-11 Buk surface-to-air missile system according to the U.S. embassy in Kiev -- Don.

LEMON: Ivan Watson. Ivan, thank you very much. Appreciate that.

We want to turn now to the other big story of the day. And that is the deadliest day yet in Gaza. Martin Savidge live for us in Jerusalem.

Martin, the brutal battle between Israel and Hamas militants in Gaza sites, deadliest day on Sunday for both sides. Also Sunday, Hamas is claiming that they captured an Israeli soldier during an early morning operation. What do you know?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

Well, if that's true, it's a definitely a significant development in a day that's already had no shortage of terrible developments.

We should point out the Israeli military has not confirmed nor denied the report that Hamas has captured one of their soldiers. Hamas released what it said was the identity and the I.D. number of the soldier. That doesn't necessarily mean it's proof. But it is interesting.

And also, Hamas said the soldier was captured in the northeastern part of Gaza which is the area that had seen increased military activity by the Israelis. This news comes at what's already been a very difficult day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE (voice-over): A massive black cloud marks Gaza's deadliest day. Health officials report dozens and dozens of Palestinians killed and hundreds wounded. While Israel's military reported its highest number of casualties in a single day in years. With more than a dozen soldiers killed, battling greater than expected opposition.

Most of the civilians (INAUDIBLE) neighborhood in northeast Gaza which has been under heavy fire from the Israeli artillery, tanks and aircraft. Hamas' one television broadcast images said to be in from the neighborhood showing bodies lying in the streets. Ambulance services were unable to respond claiming danger was too great.

Panicked residents seen fleeing, as explosions echoed off buildings. Israeli military says the neighborhood has been a center of terrorist activity for launching against Israel, as well as home to a hub of tunnels through which Hamas moves supplies and militants underground.

Meanwhile, hospital officials in Gaza report they are overwhelmed with wounded and almost out of supplies.

The international Red Cross was able to negotiate a temporary cease- fire to allow for the dead and wounded to be collected and for civilians to evacuate. But not long after that cease-fire began it was broken by more fighting with both sides blaming the other.

In an interview with Wolf Blitzer, Israel's prime minister defended his country's military operation.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: I mean, we didn't seek this escalation. Hamas forced it on us. They started rocketing our cities, steadily increasing the fire. I called for de-escalation, they refused.

SAVIDGE: Later in the day, Israeli leaflets were reported falling on other Gaza neighborhoods farther to the north warning residents to leave. A clear indication Gaza may have more violent days to come.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: Israel is reporting now that the total death toll for soldiers stands at 15 in Gaza. Medical officials say 425 Palestinians have been killed. The U.N. says 70 percent of them are believed to be civilians -- Don.

LEMON: Martin Savidge in Jerusalem.

Martin, thank you. We'll get back to you in just a little bit on the show.

We want to break down the big international stories with us is CNN's Fareed Zakaria. He is the host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" right here on CNN and he joins me right now.

Fareed, we have some breaking news that I want to share with you and our viewers. New comments from Vladimir Putin. I want to take a listen to what he says about the reaction to this incident.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): However, no one should have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives. Such events should not divide but unite people. It is necessary that all the people who are responsible for the situation in the region would direct responsibility to their own people and to the peoples of those countries whose representatives have been victims of this disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He's also urging full cooperation with the investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PUTIN (through translator): It is absolutely necessary that a team of experts under supervision of ICAO, the competent international commission, would be conducting work on the site. We must do everything to ensure that are their work has full and absolute security, ensure necessary humanitarian corridors are provided.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So this may be the most that he said on this particular situation, Fareed. What's your expert opinion on what he says here?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: Well, I think that Putin's strategy from the start of this crisis has been to say one thing and do another. You remember when he annexed Crimea. He claimed the Russian government had nothing to do with it. These were just loyal patriotic people in Crimea --

LEMON: The evidence shows, right?

ZAKARIA: And all the evidence shows these guys had Russian army uniforms of a kind with markings taken off. They had various kinds of equipment that came from Russia. So as far as I can tell, this is more about the kind of alternate universe of events that Russia has created for its own people.

Remember, Russian media are listening to a completely different set of facts here. They believe that the Ukrainian government probably shot down this plane. They have heard stories about how the Ukrainian government was trying to aim at Vladimir Putin's plane and missed and by accidentally shot down this jet liner.

So, in that alternate reality Putin now steps in and says, I'm urging everyone to cooperate.

LEMON: Do you believe him when he says that?

ZAKARIA: No. Because there is no evidence, you know, and we have heard from our reporters on the ground, that the pro-Russian separatists are providing access to the site. There is no evidence that they are providing access, most importantly, to the bodies of these people. There are 198 bodies that are stuck in refrigerated containers on trains. And it isn't yet clear whether these pro- Russian separatists will let them get to the families.

LEMON: That's my next question to you. So then, what can the international community do about this to open at least urge cooperation as he is saying? They have these bodies and they get the investigation under way.

ZAKARIA: I think there is really one point of focus here and it is Putin. Because, look, it is a complicated situation. But nobody has more power on the ground than Putin. Remember, the Ukrainian government doesn't control this territory where the crash is. That's the problem. This is controlled by pro-Russian separatists. We know that Putin has control. If not control, major influence. He's got to get these people to allow international investigators in to get the bodies back mostly to the Dutch. There is no evidence on the ground for what Putin is saying. So you're hearing good rhetoric. The problem is it's not being matched by actions on the ground.

LEMON: Let's turn now to Gaza and Israel. Because Hamas is claiming that they captured an Israeli soldier today. Is this a game changer, a turning point in the conflict?

ZAKARIA: No. The Israeli army will be very disciplined as they always are. They will not pay much attention to that. They will prosecute the kind of campaign that they have planned on prosecuting. And after the campaign, they will figure out prisoner exchanges and things like that. This is what they have done in the past. The fact that there is one Israeli captured, they will not let that hold the mission hostage.

LEMON: We have heard and seen several reports where when there were, you know, air raids on Gaza that Israelis were cheering, right, on the hillside. And then also today, where gunfire and cheers erupted in Gaza as apparent celebration for the soldier being captured.

I want you to take a look at this and explain to us, why are they celebrating the capture of a soldier?

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

LEMON: Why they are celebrating?

ZAKARIA: They are celebrating because for the most part, this is an asymmetrical contest. It's very lop-sided as we just heard. There are probably under 20 Israelis who have died and 500 Palestinians, perhaps 3,000 injured. So this is one piece of victory that they can point to. Maybe they think that as a result of it, the Israelis will negotiate. And a lot of Palestinian prisoners would be let out. I think of it, it's just they are grasping for something which they can claim as a kind of victory.

LEMON: Fareed Zakaria, thank you. Stay with me, Fareed. When we come right back, I want to talk you about John Kerry's mission to Egypt. Will it work?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.

Washington putting pressure on Moscow to aid in the Flight 17 investigation. And they warn Russia will face consequences if hostile conditions in Ukraine don't improve.

CNN's Erin McPike live for us in Washington tonight.

So Erin, what more is the United States doing to help Ukraine recover from this crash and ongoing crisis?

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN GENERAL ASSIGNMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, first and foremost, the U.S. is contributing resources to the search and recovery for the crash just as it did in the ongoing search for MH-370 for several months ago.

Now, to that end, two FBI officials arrived in Kiev, Ukraine today. Both the forensics expert and a general investigator. They will join the international inv investigative team along with some Dutch and Malaysian officials who will be inspecting the crime site once they finally get access. Although, as we have been reporting, that is proving to be difficult.

So for now, they will be working from the U.S. embassy in Kiev and working under the direction of the Ukrainian. Their first order of business is to determine exactly what made the plane go down.

The U.S. also separately sent an investigator from the national transportation safety board, and that official arrived yesterday.

Now, on top of all of it, there is the issue of how to respond to Russia particularly now that top U.S. officials say the intelligence subject that Russia's almost certainly assisted the separatists in each in Ukraine at some point in the process that enabled them to fire the missile at the plane.

So listen here to senator Dianne Feinstein. She chairs that intelligence committee. She put even more pressure on Russian president, Vladimir Putin, to explain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I think the nexus between Russia and the separatists have been established very clearly. So the issue is, where is Putin? And I would say, Putin, you have to man up. you should talk to the world. You should say, if this was a mistake, which I hope it was, say it. Even if it was a mistake, it is a horrendous mistake to make. And I think it points out the futility of what's happening in the Ukraine because there will be repercussions from this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCPIKE: Don, already, we are hearing from some members of Congress who want to introduce legislation in the next week, calling for even steeper sanctions against Russia. Now, of course, also, President Obama has said he plans to reach out to other world leaders and it is going to try to get greater support from European leaders to clamp down even harder on Russia -- Don.

LEMON: Erin McPike, in Washington. Erin, thank you very much for the worldwide outrage focused on the Flight 17 crash site.

Will we ever find out what happened and who is to blame?

Joining me now is ambassador R. James Woolsey, former director of central intelligence, CNN military analyst Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, and back with me, CNN's Fareed Zakaria.

I want to all of you to listen to the Secretary of State today on "STATE OF THE UNION" talking about the investigation. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Today, we have reports of drunken separatists piling the remains of people into trucks in an un-ceremony fashion, actually removing them from the location. They are interfering with the evidence in the location. They have removed, we understand, some airplane parts. It is critical that this is a very, very critical moment for Russia to step up publically and join in the effort in order to make sure there is a full-fledged investigation. We want the facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: This is going to be tough. Fareed, to you first. The crash site still unsecured. People can't drive in it. But you can just walk around, we are told by our folks on the scene there. Malaysian investigators have arrived. They are waiting for permission to get to the site. What exactly needs to be done to get this to move along faster?

ZAKARIA: The most important thing is that this area needs to be taken away from the pro-Russian separatists. It needs to be placed under international supervision, international control. Eventually, naturally, you should actually go back to the Ukraine government's control. But right now, what you need is a kind of international safe zone.

The thing to remember, Don, is that we have all seen enough police who-dun-its to know. The people who tamper with a crime scene, they are the ones who are guilty. They are the ones who were doing it because they know that there is evidence out there that could incriminate them.

And so, the fact that you have this pro-Russian separatists doing stuff, not letting investigators in, moving bodies around, moving parts around. It's all deeply, deeply damning.

LEMON: James, how long is this going to take, do you believe, to do this? As we look at this video, there was video that released today by Reuters. It appears to show the flight data recorder is being carried from the field by pro-Russian rebels. No way to confirm that it is the man that is holding this if hat that it is, indeed, the black box. But how long will all of this take? And will they hand this over to the proper authorities?

AMB. R. JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE DIRECTOR: Quite possibly. But frankly, I don't think it matters. Putin will do his best to make everything look as if it's not Russia's fault and that he doesn't need to do anything. It's quite clear, really, what happened, which was that the separatists who are Russian-backed tried to shoot down or thought they were shooting down a transport, as they have before. They have shot down about 12 planes in the course in the last couple of months. And instead they go a different aircraft and killed nearly 300 people, a terrible tragedy.

But I don't think there is a great deal of uncertainty about what's transpired. The key issue ought to be how we can bring economic leverage to bear on Russia. And to get a shift in behavior away from Putin's desire, continuing desire to dominate ever increasing parts of central and eastern Europe.

LEMON: Colonel, I want to use the words of the Australian leader today, Tony Abbott. He says quote "Russia can't wash its hands of this." But will world leaders step up to take any real actions against Putin, do you believe?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I don't know if the world leaders will. But if there has to be real evidence that Putin's hands are on this. I mean, we -- I think we know what happened. And we know that his fingerprints are on this. It is inconceivable that the Russian separatists shot this aircraft down without Russian assistance. It was either training or was it direct involvement. But you can't run the system by just taking it out into a field and turning it on. Someone had to train these people who to do it. Did not trained well to use the system because, obviously, they didn't use all the tools they had. So that will -- the world will be looking for proof of that before they can do anything.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate it. Stand by. We appreciate you coming in.

Up next, a U.N. Security Council meeting tonight as the death toll mounts from exploding violence between Israel and Hamas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.

The United Nations Security Council in emergency session tonight over the violence between Israel and Gaza.

I'm join now by senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth.

Richard, we understand that Israeli's ambassador to the U.N. denying report now that Israel -- Hamas captured an Israeli soldier.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. An emergency meeting here on the Middle East tonight, Sunday night, here in New York. Ambassadors filing in late on the weekend. And the subject, the Gaza offensive.

While the meeting is still going on, the Israeli ambassador spoke outside the meeting and was asked by a reporter about the alleged kidnapping report. And he said, quote, "there was no kidnapped Israeli soldier. And those rumors are untrue." That's the latest on that story.

Meanwhile, the meeting on Gaza continues. But there are some frustration from some ambassadors that no significant action either could be accomplished or is planned. The Palestinians furious demanding on the biggest death toll day, they say, in Gaza, where can they get justice. The Palestinian envoy said, while Israel said we tried three different cease-fires. Gaza, keeps -- people in Gaza and Hamas keep lobbing in rockets -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Richard Roth, thank you very much at the U.N. We'll get back with Richard in a little bit.

Back with me now, though, is ambassador Jim Woolsey, Colonel Rick Francona and Fareed Zakaria.

First to you, James. What do you make of the denial of the Israeli soldier?

WOOLSEY: It's strange that it would have circulated as widely as it did all day and not be the case. I hope that's true that they did not capture an Israeli soldier. Maybe they captured him and he escaped. Who knows? But it is kind an interesting odd sequence in the news cycle.

LEMON: Colonel?

FRANCONA: Well, other news outlets had reported the soldier's name and the serial number. So obviously, they have an I.D. card. Now, we have seen this played out in the past. In Iraq, insurgents often would say we have captured an American, show an I.D., shows a set of dog tags but they could never show the actual soldier. So, the Hamas is going to have to show some proof that they actually have this guy. So, I would expect to see a video if they actually did.

LEMON: Are you surprise bid the denial at all?

ZAKARIA: No. I mean, you know, the Palestinians make claims that don't prove to always be true. This is not unusual.

LEMON: Because that was the first thing I asked you about the soldier if it was a game changer when you came on earlier. And if he's not, then you know, that's completely different.

FRANCONA: It's easily disproved. Why would they lie about it. It's kind of confusing.

LEMON: Yes.

Fareed, the U.N. is estimating 70 percent of the Palestinians killed are in Gaza. They are civilians. Can the international community do anything to protect innocent civilians in this situation?

ZAKARIA: It's very tough for two reasons. One as the Israeli government points out Hamas is not particularly concerned that they locate weapons caches, even missile launchers, rocket launchers close to civilians within civilian compounds. Because part of what they are trying to do is trigger an Israeli reaction which will end up killing civilians.

But there is another piece to it. Gaza is the most densely populated place in the planet. So these people are all huddled together. And it just points to the overall futility here which is that you've got four million Palestinians who are neither ever going to become citizens because the Israelis don't want that, nor right now seem to have any prospect of getting their own state. And that this is producing essentially a kind of situation which is a series of explosions waiting to happen. And if there isn't a peace process, if there isn't some effort to try to resolve this and move toward a two- state solution, you've got a situation that's going to explode from time to time.

LEMON: I'm going to ask you this question. But as I'm thinking about it's like a beauty pageant question. You think about world peace, right? But it's very serious. Can you -- what will it take for Israelis and Palestinians? Can they ever live together in peace? I'm asking you to solve world peace here. But what can -- and what can be done, I should say, to stop the fighting for good?

ZAKARIA: Of course, they can live together. The Israelis -- I mean, as the former ambassador to Israel, Martin Endo, once with said they are all families. They are essentially the same people at some very deep level. They have lived together in the course of time.

Palestinians and Israelis, on the day to day basis, look at the Israeli Arabs, 20 percent of Israel is essentially Palestinians who live there. What needs to happen is somehow you just have to get past this, you know, this, the obstacle to get into the solution that everybody understands is going to be the solution.

You know, there is a saying, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Here we know what the end of the tunnel looks like. There is just no tunnel. We all see light at the end.

LEMON: Ambassador?

WOOLSEY: The Israel is one-sixth Arab, largely Muslim. And those Israeli-Arabs have representatives in the (INAUDIBLE). They have Supreme Court justice. They had a cabinet member for a time. They have newspapers and nobody -- none of the worry that they will go home at night, and have the door kicked down and get killed.

If the Palestinians and particularly Hamas would treat Israelis as well as Israelis treat Israeli-Arabs, then you might have some chance for peace. But as long as the Palestinians and particularly Hamas, Hezbollah and the others that have gotten into the business of trying to kill as many Israelis as possible, if they don't temper that, there will never be peace.

LEMON: All right. Ambassador Woolsey, Fareed Zakaria, thank you very much. Appreciate your expertise. Colonel Francona, stay with me. We have much more to talk about.

Up next, I'm going to speak with family members of some of the people who were aboard Flight 17.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: These last few days, heartbreaking for the families and friends of those lost on Flight 17. Cor Pan was on board with his girlfriend. They owned a flower shop in the Netherlands and were on their way to a week's vacation. Cor post add photo of the Malaysian airlines jut on facebook shortly before taking off saying quote "if it should disappear this is what it looks like," apparently a reference to Malaysia's flight 370 which is still missing.

Cor's brother, Dennis Shielder (ph), joins me by phone tonight.

Dennis, thank you. I'm sorry for your loss. How are you?

DENNIS SHIELDER (ph), BROTHER OF CRASH VICTIM (via phone): I'm -- right now.

LEMON: How is your mother holding up?

SHIELDER (ph): I'm sorry?

LEMON: How is your mother holding up?

SHIELDER (ph): She lost her husband one year ago. I lost my dad one year ago and now my brother. You can imagine how terrible that is.

LEMON: I honestly can't even imagine. My heard breaks for you. And I'm sure everyone who is watching as well. Your brother was an avid poster on facebook. He was excited for his vacation to Bali, I would imagine, with his girlfriend. I would imagine that, you know, owning a flower shop, business, lots of work. So they were probably looking forward to getting away. You spoke with him the other before he boarded the plane. And he famously posted the picture that everyone is talking about.

SHIELDER (ph): Yes. It was -- that was my brother. He was joking about the other airplane that was missing, you know. That was my brother. He was joking about it. Now it's real.

LEMON: Have you been -- have you heard anything about your brother and when you guys might be able to bring him home?

SHIELDER (ph): Yes. We have contact with a team and everything. But we don't know anything about that yet.

LEMON: So you don't know. So you're just sort of in limbo now. And waiting for service s services here.

SHIELDER (ph): Yes.

LEMON: You know, we are still gathering information on what happened on Thursday. What questions do you want answered about what happened?

SHIELDER (ph): I have so many questions. Nobody can answer that.

LEMON: Nobody can answer them right now?

SHIELDER (ph): No.

LEMON: You know, it appears that this is going to be the loss of your brother and so many others as a result of another country's civil war, is there anything that you want to say to the international community to help you and families like yours out? SHIELDER (ph): I'm sorry, what did you say? I didn't hear you.

LEMON: Yes. The loss of your brother and the others on the plane is most likely the result of a civil war. Is there anything you want to say to the international community to help?

SHIELDER (ph): No. We are waiting. Waiting. We are waiting.

LEMON: On a personal note, what would you like people to know about your brother?

SHIELDER (ph): He was the most lovely brother and his girlfriend also. The most lovely girl in the world. Now they are never coming back.

LEMON: Dennis, thank you.

SHIELDER (ph): You're welcome.

LEMON: Thank you so much. Our hearts go out for you.

Really, it's tough. And it is tough to try to conduct the interviews with people who have just lost their families.

Anyway, I will bring another person on. His name is Harun Kaylore. His nephews were on Flight 17. He joins me by phone in Amsterdam.

Thank you. How are you doing?

HARUN KAYLORE, NEPHEWS DIED IN PLANE CRASH (via phone): We're holding up, don. Thanks for having us and bringing tribute to the legacy of my nephews.

LEMON: Yes. You know, as I was saying to the viewers it's so hard to do these interviews. I And can't imagine the family members. I know that you guys agree to come on. But why -- how do you guys even do it?

KAYLORE: Well, I'm doing it. I may be a little bit more detached and lose than my sister and my mother. But I think primarily I'm doing it because I'd like to share the legacy of my two nephews and, you know, share with the world what they meant to us. And hopefully honor them in some way. And I really appreciate you talking to me and listening to their life story.

LEMON: Indeed. It can be a tribute. But again, when your heart is breaking sometimes you can't find words. I appreciate you coming on and paying tribute. It just seems really hard.

Let's talk about your nephews. Ashaka was 19. 10-year-old Miguel. They were traveling to Bali, as I understand, to visit their grandmother. I mean, this must be a nightmare for, really, for you and your family. How is everyone dealing with it? I imagine people are coping quite differently individually.

KAYLORE: You're right. Everybody is coping differently. Their other surviving brother, the middle child, is 16. Of course, I mean outwardly, he's very brave are, as is my sister and my mother. But inwardly and occasionally. It comes in waves. One minute they are completely distraught and they are, you know, unconsolable. And the other minute they're just smiling and reminiscing and talking about, you know, the fun things that the boys did and the good things and the fun times, the memories.

LEMON: Yes. You were a father figure to the boys. What were they like?

KAYLORE: They were great. And I'm not just saying that because they are a loved one. But they were great in school. They had good grades. They worked hard. They were honest. They were just fun to be around. They were such a blessing to my sister. She's a single mom having been separated the last four years. And they were a joy to her. And really the reason for her being in the last four years.

LEMON: You flew to Amsterdam when you heard the news to attend the meetings of the families and the victims. Do you have much information? Do they have much information to give you?

KAYLORE: Yesterday the two officers of the Dutch police, the forensic agency or unit, they conducted a lengthy five-hour interview with my sister and my mother just to obtain information about the boys and what clothes they were wearing and their personal belongings and birthmarks.

Today, on Monday at 2:00, the government is organizing a meeting of all the victims' families, a closed meeting I understand. But as far as information about the remains, about the repatriation of possible remains. Everything is pretty blurry and status quo. There is really nothing tangible that we have been given so far.

LEMON: I think that you would probably want answer bus most of all you want your family members home so you can properly and respectfully honor them.

KAYLORE: Yes. Precisely. We want closure. As devastating as the, appearance has been, you would like to have something to put into a grave. Something that you can possibly even touch. And that's been my sister's biggest wish to have some remains or possibly the bodies intact to come home for her to have a last look at. Or to honor them and put them in a proper burial grave and respect them.

LEMON: Harun, thank you.

KAYLORE: Thank you so much, Don. I appreciate it.

LEMON: All right.

Coming up, Flight 17's crash are site is not only the world's biggest crime scene. It is in the middle of a war zone making this investigation almost unbelievably complicated. More on that next.

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LEMON: Welcome back here.

The latest transportation minister says an international team is being with prevented from entering the crash site and says, officials are concerned that the site has been severely compromised.

Joining me now to talk about this, David Soucie, CNN's safety analyst and author of "why planes crash," Mary Schiavo, former inspector general of department of transportation. She is now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents, and Floyd Wisener, he is a principle in Wisener law firm in Chicago.

Mr. Wisener, I understand that you have a personal connection with one of the people I just spoke with who lost two of his loved ones, his brother and sister-in-law on this plane.

FLOYD WISENER, WISENER LAW FIRM: That's right. Actually his nephews, Harun Kaylore is a friend of ours.

LEMON: And hearing him speak about it, I said I just can't imagine that he can even move or get out of bed right now. And having, you know, represented family members, how do they gather such strength at times like this?

WISENER: You know, you've got me. I have been doing this for a couple of decades and sat across kitchen tables talking to moms, dads and spouses. And I can't do it without choking up. I was watching you, Don. And I was amazed that you were able to get through the interview. It's tough.

LEMON: Yes. I didn't really know -- I mean, what do you say to someone like that.

WISENER: What do you say?

LEMON: And Mary, you know, Being in the situation like that you have to interview family members. That's part p of what you did.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: That's right.

LEMON: Tell us about them and what they deal with. Five hours, I understand they have to spend with investigators to talk the about identifying their loved ones.

SCHIAVO: Right. Well, over the years I have come to realize they want four things. They want accountability. They want the wrong doers brought to justice. They want change. They don't want things to just go on as they were. They want this to be a line in the sand. And something happens so this doesn't happen to anybody else. They want the possessions back from the crash site because everything their loved ones had with them when they perished becomes very important, that sacred. And they want them back.

And so, this is terrible what's going on there. And it's really significant to them. And finally, the fourth thing, is they want to talk about their loved ones. And so, often I just let them talk. And they tell me lots of amazing and interesting things about their loved ones. And that seems to be the four themes I have noticed.

LEMON: Thank you guys for being so respectful of that. I appreciate that.

And remember, we want to honor those people as well. We want to find out what happened. But it's important to honor the victims of this tragedy.

And speaking of the victims, the pro-Russian rebels, David, they are taking away bodies and they are supposedly putting them on these refrigerated train cars. What's the standard procedure when something like this happens?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: With processing, what's most important is to maintain dignity with the bodies. And maintain who it is, where it was found, where the body is going and documenting everything about it. And I certainly don't see that going on here. I just really don't see it happening.

LEMON: You don't?

SOUCIE: The bodies are being taken away. We have some counts now as to how many bodies have taken away and where they are taking them. At least they are in refrigerated train cars. And I think at this point, they are realizing the importance of the dignity.

LEMON: Let's talk about the evidence at the scene because we saw the Reuters video. And again, we don't know if it is the supposed black box. As you know, black boxes are red or orange and they are holding them, you know, they are carrying it in the field, what appears to look like the recorder.

But what's the procedure? What's going on here?

SOUCIE: Well, this is what you don't do. First of all, in an accident scene is pick something up and carry it around with you.

LEMON: You don't.

SOUCIE: First thing you have to preserve its location. Identify where it was found. Because that can give you clues as to how the aircraft came apart, where the missile hit the aircraft and how it proceed from there. But to carry it now, it should be being documented, it should be being registered as a controlled part. Because what's important here is to be able, especially if this turns into the war crime that will have to be prosecuted, the chain of custody of all these equipments is going to be extremely important as we try to prove this and put pressure on Putin and the others to start doing the right things in this investigation.

LEMON: Floyd, how will all of this affect not only the investigation but any legal action families might need to take?

WISENER: Well, there will be legal action. And one will be trying to bring the perpetrators of this crime to justice. And that's going to be a political issue. I see it as outside the legal realm. There may be (INAUDIBLE) with international court of justice. But it will be difficult. It is really going to be political.

But the second is going to be obtaining fair compensation for the families. And that's where Malaysia air, I believe, is responsible. Under the Montreal convention which governs Malaysia air's liability to the passengers, Malaysia air is going to be liable to pay damages to the passengers unless Malaysia air can prove that it took all necessary measures to avoid the loss.

I don't think Malaysia air can do that. Because it was traveling this route when it knew or should have known the route was risky. So Malaysia air is going to be on the hook for paying very substantial damages to the passengers.

LEMON: For a second time.

All right, everyone, stick around. Washington says all of the evidence points to a Russian made surface-to-air missile fired from rebel territory. When we come right back, will Russia pay a price?

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LEMON: Ukrainian government and rebels are trading accusations of blame for the downing of Malaysian airlines Flight 17. Meantime, the rebels retain control of the crash site.

Back now with my panel of experts. Mary Schiavo, David Soucie and also joining us from Chicago is Floyd Wisener.

So listen, Mary, let's talk about the treaties that govern how these disasters should be handled. Can you talk about what happens here?

SCHIAVO: Sure. While the main treaty that we have been talking about here is the Montreal treaty. And it has provision in it that for there is one provision where you have nearly automatic aim, it is called special driving rights. It is worth about $175,000 U.S. But beyond that the airline liable for the total amount of damages under that treaty as Floyd said and unless they can prove they took all reasonable measures to prevent it. And I don't think they can either.

LEMON: OK.

SCHIAVO: And the treaty doesn't have a lot of escape hatches like some other countries' laws do.

LEMON: All right. Thank you very much. Everyone stand by.