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At This Hour

Exclusive Interview with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko; Prsident Obama Gives Remarks on the Middle East Conflict, MH-17

Aired July 21, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The President of the United States momentarily will be walking out to the microphones on the South Lawn of the White House to make a statement on the situation in Ukraine, a situation that has clearly undermined U.S.-Russian relationship.

The relationship, which was pretty bad to begin with, now it is deteriorating by the day.

Peter Beinart is watching what is going on. He's a CNN political commentator, knows a lot about this subject.

Peter, as we await the president, what would you want him to say, right now?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that the momentum is going in the right direction in terms of pressure on Russia to open up that site. There have been very strong statements from some of the European leaders in the last day or so, so I would imagine Obama would reiterate that.

But, beyond that, I think that this is a moment of some leverage for the U.S. and western Europe in general to try to push Russia to distance themselves from those separatists and accept the sovereignty of Kiev over all of Ukraine.

I would imagine we would hear both of those themes.

BLITZER: But the chances of Vladimir Putin accepting the sovereignty of -- the Ukrainian sovereignty over all of Ukraine, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, what are those chances? They don't seem very realistic right now, do they?

BEINART: I agree. They are not that high. But you know you do -- things have changed. You now have the Europeans talking about tougher sanctions.

The statement from the British prime minister was particularly strong. He said, even though there's some consequences to the U.K. because of Russia's financial interest in London that this was something they still had to be prepared to do.

So, look, I agree. Putin is a very tough customer. He will probably try to wait this out, hope there's some ambiguity about what ultimately happens.

But if there's ever going to be a moment of some leverage, especially given that the rebels do seem to be somewhat weak on the ground, as Andrew Kuchins was saying, I think this is the best moment to try to use that leverage.

BLITZER: Stand by for a moment. "Spider" Marks is still with us

General Marks, Israelis have told me in the last few days, they have some sophisticated equipment on El Al jetliners that could have avoided a takedown like this. They're developing new technology even as we speak right now.

How effective would this antimissile technology on commercial airliners be if a missile were launched from the ground going up to 30.000 or 35,000 feet?

MAJOR GENERAL JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The technology does exist. It exists on a whole host of military aircraft. What the Israelis have done clearly makes sense for their conditions, surrounded by enemies and routinely trying to conduct routine and what I would call commercial and civil activities. So they have made the decision because it makes sense for them.

Clearly what this indicates is that when you are traveling over in extremis territory there clearly is this possibility. And could this technology work? It sure could.

But the cost of embedding that in a whole host of commercial aircraft really is one that would need to be made based on the flight path and the patterns that the aircraft is trying to take.

BLITZER: But the technology is clearly there, so it's only a matter of money. I assume a lot of passenger would feel a lot more comfortable knowing that this kind of antimissile system was at the bottom of these planes.

MARKS: Well, yes. I think, at the end of the day, the conversation would be, do you feel comfortable with this? I think the answer might be do we have to travel over these areas where this might take place? That, I think, is really the discussion.

Plus, there are evasive flying tactics that would have to be used that would throw everybody in the back of the aircraft upside down and backwards, but I think they would prefer that than the ultimate outcome that we saw that took place in Ukraine.

So these are clearly decisions that have to be made across the board, but as an intelligence guy, Wolf, I look at what took place in eastern Ukraine and the nature of ungoverned space, and now my question is who has the order of battle on where these tells are located, where these capabilities exist, and have any of these migrated elsewhere into hot spots that exist around the world where we might see something like this again?

BLITZER: General, stand by. Phil Black is our man on eastern Ukraine right now. On the war on the ground right now, does it look, Phil, as if the Ukrainian military really does have the upper hand?

We're having a little trouble, which is totally understandable, with Phil Black. Let me go to Barbara Starr. She's been monitoring the intelligence situation as well. She's at the Pentagon.

Barbara, as we await the president, does it look like the pro- --- the Ukrainian military, the regular Ukrainian military does have the advantage right now, they are really making some significant progress against these pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: It does look like they certainly are trying to make progress. We've seen in the last hours they're making moves to recapture Donetsk, which is one of the hotbeds of this rebel, pro-Russian separatist movement.

So they are working all the time, progress until something like this happens, and then everybody has to basically pause, reevaluate, and try and deal with this situation.

I think what the U.S. is trying to do at this point is tighten up that intelligence case and show that, no matter what the situation is on the ground, the Russians are still very deeply involved.

Wolf?

BLITZER: Barbara, stand by. I want to bring in Christiane Amanpour. She's got an exclusive interview with the Ukrainian president.

Christiane, as we await the president, we're all anxious to hear what the Ukrainian leader has to say.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... and, most particularly, about what is being done to bring the bodies of those victims back to a dignified repatriation and burial, and what about the investigation?

I have an exclusive interview, right now, with the president of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, who has joined us from Kiev, his first interview since this downing of this plane on Thursday.

President Poroshenko, thank you for joining me from Kiev. And if I might begin by asking you, your senior officials are now saying that all the bodies are being brought to the eastern city of Kharkiv on an refrigerated train.

Is that every body or just the ones that have been on the train for the last 24 or so hours?

PRESIDENT PETRO POROSHENKO, UKRAINE: Thank you very much, indeed, Christiane, and really thanks for having the possibility to explain all the situation in Ukraine directly to the viewers of CNN.

First of all, we still missing 16 bodies of the innocent victims of the terrorist attack which happened 96 hours ago in Ukrainian sky, but the rest, from the 298 victims is already in a refrigerator train which was supplied by Ukrainian government, but still blocked in the territory controlled by the separatists.

Given all that, we have new possible time for releasing the refrigerator under the supervision of the inspector of OEC, and this is 7:00 local time, so within 50 minutes we're waiting the possible progress in this situation.

I just want to deliver the information that in Ukraine during the last days happen three, major, international crimes.

Crime number one is the terroristic attack itself, where the terrorists supported by the Russians launch rocket missile, a surface- to-air missile, against the civilian Malaysian plane, which brings 298 victims.

Crime number two, and it is a disaster, the way how the bodies, innocent bodies, including the 80 children were treated. They make -- they take their personal belongings these terrorists, and they treat it very badly. This is barbarian style of doing this with the bodies of victims.

And crime number three, all that they do during this 96 hours, they try to destroy the evidence. This is impossible because we have all the strong evidence by Ukrainian side, by the international community, by the United States, by the countries where civilians have suffered from this terrorist attack, including the Germany, Netherlands, Malaysia, different other countries.

We know exactly the place where SAM were launched. We know exactly the place where it hit the civilian plane, the place where the plane were crashed and all this territory is firmly controlled by Russian- supported terrorists, and all this territory, this is only place where it can be reached, the plane by this type of surface-to-air missile.

And I think we should now speak about --

AMANPOUR: Mr. President?

POROSHENKO: Yes?

AMANPUR: Sorry to interrupt you, but the United States tells CNN that they are investigating the possibility that it was Russian personnel who may have actually been manning this Buk, this SA-11 missile system.

Do you believe that as well? Is that what your intelligence has picked up?

POROSHENKO: We have intercepted phone conversation which we'll make it public by our secret service, and we had a lot of evidence that these people are supported by Russia, trained by Russia, armed by Russia, and most of them and their leaders are Russian citizens. That is for sure.

And we now have an absolutely different situation than before this terroristic attack. The -- all the people in the world should find out their own place. Are they together with the civilized world, which demonstrated the solidarity with the victims, with the country who suffered from this terroristic attack, with Ukraine, or they support the terrorists and this is absolutely impossible to mix.

And I think every country and every person and every leader should find out their own place. Ukraine -- Ukrainian court make a decision to recognize these so-called "Donetsk Republic" and (inaudible) as a terroristic organization. Most of the country who suffered from the terroristic attack doing the same.

I hope that the United States, together with the United States Congress and Senate, make the same decision, to recognize this terrorist as a terroristic organization, that create absolutely new legal framework for those who support it and cooperating with these terrorists.

And I think everything should be transparent and open, but that is the very important gesture of solidarity we're awaiting with the whole world together with the victims.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you to react, because there have been several declarations from Moscow today?

First and foremost, President Putin has been seen online and on-camera saying that he would enable a full investigation, make sure that that was able to take place in the crash site region, and that he would do whatever he could to stop the fighting in that region.

Do you believe that this is President Putin's moment of truth and that he will now do that?

POROSHENKO: Look, I think this is a question for everybody, just not only speak but demonstrate the effectiveness of their own action.

But I can tell you that today I make a decision to declare the zone diameter, 40 kilometers around the place of the terroristic attack and crash of the plane, as a zone free from military operation of Ukrainian army.

We undertake the enormous effort to receive and to deliver to the place where tragedy happened hundreds and hundreds of the international experts of the -- those who will deal with the bodies of the victims.

And unfortunately, until now, we don't have receive any permission to launch the investigation on this place.

And, please, this is absolutely no explanation and no excuse for this way of behavior for these terrorists. And from my point of view, now again, we should be decisive to make a transparent, international investigation.

What I do in the first hour of this catastrophe, I call to the prime minister of Netherlands, prime minister of Malaysia, chancellor of Germany, and all of the leaders of the countries, inviting them for the investigation. We interested in demonstrating the transparency and the openness for this investigation, and today I also make a decision to give permission to my government to appoint Netherlands to lead in this investigation under the umbrella of ECOU and for accelerating (ph) them to send the bodies back, we are ready to provide some investigation procedure on the territory of the netherlands.

We are open for that. And please, this is simply impossible to remove and destroy all the evidence, because all the shrapnel is dispersed on the territory of about 20 square kilometers.

This crime, the international crime, is impossible to destroy. And I think all their efforts, which undertaken by these Russian-support terrorists -- by the way, please, Christiane, don't name these separatists. There is no separatists there. They are terrorists. They are killing the innocent people, and I think that they attempt to destroy the evidence. They are useless (ph).

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, Mr. President, if you would just hold on and just listen to President Obama for a moment and we'll be back.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good morning, everybody.

I want to make a brief statement about the tragedy in Ukraine.

Before I do, though, I want to note that Secretary Kerry has departed for the Middle East. As I've said many times, Israel has a right to defend itself against rocket and tunnel attacks from Hamas.

And as a result of its operations, Israel has already done significant damage to Hamas's terrorist infrastructure in Gaza.

I've also said, however, that we have serious concerns about the rising number of Palestinian civilian deaths and the loss of Israeli lives. And that is why it now has to be our focus and the focus of the international community to bring about a ceasefire that ends the fighting and can stop the deaths of innocent civilians, both in Gaza and in Israel.

So, Secretary Kerry will meet with allies and partners. I have instructed him to push for an immediate cessation of hostilities based on a return to the November 2012 ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

The work will not be easy. Obviously, there are enormous passions involved in this and some very difficult strategic issues involved. Nevertheless, I've asked John to do everything he can to help facilitate a cessation of hostilities. We don't want to see anymore civilians getting killed.

With respect to Ukraine, it's now been four days since Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 was shot down over territory controlled by Russian- backed separatists in Ukraine. Over the last several days, our hearts have been absolutely broken as we've learned more about the extraordinary and -- and beautiful lives that were lost: men, women, and children and infants who were killed so suddenly and so senselessly.

Our thoughts and prayers continue to be with their families around the world who are going through just unimaginable grief. I've had the opportunity to speak to a number of leaders around the world whose citizens were lost on this flight. And all of them remain in a state of shock, but frankly also in a state of outrage.

Our immediate focus is on recovering those who were lost, investigating exactly what happened, and putting forward the facts. We have to make sure that the truth is out and that accountability exists.

Now, international investigators are on the ground. They have been organized. I've sent teams. Other countries have sent teams. They are prepared. They are organized to conduct what should be the kinds of protocols and scouring and collecting of evidence that should follow any international incident like this.

And what they need right now is immediate and full access to the crash site. They need to be able to conduct a prompt and full and unimpeded, as well as transparent investigation. And recovery personnel have to do the solemn and sacred work of recovering the remains of those who were lost.

Now, Ukrainian President Poroshenko has declared a demilitarized zone around the crash site. As I said before, you have international teams already in place prepared to conduct the investigation and recover the remains of those who have been lost. But unfortunately, the Russian-backed separatists who control the area continue to block the investigation.

They have repeatedly prevented international investigators from gaining full access to the wreckage. As investigators approached, they fired their weapons in to the air. The separatists are removing evidence from the crash site. All of which begs the question: What exactly are they trying to hide?

Moreover, these Russian-backed separatists are removing bodies from the crash site, oftentimes without the care that we would normally expect from a tragedy like this. This is an insult to those who've lost loved ones. This is the kind of behavior that has no place in the community of nations.

Now, Russia has extraordinary influence over these separatists. No one denies that. Russia has earned -- urged them on. Russia has trained them. We know that Russia has armed them with military equipment and weapons, including anti-aircraft weapons. Key separatist leaders are Russian citizens.

So, given its direct influence over the separatists, Russia and President Putin in particular has direct responsibility to compel them to cooperate with the investigation. That is the least that they can do.

President Putin says that he supports a full and fair investigation, and I appreciate those words, but they have to be supported by actions.

The burden now is on Russia to insist that the separatists stop tampering with the evidence, grant investigators who are already on the ground immediate, full and unimpeded access to the crash site.

The separatists and the Russian sponsors are responsible for the safety of the investigators doing their work. And along with our allies and partners, we will be working this issue at the United Nations today.

More broadly, as I've said throughout this crisis and the crisis in Ukraine generally, and I've said this directly to President Putin, as well as publicly, my preference continues to be finding a diplomatic resolution within Ukraine. I believe that can still happen. That is my preference today, and it will continue to be my preference.

But if Russia continues to violate Ukraine's sovereignty and to back these separatists, and these separatists become more and more dangerous and now are risks, not simply to the people inside of Ukraine but the broader international community, and Russia will only further isolate itself from the international community, and the costs for Russia's behavior will only continue to increase.

Now's the time for President Putin and Russia to pivot away from the strategy that they've been taking and get serious about trying to resolve hostilities within Ukraine in a way that respects Ukraine's sovereignty and respects the right of the Ukrainian people to make their own decisions about their own lives.

And time is of the essence. Our friends and allies need to be able to recover those who were lost. That's the least we can do. That's the least that decency demands. Families deserve to be able to lay their loved ones to rest with dignity. The world deserves to know exactly what happened, and the people of Ukraine deserve to determine their own future.

Thanks.

(END LIVE FEED)

AMANPOUR: That was President Barack Obama, first saying that he's dispatching Secretary Kerry in search of an immediate cease fire in the Israel-Palestinian war. And also talking about how Russia must be held accountable for what has happened in Eastern Ukraine with the downing of that jet.

And I'm joined again now, exclusive guest, the president of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko.

Mr. President, thank you again. You just heard President Obama and he has very clearly said that Russia must use its influence to make sure that this investigation is allowed to proceed and to make sure that these separatists -- people you call terrorists -- are not allowed to continue their action.

So, first and foremost, let me ask you, what are you looking for from the international community to compel President Putin to do this?

POROSHENKO: So, first of all, we should be -- to demonstrate a strong solidarity and to arrange the pressure for all those who supporting the terroristic who preventing the independent investigation, who -- to stop the people, to take the body of their relatives back, to give them the necessary treatment, burial and everything.

So the every hour of postponing this date can make an absolutely disastrous harm to the -- to the whole situation, position number one.

Position number two, Christiane, I don't see any differences from the tragedy 9/11, from the tragedy of Lockerbie and from the tragedy on gravaba (ph) Ukrainian side -- on Ukrainian sky.

The problem on the following, so every -- at every -- this tragedy, we should demonstrate the same way of reaction. This is a danger for the whole world. This is a danger for the global security.

And this is not just a question -- let's not demonstrate that we are talking about some conflict inside Ukraine. Ukrainian nation now are united. We don't have any conflict inside Ukrainian nation, and this is the -- again, the danger for the global security and the global world should find out a right answer to these challenges. No doubt about that.

AMANPOUR: But, Mr. President, you want --

(CROSSTALK)

POROSHENKO: Every people in the world should feel how danger is it.

AMANPOUR: You're -- you -- I understand what you are saying. I just want to know specifically, because the international community is getting ready potentially to impose more sanctions and world leaders seem to be much more united in speaking with much more unified voice than they may have done in the past.

Are sanctions are going to do it?

Is that what you are looking for?

POROSHENKO: Look, we should use all the methods which are in our hands just to deescalate the situation. If the situation -- if sanction will help that, we should introduce new sanction.

If it's not working, we should maybe ask the United States Congress to present us the status of which -- from this time receive Israel, Japan, South Korea and finishing to Filipino, other United States partners as a major known NATO by. But to help us to solving security problem. We should understand that we should act effectively to stop the danger

for the global security. Ukrainian army do their best. And during their last weeks, we demonstrate a significant progress --shrinking, shortening two times the territory of the antiterroristic operation.

And we are ready and I am, as a president, presenting the peace plan. We declare the unilateral cease-fire for seven days. They continue for the three more days. But every single day of this cease-fire, my country lost from three to 19 soldiers, every day.

We have -- we have more than about 1,000 wounded. And this is a very high price for the -- for solving of the conflict.

But I'm absolutely sure that our actions should be effective and we should be together, using all the opportunities, started from the U.N. Security Council, from the European Union Council, from the global solidarity starting from Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, which both demonstrated today and I think Ukrainian people was never so united as today.

And the global people were never so united as today. And again, every country, including Russia, should find out and make a decision where their -- where their own place in this world, together with the terrorists or together with the civilized world.

AMANPOUR: And Mr. President, what is the situation in the Donetsk region right now, near where the crash site is?

There have been reports of fighting, of confusion as to whether actually there is a Ukrainian government military operation underway there. Some in the government deny it; some say it is a planned counteroffensive.

Can you tell me what is going on right now there militarily?

POROSHENKO: The terrorists attacking my troops and my troops provided anti-terrorist operation. But this morning, I make a decision for the unilateral cease-fire in a diameter of 40 kilometers around zone of the crash, just to provide the necessary condition for the investigation group to work.

And we don't take any precondition for that. And this stop of military operation will last until the international investigation commission will work.

But that's again no reaction from the Russian-backed separatists, even on this proposal. So the -- if it is not working, we will -- we will present other version try to make a pressure, including the military one if is -- if nothing helps.

But now we talk about the deescalation and peace in this zone.