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Armed Rebels Hinder Crash Investigation; Hamas: We Have an Israeli Soldier; How to Repair U.S./Russia Relations; MH-17 Victims' Bodies Collected; Death Toll Rises in Gaza

Aired July 20, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Actually, if the Israelis could be successful and get rid of Hamas and replace it with a more moderate organization, or someone could actually represent the will of the Palestinian people -- and I don't think Hamas does that. You got to get this radical organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel, get rid of them and then maybe.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: We have to hope, for both sides.

Colonel Rick Francona, Bob Baer -- thanks very much.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM begins right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome everyone, 7:00 here on the East Coast. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you from New York this evening.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto joining you from Washington.

HARLOW: Armed pro-Russian rebels are complicating, really complicating efforts to investigate the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. The rebels still control the crash area along the Russia/Ukraine border and their presence is slowing the investigation.

One of the biggest questions that investigators still can't seem to answer, where are those so-called black box data recorders? This video that was apparently shot on Friday but distributed today by Reuters appears to show one of the flight recorders being carried from a field by pro-Russian rebels. But there's really no way for us to confirm what exactly he is holding.

Last hour, we spoke with Michael Bociurkiw, he is the spokesperson for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. They have been on the ground there throughout, spent a lot of time at the crash site. So we asked him do they have any idea where these black boxes might be? Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, SPOKESPERSON, ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE (via telephone): We do not. We will declare the black boxes found or located when we actually we see them. That is our function -- that is (inaudible) mission. But we had intended to ask questions about the black boxes to folks in control on the ground there at the crash site, and there was no one produced who could answer in a credible way.

But I know we are hearing these reports of black boxes found, but really, until they actually are seen by us or in our own hands, then we can declare them found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We're going talk now with our guest, CNN political analyst, Josh Rogin, a national security correspondent for "The Daily Beast"; former FAA safety inspector and CNN safety analyst, David Soucie; and CNN aviation analyst Miles O'Brien.

Miles, let's just look at this -- this sort of sad list of things that happened since this plane's gone down. The black boxes looked to have disappeared from the crash site. We don't know who has them right now, probably the pro-Russian rebels. The wreckage has been picked over a thousand times by a thousand people under no sort of direction, even the bodies being argued over.

Is it even possible at this point to get a reliable investigation done under those circumstances?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: You know, it's important to remember that investigations transcend way beyond the wreckage field. An important question, important group of people to talk to are the Ukrainian authorities -- why wasn't the airspace closed off completely over Ukraine? What about the rebels themselves? If they were, in fact, firing surface-to-air missile and it brought down four aircraft, why weren't they issuing warnings to civilian aircraft to not fly over this particular area?

I'd like to hear what the security officer, the security office that Malaysia Airlines has to say about what intelligence they knew and what information they had about what was going on in Ukraine and why they authorized an aircraft to fly over a war zone. And then, of course, there's questions from Moscow on how these surface-to-air missile went across the border into the hands of irregulars who don't have command and control training.

So this is an investigation that transcends far beyond black boxes and bent aluminum. And so I think there's a lot that needs to be done elsewhere.

SCIUTTO: No question. Josh, before we even get to the question of sanctions, of punishing Russia, getting the international community to work together, you know, the international community's immediate first demand is just access to that site, in a reasonable order. The number of countries you have involved, the 12 countries who lost nationals on that plane, the U.S., European countries -- is that enough pressure together, enough critical mass to get Vladimir Putin to move on this?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, what's clear is that Vladimir Putin has an interest and believes it's in Russia's interest to muddy up the evidence and to destroy or control as much of the evidence on the ground as possible before the international inspectors can really do their jobs. So the question is what leverage do we have on him? And it doesn't matter if it's two countries or 20 countries, there's very little that the international community can do in the short term to force Vladimir Putin to do something that he doesn't want to do.

So we're likely to see increased calls for him to do so, some naming and shaming of the people who are directly involved in the moving and obstruction of this -- of the evidence in this investigation. And so far, Vladimir Putin has not shown that he is susceptible to such pressure. We can keep ramping up that pressure, maybe it will work. We will have to wait and see.

SCIUTTO: Poppy, it's amazing just to imagine this is where we are in this investigation three days after the plane went down.

HARLOW: Yes -- and just no precedent for something like this in the past. I want to get to David Soucie, FAA safety investigator. This is in your past, and you have this experience with dealing with investigation, not exactly like this one because as I said, no precedent. They were talking about what political pressure can be put on Russia to call for changes here.

What about regulatory changes that need to happen in terms of the international governing body, Miles brought up why were they allowed to fly over war zones? Should there really be a thousand-foot differential that well, it is not safe to fly at 32,000 feet but it is at 33,000? I mean it just seems like this begs change.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: It really does. This whole system, the International Civil Aviation Organization was conceived of and developed back in the 40s and 50s for technology that was there at that time, for communications. You know, the communications systems now have improved. If I want to send a message to everybody in the international community, I can do that, through the information system. All of that's available. It's digital. It comes right to you.

But the problem is the flaw in the evaluation of the risk. That's what was missing. Now, there's no accountability for that at this point. You know, the ICAO doesn't have enforcement capability. They don't know what -- what has to happen. They can't tell people, you have to do this or have to do that.

What they can do is say we can all together establish standards and those standards are required if you're going to be part of the organization.

HARLOW: Yes. So to you, Miles, as an aviation expert, also a pilot yourself, is this the game changer that is going to force that change, because you've also got commercial airline operations that think about safety first, yes, but they also have to think about what it costs. You deviate far from a route it affects the amount of fuel you need, the number of passengers sometimes that you can have. Does this ignite that change?

O'BRIEN: I sure hope so. You know, I did a back of the napkin calculation on what that little bend in the route would have cost any airline, flying a 777. It would have been about $1,000 in fuel costs -- $1,000 that's $3 per person. I saw today, it was really good to see the chairman and chief executive officer of Emirates Airlines, which is the largest international player in the world on passenger count, calling for the airlines to get together and try to figure this out for themselves.

That is a good sign because frankly, waiting for the United Nations and ICAO to do something, I'm afraid we will be waiting too long.

HARLOW: You know Jim, that's an interesting point, right? We've seen -- when government or Washington fails to take action, you have seen business leaders sometimes stepping up and saying, we're going to have to do it ourselves or community leaders. Maybe it's the airlines at this point that have to do something.

SCIUTTO: Maybe at this point. But I got to ask you a question, David. A lot of our viewers right now, they are sitting in airports, they might be on their way to Europe or coming back from Europe -- from a purely selfish perspective, I got a flight to Europe next week. Is this something people should be concerned about? Should they be reconsidering flights that go over or even close to this war zone or other war zones where it's known that these weapons systems are -- Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan?

SOUCIE: It's up to the travelers to manage their own risks as well. You know, the airlines can't manage every risk and remember, to me, airlines are safe, safer and safest. And we're not talking about an unsafe situation, at least in my estimation, but each person's level of safety is their level of safety. So, there is a place where it has to be drawn.

To me, it's a safe thing. I do a lot of investigating before I get on an airplane. I found out what airplane it is, what model airplane, what airline, what the airline history is -- all of that's available through various websites. Faa.gov has its Flight Track, Flight Aware -- there's many of them out there.

HARLOW: I just think, Jim, you know, it's incredible to think that people do have to be thinking about that in the wake of this. It is astonishing.

Thank you for the expertise, guys -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. For our sake, for fliers' sake, we need regulators to sit down at a table and make a real judgment about this going forward so people can make responsible decisions.

We are going to take a turn now, because there is news on CNN from the other conflict we are covering, major story. The Palestinian government in Gaza, said Israeli military scrambling just a couple of hours ago with the startling claim that an Israeli soldier is now a prisoner. We are still not able to independently confirm that claim and the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, have not made a comment, other than they are looking into it. Many other recent claims from the armed wing of Hamas have proven though to be accurate. This reported capture happened on the same day that both sides of the conflict endured a heavy death toll -- in fact, the heaviest so far in this conflict. 13 Israeli soldiers today, 87 Palestinians killed, just on Sunday, in cross-border rocket attacks and the air strikes.

We want to go to Gaza City now live, where it's just after 2:00 in the morning. We have our own Karl Penhaul there. He has been there throughout, you know, in very dangerous conditions.

Karl, if this claim proves to be true and Hamas has indeed captured an Israeli soldier, how different will the situation be there in Gaza when the sun comes up? Do you expect, you know, a more forthright Israeli advance, more bombing, are we going to see more action?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jim, I think first of all, what we've got to do is really drill down these claims. We have really got to get at the bottom of this. We've got to get -- try and get some independent confirmation. We've got to try and get some reaction from the Israeli military.

But certainly the al-Qassam brigade, that's the military wing of Hamas say that they captured an Israeli soldier across in northeastern Gaza Sunday morning. So they have had him now, according to their own statements for more than 12 hours. This could be a game changer.

Remember, this is not a confrontation between two large conventional armies. This is asymmetric warfare. This is urban guerilla warfare and the kind of tactics that we're seeing, al Qassam and Hamas using this time around, much more sophisticated, much more developed, much more brazen than they were doing in the conflicts back in 2012 and back in 2009. They have stepped up their game.

And if it proves to be true that they have captured an Israeli soldier, that, in guerilla terms, will be a massive gain for Hamas. They will hope to turn that into leverage -- both military leverage to try and get Israel to back off areas where they think this Israeli soldier may be being held prisoner; they may be able to leverage it into political gains as well.

Think back, 2006, when Gaza militants captured the soldier Gilad Shalit. It took five years -- they brokered a deal there to get him out that led to the release of more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well Karl, you mentioned it's an urban combat zone. One fact of that is that the militants there hide behind, you know, residential areas but also, the Palestinian people there take the brunt of some of the suffering. I know you have been looking into that. What have you been finding?

PENHAUL: Certainly the claim of the Israeli military is that Hamas is using the civilians as human shields. In this kind of urban warfare, this densely populated area is the kind of area -- this is the jungle, this is -- this is Hamas' jungle. It's a built up area where they operate, but yes, civilians bearing an enormous brunt, an enormous impact. Just take a look at what happened today after a long night of Israeli bombardments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENHAUL: Fleeing for their lives, few belongings, just the clothes on their backs. As they go, Israeli bombs blast their neighborhood. This man says he had to abandon his own mother.

Since first light, thousands of people have been streaming down El Muktar Street. This is one of the roads that the Israelis in a pamphlet drop told civilians they could transit safely along without fear of being bombed. But as they walk, we are hearing explosions all around.

Israeli tanks, artillery and planes pounded eastern Gaza throughout the night but Hamas militants were fighting back.

A human tide just trying to cling to life on foot, in cars, on donkey carts -- any way, just out.

"They are just hitting us, hitting and hitting," he says.

And when they leave, where do they come to? Well, one of the United Nations' schools that has been opened to shelter that displaced people. I just talked to a United Nations' official, he has no time to speak on camera, but he said this is a critical situation. Overflowing -- but a safe haven for now at least.

At Gaza's main hospital, no more space for the wounded, no choice except transfer the bleeding and the dying to other clinics. Others may still be lying in the combat zone.

NASSAR AL TATAR (ph), RESIDENT: Many people are still underground. You see, those people, we couldn't arrive those people to extract them. Surely, from those people are dead people, injured people and those who might die if we didn't something very urgent.

PENHAUL: For those who didn't make it, a resting place on the blood- soaked floor of the morgue.

No need to understand Arabic to understand this man's pain. He says he saw a missile slam into his brother and mother -- no time for a full autopsy. No time except to pronounce time of death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Thanks to our Karl Penhaul who is right --

(CROSSTALK)

PENHAUL: Things are a lot (inaudible) over that neighborhood of eastern Gaza tonight, but there is evidence that hand-to-hand combat may be going on. We've seen tracer fire come in and out of that neighborhood and along over there, over the horizon on eastern Gaza, there are huge fireballs going into the air periodically, some sign that the combat has shifted to that area -- Jim. SCIUTTO: We have seen even behind you some of those fire balls light up the sky as you've been speaking. Thanks very much to our Karl Penhaul, who is right the middle of the bloodshed in Gaza.

HARLOW: Absolutely. Thanks to Karl, his entire team, all our teams over there right now.

Also this, just ahead, how will the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 impact the aviation industry globally, especially the pilots and the crews? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: 298 people were on board Flight 17 bound from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Among those, 15 crew members who had likely flown this region -- in this region before, perhaps even this exact route. So is it left to the airlines and the pilots to be aware of everything happening on the ground thousands of feet below them?

We are going to talk about that with an expert, our CNN aviation analyst also a commercial pilot, Les Abend, who flies a 777 like this plane.

This got us thinking and we've been talking about this now in recent days, how much control does a pilot have over the exact route that they fly, the exact altitude? I know that's determined for them, but when you get in the cockpit can you say no, this doesn't feel safe?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: We can say no on the ground, for that matter, if we have a thunderstorm situation, if we want more fuel, we can always -- there's no real ramifications for an airline pilot to just say "no". When we get airborne, we have absolute control over the situation.

In this particular circumstance, if the intelligence was there such that there was a clear and imminent danger, there's no way any of us would have departed on that particular route -- absolutely not.

HARLOW: But do you not think that there was a pretty clear danger, even though this flight was technically flying at a high enough altitude -- 33,000 feet, where it was supposed to be safe to fly in that region? This is an intense conflict zone, it was known by security intelligence officials in countries across the globe that they had, indeed, these surface-to-air missiles. They were flying at 33,000 feet but at 32,000 feet they were notified that it wasn't safe.

ABEND: I think the mentality is the last threat that we had. And the last threat, I can go back to 2003 in Baghdad International Airport where a DHL airplane was hit by a man pad. And I don't want to speak directly for my colleagues but in my mind that is the mentality, is if we have a surface-to-air missile that is shoulder launched, it doesn't have the capability of getting that high. None of us, I think would have conceived that that kind of devastation from a surface-to-air missile --

HARLOW: this information then should be going from the intelligence community do you think to the airline regulators, the airlines, the pilots themselves so that you would know --

ABEND: All of it?

HARLOW: -- that surface-to-air missiles are there. I mean that's the question, right?

ABEND: All of it.

HARLOW: Think about how much you have to think about to fly a plane. Now you have to think about this, too.

ABEND: Well, after September 11th, that was the big game changer, too. Now we have to think about certain aspects of how to react to a terrorism situation on board. So, that's all part of our training. Evading missiles, not part of our training.

HARLOW: Yes.

ABEND: You know, that's just something that's not in our vocabulary at this point in time, especially those of us in U.S. carriers. I mean I fly with colleagues that were shot at in the Gulf War and they are very aware of -- they would be more aware of as I am as a civilian-based, trained pilot what I'm seeing. But that still being said -- they wouldn't have been able to do anything to evade it.

HARLOW: Do you want to see the regulatory system changed now in terms of regulating global aviation? Do you want to see changes made in the wake of this?

ABEND: You know, I mean, any time we have an accident, unfortunately, we still use the adage, tombstone technology, and now, we have got a new threat that we have got to deal with. Now, we've lost lives and, yes, indeed, of course, there's something that now we have to consider in our own flying at this point.

HARLOW: I appreciate the expertise. Thank you so much.

All right. Just ahead here in the NEWSROOM, Secretary of State John Kerry said that the plane disaster is a quote, "moment of truth for Russian president Vladimir Putin". Will this incident though push U.S./Russian relations back to the Cold War era levels? Has it already? We're going to discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

We have come a long way since the days when President Obama promised a reset of relations with Russia. Conflicts between the U.S. and Moscow have been growing for months. Russia giving shelter to Edward Snowden; Putin's annexation of Crimea; and the ongoing conflict along Ukraine's eastern border -- just to name a few -- and now, this crash with 298 dead.

Joining me now to discuss the state of U.S. relations with Russia is David Gergen. He is a former White House advisor to four presidents and now a senior political analyst at CNN. David -- so good to have you on. Thank you for taking the time.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you, Jim. Good to talk to you.

SCIUTTO: So David, there has been criticism of the Obama administration's handling of this. Throughout, senator John McCain used the word "cowardly" this weekend to describe the Obama administration's response. Do you think Obama's policy regarding Russia has been a failure? And in light of this latest -- I don't even want to say game changer, it's a world changer - with this crash of MH-17 what does the President have to do now?

GERGEN: A lot of questions there, Jim, but to unpack it I do think that relations with the Soviet Union or Russia now have hit the lowest point since the Cold War. This grotesque shooting down of the airplane has clearly put enormous strains on the relationship.

I think, first, the President and his team deserve some credit for not rushing in and condemning the Russians at all points. I think they will go to gather the evidence the way they have, gradually build up the case against them to ensure that the world knows just who is responsible, that Russian fingerprints are all over this missile I think has been very, very important and wise to do. I was in the Reagan administration back in the early 80s and frankly, we rushed it a little bit and we had a really good case but the first hours to condemn them on so many fronts, when the real facts came out it hurt us a little bit. I think they had been wise to do that.

Having said that, it is imperative that this administration that this President now step up and tell us where he wants to go to round up the allies. You know, it's just -- I think it's like very surprising, dismaying, that at a moment when the Israelis are in Gaza, when we have the shoot-down, when so much is in flux in the Middle East, we have a president who is sending signals by spending four hours today on the golf course.

It just seems to me that it is important for him now to bear down, to engage and to show leadership. We have to come up with a policy that basically, first and foremost, tells Mr. Putin, "Mr. Putin, send those bodies back." They need to get the bodies back to the people - their loved ones, back in the Netherlands and elsewhere, which is so important. "Mr. Putin, get your people out of Ukraine. Get your equipment out of the Ukraine." That's at a minimum what ought to be demanded of the Russians and we need the Germans and others standing up with us, the British will be there, but we got to make sure the Germans are there, to make sure that there are consequences for this horrible and I think inhumane catastrophe occurring, 300 people shot out of the sky.

SCIUTTO: But let's talk about consequences then. Because to this point, all the things on the table, it's about sanctioning individual Russians, a couple companies here and there, you know, going after trade, I mean, this seems to put this into an entirely different category when you have 298 people falling out of the sky in an explosion with surface-to-air missile, it doesn't seem that surgical, sectoral, economic sanctions match what's being called a crime by world leaders. So, what is the effective response? You say step up, President Obama. How so? What is - you have advised -

GERGEN: I think you have to do things on two tracks. The near-term things, get those bodies back, get the Russians out and get the equipment out of the Ukraine. Beyond that, Jim, what's very important here now is to embrace a long-term strategy.

Bob Gates, the former defense secretary, has been arguing this point for some time. You can't do everything you want to do in the short term. We don't have the capacity to do that without getting into conflict, that we do not want to do, but we do have the capacity to put the screws on Russia. They understand, look, they are going to be strong disincentives, you want to misbehave, be aggressive, show all this nationalism, it may be popular back home but it is going to cost you and cost you and cost you internationally and we need allies to do that, it has not helped we have had this brouhaha with Angela Merkel over spying on her and her team.

You know, we need to get that calmed down and this is really important now that the world understands, John Kerry said today on television, we are engaged all over the world. Yes, indeed, we are engaged all over the world, but what we need is to lead all over the world.

SCIUTTO: Senator Dianne Feinstein said to our own Candy Crowley today, when she asked her are we returning to a cold war here, she said in simple terms, yes we are. But beyond the rhetorical, what does that mean for someone who grew up during the cold war, you experience it certainly. We got Russia sending spies back to Cuba, we're two nuclear armed powers. Does this mean a true return to the cold war, where it is U.S. and Russia, where lives are at risk, our militaries, two of the largest in the world, are facing each other off? Are we talking about that as a new reality?

GERGEN: No, I don't think we are at that. In the cold war, we live with an existential threat that there might be a nuclear exchange that would incinerate most of mankind. That threat is no longer there. Thank goodness. But these are serious issues in which you can destabilize Europe, you can destabilize eastern Europe, in particular, where people live under fear and that there is the - the White House aides say the bear is loose - they're talking about President Obama, a strange phrase, but in truth, the bear that's loose is Putin and we have to get him back in his cage so that he doesn't further destabilize the world.

The guy's a thug, let's face it. And what we need allies to do that, Jim, and we can't do that, you know, sitting back and sort of just talking. We have got to get them together. You know, Secretary Kerry is going to go to the Middle East now. I think he needs to spend a little time in Europe, too. This is really, really important. Our alliances are not as strong as they should be.

SCIUTTO: The world calling for U.S. leadership. Thanks very much, David Gergen. I want you to stay in there, it's a busy news day, as you know, I like to get your insight on the situation in the Middle East. That's going to come right after this break.

GERGEN: Thank you. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You see these painful pictures of these Palestinian children and these refugees, thousands of them fleeing their homes. It's a horrendous sight what's going in right now, if you look at the images, heart wrenching. What goes through your mind when you see that?

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: I'm very sad. When I see that I'm very sad. We are sad for every civilian casualty. They are not intended.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: We have this just in, at the U.N. security council will be holding an emergency session tonight, starting at 9:30 Eastern Time to discuss the situation in Gaza and the deadliest day so far, the conflict. Eighty seven Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks, at least 60 in one assault alone. Thirteen Israeli soldiers dead.

While the conflict has resulted in hundreds of civilian deaths in Gaza, the U.S. is standing by Israel's right to defend itself from terrorists. David Gergen rejoins me now, adviser to four presidents, now CNN analyst.

David, I wonder if you're seeing or will soon see a divergence in U.S. and Israeli tolerance for casualties on the ground. The U.S. has been publicly very supportive up to this point, but Israeli leaders starting to talk about demilitarizing Hamas and Gaza. That signals a long ground operation there and I just wonder if you see the U.S. supporting that as these casualties mount.

GERGEN: That's a very interesting point, Jim, and I think there's a chance that could happen. The administration deserves support for the way they have stood up for Israel, championing Israel's right to fire back, in effect, both Secretary Kerry and the president have done a good job of that. But there - I think it's also been wise for them to see if they can't tamp this down and bring it to an end in the coming week. It's going to be very important, I think, to have this not stretch on and on.

Eventually, America's patience can be tested, especially if you get horrible bodies piling up. I can remember going back again to the Reagan period, how he eventually had to call the Israeli prime minister when they were going into Beirut and call it off and it made a big difference. And I - we may be nearing that point. I hope not. I hope that the Israelis see and Hamas sees that this is leading to an endless number of unnecessary deaths.

SCIUTTO: Well, U.S. secretary of state John Kerry heading to Egypt tomorrow for the talks on the crisis. Before I get to a question to you, today he was caught off guard on an open mic while speaking to Fox News saying these comments about Israel, have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's a hell of a pinpoint operation. It's a hell of a pinpoint operation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, it's escalating significantly, just underscores the need for a cease-fire.

KERRY: We have got to get over there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Tank you, John. I think, John, we should go tonight, crazy to sit around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That is Secretary Kerry speaking to one of his advisers, criticizing what Israel has called a pinpoint operation. As Secretary Kerry goes to the region, does that undermine his ability to be an honest broker in these talks? How will he be perceived by the Israelis?

GERGEN: I think it's pretty minor, probably thankful he didn't say something more provocative than he did. He seemed to be scoffing a little bit at the Israeli claim that this was pinpoint. But the other issue this raises is OK, he's going to go to the Middle East. I think he should go to the Middle East but what he's going there to do. This is a continuing question about the administration. It's not quite clear what they're trying to accomplish and whether they have the means to accomplish what they set out to do. You know, they can make good statements but they got to come through with actions that bring about results. They're increasingly, Jim, if go through this question, we can be engaged, but if we are not leading effectively, we lose some of our punch. We lose some of our authority.

Let me just make one more point, if I may, Jim, about the president. I again go back to the Reagan period because Reagan was on his ranch when the KAO was shot down by Soviets in 1983. I was in the White House at the time. This was an airliner that got shot down out of the skies and we rushed in to condemn the Russians and the president stayed on his ranch for a couple of days, but you know what he saw very quickly that he needed to be back in the office.

He was on a 25-day vacation and he came back to the White House. He went on television to talk to the country about what was happening, help people understand it and grab hold of the situation. That's what I mean by leadership. And it does seem to me that at this time when there's so much turmoil in the world, we not only have the shootdown of this plane and what's going on in Gaza, we do have these children still at our borders. We have, you know, the Middle East in flames.

It seems to me that the president would be well advised now to cut back on some of these fund-raisers, the golf, get back in the White House, bring in heavyweights from past administrations to try to figure out what to do - America's role should be in the world and then go on television and again to lead us as a country about how are we going to deal with these crises? How do we lead in this very, very turbulent world? SCIUTTO: David Gergen, thanks very much. And Poppy, just speaking about the president there, I'm sure he did not think he was going to have this many international crises to deal with in this second term when he wanted to focus on his domestic agenda. Who would have predicted?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, absolutely not. I mean, this has frankly taken the border crisis completely off the table in terms of the main headlines right now, something that just days ago was at the forefront, that the president was dealing with. David Gergen, fascinating conversation between the two of you. Thank you very much for coming in.

Meantime, of course, we are covering the tragic disaster with Malaysia flight 17. The country, Malaysia, reeling from a second disaster in just a matter of months. Just ahead, how people in that country are trying to seek solace in this time of absolute tragedy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: I want to give you a quick update now on the crash investigation of Malaysia Airlines flight 17, or what is passing for an investigation so far. Pro-Russian rebels have moved at least 192 victims' bodies to refrigerated cars three days after the crash, I should note. So far, the remains of more than 230 of the 298 people on board the plane have been recovered.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's government has released another audio recording related to the search for flight 17's black boxes. One voice allegedly a rebel commander is heard telling a rebel fighter to find the plane's black boxes quickly because Moscow is very interested in them. Have a listen.

(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

SCIUTTO: And one more note on those black boxes, a European official who was at the crash scene today tells CNN he is aware of reports that the black boxes have been found, but he says he could not confirm those claims or, indeed, where those black boxes are.

HARLOW: It is a huge question and also Malaysians just across the country are reeling first from the flight of MH-370 back at the beginning of March and now the loss of another one of their airliners and loved ones, Malaysia Airlines 17 shot down brutally over Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 innocent souls on board.

Our Andrew Stevens is in Kuala Lumpur and he is explaining how this dual tragedy is taking a huge emotional toll on this country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREW STEVENS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a neighborhood mosque, they pray for the soul of the captain of flight MH-17. Juan Amman was a regular here and Friday prayers allow this close-knit community a moment to remember. This group, this country is in shock, grappling with the appalling fact of a second aviation catastrophe in less than five months.

AHMAD LOFTI, MH17 PILOT'S IMAM (through translator): This is a test from god for us and for all Malaysians, the imam of the mosque tells me. I advise everyone to keep calm and face the test with patience.

STEVENS: Grief-stricken families of victims of flight MH-17 gathered at Kuala Lumpur's international airport in the day after the jet was shot down. Candle lit vigils have been held in the city and ordinary Malaysians cope with the shock of what's happening, partly by turning to their faith.

IBRAHIM SUFFIAN, MALAYSIAN PAINTER: I think this event has brought people sometimes closer to religion because there are so many questions they cannot answer and they seek solace in faith.

STEVENS: Ibrahim Suffian monitors Malaysia's pulse through his own polling company.

SUFFIAN: What we are seeing is essentially a very traditional conservative society that's very steeped in religion looking for answers for questions that are beyond their control. I think we see people turning to faith, turning to sorrow and I think turning to discussions among their friends.

STEVENS (on camera): But not anger.

SUFFIAN: Not anger.

STEVENS (voice-over): Malaysians if anything seemed resigned to their loss.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just say we are lucky. We are lucky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel it's very unfair. Why it happen to Malaysian Airlines? There are so many airlines in the world.

STEVENS: But acceptance is not stopping a growing outpouring of sympathy for the families of the victims.

(on camera): The enduring mystery of flight 370 is still raw in the minds of so many Malaysians but now it's been overlaid by this new tragedy. Five months ago, these condolence walls were common right across the city and now, in a bitter sense of deja vu, they are starting to reappear.

Andrew Stevens, CNN, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Our thanks to Andrew Stevens for that, he is there covering flight 370 and now there again, covering flight 17. Unimaginable.

Well, a big question is whether Malaysia, the Malaysian government or anyone can really handle another enormous aviation investigation right now. They are still searching for the disappeared flight 370. Our panel is going to weigh in on that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: You have to remember the victims and all of the 298 innocent people dead because a jet liner got shot out of the sky over a war zone, really, on Thursday. Just over four months this happened after Malaysia Airlines plane disappeared over the southern Indian Ocean. This is yet another plane, same airline, getting shot right out of the sky. It is a terrible coincidence, too much to comprehend, especially the victims' families.

I want to talk about this and the ensuing investigation and what likely needs to change in the industry overall. Let's bring in former FAA safety inspector and CNN safety analyst, David Soucie and also CNN aviation analyst, Miles O'Brien. Thank you both for being here.

David, let me start with you. You think that this begs overall change in terms of communication of risk globally to airlines. How does that happen?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Information sharing has always been a problem within the aviation community. There's a lot of barriers to it. Some of them are just intellectual property barriers. We don't want our airline to know what the other airline knows because it's competitive. There's things like that. But this is much different than that.

HARLOW: Right.

SOUCIE: This has nothing to do with competition. It has to do with regulatory authority and where it goes and who has authority to do what. It's become a little blurred, honestly. It's become a little blurred. What's the difference between a standard and the implementation of that standard. The FAA deals with this a lot, too, with having had the responsibility to promote aviation and to promote aviation safety. Kind of contradictory.

HARLOW: So there have been a ban in flying anywhere near this region?

SOUCIE: In retrospect, yes, absolutely. Now, knowing - if anyone had known which they did know there was a risk -

HARLOW: They knew there were these weapons.

SOUCIE: And there had been an aircraft shot down just prior to this. Someone should have taken action.

HARLOW: Miles, to you. You say in the immediacy of this, I mean, these bodies, these victims, have gotten no decency in the way that we have been seeing that they have been handled on the ground. The victims' families have no idea when they will get to put their loved ones to rest, and bury them. In terms of getting them answers through an investigation, you think there has to be a reliable organization country that takes control of this. Who should it be and do you think they are going to be able to do that?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, you know, it is sickening to think about all of this, but it is important that an investigation begin even with these open questions, even with the fact that the bodies are still lying in the field, the wreckage is being tampered with. There's a lot of questions to be asked in a lot of different places.

Malaysia, for example. What about the airline policy, the security office of Malaysia Airlines, what did they inform crews and flight dispatchers about flying through that particular part of the world. Those are important questions. In Kiev itself, government officials, why didn't they close off the air space completely? 32,000 feet, it's a completely arbitrary number. In 1960, the Russians shot down a U-2 spy plane carrying Gary Powers. He was at 65,000 feet. What makes 32,000 safe?

So there's a lot of questions that can be asked outside of the debris field which and it should begin I think the Dutch should lead the investigation.

HARLOW: At the same time, you have also said when you look long-term after this investigation is over, but what do you think is the most significant change is that can be made to the aviation industry overall so that these victims are remembered and positive change happens in their memory?

O'BRIEN: The expression it's a morbid expression, that the rules in aviation are written in blood. Or a tombstone mentality, if you like. What happens is people die and things get safer. If these souls perish and the industry doesn't get safer, they have died somewhat in vain. That can't happen.

The industry needs to take initiative itself if the regulatory bodies will not. The head of Emirates Airlines, CEO of that entity, wants to bring the world's airlines together, have a conference and try to come up with their own ways of sharing information and doing the job themselves if they have to. I hope that they move forward in this direction because in the absence of any credible international policing or regulatory authority, they have to do it themselves.

HARLOW: Yes. I think that is a smart idea. We will see what change may happen, Miles, David, thank you for your expertise this evening. Thank you all for joining us.